I am looking for a DAC (potentially streamer&DAC) to be paired in a mcintosh system (c1100/611). Its my first foray into digital streaming and I have no need for a CD player.
I see a lot of love for Esoteric, however, most seems to be around their transports? Are they not as renowned for pure digital streaming and/or standalone DACs? I see DCS (for instance) often referenced for standalone DACs - how does Esoteric compare?
yes, absolutely; the SGM Extreme is the perfect streaming server. but it’s also the perfect server for local internal PCIe files, and the perfect server for using an outboard NAS. and i’ve used it all three ways.
over the last 9 months with the Extreme 2 significant things have happened. (1) my ratio of files to streaming listening has gone from 75%/25% to 20%/80%. and (2) my file purchasing has gone from 5-10 a month to zero.....or maybe 1 every couple months. streaming simply delivers on so many levels it checks all my boxes. this direction had not been happening previously with me.....i had been pursuing buying files vigorously. and what i had was not chopped liver, the 2015 SGM server, one of the top choices besides the Extreme.
i don’t want to hold myself up as any expert on DIY computer audio or techie computer stuff. so i all i can do to make my technical case is to encourage anyone to read the reviews and Romaz posts referenced earlier in the thread for those points to be made. what they say is that digital audio is about extreme computing headroom, separating processing needs appropriately, and dealing with EMI/RFI and cooling needs to keep things operating in the proper design envelope. it why the damn thing weighs 90 pounds.
i’ve found that the same bump in performance listening to my files was found at least as much in my streaming. all digital processing makes the same multi-pronged demands of the CPU. the uncompromising design of the Extreme delivers.
what i can speak about with authority is the astonishing sonic performance when i switch from local files to streaming, then to my vinyl or tape and back to digital......the digital holds up completely.
i still like my files; and have favorites i’ll always return to, but the excitement of streaming daily is a huge deal, and the Extreme makes it so inviting.
@mikelavigne Would you still recommend the SGM if one is only streaming? Put another way, no local file playback. I remember you making the same point as the reviewer, far earlier regarding local file playback being superior to streaming.
I ask, because I don't have a reference point. For example, despite the local file playback superiority, streaming via the Taiko SGM Extreme may surpass other options?
I'm looking for a Roon Server (only). Therefore, the question. Thank You!
I think any far ranging roundup would also consider NAIM serious level of engineering there as well and of course a bit of a fetish for robust power supplies
My reference to a Faraday cage was internal to a DAC.. in particular to isolate the FPGA and display/control microprocessors FROM the A part of a DAC....
have a look at the guts of Jim Whites IMO excellent Pandora
@yyzsantabarbara @tomic601 RF is insidious. If we had eyes that revealed the full EM spectrum we would see fire hoses of radiated energy everywhere. I don’t know why DACs are so sensitive to RF noise but as our systems become more transparent, its clear to me that less RF noise impinging on a DAC improves the sound. I can’t delve into a DAC to measure whats going on (and in fact the levels are below test equipment noise floor). What I do is measure is the full spectrum (audio band and RF) coming into and leaving a DAC. My corollary for better sound is less measured RF energy in all cases. So the challenge for audiophiles is to get the RF level down to ambient.
To answer your questions: using optical where possible helps, using battery power helps, using low powered sources reduces their potential RF and that helps. I am all about optical isolation (DX and USB in my case), lifting the digital chain off the AC mains with battery and moving the digital components as far away from the DAC as possible. In the case of using best practices with an RF-STOP faraday cage, you have an equivalent separation of 1000 meters, optical to the DAC and optical to the (distant) network switch. It requires an audiophile to appreciate and understand that it’s a whole chain process ...no single product is a fix. But then the isolation is guaranteed by physics.
Even at the top echelon ( which is ever moving ) a well sorted network and electrical power system in home is essential. ... many things can be done at low/no cost. Which leg of your panel is the audio system on ? What leg are the “ hash and trash “ generation bits on ?
@dmance Would a fibre optic cable from the network switch into the DAC solve the analog noise into the DAC? If so that is a relatively cheap solution. For example Sonore SystemOptique or the more expensive Lumin X1 DAC (
$13K ) with fibre optic input. Both have ROON READY support.
Mike - how can local vs streamed files sound better? How can you sense ’edgyness’ from one vs the other if the bitstream is the same. The MSB Select II supports a bit-perfect test file. Play the test file from SGM Extreme or ’pick any server’ using local or streamed and it will be reported by the MSB as being ’bitperfect’. So the innards of the MSB get all the bits 100%. So its not data corruption; its not jitter ...but the sound is different? Follow the evidence, Mike, it’s all about analog noise. Each server throws off a field of RF energy that gets into the DAC. Via signal, via power or through the air. This is the core issue here.
