Here's the deal in a nutshell.
40 years ago, most people listened to the radio and records on a cheap Soundesign or similar integrated stereo made in Japan that cost maybe a couple hundred dollars max.
It sounded like crap!
MEanwhile people with good taste in music invested somewhat more and got much better sound.
Now, $200 buys a nice portable device and phones that actually sounds really good! Home gear can sound better too, but only for a price. It cost more to produce good sound at a larger scale, like in most any room compared to with headphones. But the $200 mobile/portable rig most people have can actually be quite good, so the difference, if it exists at all is much more marginal and harder to justify.
There you go. That is where we stand today. And the gap between average affordable sound quality and the best possible will likely only continue to close, not widen, over time. |
Mapman, It's hard to believe, but true.
I sell records/CDs 96%/4%. CDs hardly ever sell at all. |
I think most oung people get their music online these days.
Little reason for most to buy CDs anymore.
CDs have always been an inferior product to own in terms of overall utility due to the small packaging. Now, most digital music is had online.
For something to hold and look at as well as listen to, 33 1/3 has always remained the best.
For digital, new music servers and services are starting to add content that helps enrich the digital listening experience over what you get with a CD. I've started using PLEX and like it a lot. Supports high res video and music streams and formats for good sound quality to boot. |
"40 years ago, most people listened to the radio and records on a cheap Soundesign or similar integrated stereo made in Japan that cost maybe a couple hundred dollars max.
It sounded like crap!"
Mapman; I have to disagree with you here. 40 years ago, I remember listening to the music and was totally not concerned at all with the equipment. I thought the music I liked was wonderful and can't remember one time saying to myself that the music sounded like crap because of the equipment.
If the music was good, then it was good and appreciated for what it was. I do believe that sometimes we are so caught up in the equipment that we just forget to listen. I was a violinst (first chair), played sax, oboe, bassoon, etc. and I can tell you that I know how music is supposed to sound. Instruments especially. However, I have no idea what the sound recording engineer actually recorded or how that person intended the recording to sound. So, I am using my judgement in listening to the recordings. But, it would be interesting to have the acutal recording engineer sit in one's home and listen to the playback of their actual recording and see and talk about their reaction. That would be interesting. I have been in live unamplified concerts in large venues in great seats and the music was unfocused, and I couldn't place the performers with my eyes closed. So, live unamplified music can also be the wrong metric. So, my point is that it depends on the intent and ear of the recording engineer, the venue, and most especially, what the listener is actually doing and what they want. You really don't hear younger people complaining much about the sound quality of their equipment or their music. They, like us 40 years ago are simply enjoying their music. However, they have money for beats headphones that don't compare at all to others like grado, etc. at the same price. They wear $150 basketball shoes and have no intention or ability to play basketball. They do it because of peer pressure, and fashion. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, I see advertisements for beats for younger people, but I really don't see advertisements for grado, or other "high end" products trying to attact younger customers. I believe that arogance is one aspect of this industry that pushes younger people away.
enjoy |
I too echo Response34.
On the other hand, if you want to really feel like a duck out of water you've got to check out 1-2-3-4 GO Records (mostly LPs) on 40th Street in Oakland CA, They sell mostly Heavy Metal, Punk, and other genre I'd rather not dis because I've stopped keeping up. They've recently moved to a larger location because their business is growing.
It seems their customers priorities for purchasing vinyl has more to do with supporting the artist because the download industry is what it currently is and because owning the LP is a more tactile fruit of that art. The sound quality is often mentioned but it's not the primary reason for owning the LP.
Those stalwarts of brick and mortar new and used LP sales, Amoeba and Rasputin, are not jumping into this direction with both feet.
The owner of 1-2-3-4 GO suggested some selections an old fud like me might enjoy and I was pleasantly surprised. Not only by the contemporary-ness of the music but that I still had some attitude left in me to enjoy it. As a Draft dodging anarchist I've been back twice, your results may vary! Interestingly, because of this current state of the music industry and its unchecked digititus, many of these contemporary LPs were recorded digitally. I know what your thinking, "this music doesn't need to be recorded well." I'm a working Musician and I say it does qualify for the full treatment.
After listening to the recent testimony by recording artist before Congress about the issues that surround the run away download industry, it seems this is another contributing element to the increase in low quality production and an uncontrollable drain on artist royalties.
