Good thoughts. The armlift is working appropriately and when lowering onto the table while playing a record, it does not slide towards the spindle. It will do that a little bit at the beginning of the record, but as Stringreen has stated, many records have a lip. Also it doesn't do this on every record I play.
I heard from Pro-ject, but they have asked for more information which I have supplied. Hopeful feedback from them soon. Thanks to all for the continued interest and suggestions/questions. |
Dover... thanks....I have a short attention span..... anyway....I think the arm is acting as mine does. Another thought is that as you know, many records have a raised outer edge. If your arm is lowering too quickly, it will slide down this edge before the stylus can engage on to the enscribed music. Have you used a Fozgometer to zero in the arm? It will tell you if the stylus was mounted square in its attachment. I’ve seen so many cartridges even very expensive ones that were way off.....I think I also read of this problem on Audio Planet.....not saying yours is off....but a check might be prudent. |
@stringreen
I suggested this to check that the arm was mounted on a level base and there is no dominant drift in or out.
I have seen some TT’s where the armboard was not level and anti skate had to be very high to offset the drift.
From the video he does not have a problem with the arm - so that means alignment or other cartridge set up must be the issue.
I do notice that the arm tends to drift back to centre of the horizontal travel in and out - this could be an indicator of some force exerted by the internal wires.
@cabalaska
I went back through your posts again.
Does the skating to centre only occur when you first lower the arm ?
If so check that the arm lift lowers in time - lower the arm and check there is a gap between the lift and the bottom of the arm when the stylus reaches the record..
Sometimes if the armlift is too slow then when the stylus reaches the record, if it is not completely clear and the cartridge effectively is trying to track at less than the tracking force set because the armlift has not fully lowered.
You can check this by watching the gap between arm & lift lift when you lower the stylus.
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Stringreen:
Seven posts prior to your post at 10:59 on 4/15/2021, Dover asked me to do this experiment to see if the arm mount may be the source of the trouble in that perhaps it was mounted unlevel. See his post above. |
What is this demonstrating |
I tried the experiment suggested by Dover, here is the link to the video. Please let me know what you all think. https://youtu.be/0TGdq787Z80 |
mijostyn.....you seem to have a surfeit of opinion and not much awareness. I don’t need to be instructed on turntable setup, I’ve done it for over 40 years. I’ve personally owned an SME V. Grado Lab, ESL, Ortofon, Rega, Thorens, Helios, and probably other arms that don’t come readily to mind and have set up others. I write on these pages to relate information and thoughts that may or may not interest the audiophile community. I find things that may be out of the mainstream, but valuable never the less. With those that have a system that can discern the difference, I say that a/s does make a sonic difference...I just prefer no a/s and encourage others to experiment As for the value of the VPI arm....it actually is quite good: is easily adjustable in every parameter...and yes there is a sonic difference between the gimbaled version and the dual pivot. I prefer the dual pivot, so that is what I have. I know what misstracking sounds like, but with the hundreds of LP’s that I have, I don’t hear it. I thank those like MillerCarbon who introduced me to the Schumann Resonators....they are very helpful in my system...there are those like mijostyn that may scoff... |
@lewm, absolutely. It has always been arbitrary. I suppose that is why I like the spec of 9 to 11% of VTF. I know for certain what I am setting it to which is psychologically comforting. Certainly, skating is basically proportional to VTF. I think we all agree on that. Intervening factors such as modulation, geometry and a tiny degree speed move it one way or the other. I am not sure where the 9 to 11% figure comes from. I'll try to look into that. This all started with an Analog Planter review of the WallySkater which measures the anti skating force as a percentage of VTF. It is a flimsy plastic contraption (A nicely made one) that could be made in China for $10.00 but is sold for almost $300. So I set out to make a device with $45.00 worth of parts that would be easier to use and based it on the 9 to 10% figure Wally Tools uses. I'll get back.
