You probably don't need another option, but I just demoed the ProAc Studio 148 (at SoundImageATL--thanks Lawson!) and can't keep silent. They have excellent detail, but no harshness, amazing vocals, as well as surprising bass for the size--but most of all they just get out of the way of music & let you feel the emotion of the recording. Recommended for amps 15 watts & up (4ohm), but you certainly wouldn't need a sub (except for organ music).
I much prefer them to my experience of the Vandy 1's, but admit it isn't the fairest of comparisons as they're almost 3x more expensive & I was in a dedicated room, listening to my music from a Linn Majik 'integrated' thats more expensive than the speakers. |
As a Vandy owner, I think if you are considering the Vandy 1's or 2's, you should get at least one or better yet, a pair of 2w subs. Since the Vandy sub crossover (M5-HP) will filter out low frequencies, you probably wouldn't have to get a more powerful amp.
Sbanks recommendation for Johnny Rutan is a sound one. He will give you lots of great information you can trust.
I also +1, the recommendation for McCormack amps. I own the DNA-1 and MicroPower Drive.
I am currently moving to Atma-Sphere amps and preamp. I haven't got things hooked up yet, but when I do, I'll let you know what I think, if you wish. |
I agree with sbank on all counts. I think if you read the "Ask Richard" section on the Vandy website, you will see that Richard frequently recommends the 1 for folks with lower power tube amps, and tends to encourage more juice for the 2 and *way* more juice for 3. The only answer is a demo, though. At the very least, bring your amp to the dealer and listen at your normal levels. |
All the Vandy 2 series are a HUGE step up from the 1 series. Even considering your demo results, spare power would be beneficial; you might not notice it unless playing dynamic challenging music, but in the long you will appreciate having spare power & headroom from clipping.
My advice is to call John Rutan at Audio Connection, who is probably the #1 Vandy dealer. Ask him about getting a trade in 2 Series, as he likely has a steady stream of upgraders seeking Treo, 5 & 7 series etc.
If you are open to others than Dec amps consider used McCormack for SS or go with something from Rogue for tubes. Both are frequently paired successfully with Vandys.
2s will keep you happy for a long time and you can upgrade your other gear around them without them being the weakness for some time. I did.
The 1s will leave you wanting more & soon. Cheers,
Spencer |
Basically have narrowed it down to a more reasonable cost. Something I am more comfortable with. Speaker Selection - Vandersteen 1Ci
- Vandersteen 2Ce
- Decware HR-1
Amplification - Keeping MiniTorii
- Purchase Torii Jr
- Purchase Torii Mk IV
Other Options - Replace PH3 with ZP3
- Add CP3 Pre-Amp in front of MiniTorii for more gain
The Vandersteen 1Ci awards the most flexibility from a component perspective. I think adding more power than 4 watts per channel would be well received in the system. I could afford the massive Torii 25 watts per channel if I stick with the 1Ci or 2Ce. The low end response at 26 Hz on the 2Ce is very impressive. That said, the 2Ce would require an upgrade to the amp to either the Torii Jr or Torii. Back to spinning some wax! Ciao, Ron |
Ok so after about 6 hours of listening, I am thoroughly impressed with the Vandersteen 1Ci speakers! The beauty is my amp is plenty powerful to push them to sound great at levels louder than I would listen to in this room.
In addition to that, they fit well in the room and are quite a bit lower than I was originally going to spend. Just going to spend some time noodling on the HR-1 v. 1Ci, both of which would be powered by my current amp just fine.
Thanks again for the input all!
Ciao,
Ron |
It would be worth your time to look at the Spatial Hologram M4. Clayton is well informed and will spend the time to discuss your front end. He also offers a long trial period to fully break in the speakers before deciding to keep them or not. His OB design has truly hit a sweet spot and in the words of my non audiophile wife, "I can hear the difference in these speakers." At least worth examining. I'm sold on them and to boot, they are an amazing buy at about $2K. |
hifiron, I know that the Legacy Signature SE's would serve you well, but if you are afraid that the room is to small maybe you could look at the Studio HD's or the new Calibre from Legacy. If you feel that you needed more bass then add one of Legacy's sub woofers to the mix.
It's hard to beat the Legacy line, I spent over a year researching, listening, and traveling before I decided, and now I have a set of Focus SE's and a set of Studio HD's.
Doug, and Bill (and Victoria, Bill's daughter) are great people and will take the time to answer questions for you. |
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Ok so made some great progress on the research. There is an audio store close that has Vandersteen 1Ci speakers. Going to bring them home today to audition.
Resetting the price point as well as normalizing efficiency has brought me to a much smaller list of speakers to look at.