So, where are we going?
I feel it's incredibly important that the high end community (analog and digital) make this issue more than reminiscing the way it was because that's just not going to happen. We need to discuss the beginnings of a solution that benefits the artists so they receive their royalties. The producers to get back into the studio environment, and to somehow fairly regulate the distribution of the art.
So, if you must reminisce, reminisce about what our part had to do the resurgence of the LP and every time you told a mass market loved one, "yeah, the difference is amazing!" |
Minor,
My point is that the gap between sound quality achieved by most today is much better than it was back then. The quality or desirability of the music itself is a different thing and not really relevant to the point.
Top notch home audio sound quality has probably improved as well, but I suspect not nearly as much. Therefore, the gap has narrowed between the sound most have and the sound a choice few who care most have. That works against high end audio achieving any higher ground than in the past in that there is probably less to gain, if one cares about sound quality that is.
High end audio is often accused of excess hype and unsubstantiated claims of sound quality. I think that is part of the game that High End Audio must play in order to help justify its existence these days in that there is probably an absolute limit to just how good anything can sound in an objective sense, though the best sound is always harder to achieve on a larger scale ie when larger rooms rooms to fill are involved. |
$150 for great quality shoes or sneakers (regardless of speciality) is not a lot at all and much better and wiser spent money than $15k wire for sure. |
Mapman; I knew what point you were trying to make. I agree with you, however I was simply stating that what i remember 40 years ago was the music, not the sound quality or equipment and the younger people today (most) really are the same as we were then. they don't really care much for expensive equipment or even sound quality (more later), but just the music. Sound quality is really subjective. If one hasn't a clue as to what music or instruments are supposed to sound like, then what they are hearing is the best (to them). Most music for younger people is electronic with drum machines, and other equipment that isn't close to simulating actual instruments. Cymbals don't sound anywhere close to real cymbols. same for other instruments. Therefore, they (the younger people) listening to this type of music are perfectly happy because they have never really heard the real instruments in the first place to determine that it isn't accurate or real. Their reference point is not where ours is now. Also, super compressed electronic MP3 music sounds the same (to me) on an Ipod as on a really expensive system. It is so compressed, that it sound bad to me anywhere. But, to the younger people, that is their music and how it is suppose to sound to them, so they are happy with what they have. So I do believe my point was relevant. Also, to touch on Czarivey's comment. $150 shoes and quality. That is definitely not what I was talking about. I was saying that younger people spend large amounts on shoes (basketball, etc.) and other things that they don't even use for their original purpose just because of fashion and peer pressure, not functionality. They spend $150 on basketball shoes (when they are 5'1" tall and can't and don't play that sport at all just so they can walk on their high school campus sporting the latest Jordan's. Because of peer pressure, fashion (another form of peer pressure) and the industry concentrating solely on the young market, they spend that kind of money easily (or their parents do). My point was why can't certain aspects of the high end industry market to young people in the way that Jordon's do or Beats?