@dmance
did you read the review that was linked? and also read my comments? my comments referred to that review. they use a totaldac, not an MSB dac.
i made no mention of hearing any edginess from my Extreme/MSB setup.
and if you read that review it explains why local files sound better than streaming files. I’m no techie; I’m just a listener who reports what I hear. and that is what I hear. I don’t get caught up in technical rationalizations contradicting my perceptions.
btw; Emile Bok, the Extreme designer also agrees that local files sound better than streaming. you could contact him and make your case. he is a techie.
and when he visited me last fall we both heard these same things from the Extreme/MSB combination.
@mikelavigne Mike - how can local vs streamed files sound better? How can you sense ’edgyness’ from one vs the other if the bitstream is the same. The MSB Select II supports a bit-perfect test file. Play the test file from SGM Extreme or ’pick any server’ using local or streamed and it will be reported by the MSB as being ’bitperfect’. So the innards of the MSB get all the bits 100%. So its not data corruption; its not jitter ...but the sound is different? Follow the evidence, Mike, it’s all about analog noise. Each server throws off a field of RF energy that gets into the DAC. Via signal, via power or through the air. This is the core issue here.
Audiophiles have to start behaving like Ham Radio operators who know and understand its all about RF noise mitigation that allows them to pick up the voice from distant Australia. You can apply common sense about the physics and technology involved ..and save a ton of money.
One thing to consider is how long you intend to keep a new DAC or DAC/streamer. If I were in the market for a new DAC (and I may be in a year or three), is how future proof it may be. The dCS units and PS Audio DirectStream are upgradable without having to send the unit back to the manufacturer/distributor and the cost is minimal.
If I was searching for a new unit, I would consider the PS Audio DirectStream and the dCS Bartok. YMMV, of course.
nice review! you ought to hear the Extreme with the MSB Select II. pretty awesome.
agree that my local files are better than streaming, but i don’t get any of that streaming edgyness that the review referred to. not sure their network set-up was ideal. i think in a review temporary install you don't quite get the natural sorting out that would otherwise happen.
I have a lowly celeron NUC as my server. Its inside a 90dB RF-STOP isolation chamber with only optical I/O. This means zero RF noise escapes to impinge on my DAC and sounds, IMO, like endgame quality
If you put some stones on your breaker panel you will discover that all the electrical grid of the house is only one integral piece, and that isolating one link from R.F. does not lower so much all the noise floor... This fact is underestimated completely.... And many companies sold some "magical" electronic component to solve this with some ready made solution out of the box...But controlling this noise floor is not the same thing than working only on one link as well electrically isolated as it is....
LOL!!! of course! for every single piece of high end audio gear, there is a much, much, did I say much, much cheaper version that sounds just as good for a fraction of the cost. LOL!!
I have a lowly celeron NUC as my server. Its inside a 90dB RF-STOP isolation chamber with only optical I/O. This means zero RF noise escapes to impinge on my DAC and sounds, IMO, like endgame quality. If we are all pragmatic, we know that the SGM Extreme bitstream is the same as my NUC's. Exactly the same. The SGM is just a very very low RF noise source. All that metal and engineering buries the noise to be highly uncorrelated or at a level below where it matters to the DAC. Yes, you can go in the $GM direction or be objective and focus on RF reduction with a few simple principles to get essentially the same result.
I downloaded the music samples that the reviewer listen to also....I listen from my PC also....
It makes me envious of those who will be able to purchase this 24,000 Euro piece of engineering...
But not too much envious tough, if I compare my listening with his description of the music samples used...
Like I said in another thread almost all S.Q. comes from the implementation and controls of the 4 embeddings of an audio system at whatever price ( 60 % at least )more than from the electronical component "per se".... A consolation for the "poor" audiophile.... :)
The thread is really good, i find quite remarkable replies to my inquiries in this thread, i occasionally also read your earlier posts on the website and relatively reliably they are so attractive that once i start i can't stop myself. Books and Magazines Voucher Codes
This past October I had the Innuos Zenith -- Chord TT2 -- M. Scaler. It was incredibly detailed but found the sound a little thin. Happened upon a Lumin X1 (purchased here) and it literally blew my gourd. Every bit as detailed as the Chord stack but fuller, less fatiguing. Now putting the finishing touches on what I consider to be my endgame 2ch rig built around the X1. I've been at this game a long time (just ask Lalitik), so I don't make this claim lightly, it's really that good.
Just to clarify further, OP is a newbie as far digital / streaming goes. One box solution like DCS Bartok or Lumin X1 or Aurender A30 will allow simple setup. All of the above are loaded with thoughtful features to wet his appetite.
If the goal is to build a SOTA digital setup then something like full stack of MSB Premier or DCS Rossini which runs deep into $30K price range.
You can always go the ‘separates’ route with streamer and DAC which gives the maximum flexibility to pick and choose the best possible components based on features and personal preferences.
