HEAVY Platters. Metal or Plastic? Your personal Experiences

@ghdprentice I do not think you would do well with the Walker. Probably get tangled in the hoses. It proves there are humans that will by anything.

@twoleftears  There sure is a reason. It looks nice. I wonder if they will fall out if you turn it over?

@mglik  I think you'd better stick to the mats.

@mijostyn

😁 I think I would take that bet…. And it would be a blast to determine the winner. I did a lot of research before buying my Linn… one of the only contenders was a Soto… my research and my turntable expert both concurred that in this time Linn wins easily… I will admit to liking the Walker… it has vac. Hopefully at some point I can get one and figure out which of us would win. But I would win either way.

I bought a beautiful Woodsong Garrard 301. It came with a Tenuto gun metal mat.

Think it added several pounds to the machined Woodsong platter.

The Tenuto mat was outperformed by a Oracle acrylic mat. Which is now outperformed by my current titanium impregnated Oyaide mat. 
My understanding about mass of a platter is highly dependent on the overall design of the motor and TT.

There's got to be a reason they go to the bother of putting those extra weights there.

@ghdprentice, If I were a betting man I would say after using a table with vacuum clamping, insane speed stability and a very stable suspension,  the Linn will be on the chopping block. 

VPI has offered platters made of aluminum, aluminum damped with lead, lead-damped aluminum with a top layer of Delrin (yes Delrin, not Acrylic ;-), stainless steel with a top layer of Delrin, a 3-layer Delrin/stainless steel/Delrin sandwich, and finally solid Acrylic. Each platter has it's fans, with the stainless steel/Delrin version a particular favorite. I myself favour Delrin for the LP/platter interface. 

@mijostyn 

Thanks.

Honestly… if I complete the upgrades on my system, I actually did think a Sota Cosmos would be my next purchase. This would be purely for fun, since my digital end and analog end sound the same. But, it was one of the tables with real mystique from when I was young… it would be a hoot to own one. Also, at last I have two inputs into my phono stage.

Fortunately for myself, I have owned and do own TT's without any concerns for their Bearing, these mainly being Idler Drive.

The Vintage Japanese TT's took my interest by complete surprise, and I have not looked back.

The SP10 MkII was the first to get the complete overhaul by a friend who specialises with these, I know a substantial outlay is required to find a TT that betters the work that is done as part of the full overhaul on the SP10's Electronics and Mechanics.

It really is each to their own on such matters, I took to the concept many many years past, and have stayed close to the work being done by others.

The idea of 'off the shelf' seems like a compromise, being reliant on another's limited knowledge or Budget Constraints. There are those who do promote products with methods that appeal, but these also come on a TT with a very large purchase figure attached. I am without any doubt, that I am more than capable of having a equivalent or better produced at a much more affordable cost, most importantly, produced by individuals that are trusted as friends and for their skill sets.

It was the work done by Martin Bastin in the Late 1990's on a Garrard 401 that  introduced me to the real time benefits of having a little extra thought put into a Bearing Design.

When I parted with the 401 and brought in a PTP Solid 9, I had a Brand New Bearing Design used on this TT, that was a modern design concept when compared to the original. I am sure there are original Bearings in use today using the same design ideas, and are much the better in their function for it.

I am sort of a loner, with my attitude to a Turntables Bearing Design and thoughts on how to improve on very obvious Deficiencies. It is a road less travelled.

I have learnt more on this subject over time, through experiencing the work of the few that I know personally that do care for this area and are active in carrying out modifications.

When a Stylus is encountering a Bearing Design in use on a TT, that is specifically thought out for working for the benefit of the Stylus Interface with the LP, and not just as the usual passive ancillary to aid a rotation during the TT's operation.

There is a notable difference perceived, one that is not easy to describe, as the effect is not commonly encountered, which makes it difficult to select a description, the impression made is almost like a good effect emotion, the impact is felt and the attraction felt is indelible.

I have experienced this first hand on Idler Drives across the past few years, and the SP10 was even more impressive. I own but do not consider the Idler Drive the go to TT any more. 