Decware HR-1
Living Voice Auditorium R3
Zu Audio Omen Def Mk II w/ Radian Tweeter
Vandersteen 1Ci
I might be in the market to upgrade to Torii Jr or Torii Mk IV and potentially a pre-amp.
Progress! |
Note: I do like the Radian tweeter on the Zu speakers, the Omen Def Mk.II can have that tweeter added, the Druid comes with it. |
Lots of great stuff here... need to continue to do some research on Zu... Assuming I keep the amp, so far promising speaker options are: - Decware HR-1
- Legacy Audio Signature SE
- Legacy Audio Classic SE
- Living Voice Auditorium R3
- Living Voice Avatar 2
- Zu Audio Omen Def Mk.II
- Zu Audio Druid V
- Reference 3A Edition BE
- ProAc Response
- AudioNote AZ-2 (Corner Loaded)
- Tekton Brilliance
- Tektop Seas Pendragons
Tomorrow will be full of research. Thanks again for all the discussion, have a great evening all! |
Look for speakers with a sensitivity of 95+db and impedence which match the impedence of the output of the Torii.
Your best answer is to call Steve Deckert and ask him directly - I'm sure he'll tell you which speakers will mate best with any of his amps.
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Mapman has a good point about corner placement and if that's the case look at AudioNote AN line they can be really good and excel in the corners. + one of the Proac speakers probable go bigger then the tablet though, wasn't too impressed with the Devore Fidelity Gibbon 8 heard them next to some Dyna audio 3 ways and the Dyas smoked them. I settled on some Living Voice Avatar 2 they are 94db and are very musical. |
Whatever you get consider using corner placement in a small room like that. |
Tekton Designs
Devore Fidelity
Coincident Speaker Technologies
Proac (Tablette 10)
Sonist
Omega and Outlaw speakers (both have 2 way designs)
Spatial ?
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@bcgator you are correct about the Triton One's having ten drivers (4 passive). However, (a) better to have too big than too little where speakers are concerned IMO and (b) the Triton's (all powered models) have a bass control. One can dial down (or up) the bass as much as 7.5 db (relative to flat position). Also, instead of the T1, a T3+ would work very nicely. |
+1 for the Zu line.
Very efficient, very clean, very detailed sound.
If you buy direct, they have a trial period, too. So, you can evaluate them. |
@grinnell good to know, I am not looking to make ears bleed by any stretch of the imagination. Ideally something that can handle a wide rang of music from Rock (Neil Young/Springsteen/Morrison) + Jazz (Coltrane/Davis/Evans) + Pink Floyd/Daft Punk and more.
I will check out the Zu line this evening as well, their prices are lower for sure.
Need to make a spreadsheet or two. :)
Thanks again!
R |
I would explore the zu line more . Jmho .. alot of people upgrade spkrs here "The chase for absolute sound" that only makes for some great used deals .. pro ac come to mind also .. best of luck |
I have the mini torii and i use Reference 3A de Capo i's
92db eff, fairly flat, lively, detailed
now it is not super loud in my 12x20ft room open on the sides but it puts out some sound
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@hifiron I have heard the Signature SE with 600 watts of Coda on them. Even with that, they are velvety smooth, but still detailed.... You have a ton of flexibility with those.. |
"Am I ludicrous for looking at the Signature SEs for this room? Doug over
@ Legacy said they would be a good fit for the room, since they are
sealed they can be put fairly close to the rear well."
Ron, maybe Doug mentioned it, but the Signature SE do include a switch on the back, by which you can reduce the bass, I think by 2dB, in case the bass loads the room up too much.
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@tls49 I have looked at the Zu's quite a bit, actually I was very close to pulling the trigger on the Zu Omen Mk.II towers right when I started looking for my refresh a few months ago.
I have to say, the amount of Zu Audio gear for sale on A'gon does concern me a little. |
@mtrot thanks for the pic, they are impressive towers for sure!
@bcgator yes, room is 11' W x 12' 4" L x 10' H.
@timlub definitely a little more than I originally wanted to spend, but this is a lifetime purchase and I don't want to be penny-wise and pound-foolish.
There is a great deal of research still to be done before I pull the trigger for sure. I do love the voicing of the Decware MiniTorii, but it does limit my speaker options for sure.
I am just a little turned off by most consumer tower speakers, and the boutique HiFi audio is for sure out of my price range. I think that is why Decware gear sits so well in my eyes, great performance:value ratio in my opinion.
That said, where we are. Am I ludicrous for looking at the Signature SEs for this room? Doug over @ Legacy said they would be a good fit for the room, since they are sealed they can be put fairly close to the rear well.
