Hi-Fi Fuses - SNAKE OIL? - or something in it?

Geof, Did you know that the thickness of your skull has an impact on how you perceive sound ? I don't mean this as a joke,its true. You should have more faith in electrical science , it has brought what might be considered miracles into our lives. But you know being human and a little bit different from each other , when it comes to the things that effect our senses such as musical reproduction , we should allow the choice of a device that sounds the best to us. Look at all the pre-amps,amps,digital gear,etc. we have to choose from . These devices are "Tuned" by there perspective designer based on his idea of what music should sound like. Case in point, the biasing of an amplifier. But getting back to science for a second..............physics does dictate certain truths......these truths have everything to do with the functional ability of a given devise to do what it is supposed to do. That is to say a well produced square wave thru a circuit once achieved is the best electrical possibility. Perhaps if we took a good decongestant an hour before our listening session, there would seem to be more clarity in the high end area ?

Geof,

Unfortunately, whatever the facts may be about fancy fuses, it doesn't make the crap you sell any more credible. But keep on trying, you never know.

Pack, have you done the test with a HiFi Supreme or other esoteric fuse,or are you just relying on the accepted wisdom of those who also haven't tried it?

I don't have any test gear,but it's very easy for my ears to hear differences in tone and texture when I use DIY or esoteric fuses.

In fact my built in test gear can even pick out what brand of fuse I am fooling around with.
No foolin.

Can your test gear do that?

I would be a believer in such gizmos if they were tied into a computer which has been fed a variety of parameters and specific tonalities etc, so that when any sonic traits specific to solid core i.e. or related to AMR sonics, would then be able to distinguish those sonic traits, and sort out what is what.Not just a square wave.

Are all square waves created equally?
Are all such devices calibrated the same?
Is there a univeral standard for such devices and are these devices able to avoid the vagaries and fluctauations of the grid these devices are run on?

Sorry if my ignorance is showing, but I wonder about such stuff,especially when people place all their faith in devices and don't trust their ears.

Until such a device is made available, I'll rely on what I have always relied on.

The same devices that I use to listen to my music as it's being processed by all the crap that it's hidden behind.

My goal has always been to eliminate whatever it is that the music is hiding behind.

It started from the time I tried to put together a system that recreated the feeling of playing live on stage,as I have continued to do now nearly fifty years later.

I've heard some systems that are much closer to it than where mine is, but I am also much closer than I once was.

Esoteric fuses have opened the curtains that were once closed.

They are but one avenue to go down,and for me the price to pay to drive down that road was more than reasonable.

Pack wrote,

"But if you do a square wave sweep thur a circuit with its well thought out fuse you will see no difference at all."

That's not true. You will see a better square wave. I.e., it's a better signal.

Cheers

01-30-14: Pack
OK, I guess you guys think with your audio hearts and thats OK,after all if one thinks its true then in his ears it may be so.

By the same thought process, if you think something is not audible, then you won't hear a difference.

But if you do a square wave sweep thur a circuit with its well thought out fuse you will see no difference at all.

Science is getting better at measuring what our senses can and cannot detect, but it is far from being absolute. Yes, the human mind is still evolving, we do not yet know all that there is to know. We, as a species, are still learning, our science is ever evolving as it tries to better understand the 'human experience'.

I'm an old guy pushing 64.
I've been at this hobby for over 40 years and I've seen the same comments made back in the day when people started to state that the standard 18-22 guage zip cord was all that was needed to wire up your speakers and the interconnects that came in the box was all you needed.
Bookshelf speakers were just that, on the shelf, not on dedicated stands out into the room, and filling those stands with lead shot or sand? Come on give me a break, what can that do?
That's as stupid as putting spikes under your standmount speakers, and spending countless hours trying to find the sweet spot,when everyone knows that time should be spent listening to the tunes and the money spent on all that esoteric stuff like wires is just throwing money away.

Yet some of us moved on from that time, and now use dedicated lines, power conditioners, upscale wires and power cords and spend time placing the speakers in the room where they sound the best and tuning the room.