@stringreen, I hate to tell you this but trying to put anti skating on that arm is like wrestling an alligator in a bathtub. You should trade it in for VPI's Gimbal Fat Boy tonearm. You will not hear much difference with or without anti skating until the right channel starts miss tracking on heavily modulated passages. You can overcome this by increasing VTF and thereby compound the problem of groove and record wear. Stare at the cantilever from the front of the tonearm. Line it up perfectly with the middle of the cartridge by adjusting your line of sight then lower the stylus onto the record with the lift. As the stylus contacts the record (this is with anti skate defeated) the cantilever will immediately appear to drift to the outside relative to the cartridge as it leans on the inside left channel groove wall. Does this seem like a good thing to you? |
If you can't hear a difference it makes no difference.
That statement is totally illogical. |
Lewn....what I'm writing in my post above is that when listening, I can clearly hear that when using skating with my VPI there is shrinking of stage, a closing of the spaces between the instruments, etc. This may be because of my specific tonearm...I don't have other tonearms to compare. I encourage all to listen to your system and determine for yourself the effects of using a/s or not. What I hear is subtle at first, but when recognized, it is quite clear. If you can't hear a difference it makes no difference. |
Mijo, my point is that most of us can’t know how much AS we’ve applied in terms of grams as a certain percentage of VTF. Even those old tonearms with numerical markings on the AS adjuster cannot be taken as units of anything. All one could say is that “5” is more than “4” unknown units of force. |
@cabalaska
Please do this test.
Remove platter.
Remove antiskate weight.
Balance the arm/cartridge to zero - so the arm is floating.
If the arm at zero balance, with no anti skate floats in or out then the arm mount is not level.
This could be the cause of your problem.
Often times turntable arm mounts are not on the same plane as the platter, which means if you level the platter the horizintal arm bearings are not level. |
@lewm , I did not say that skating will decrease linearly over the record. The force is waxing and waning depending on modulation. In average it decreases slightly towards the end of the record playing surface. If the arm could get to the spindle it would increase quite dramatically but not out in the run out groove. Skating is present everywhere and is in average substantial. As for the 10% of VTF that is not my figure. 9 to 11% is the range generally accepted by the industry and used to calibrate their devices. The Wallskater https://www.wallyanalog.com/wallyskater measures this in a clever (but expensive) way. I measure it directly just by turning the force 90 degrees into a stylus gauge. Not rocket science. I am taking it on faith that around 10% of VTF is a good place to be. It is a very difficult thing to ascertain. Just because a certain setting produces the lowest distortion on one test record does not mean it will do the same on any album. Somewhere in that area +- 10% seems reasonable. You can easily hear what happens if you stray to far one way or the other on any test record. At any rate it is nice to have a number to work to. That way I can make sure I am right on something I can not possibly be right on on? Don't get me started on VPI arms and no antiskating. That marketing stunt made sure I would never look at a VPI product. cabalaska, make sure that arm got mounted correctly and check the arm length and overhang!! |
cabalaska......My original Ortofon Winfield was internally wired incorrectly right out the new box...was quickly replaced. Ortofon is a great company, but sometimes things happen. If your problem persists, you might want someone to take a careful look at it. |
Dear cab , it is not quite the case that “most“ of us do not think anti-skate is necessary. It seems to me that stringreen is the only one of us who consistently maintains that anti-skate is unnecessary, and he is using a VPI tonearm, which is notorious for its lack of an anti-skate device as originally conceived and for not seeming to require AS, possibly because its wiring pulls the arm wand outward enough to provide suitable AS force . After that, there are a few who are agnostic about anti-skate. But the fact remains that if you are using a conventional pivoted tonearm that places the stylus tip overhanging the spindle, inevitably there will be a skating force all across the LP. Whether that force causes audible distortion or not, for sure it is placing a stress on the cantilever and stylus that might eventually make itself known in the form of aberrant premature stylus wear. I would add that Mijostyn is incorrect in saying that the skating force diminishes gradually as the stylus moves toward the spindle, implying that the decay is linear from outer to inner. In fact the skating force is varying all the time in a nonlinear manner and is near or at maximum at the innermost grooves, depending upon the alignment used. Furthermore, I don’t know where he got the rule that anti-skate should be equal to 10% of the VTF, if one could measure AS. I guess he is taking measurements with his invention. But none of us has access to his invention, so for any of us it would be impossible to follow that rule. However, I agree with the sentiment that one should try to use the minimum amount of anti-skate that works to produce an undistorted sound and no visible deflection of the cantilever . I would not use a grooveless LP for anything. But you probably know all this stuff. You are wondering why your own particular antiskate device seems to be either malfunctioning or not functioning at all. From your descriptions, and your responses, I too am at a loss. |
Cabalska, a likely problem is that the arm was installed incorrectly or the hole for the arm is out of spec. You have to measure the overhang. Check Pro-Jects spec for that arm. If the arm is located too close to the spindle it will skate incessantly. It the arm tube is longer than it should be the same thing will happen. Otherwise you have been doing all the right things. On a groove-less record the arm should drift slowly towards the spindle at the end of the record.
