One has to work his way up to Coltrane. Start with maybe Charlie Parker, and once Coltrane had been assimilated, give Ornette Coleman a listen. Wild, baby!
Help me understand John Coltrane .... seriously.
Hi Everyone,
Listen I have a favor to ask, and those of you better educated in Jazz can help me.
I always have a tough time listening to John Coltrane. It's like he's talking a different language.
Can any of you point me to recordings I should listen to on Tidal or Quboz or whatever that set me up to better appreciate the man?
Thank you for the musical education.
Best,
E
Listen I have a favor to ask, and those of you better educated in Jazz can help me.
I always have a tough time listening to John Coltrane. It's like he's talking a different language.
Can any of you point me to recordings I should listen to on Tidal or Quboz or whatever that set me up to better appreciate the man?
Thank you for the musical education.
Best,
E
170 responses Add your response
I think they are aware of the rhythm and meter but they are allowing themselves to not adhere to traditional rules regarding rhythm and meter. I can't tell you how many times I've been listening to a jazz group that I was sure was totally lost regarding the form, only to have them suddenly come back together and prove me wrong. |
When it comes to the instruments of wind, I found out that masters at Guča Festival play no second fiddle to those we mention here. Unless you truly dread it for non-musical reasons, which you will not after about an hour of following the festival routine, you will never have to convince yourself why you like it. It is exactly the opposite from the mystery of the dim room loneliness with a glass of an expensive drink in hand. |
I studied tenor sax from Grades 4 through 12 and my music teacher was a retired jazz musician. Coltrane is what is known as a "progressive" jazz players. Progressives use a lot of atonality, which can sound like they're playing the wrong notes, and they also don't strictly observe things like rhythm and meter. Coltrane got more progressive as the years went on. I used to imitate him by. just hitting sax keys at random, which my bandmates thought was pretty funny. I much prefer "traditional" jazz players who are more melodic like Stan Getz on tenor, Paul Desmond on alto and Gerry Mulligan on baritone. But if you're still interested in exploring Coltrane, he did an album with Duke Ellington - quartet of piano, sax, bass and drums -- which is about as accessible as Coltrane gets. |
I know how your feel, I experienced the same thing when getting into Jazz . So what I did was listen to some of his recordings that I knew the melody and then listened to Johns version. Although he is pretty much all over the map when he plays and how he interprets the song, one can still appreciate the way he does it. What really got me into John was listening to Miles Davis Kind of Blue- a very basic Jazz lp that everyone, at any level of Jazz can listen to and get into.. I never get tired of listening to that album! Happy listening!! |
As a Davis / Coltrane fiend, I second a lot of the advice on easing into Coltrane through the First Great Quintet years (55-58). Workin is my fave of the Prestige recordings. Kind Of Blue speaks for itself. I’d suggest one other approach: the Thelonious Monk/Coltrane works, which were in the same period (56-57). The Monk&Coltrane The Complete Riverside Recordings are available on CD for about $10... a easy intro. Thelonius Monk With John Coltrane is about $10 on CD as well. The T. Monk Quartet with Coltrane at Carnegie Hall is a nice extra. Monk was a significant influence on both Davis and Coltrane, and (IMO) his focused approach to bebop is a wee bit like Coltrane’s focused approach to free jazz. Once Coltrane left Davis, his early work is the most accessible. Blue Train and Soultrane don’t get the same attention that Giant Steps and Lush Life do. Coltrane Plays The Blues is a good listen. Anything after A Love Supreme gets...challenging. Both Directions At Once and Blue World are kinda the bridges to ALS. Ascension is an acquired taste. In all, Coltrane’s evolution is a lot like Davis’ - at a certain point, the WTF factor sets in for me. YMMV. Bin voyage! |
To go back, yes, we have connection to some artists and not to others, but I feel, strongly, that what we think of as just who WE are is learned. Knowledge and exposure to it and art changes who you are at a fundamental level, so hearing early Coltrane, and who he was answering can change my ideas and your listening entirely. So, while I appreciate that I'm not alone, I hope others won't mind if I try a little harder. :) Best, Erik |
I have been passionately listening to jazz music -- primarily hard bop and fusion -- for almost fifty years. I have enormous John Coltrane and Miles Davis catalogs. Although there are some Miles Davis avant-garde titles that "speak another language" to me, I have never, to paraphrase Will Rogers, met a John Coltrane title that I did not like, indeed, love. Put quite simply, the man is the greatest musician in history. But he just might not be everyone's cup of tea. So I will not recommend any titles to you. I will state, however, that A Love Supreme is without a doubt Coltrane's best work. |
Totally loving the Kenny G stuff here! As to Coltrane, well, so you don’t like it - move on. I love Interstellar Space but, then again I’m totally into Lustmord, Zoviet France, Paul Panhuysen, Stockhausen, Sun Ra, Whitehouse, John Zorn, Napalm Death... He totally makes sense within a spiritualist, atonal, alternate scale, meditative, Soul centered universe. Music is the mirror of consciousness - its vast, so you'll find some you like somewhere. My favorite was when my Dad bought the Village Vanguard sessions. He was a 50’s jazz guy (Brubeck, Erroll Garner, MJQ)...lasted one minute before he gifted it to me. Ha! |