You don't have to do any of this stuff to enjoy the music, in fact to those who are still stuck in the mindset of the 1960's,it should be just about the music,and as long as the music is being played then everything is as it should be and "can not get any better than this".

"Life is good why rock the boat?"
Why throw any more money at this hobby than is necessary to make the music play in my room?

Yes what some of us do must seem like a waste of money on esoteric junk that shouldn't make a difference.
Especially if they've never bought anything that made a difference or heard somebody's system that was better than theirs .

I've seen comments made about how rotten some of the esoteric systems sounded at HiFi shows over the years, and those comments were often made by folks who say their system bought at a garage sale sounds just as good if not better to their ears.

I guess it's experience and exposure to some of that "esoteric"stuff that has made me one of the lunatic fringe who spends big bucks($20.00?)on an upsacale fuse, but I've heard what some of the stuff that can't make a difference does.

Everything makes a difference.
Not everything that makes a difference is for the better.
Some times it's all about trade offs.

A bit more detail for me might mean sterile or edgy to someonelse.
Warmth and smooth may mean wooly and lacking in definition to me.

So depending upon what system you insert a piece of the esoteric, you may come to a different conclusion than mine.
In that case no one can argue with you.

You tried it and it didn't work for you,it wasn't what you expected.But you tried it,you are entitled to an opinion.
Now in my system it might be just my cup of tea.

And so it is with fuses,chunks of wire or fuse bypassing.

It may seem like mumbo jumbo to some,but when you've had 30 plus years of fooling around with this part of the hobby,you get to know what is snake oil and what isn't.

People with Maggies know what fuses can do to the sound of their speakers.
Just look at a stock fuse,and it's impressive that we can hear any difference in speaker wires etc.
Esoteric fuses aren't much more robust, but enough so that you can hear differences between them and the stock ones.
I can easily tell when I used a stranded DIY fuse replacement or one made with solid core wire.
It's similar to the differences using stranded or solid core speaker wire.
Or perhaps there shouldn't be a sonic difference there either?

Some may have never had any experience with anything but good old zip cord,because that's all you need,as someone stated years ago when bragging that their gear worked just fine with nothing fancier than zip cord.And perpetrated as the gospel for decades later by the cable sceptics.
Here's my take.
What works just fine for some, doesn't work as well for others.
Will that be a hot dog or a fillet mignon you're serving with your fries?
It's all meat and potatoes, it's all about the music.

What your take is on hifi sound is not the same as mine.

What demands I make of my system and my expectations of good sound are different than yours.

Most of us never started at the same place and we haven't ended up at the same place over the years.
Our audio history, journey ,is not the same.Maybe similar.
Most of us have had many systems over the years,some may still enjoy the first system they bought.

All I can state to back up any of my claims is that over the years I've heard some stellar systems, and owned a few myself that made it very easy to tell when something made an improvement or not.

If it was an improvement I usually bought it,if not and I could return it I did.
Would I call the stuff that didn't work "snake oil?"

No, because some stuff is just too far out there for me to even consider, but if I could try it at no cost I'm open to just about any of the clocks , pebbles,discs,generators,nano stuff, that's out there.

But when it comes to things like wires, fuses and power products I've done enough experimenting with that stuff to know that it's not if they make a difference, it's all about how much of an improvement that difference is compared to what was in it's place before.

OK, I guess you guys think with your audio hearts and thats OK,after all if one thinks its true then in his ears it may be so. But if you do a square wave sweep thur a circuit with its well thought out fuse you will see no difference at all. I stand by my statement that its all in your head, please take no offense, I think your passion is why we love the Audio arts and this love drives the engine of progress.

Prices are high in audio because the makers know damn well we're a bunch of suckers. And I'm first in line.

Mapman wrote,

"Regarding fuses, I would say its a fact that no two electrical devices, including fuses, are 100% equal. Even two instances of the same design may not function 100% equivalently. So it is reasonable to expect that each performs differently. How much so and to what effect is the only question case by case. Plus all teh things that go along with that to determine value, which is pretty much always in the eye of the beholder/consumer."