Aurender, Innuos and Lumin offers the best stand alone streamers. The latter two gives Roon option in addition to their proprietary apps.
My top 5 DAC’s to consider, EMM Labs DA2, AQUA Formula xHD, Berkeley Reference Series 3, DCS Rossini and Brinkman Nyquist MKII. Cheers!
I might be wrong but I believe ufguy73 was interested in streaming from the internet not from a server since he didn't have CDs to put on one. If you're going the server route then yes it can make a difference but streaming from the internet a server isn't in the equation unless you intend to buy downloaded music or CDs to RIP to it.
Back on topic, I’ll echo @mikelavigne ’s point about pairing the DAC with a top-notch streamer and, I would add, a signal rejuvenator /re-clocker.
I recently auditioned top-class DACs (see here). The improvement brought upon by the streamer (i.e. "source" signal) & the Timing device that followed was not subtle! In fact, one could tone down the DAC budget to make room for a re-clocker & server!
not yet - I am getting some other components installed and want to break those in a bit before demoing some of the DACs that have interested me - definitely going to need something going in though
I have only posted once on Audiogon, so this will be #2. I have become increasingly more interested in DACs as of late, so I got even more curious when I found this thread. Until about page 6, where it turned into a stream of consciousness post about the meaning of sound.
Bo1972, please take the advice of the OP and find a new place to convince the world of your theories. You sound extremely passionate, and you speak a lot about listening, but you don't seem to actually be listening. At least not to the nice people on here whose thread you have hijacked.
Back to the thread... I am also looking for a new DAC and possibly a streamer. I haven't seen anyone recommend the Bel Canto Black EX line or the Audio Mojo Mystique V3, which seem to be really great products. Very different in philosophy from one another, but worth checking out. The DCS stuff has always been outside my price bracket, but I am sure it is a level of sound most would aspire to owning. The best DAC I have heard was a Chord DAVE at a Canjam Meet hooked up to a Reference Wells Audio Headtrip. The sound was extraordinary. But, I have nothing else to compare against. I am mostly a personal head-fi listener. I do not have a 2 channel set up. I use Roon Labs, a Vinshine R2R Reference DAC and a Pathos Aurium. Yet, I can't shake the feeling that how I get my music from source to my amp and headphones makes the most difference.
Anyways, good luck with your search and I will keep reading where this all shakes out. Perhaps it will lead me down a new road for my digital listening pleasure.
Life exist without your dac and server....I own " emotions" in a low cost modified audio system... People need to think and generally dont need to buy anything more than what they already owns...The truth in your message is polluted by your feverish partiality.... My best...
The subjective review of the Metronome was nice but the measurements were not very impressive. The tube section had excessive noise and harmonic distortion and the solid state was competent but didn’t do any better than a Benchmark DAC3. I guess being able to pick filters would be nice.
I had forgotten about Métronome Technologie’s c/AQWO DAC. Stereophile has it’s review online now.
"My target is always to make people forget that they’re listening to digital files," [Jean Marie] Clauzel told me the morning after the units were installed. "Some digital equipment is so detailed and so cold; it’s not warm enough and not musical enough. We want a very different product, even if it has imperfections. ... I prefer something that may have imperfections, but that excels in quality, musicality, and an analog feel."
Bo - Kindly be respectful of ufguy's request and start your own thread than continue to ranting on this one. Time for this thread to get back to what he inquired about and not your personal agenda
perhaps you should consider starting another thread
Good advice, @ufguy73
As the OP, if you reach out to Audiogon Forum Support and request it, they will (usually) delete posts unrelated to your thread. It will mean your flagging the posts. Do it sequentially, so they see the pattern.
We take care of all our clients, we give them a source of what has no competition at all. We created our own huge benefit from the flaws of others. It is not my responsibility that other audio companies sell sources and DACS who are not able to reveal all aspects of sound. It is that simple!
I will make it more easy for you in 2020. I bought a 13000 euro Sony professional 4K camera. And we will let our clients speak what Tru-Fi did with their system.
What can you win?
Almost all sold audio systems in the world miss different aspects of sound. And yes this can be proven by facts and sound and stage. And no you do not even need a university degree for this :)
We create and reproduce sound by all the different aspects of sound. This gives us access to all aspects of sound. People have no idea that almost all produced audio products can not even reveal all aspects of sound. So it doesn't even matter which trail&error (audio gambling) combination you will choose.
Most people in audio do not even have the guts to face the truth. And the truth is the fact that trail&error has no real foundation at all. It is the main reason why so many people in audio are in a circle. They all hope to find the sound and stage they are looking for.
When you have no idea what the DNA is of every single part in your system you will never understand what it really changed in your system. When I talk these days with audio manufacturers, they all agree that trial&error will never bring anyone to the ultimate sound.
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