Hence, the interest in Vintage Japanese and the collection of Japanese Vintage DD TT's that are to undergo a rethink for the assemblies in the Bearing Housings.

The last modern design TT, I have seen that has a bearing design that had got me wanting to receive a demonstration of it, has been a Kuzma Model, it has materials in use I am interested in, and has a variation in the method of assembly, which I have been intrigued by, but this would be a Belt Drive, and I really do not see myself going back to this as a Drive design.   

thanks everyone,

I always learn something, often many things when asking advice here.

I was not thinking about altering, rather the new offerings these days, and the marketing implications of thick, thicker, thickest ... plinth layer, layers, wedding cake.

and any preferences i.e. plastic or metal, or the Innovation metal/plastic sandwich.

btw, they are simply stacked, metal and plastic are not adhered to each other, which surprised me, but practically ... they are using their standard 70mm platter, and adding 15mm stainless steel below, and jacking up the support posts by 15mm.

@lohanimal  It sound like we are fully in agreement on this one.

@pindac I am an itinerate DIYer but wouldn't you rather buy a turntable with a decent bearing to start with?

@ghdprentice , very true but there is a point of severely diminishing returns. There is no turntable over $60,000 that I would ever go for even if I had unlimited funds. The market for tables I would go for is limited to two, the Basis Inspiration and the Dohmann Helix. Obviously that is a personal thing but you do have similar taste. I know the Linn very well. I owned two of them, long story. If you ever get the itch you really should look at the Sota Cosmos. 

Using a heavy platter does not concern myself, I have seen New POM Thrust Pads used on a Lenco Bearing, the Thrust Pads were run for an extensive run time for both a Stacked Platter and Single Platter.

The wear on the Thrust Pads was looking almost identical and definitely not in a condition to cause a concern. A PEEK Thrust Pad is even more wear resistant and would offer a longer service life, but as many Vintage TT owners today are happy to go into a Bearing Housing to carry out a basic service, swapping out Thrust Pads is seen to happen quite commonly.  

There 'is/has' been a trend to exchange OEM Platters for Heavy Gun Metal Platters on certain Brands/Models of Vintage Japanese Design TT's.

My experiences has shown there is always a concern for the state of the Bearing on these older TT's, especially the models that have unknown histories of usage and never had the Bearing Housing undergo any form of a inspection of the internals. The idea a Sintered Bronze Bush is able to keep the TT Bearing in a acceptable condition to perform after 30-40 Years, is in my view best left for the Flat Earth Types.

I have seen scribed Steel Balls at the Thrust Pad Interface, and wear on Bush Liners that have been allowing the Spindle to lean when in rotation, the eccentric rotation is not wanted, I have witnessed Spindles that are able to make a Tapping Noise when light finger pressure is exerted onto it. There are even reports of the condition of the Bearing Housing having abraded the Spindle. 

Considering adding a increased weight platter for many Vintage Designs is happening frequently and does have its followers.

I have the Heavy Platter option on the DP-80 and am content with the idea of using similar methods on other owned TT's, I am not too keen to use the TT's in any guise until I am able to carry out measures to improve on the conditions within the Bearing Housing. To date this allows for the use of the SP10 MkII with a overhauled Bearing Assembly and soon the latest TT to receive a bearing upgrade is on the Sony TTS 8000 will be ready in June if there are no unforeseen events to cause delay .

There are many approaches to turntable design… well implemented designs sound great. I used to have a heavy VPI turntable… sounded great. For the money really solid sound… but a bit lacking in detail. I have heard a TT with a 100pound solid granite platter… you had to spin it to get it going.  I now have a high end Linn… sprung table with a relatively light platter… it sounds better… but it also cost four times as much.

A turntable is a system and the sound coming out is contingent on all its components. Probably best to listen to stuff in your price range and not concentrate too much on one aspect. I have in general found the best guide to the sound quality is cost. Particularly with turntables over $5K. It is a highly competitive field.

@wturkey 

@mijostyn 

@pindac 

Bigger and heavier doesn't necessarily mean better. Within a specific design that relies on mass to iron our speed inflections due to the pole switching on a motor then yes. Likewise that same platter can in facts absorb spurious resonance.