I don't think I've seem quite so much angst and bs in more than a fortnight.

So gotta ask this question.

Is it a fact that there is no "snake oil" involved with fancy fuses?

Based on my experience, I would say there is no basis to say this is a fact.

Almost anything marketed for profit is likely to include some "snake oil" in the mix to make things more appealing.

Are fancy fuses any worse than the norm?

I'd say in general high end audio in general is perhaps worse than normal, with the more "esoteric" products providing a strong bias that way.

I'd say fancy fuses qualify as a fairly esoteric product. Definitely NOT the most out there in concept though.

"One has to have hands on experience before they can state what is fact what is fiction."

No doubt. And we all have unique experiences to share.

Regarding fuses, I would say its a fact that no two electrical devices, including fuses, are 100% equal. Even two instances of the same design may not function 100% equivalently. So it is reasonable to expect that each performs differently. How much so and to what effect is the only question case by case. Plus all teh things that go along with that to determine value, which is pretty much always in the eye of the beholder/consumer.

Electro, I 've use those fuses in Maggies for decades.

They work.

And something is happening here
But you don't know what it is
Do you, Mister Jones ?

You have many contacts
Among the lumberjacks
To get you facts
When someone attacks your imagination
But nobody has any respect
Anyway they already expect you
To all give a check
To tax-deductible charity organizations.
You've been with the professors
And they've all liked your looks
With great lawyers you have
Discussed lepers and crooks
You've been through all of
F. Scott Fitzgerald's books
You're very well read
It's well known.

:-)

One has to have hands on experience before they can state what is fact what is fiction.
You need to compare one to the other not speculate.
You have to do the experiment.

Until that is so,I say all is fiction, until proven as fact.

"No one can accuse you of taking sides"

I take the side that facts are facts and alone may be sufficient to achieve ones goals, but what can be predicted reliably based on the facts is never 100% certain.

In home audio, that which lies beyond the facts is very much the "twilight zone" that is high end audio, where ordinary things do not happen very often.

Very well stated, Mr S!

Schubert, that's true, but as in other areas of life where budgeted money is involved, the informed person who alerts us to charlatans and deceivers provide a valuable service, but are often harassed for their efforts. It's nice to be romantic, but important to know when something is a sparkly fake diamond even if we have every right to buy it.

Schubert,
Nice.

Most of what is relevant, in audio as in life, is unmeasurable.
Doing Newton in a Quantam world .

I would say that a cheap fuse,with it's paper thin glass envelope may be more prone to disaster after repeatedly removing it.
I don't think it wise to infer that this practise is just as good as trying a new fuse.
You know how some feeble minds can be swayed when they read about such practises.

If you like stock fuses and aren't interested in trying an upgrade leave well enough alone.

I would note that in 30 years of running DIY fuses or bypassing them altogether I ner once had a meltdown or accident.

I am not endorsing this practise,just as I wouldn't endorse removing and reinserting stock fuses to try and get an improvement in sound.

What I can state is that in every instance,the sound with the stock fuse was inferior to what I replaced it with, in more than one component and over 3 decades.

I have been using upgraded fuses for the past 4 or 5 years and have not had any problems in any of the components(cd ,amps, pre)that I've used them in.

I can also state that when one does do something stupid like not pay close attention to the small fuse values, a HiFI Supreme fuse will blow, so yes they do what they are supposed to do, and that is self destruct before something else does.

Mapman wrote,

"Just remember, the mere action of removing and re-inserting a fuse alone COULD make a difference, if the new electric contacts are better/cleaner as a result of the process.

That aside, if one fuse sounds better/different than another in repeated test cases, that's hard to refute.

No way to know for sure beforehand. YMMV."

No one can accuse you of taking sides. :-)

Just remember, the mere action of removing and re-inserting a fuse alone COULD make a difference, if the new electric contacts are better/cleaner as a result of the process.