I went to see Tool this week. In the row in front of me was a guy who wanted to head-bang...he had his hair long on top with the sides shaved. Tool started playing...but the complex time signature was too much for this gentleman to get his rhythm. He didn’t “get” it. He was a 4/4 kind of guy. Tool is a 5/4,6/4 kind of band. But the guy thoroughly enjoyed it! To me, jazz can often be just like that...the musicians...often heavily influenced by “enhancers”...came up with really cutting edge, avant-garde stuff that either “scratches an itch” you didn’t know you had, or you listen and go “what the...?”. At a minimum, listen to “ Giant Steps” after watching some videos on Coltrane and the Circle of Fifths. You may or may not care for it, but the genius and complexity behind it is really intriguing. I find that sometimes I really “get into” stuff as my brain starts to understand it. I’ve been on a hard-bop kick lately spinning Pepper Adams and Nick Brignola on bari Sax. I’m sure others will have more recommendations. I’d say listen to a bunch...if it clicks for you - awesome! If not - don’t force it and move along...there’s plenty of good stuff out there. https://youtu.be/2kotK9FNEYU |
So many comments about Coltrane "not being an easy listen" or "taking time to digest", or something in that direction. It seems that many like to work hard. I enjoy Kind Of Blue, not too often, own A Love Supreme (I tried, at least), and tried to convince myself there is something to other Miles Davis’ albums and that A Love Supreme is really great. Eventually, I admitted to myself I am a peasant who likes some other things more. One of them being Tenor Madness by Sonny Rollins mentioned in the post above. |
Trane is an acquired taste. Don’t listen to him because others tell you he’s a genius. His later albums reflected the great physical pain he was in from his cancer. Very hard to listen to. Have you listened to much jazz? There are so many great players to listen to before you’re ready for Trane. Here are some recommendations for jazz to listen to if you’re not a jazz player yourself and are just beginning to listen. Anything by Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers. Check out this track from the late 70’s. The people who have played with the Messengers is a Who’s Who of modern jazz. Early (before 1956) Miles Davis - "Miles and Horns" Dexter Gordon Phil Woods Lester Young Sonny Rollins Charlie Parker Sonny Stitt Scott Hamilton Woody Shaw After you’ve listened to at least 3 full albums of each of these guys, THEN go back and listen to Trane playing Giant Steps and see if that makes better sense to you. |
I just wanted to say thanks so much to everyone who has lent an ear and suggested a good path to follow. Despite what some may think, not all my posts are trolls. I am not contributing or replying to this right now because life has intervened and I'm not able to take up all the great suggestions here, but it looks like there's so much great material in this thread even if I can't take advantage of it just yet others will. Thanks again! Erik |
Well ,Its funny ,because like everyone has said here there are many aspects to jazz.Its not all the same so times you have to just listen,and take it in ,lol.I was like 19 and working in the old PO on the midnight tour.I was into Rock, Beatles,Stones,Cream.and am rock ,lol.Well this PO was,in LIC ,the APO -NPO ,LIT .at night the guy who controlled the radio would only play JAZZ ,it drove me crazy.New Wave Jazz ,Free Form.I went up to the cage as we called it and asked the guy to change the station, his answer was NO.So I had to listen to it all night long and the place was empty and it was loud.lol.After awhile ,I did learn to like it ....just listening, and it grew on me...But some of it did SUCK,lol....that was 48 years ago.....I like all kinds of music and give everything a chance.... |
Erik, to understand many jazz musicians you have to start at their beginning and follow them through time as they evolve. The great ones keep searching and exploring and in many instances leave us behind. Later in his career Trane became influenced by eastern music which is abrasive to most of us westerners. I gave up after he left McCoy Tyner and Elvin Jones behind. Wayne Shorter progressed in a way I can still follow and enjoy. Most of us want to enjoy music, not be challenged by it. Henry Threadgill is an original. He bounces back and forth between incredible songs that really bring out a smile and music that leaves me totally flat. I have to have some sense of melody and or structure/rhythm to hold on to to keep me focused without either I am lost. I have tried to listen to Coltrane's Ascension three or four times and I just do not get it. But, when you listen to him in his earlier days it was obvious that he was special. Listen to Sonny Rollin's Tenor Madness. Trane plays on that album. Compare the two. Rollin's is no slouch but you always know when you are listening to Trane he has a lyrical and rhythmical facility with the instrument that Rollins just can not match. Rollin's playing seems sort of clumsy in comparison. |
Eric, Are there other jazz saxophonists that you like? Maybe start with some folks that are within the genre of jazz that you enjoy and maybe down the road, you will like Coltrane more? Maybe try Sonny Rollins? Saxophone Colossus, Way Out West, The Sound of Sonny. I'm a jazz musician and I love Coltrane but find his later output to be very difficult and I have to be in just the right mood. I believe that jazz is a language. The more you are immersed the more you understand. It's like going to a foreign country where you don't speak the language. At first everything is noise and nonsense but then you start to hear a word or two that you understand and things eventually start to make sense. I think it's well worth the effort but, music is about enjoyment and if you don't like something, you shouldn't force yourself just because people told you you should |