The anti skating force should be 10% of the VTF. The skating force will decrease slightly as you go towards the center of the record. It does not decrease at the null points. That is just lay instinct.
If the arm is in spec then somebodies math is wrong and you just add weight until you get the right effect. Or you could tell Pro-Ject that the table is defective and you would like another one. Actually measuring the anti skating force is possible but the devices to do it are either expensive (the WallySkater) or unavailable (my Gizmo). Trying to gauge your particular problem with a test record would be difficult but you could try it.
Lewm is correct in that without anti skating the right channel (outside) groove will miss-track and distort first, too much and the left or inside groove will distort first.
Although anti skating is a ball park proposition it is extremely important for stylus and record wear not to mention sound quality. As the force drifts to far one way or the other it pushes the cantilever into a non-linear zone where moving the stylus one way takes more force than moving it the other. It also displaces the coils, magnet or iron out of the center of the magnetic gap. Any asymmetry is unfavorable for stereo reproduction. If there is a reason straight tangential arms sound better the lack of any skating forces is a more likely candidate than a reduction in tracking error.
God luck in figuring it out. Most people would never have noticed there was a problem.
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With only a few notches just try them all and listen for the one that sounds best, this worked for me with a Naim Aro anyway which has a similar arrangement.
With a replicant stylus the VTA is pretty important to get right but you should haer when you land on the right setting, it might take some finding. |
millercarbon.
Thanks. your post gives me a lot to consider and makes sense. Agreed that the VTA on this arm is a PITA, but at least it's available whereas Rega's are not. I'm trying not to obsess over this as each day passes, but the nag is there in the background for now. I try to remind myself, that many of you who've been at this for a long time don't give much credence to AS and to the contrary find it sounds better w/o in some systems. I'm still weighing the pros cons and whether this arm reveals or hides with/ without. Either way, thanks again for all the feedback. It is much appreciated. |
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stringreen:
I'm sure it's not broken, bent etc. It's brand new and only has about 15 hours on it so far. I have inspected it under higher magnification and everything appears intact.
lewm:
but it is skating across the whole record--that is a blank record. Which tells me (with what little knowledge I've gleaned thus far) that there is no antiskating force in play. You said the grooveless record experiment is meaningless, and I agree it certainly isn't the same characteristic as if it were in the groove, but shouldn't there be some antiskate character being observed. I did this with my rega rp6 with 2m black and antiskate set to about 1.2 or so and it didn't slide all the way across the blank record--which led me to conclude the antiskate was in effect? no?