That aside, if one fuse sounds better/different than another in repeated test cases, that's hard to refute.

No way to know for sure beforehand. YMMV.

Well said Mapman,
We all make our choices as we see fit. I just don't need someone telling me or others what will or won't work when we've actually done the listening and report our individual outcomes. That is the ultimate test, otherwise it's only conjecture.
Charles,

I'd trust Nelson Pass to know the right fuse to use in his products.

Not to say changing a fuse might not sound different for many reasons case by case but predicting how in advance is a pot shot.

Plus, ehenever one mucks with the internals of a complex device there is some risk, but if fuse replacement is done correctly and with a reliable product, there should be no problem. If. And if not product warranties are voided in the process.

Most everything one buys these days is easily returnable/refundable. Companies with poor customer service/customer satisfaction policies do not survive long.

As long as the fuse is what is says electronically and works accordingly, no real risk then if good customer service is in place.

WHat if something unexpected happens to the device as a result of changing the fuse? Shit can and does happen. Each knows best how qualified they are to attempt whatever it is they might attempt and deal with things as needed if something should go wrong unexpectedly.

Just being real. Everyone can judge for themselves best what to do or not.

Hi Pack,
Don't understand your " mumbo jumbo" reference. I was curious and purchased the SR Quantum fuses to try myself and their use was sonically beneficial. That's all that matters for me, results. If you tried them and weren't impressed then that's your experience but it isn't mine.

If you haven't tried them or refuse to do so based on principle, well then you're merely expressing an opinion which is irrelevant to me.
If you believe audio components can't be improved in some cases be using better tubes, fuses, parts etc. Then that's a very narrow minded stance but that's your prerogative certainly. I believe in simply listening and then forming a conclusion rather than adopting a preconceived know it all perspective.
Charles,

"Mumbo jumbo physics,which is limited to what can and cannot be measured and mumbo jumbo tweaks are no different.

The followers of either can be fooled by what they have read and by preconceived notions."

Mumbo jumbo is hard to bank on in any case.

Especially in the case of a decision based on mumbo jumbo, a money back guarantee to go along with it should be provided. Otherwise, I will pass personally in most cases.

You can read up on all the physics you want and until you experience what a fuse upgrade can do, you are just book smart.

Mumbo jumbo physics,which is limited to what can and cannot be measured and mumbo jumbo tweaks are no different.

The followers of either can be fooled by what they have read and by preconceived notions.

Be a real man of science,embrace it's ethics and "do the experiment" and varify with your own ears and post your own findings.

Don't rely on the opinions, experiences of others ,in order to pass the physics exam you have to do the test,do the experiments, not just read the book.

Most of the folks who build this stuff refuse to admit that their offspring can be coaxed into even better performers.

I'll give Pass credit, he never stops at one design,he keeps working on different ways to skin the cat.
If he were stunted by just the findings of the physics that came before, he would never have progressed to where he is now.
Would you call this the behaviour of a lunatic?

Perhaps his designs are so great that an upgraded fuse isn't necessary.
But how many amps are as good as his?

No sales pro forced me to try upgraded Designer fuses, only 30 years past experiences with bypassing fuses with DIY wire, gleaned from reading about the sonic impact fuses can have from the old Audio Critic Peter Aczel.

The lunacy to my way of thinking, runs both ways.

You don't seem to get the point, When Nelson Pass designs an amp, every consideration is taken into account in the circuit layout. Ya they cost some bucks,but check out the rail fuses. Pass would laugh at your mumbo jumbo as I do, you tweak guys should pay more attention to physics than some sales "pro". There seems to be no end to the lunacy out there .

Pack,
Some manufacturers encourage their customers to try higher quality fuses. This is no different than customers who are given the green light to roll different tubes from a builder who used cheaper stock tubes in the component. Most builders can't offer the best available tubes due to cost and target price point considerations. Same is true of capacitors, wire and resistors, it's easy to upgrade these parts to achieve better sound, again manufacturers have cost restraints to factor in terms of final product cost. So a 20 dollar fuse will lose out to a 20 cent fuse with overall final cost comes into play.