Coltrane typically modulates key changes differently than other Jazz players (major thirds). His progressions are often called “Coltrane changes”. Search for an explanation of “Coltrane changes” on YouTube and watch a video or two. After that, you’ll have a better idea of what’s going on in his music. With that understanding under your belt, the music should (hopefully) sound more accessible Good luck |
As someone who loves everything about music but really is not educated in music in any way, Coltrane respect did not come until after years of exploring jazz. I started with Kenny Burrell and bought everything I could where he was sitting in. I could understand Kenny immediately it was several years before my untrained ear and my scrambled brain was able to hear the musical picture Coltrane was creating. The Coltrane documentary also helped me understand a little bit of what was going on with him as he was creating it. After 10 years of jazz exploration, Coleman Hawkins and Kenny Burrell are my go to’s over Miles Davis and Coltrane, although I understand the credit these gentlemen have and deserve. Just as Led Zeppelin or Pink Floyd pushed the bounds of rock, I rarely put them on for everyday listening. |
erik_squires here is an article aimed at the Coltrane-curious, like you with accompanying Spotify playlists: https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/nemw88/john-coltrane-guide-essay-streaming. |
Coltrane as an artist exhibited more change over time than did most other artists (with the possible exception of Sun Ra). Certainly much more than Miles. A lot of people point to Miles as someone who constantly evolved, but his progression was always rooted in what was popular at the time. Coltrane went beyond that. Way beyond that. From straight ahead player with Miles (and Monk), then his first baby steps as a leader, to coming into his own with his classic quartet, to his final sheets of sound/Free Jazz sound. All different, but all from the same player. For someone looking to explore Coltrane, I would start with his work as a member of Miles's 1st classic group- all on Prestige. Then to Blue Trane. Then to his collaborations with Johnny Hartman and Duke Elllington. This will take you from a player rooted in classic hard bop through his initial explorations in expanding standards. Then take a deep breath if you want to go any further (and for some the above is enough). My Favorite Things shows the first manifest example of the direction Coltrane would take. I consider the title track to be one of the first psychedelic jams, a harbinger of what was to come later in the decade. His solo is like whirling dervish; in, around, ahead and behind the melody all at the same time. Try listening through headphones, late at night- this will probably be a vastly different experience than listening through speakers. If you want to continue, then jump into A Love Supreme. Know that this album was so influential that inspired the creation of a church congregation in San Francisco. I'll admit I did not get this track for a long time, until I watched the Spike Lee movie 'Mo Better Blues". This track plays over a climactic scene of a marriage taking place in twilight, on a Brooklyn rooftop, with lower Manhattan in the background. The scene is beautifully filmed, with a late in the day technicolor feel to the film. A Love Supreme is in perfect synchronization with the solemnity of the wedding ceremony, then the obvious joy of the celebrants. If you are still interested enough to continue, then go for his free jazz titles that continued to push the boundaries of what was possible. |
I second other posts about listening to the Miles' albums first; also "Ballads." Maybe even better would be "Duke Ellington and John Coltrane," the 1962 recording in which each of these great musicians gracefully gave up ground to meet the other in the middle. It might have been easier for Ellington, as he was a gifted accompaniest, able to comp virtually any other style of player. But Coltrane made his real gift apparent in the slower tunes, especially Strayhorn's "My Little Brown Book." It's true that Coltrane developed a different language on his horn. But that's the norm in jazz...Parker, Gillespie, Armstrong, and any number of others had done the same thing in their time. To really hear what they're doing, listen to slow tunes; it's much easier there. |
Help me understand ART .... seriously. That is what you are really asking because real jazz is art. And as with any art form it is ok if you don't get all of it or appreciate all of it, as long as you try. Just move on to another artist and come back to it latter. The more you listen to jazz the more you will find yourself gong back and appreciating pieces you previously passed on. But of all the jazz artists, I'd have to admit that JC is one of the more difficult to "get" and best left for serious listening after one has a better understanding of jazz. |
Hey I don't get Rap "music", it doesn't bother me in the least. If you do not like bop or post bop jazz, so what? It does not make any sense to some people. Others can recognize the structure in the improvising. They play the notes in the chords around the melody. It is like algebra instead of arithmetic. Oh they know ALL the rules, and know how to break them. It is not totally random the notes they play. |