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Something seems amiss here...the Triton 1 has 10 drivers, and the Signature SE has two 10" woofers. You did say the room is 11x12x10 yes? Am I the only one who thinks those speakers are too large for an 11x12 room?
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I personally would prefer at least a bare minimum of 10 or 15 watts on the Signature SE's, but if they are affordable, this is a well thought out, well designed speaker.
Nothing wrong with the Salk's either, but according to their charts, they are 85db sensitivity anechoic.... I would want a minimum of 50 watts on those....
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@mtrot this is hugely helpful, thank you! |
Ron, I recently was able to do an in-home audition of a set of Legacy Audio Signature SE, paired with a Raven Audio Blackhawk Limted integrated tube amp(20 wpc). My, oh my, what beautiful sound! This audition was conducted by connecting my Oppo BDP-83 universal player directly to an analog input on the Blackhawk, using Audio Art IC-3 interconnects and Audioquest CV-8 speaker cables. The two musical pieces I used were the SACD version of Phantom of the Opera soundtrack and the CD of Sade Lovers Rock. On the Phantom of the Opera, the mid range was fantastic, with vocals very pure and individual vocalists easily placed in the image. The Signature SE cabinets are just so inert all over them, such that you can hurt your knuckles if you rap the speakers too hard. The best thing about them is the Air Motion ribbon tweeter and mid driver, which offer vocals with no coloration at all. As illustrated with Sade's Lovers Rock, the bass is also impactful but very nicely defined when reproducing electric bass. Regarding the Signature SEs, I've also recently listened at brick and mortar shops to some other speakers that sell in the $7K price range, and generally they are smaller, and use 7 or 8 inch woofers, resulting in less bass prowess and extension, and they never have the ribbon tweeter technology that you get with the Legacy. For overall performance and value, I keep coming back to the Legacy.
Hope this helps!
http://legacyaudio.com/products/view/signature-se/https://www.ravenaudio.com/Blackhawk-Limited-Edition-Integrated-Amplifier_p_21.html |
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@hifiron I GET (pun intended) what your saying about the Triton complexity and I'll buy that. Actually you make a good point. Also, note that I initially suggested the Triton's given your room dimensions. I didn't mention anything about dimensions initially but seeing that you just stated the dimensions you prefer (i.e. you need to keep the width and depth closer to 14"), the Triton's would work for you at least from a dimensional perspective. . |
gdhal, what turns me off about the Golden Ear is the complexity of the electronics. I am really shooting for a minimal approach, which is what I enjoyed so much about the single driver speakers. I do realize that the Signature SE speakers are more complex with a crossover, so I don't have my heart set on them per se, but I want more flexibility in what I can listen to, something the Mark Audio A12P speakers I have today don't allow me.
The HR-1s I know will work with the MiniTorii, as well as being great with the Torii Jr if I decide to upgrade. I don't have a great deal of room to bring the speakers out into the room, so sealed speakers have its benefits.
Height is not an issue on these speakers, but I need to keep the width and depth closer to 14". My SuperPensils are 25" deep, it doesnt flow with the room that well.
Thanks again for the input! |
tls49, thanks that is hugely helpful... I might not be able to get away from upgrading to the Torii Jr @ 20 WPC. |
IMHO, using a 4 watt tube amplifier, only high efficiency speakers should be considered. The LegacyAudio Signature SE is listed at 92db, however that is room sensitivity at 2.83v. Since it is a 4 ohm speaker, 2.83v is 2 watts and the 1 watt rating will be 3db lower. Also, room sensitivity is 2-3db higher than anechoic chamber. So a 1 watt rating anechoic chamber is ~87db.
The Decware HR-1 is also a 4 ohm speaker, however the specification is listed at 1 watt and not 2.83v. For 8 ohm speakers 2.83v is 1 watt, so no adjustment is necessary.
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Salk and Legacy are nice speakers for sure. At that price point might as well also consider a Golden Ear Triton One. |
The Salk's would require a new amp for sure at 88 dB efficient IMHO. |
Their Signature SE is 92 dB, which should be plenty for a 6 WPC MiniTorii.
If it doesnt work out, I will upgrade to the Torii Jr. which is 20 WPC.
The Reference 3A's are nice, but to get into the we're looking at 7500-8000 which is a grand more than the Sigs.
I will revisit the Salks as well...
Thanks for the input!
Ciao,
Ron |
If you like Salk, I'd think the Exotica series would work best,
I heard some Legacies powered by Raven amplifiers--it certainly didn't lack for dynamics, but I believe they're all 20 watts or more, Unfortunately, I don't recall the models involved.
The only other high efficiency option that I've heard & liked (enough to remember, at least) and also isn't excessively huge or expensive is Reference 3A.
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