However the EMT 950 has a very light plinth something like 200 grams - the logic and their analogy is that the platter is like a sports car driving up a hill overcoming corners etc. as such a light weight is better able to overcome those ripples. That said the plinth/frame weights a ton and it has incredible speed control.

Then there is the Grand Prix and Rega Naid which are both designs based on low energy storage using intelligent speed controls to overcome speed ripple effects.

My point is that bigger is not necessarily better. It's about implementation and the overall design. Think of it like food - just saying adding sugar improves the flavour - no good if you are eating lamb chops or steak.

@wturkey , Yes, the platter has to have a reasonable gyroscopic effect to smooth out speed imperfections. Even DD tables are using heavier platters now. However there is such a thing as too heavy for standard bearing arrangements because the heavier the platter the faster is bearing wear. Exceptions are tables with magnetic thrust bearings and air bearing thrust mechanisms. Very heavy platters create other problems. Because they are harder to accelerate and stop belt wear is faster. If they are not perfectly balanced and leveled they will wear out the bearing sleeve. Only the Kuzma air bearing table would be immune to this and indeed Frank almost doubles the mass of the platter. He still does not have vacuum clamping. He is obviously convinced that reflex clamping is good enough.

At any rate. I personally think anything over 20 lb is a waste. There are many turntables with lighter platters that have SOTA speed specs. The Sota turntable is special because it corrects speed deviations slowly so you do not hear it happening and the speed will remain stable to 0.003 rpm. Sota is so brazen that the Condor displays speed in real time down to 0.001 rpm. At this moment it is reading 33.335 rpm. The platter weights 20 lb I think. 

thanks for the responses.

We have been looking at Clearaudio. Their Innovation has 3 Platter Variations: Basic 40mm plastic; Compact 70mm plastic; Innovation (Innovation Wood variation) 15mm stainless steel platter below the 70mm plastic: 85mm total.

Instinct says thicker/heavier/both plastic and metal better!!!

..............................

pindac

that's some serious weight, the bass has to be awesome.

My best bass came from my Thorens TD124, just under 8 lbs cast platter. The superfine fit of the shaft into the bearing was beyond amazing, it took quite a while for the air to get out allowing the platter to decend. When I watch manufacturers videos and see them put the platters in, they descend completely within seconds.

If you have ever left the room, come back, Thorens still not all the way down, you just smile. Were the Garrard 301 and 4001 bearing tolerances that refined?

I have a DP-80 with a Platter that has a Gun Metal Platter in place of the original, but I am not able to inform you how that presents in comparison to a Standard Design Platter, I can do this, but have not taken the time to do so.

I also have a Gun Metal Platter Mat and a Duraluminium Technihard Platter Mat that both add weight and am very impressed with these as Mats. These obviously add a noticeably increased weight to a Platter.

I am most settled with a LP replay on my system, in my listening environment, when the LP is on a Metal Mat and has a 1.4Kg Spindle Weight upon it.  

I have still got interest for other TT's the DP-80 Gun Metal Platter can be modified for furthering trials and it will be usable on a SP10 MkII. I also have a CAD Drawing to produce a replacement SP10 MkII Platter in a Metal such as SS or Gun Metal, it could even be Acetal. The replacement Platter idea is on hold at present as there are positive reports of producers of such alternative Platters, that make it known a Acetal Disc mechanically fastened to the OEM Platter has produced very similar results and is a very cost effective method to attain improvement.

I now own Three Spare OEM Platters to carry out Trials with. One will also have a Densified Wood used as the mechanically fastened Disc.

My encouraging work to be done with Platters, has prompted a friend to learn how to produce a Kaneta Design SP10 MkII, and then will produce a bespoke Platter design out of Acetal . As the concept it is looking likely to also incorporate a designed in peripheral ring, to clamp down the LP and be used to balance the Platter.

You are not alone in the idea of trying different types of Platter. 🖖

More mass = more better. Your mileage may vary. This experience is related to VPI and U-turn tables. The VPI is a sandwich type. The U-turn was an acrylic type.