How would I go about checking the internal wiring? The wiring attaching to the cartridge appears loose and without a drag effect, but of course I can't see the inside. |
..one more thing.....are you sure your Ortofon is not bent/broken/etc. |
I stand corrected. The stylus is not sliding all the way across the LP, as I first thought. Based on the second paragraph of the OP and the third paragraph, I am beginning to wonder whether there is any problem at all. I don’t think it is so unusual for the stylus to jump a few millimeters from the edge of the record into the first band on the LP. The experiment with the groove less record is possibly meaningless. |
I think some may be exaggerating what @cabalaska issue is per his second paragraph of the original post. |
What strikes me is that the thing is behaving in a surprising way for the problem to be just lack of any AS. Any of us can null out his AS and play an LP; the stylus does not go skipping across the surface of the LP toward the spindle, as a result of applying zero AS. At worst, you will hear some distortion in the right channel with zero AS, but the cartridge should track OK. So, what else could this be? Is the internal tonearm wiring somehow putting a drag on the tonearm wand, pulling it inward? I dunno, but something like that is what I would look for. Step back and take a fresh look at the situation.
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MillerCarbon may have something here. What I hear is that with a/s, the spaces around the instruments are more filled in.....it may be resonance with the a/s device. (I have one of those VPI arms with 2nd pivot). Once you hear the effect, its hard not to recognize it. Looking at the stylus from directly in front of the cartridge, the stylus sits in the middle of the mounting....no deflection that one is likely to suspect w/o a/s. The system tracks anything that I have on LP without distortion on the left or right. I used MINT, and fozgometer to set up the system. |
I adjust my anti-skating by putting on a test LP that I got along with my Shure V15 cartridge sometime in the previous century. There's a decent-sized "track" on it where there are literally no grooves, just un-grooved vinyl. You put the needle onto the middle of the track and watch as the tonearm either drifts inward or outward. When it doesn't drift at all, that supposedly is the proper amount of anti-skate.
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MC, you are contradicting almost everything Peter Lederman states about anti-skating. I think I’ll follow Peter’s advice given his particular knowledge regarding such things. |
Nothing is ever just one thing. Especially not on records. You cannot have any anti-skate of any kind without some sort of mechanism. That mechanism whatever it is necessarily becomes an integral part of the whole cartridge/tone arm/turntable component. The whole shebang is oscillating and vibrating every which way.
Sometimes I think they put anti-skate on there just because so many people expect it. It does make a difference you can hear. But whether or not you do hear it, or your rig is even capable of letting you hear it, is another question. Meanwhile VTA, which definitely is a big deal and makes a huge difference, a lot of arms don't have it and even on some very not-cheap tables like yours they make it a PITA. Go figure.
Don't waste your time weighing and calculating. Total waste of time. The lever arm on that anti-skate device, if you know anything about leverage just look, it is crazy short. They make it short partly to save money, partly to avoid vibration issues (longer vibrates more) and partly to look good. Vast majority of guys want things to look a certain way. Not saying this is you, saying this is the manufacturer mentality. And yes I know what I'm talking about, I'm an advisor and consultant. Just so you know.
Your blank record thing is a common idea and trope. Yes you should probably have enough anti-skate that it stays put, or even moves slowly outwards. Skating forces are a combination of factors, one of which is groove drag. It should be obvious there's a lot less drag on a flat surface than in a groove. Also more drag in a heavily modulated groove than a silent one. The more you think about it the more you realize what a total tradeoff the whole thing is- and then knowing this hopefully lose a lot less sleep over it.
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bkeske:
Thanks. I will shoot them an email as you suggest. I watched Peter's video and read the explanation and that seemed logical to me as well, but unfortunately as you point out, there is no way to fine tune that with the "fishing pole" method--that's what it looks like to me, with a big piece of bait hanging off the wire! And my research earlier led me to conclude in agreement that antiskate should be set lower than the tracking force. Thanks again, I really appreciate any and all input. |
@cabalaska
I guess I would contact Pro-Ject, explain your issue. Perhaps they have a heavier weight they could send. But, as I, (and at least another have said), I’m in the camp that your anti-skate should never match your cart tracking force. Again, this on the recommendation of how Peter Lederman suggests adjusting it. And every cart I use that method, my anti-skate is a fraction of my tracking force.