Enjoy |
Dave_72 you already know about expensive mistakes, I have made a few mistakes myself, not anymore. I have a problem giving advice to anyone who has just entered this hobby and what to recommend because it will take a few years of trial and error to get a grip on what sounds good for yourself. It was of little consequence to try different products over time because it was very easy to turn gear over on Audiogon at the time, so very few dollars were lost, I don't think it is that easy now. I agree wholeheartedly. Yeah, I don't mind giving advice, but I always say that "you have to go out and compare and contrast each set of equipment until you find the one that pleases you the most" With that caveat, I don't feel guilty about it. I would hope this avoids the trial and error thing, but maybe not. No, the resale value on this stuff has plummeted from what I see on this site and other sites that make up the used market. The manufacturers price very high which makes it a chore to recoup that money when one would like to sell. If you buy an ultra high end amp for $80k, you're gonna at least lose $20k on it if you sell. And this is stuff that has high resale value and demand such as FM Acoustics and MBL. Either way, that's losing a big chunk of change! |
However, I have no idea what the sound recording engineer actually recorded or how that person intended the recording to sound. So, I am using my judgement in listening to the recordings. But, it would be interesting to have the acutal recording engineer sit in one's home and listen to the playback of their actual recording and see and talk about their reaction. That would be interesting. I have been in live unamplified concerts in large venues in great seats and the music was unfocused, and I couldn't place the performers with my eyes closed. So, live unamplified music can also be the wrong metric. So, my point is that it depends on the intent and ear of the recording engineer, the venue, and most especially, what the listener is actually doing and what they want. Exactly, it's a guessing game. The sound we get out of our systems might be totally opposite of what the engineers and artists wanted. Like you, I go by the sound of real instruments and compare and contrast. Again, like I said in the old post of mine, we're listening to imperfect recordings for the most part, especially, and I hate to say this, rock and pop stuff. And let's not fool ourselves, no matter how much money you throw around, there's no such thing as an absolutely perfect system, imo. You can get pretty close however, at usually quite a chunk of change. However, there are more modest systems out there that can and have slayed the 6 figure "holy grail" rigs. In my opinion, the spending limit on an ultimate state of the art holy grail system (with discounts new or used stuff) should be around $50k, no more no less. Yes, that is crazy in real world terms, but isn't the high end more about aspirations more than reality? lol. |
Minor,
I was listening to a pair of $29 Audio TEchnica headphones today off my standard issue HP computer at work. Source were my lossless FLAC files on my music server at home. The cymbals sounded amazing good even on those, as they do as well at home. The only thing missing was soundstage and imaging, which for sure most people could care less about.
If its true that young people today have no interest in how music sounds, then that does not bode well for high end audio. But I suspect there is more to it than that, that what they have ready access to these days can easily sound pretty good, if they even just care a little.
Neither of my teenagers care a lick about home audio, but are very particular about what earbuds or phones they use. |
It's an interesting paradox that commercialism is generally considered a bad thing for music, yet that is how a musician would get paid for making music.
On the flip side, a true artist and music lover does it because that is what they like to do. They might make some money playing live on the side still, but how many can make a living just being a musician? Not many, ever!
Music/record companies are becoming almost irrelevant these days, except as a way to make money by hyping lowest common denominator pop stars that are more about sex appeal, visuals and pop culture as they are about anything having to do with serious music. |
I think we are too caught up in our ideas of what good sound means and thus what the high end is about. I think audio is being repositioned in the minds of many consumers, especially young people. Its why Apple bought Beats. They see the opportunity in a way other companies don't. Check out vox.com and look for the article on the music industry written in response to an op eds piece in the WSJ by Taylor Swift (yes, that Taylor Swift). I read it today. Embedded in it is a video with Jimmy Iovine and Ed Cue from Apple... Between the lines you can figure out why this deal happened. Its fascinating to me as a marketing guy who started out selling audio 40 years ago. I am not sure the opportunity is truly for a high end user base yet...but most consumer markets segment out ultimately to have a 10-20% component that is premium oriented whether that means luxury,performance etc. Why couldn't that be the NEW Hugh end uuser? Check out the discussion. Its not just about streaming music...there is more there. Apple has lots of consumer analytics data. I think they are looking to disrupt audio more. After all, that's what the iPod did...now maybe they will fix or alter more if what they broke! |
Children are more qualitatively than quantitatively driven. Recognition of quality comes into thinking and evaluation as an individual evolves from child to adult. It is wrong to believe that adulthood is met at a scheduled time threshold like age 21. Some individuals are precocious enough to perceive a qualitative hierarchy early in life and most (Americans, at least) never seem to develop this ability.
All of this leads to the fact that the majority of us just don't comprehend differences in quality. The much heralded "dumbing down" that I see taking place is demonstrated by reality TV, movie quality and theming, rap, and numerous other social indicators. We are devolving through compromised education and over-control of the marketplace and media. As a result, education which used to develop the individual into a fully functioning mature person, now reaches very few effectively. And since an ever fewer number of us can perceive genuine quality any longer, the marketers are taking over and obsoleting the engineers. The product offerings contain less material and more fantasy all the time. We are forsaking substance for appearances as a society and our buying habits are slowly being altered to satisfy ever larger profit margins. This will not end well. The products are ephemera in both utility and durability and the landfills are topping out with this gradue. But we are dumb, fat and happy, fa la la la la la la.
Please see a film called Idiocracy. |
Are we any more dumbed down really these days than say our parents were back in the post war 1950's?.