Unless a component is cost no object, there will be inevitable compromising to stay within a predetermined price range

No offense boys, but do you really think that if the quality of a fuse was a factor in the sound and performance of a high end amp that the designer of that amp would have addressed it ? Did I hear ....BONEHEADS!!..............

Well I own the AMR, HIFI Supremes, Audio Magic, and the Synergistic fuses.
And my choice is...

It depends on the equipment.

The Supremes seem to add larger stage presence but on some equipment they sound bass shy, but on other equipment not so.

SR fuses really sound better with the WA Sticker and have more dynamics with a little more slam in the lower bass and on some equipment its nice and on some its overkill.

Strangely the Audio Magic goes through a mini break in process and at this point (2 days)its hard to tell just how far things can improve. Its a little darker sounding which again sounds good with some equipment and not so with other.

I have the AMR fuses but I have not tried them yet.

Very nicely stated, Lacee.

Value wise I would say the AMR fuses are hard to beat,of course not compared to the cost of stock fuses.
Soundwise they are also close to the sound of the HiFi Supremes in my system,it was only after I replaced the Supremes that I noticed more slam and body to the sound of my system.
I should add, I used the same WA chips on both fuse types and felt they improved the sound of whatever fuse they were on, even the stock fuses.
Amazingly the WA chips still have enough stickiness to be moved from fuse to fuse, but I think that's pushing things a tad too far.Better to just buy more new chips from here on.
Perhaps in the future I'll experiment with some other fuses.

The fuse debates have settled it seems,but I also haven't read about any fuse being the top dog.

It would be very much system dependant anyway,but it would be nice if aftermarket fuses could have some sort of descriptors assigned to them.

For example-the HiFi Supremes, to me, would be the 3ooB of fuses.
The AMR would be EL 84.
So depending on how your system is voiced you could(a taboo?)voice your sound accordingly.

I personally find nothing wrong by fine tuning a system using tubes or wires or fuses to achieve the type of sound that the owner desires.
Which seems to be shunned by most in this hobby.

Yet some folks cry about how the new gear tends to be too sterile for them, so they seek out gear which has colourations more to their liking, or they seek out vintage gear with tone controls.Using interconnect as tone controls is frowned upon ,it's better to buy another amp or pre amp.Yeah, that makes way more sense!

As I grow older, I don't like that over laid back sound ,but that's because my old ears need as much detail as they can get to make things sound right.My ears have built in high frequency filters.
Younger ears perhaps,tend to go for a more polite sound.

So I can't see any harm dome if anyone states that they use interconnects, speaker wires, NOS tubes or fuses to build a sound that they and they alone find solace with.

We should all be thankful that we have so many choices.

Geoffkait:
I have tried stock, Isoclean, and Synergistic Research fuses in the same location. I preferred the Synergistic Research improvement. I believe both the Synergistic Research and Audio Magic have a money back trial policy. I would try those two in both directions. I did not find the WA chips to be a Quantum improvement on fuses.

Which is best - Synergistic Research, Audio Magic Nano Liquid, HiFi Tuning Supreme, Furutech, Isoclean and AMR? And which is best when using WA Quantum Chip?

I switched back to the HiFi Supremes from the AMR.

The AMR were better than stock, but the Supreme's give a bit more body to the overall sound.

Mental, so the 64K dollar question is, of course, did you try the fuse in both directions? One pill makes you small, one pill makes you tall.

Not an organ donor myself but the bike looks sweet! Well done.

No wonder why you can't hear differences in fuses!! Really that scooty looks like fun in the sun.

Mental- nanny sounds like the best idea ;-)

Teleport the HOT AIR!

teleport the heat, that is...

Swampwater wrote,

"Geoff, what he really needs is for you to invent a quantum fan that will cool a COVERED pre-amp or better yet, teleport it to another dimension ;-) "

So, it sounds like what you're saying is the tubes are covered, too. No wonder the preamp gets so hot.

:-)