But to your original query , yes, at times I’ve had my cart move towards the spindle when using the lever to lower the cart (I assume from anti-skate effect), and I’ve simply made adjustments on the position before lowering......or more-so now days, mostly lower it manually (with my hand vs the lever). That said, I’m a believer in how Peter suggests setting anti-skate, and my feeling is that would be hard to accomplish with the notch/string/weight method. Mine is a dial, and I can adjust by very small adjustments through a large range, not just three options. |
Thanks everyone for your replies. I address them below. Thanks!
millercarbon:
Thanks for the reply, info and encouragement. The antiskate weight is 3.485g (3.5g on their website). And yes I have noticed the kind of ski slope edge on some of the records which facilitate this accelerated slide, but it does the same if I place it in the space in between the run out grooves at the end of the record (where Peter from Soundsmith recommends assessing for antiskate). However I did as you suggested and it drops into the groove almost imperceptibly! But I want to be able to get back to my chair before the music starts!! Ha!
Before I read your post, I actually thought about the same and made a trip to Lowe's where I found some very small black washers (matched the color of the weight and very close diameter). I came home, weighed each and found them between 0.46g and 0.48g. So I added one by one and experimented on the blank side of record I have (Dave Grohl's Play has only one side) to see how much effect it had on slowing the skate across the record. I ended up adding four washers (roughly just under 2g) which only slowed the skate but not enough where the tonearm stops near the nullpoints. I listened and it still sounded good, but by this time it was late and I'll have to do more A/B later. Still makes me wonder why I have to do this anyway.
But it's interesting to know that there are manufacturer's who don't use antiskate and/or dismiss it as necessary? The physics of it seems logical to me that it need not be ignored, but what do I know? Many searches of this topic have revealed that many people don't use it all and have stated their systems sound better sans antiskate.
stringreen:
I wondered if the added weight didn't narrow the soundstage a bit, so I definitely will be A/B'ing as I said above. I wonder, does your cantilever appear slanted to the left from the skating forces pulling it towards the record? If so, will that cause damage over time?
oldhyvmec:
I checked the grooves and there is nothing sticky on them and changing from one groove to another had zero effect. Watching the Masters!
petg60:
I considered loosening the screw--as it does indeed unscrew--but to make enough of an effect, it seemed that it would have to loosen too much and therefore be moveable in its slot, i.e. subject to vibration and thus adding unwanted vibration to the arm.
bkeske:
yes I tried the other grooves to no avail. I wondered the same regarding this level of table/tonearm and the use of the string. But again, what do I know about any of this stuff... hence my questions and the need to learn.
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I am not familiar with your arm and cartridge but from the picture i can understand that the notched rod is a thumb screw, what happens if you unscrew it a bit (making sure it still remains firm). That would increase the AS force a bit.
Normally AS force should be much less than tracking weight and is not implemented mechanically the same way on differently designed arms.
Applying more AS is like adding more tracking force but to one channel only so your sound will be more closed in amongst others.
Here comes your observation that on Analogue test Lp with limited AS the sound is equal to your ears, so you do not need more of it.
G
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OP what happens when you move the adjustment to the other end of the 3 groves? Does the tracking get worse or better? There isn't any STUFF on the little bars is there. Not sticky or anything. The thread is smooth AND not sticky.. I'm sure you've checked..
I'm out of ideas.. IF it's hooked up correct and it is the correct weight.
Take up golfing. :-) |
No, the inner notches are less mechanical leverage, less anti-skate. The owner’s manual is right about that. This method is the same as my Origin Live Conqueror, only the attachment points and adjustments differ but it is the same basic design. It is hard to tell without seeing the weight to know how heavy it is but the whole thing looks like it can’t possibly have enough leverage unless the weight is pretty heavy. Which indeed seems to be the case, not enough anti-skate.