I agree that we are, but not that its anything new.
The difference is today there are many outlets for one to get information from if one only chooses to find it.
Used to be we were spoon fed whatever gov. and corporations of the day wanted to feed us with little recourse. Now at least there is. My kids for example get it I think and are not dumb.
Flip side is one still has to sort through all the noise to detect the real information. Not always an easy task. |
Listening to music used to be a communal event years ago. A bunch of friends get together, put on an album and then sit there to enjoy it. In this day and age of personal audio, sharing the emotional impact of the music you listen to is next to impossible when wearing a pair Beats headphones. On top of that, the thought of sitting still to do anything today is frowned upon by most. If your not constantly in motion then your considered lazy and not serious. The culture has changed and good sound is more readily available without spending $20k for an amplifier. High end audio has its place but that place is shrinking by the day... |
Kids are distracted by so many things. Give them time and they'll figure out what they're missing.
It took a little while for me, but that ended when I heard my first live jazz show at an excellent intimate venue. While kids may not be interested in jazz much, they'd likely be thrilled by an excellent live show at an intimate dinner n jazz club. It's hard (even for kids) to ignore great sound if the food is good and the talent is amazing. Puts em in their place, if only for a fleeting moment or two. |
Hazyj,
That's true if they can afford it! In this age of student loan debt etc, some won't even be able to afford a home or decent apartment until they're 50 by which time I don't Know how important having a state of the art sound system will be!? I hope I'm wrong but that looks to me to be the way things are trending... Sad |
Hazyj,
That's true if they can afford it! In this age of student loan debt etc, some won't even be able to afford a home or decent apartment until they're 50 by which time I don't Know how important having a state of the art sound system will be!? I hope I'm wrong but that looks to me to be the way things are trending... Sad |
We just mastered an LP for a local band and I don't think anyone in the band was over 25. They wanted to hear the test pressing on our system and while their recording was not particularly impressive recording-wise, they were stunned by the increase in detail and bandwidth that a high end system brought to it.
They now know (and clearly suspected prior to this listening session, or they would not have asked for it) what a good system does and why its valuable to have one. They made that very clear. |
Wwchange- I meant that if we're interested in bringing the kids along then WE have to pay for it! A small sacrifice considering the up-side IMO. |
Mapman, I would agree that we were dumbed down back then and as you mentioned with the internet and the ability to communicate world wide so easily, we are all much more informed these days. This is a double edge sword in my opinion since information can enrich our lives but can also make us more suspicious of our government & large corporations. In fact the internet is flooded with so much information that we are left with the daunting task to decifer the real truth and would have to read between the lines to do so.
Society as a whole has steadily declined and the younger folks are now refered to as the unemployable generation. This is a big factor in trying to get them interested in high end audio coupled with the fact that more exposure is needed, at least so that they can see what is missing in their lives. I personally accept the idea that I might be part of a dying breed (still makes us unique and special) and I don't plan on going anywhere too soon and have no intentions on throwing the towel in as far as my involvement in high end audio. I still do my part getting younger people to listen to the alternative with an excellent response. |
Hazyj, not to worry, things are picking up and the economy is moving right along. According to Obama, in the event the Federal Government runs out of money they will just print up alot more, they have done it before. Our kids will do just fine! |
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In regards to my statement above, I can't understand why my checking account is out of funds when I still have alot more checks left to write. |
"09-26-14: Phd
In regards to my statement above, I can't understand why my checking account is out of funds when I still have alot more checks left to write."
You need to write your checks all at once. That will allow you to use them all because the balance in your account won't catch up in time to declare nsf. |
Zd542, I never thought of that before, I'm glad you did! |
An audiophile never has enough money. We have to know every trick in the book. |
Just heard Naim $250k Statement Amplifiers and preamp at NY Audio Show. The Naim rep claimed that the company has already sold 30 units internationally and has another 30 units on back order for new customers. I'd say the high end audio market is doing just fine... |
It doesn't have to be expensive by any means, but you do need to make the effort to look for cheaper live shows at the right venues depending on where you live. If you're interested in the upside of exposing kids to live tunes done right, you'll find a way. Just eat and/or drive less for a week. Or two;-) |
If it continuously "grabs you" and "draws you in further" its high end, or at least as high end as needed.
YMMV. |