First, no worries you haven’t and won’t harm anything. Second, the test for anti-skate is listening and test tracks and it passes flying colors so that is another reason to know there is nothing to worry about. Finally, you are new to LP so in time will learn this, but some records are not perfectly flat all the way to the edge. Look real close you will see some are kind of thick at the edge then dip down before going flat. I think all that is happening is you have a couple of those, when the stylus comes down on that it hits a flat spot starts skating downhill as it were towards the center gains speed and maybe sometimes skips a bit at the beginning before settling down and all is well. I have one or two of these myself. Next time it happens, cue it back up, line it up to drop right where the music starts instead of the lead-in groove, lower carefully, then see what happens. I bet it plays just fine.
So I’m calling it good enough already and our assignment is to see if there is room to make it even better. Simple project, take one or two appropriately sized metal washers and slide the string through so one sits on top of your counterweight. Wala, you now have more anti-skate force! See if that helps. If you want more simply add another washer. If this works then look for prettier washers. If you even can see it. Looks to me like it will be pretty well hidden. Anyway, there you go, problem solved.
As to why, anti-skate is one of the less critical aspects of setup. Some really expensive tables like VPI use an even hokier and more lame setup if you can imagine that, and almost completely unadjustable as well. To top it all off, it uses the twisting torque of the phono leads. Hard to imagine a dumber method and people do sometimes have problems but that hasn’t slowed them down any, still one of the biggest most respected names around. If VPI don’t sweat it and I don’t sweat it probably you don’t need to either. |
I know that Im starting a war, but in MY system... with Ortofon Winfield, no a/s sounds better to me. A/s closes in and shortens the aural picture. |
I know this sounds counter intuitive, but have you tried using the two ‘outer’ grooves instead?
I’m surprised Pro-Ject utilized such a rudimentary method to set your anti-skate on this table......but....I have a Soundsmith Zephyr, and using Peter Lederman’s anti-skate technique, I typically have my anti-skate set for about 1/3 to 1/2 my actual tracking weight, or, when/where the stylus very very slowly moves towards to spindle.
May be worth a shot to try one of the inner notches. |
The link is to a pic... sorry if confusing. |
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-AkXg5D6fJYs/Uz2kIZnoJtI/AAAAAAAAX3k/aLy-9DpyaOw/s1600/Screen+Shot+2014-04...This is a pic of the back of the tonearm. If this link works, you will see the number "2" arrow pointing to the right. If you follow in that direction you will see a silver colored "pin" with three grooves in it sticking out from the black oval and to the right of the inverted bearing. Those three grooves are where the string attaches and then is looped over the silver bar with only one groove at its end which is found just up and next to the counterweight. The three grooves are specific for a range of VTF. The innermost groove is for VTF ranges 10-14mN, the second is for 15-19mN and the outer most groove is for 20mN and greater. This is where I have it attached. As I said, there is only one weight supplied and nothing is mentioned regarding the need for or the option to add more weight. But with this correctly in place, I do not appreciate any antiskate force being applied. |
oldhyvmec,
Thanks for the reply. Yes, I have confirmed that it's hooked up correctly.
Yes, new table to me.
Received it about a month ago but only obtained the cartridge about a week or so ago and finally got around to setting everything up.
The headshell is stock and I've quadruple checked the alignment, VTF, VTA etc. There is only ONE weight that comes with this tonearm for antiskate and it's adjusted according to the groove in which the string is placed. I have confirmed this placement as well.
As I'm kind of new to the world of complex set-up, I wouldn't know where there would be a place for dampening oil??
Not sure how to attach pictures? |
I can't see the anti skate CW very well, you're sure it's hooked up correctly?
Why would it just start doing that? Is it new? Your trying to set it up?
It has to have enough weight on the headshell end too.
It is the correct weight and in the right groves on the rods? You got pictures?..
I went through that KINDA, I just needed to get the weight and string in the right grove for the cart weight.. Dampening oil too, if there is a place, slows down the reaction time, to START skating.
Regards |
