Haven't personally talked with an engineer, but I did write a letter to Jack Renner (of Telarc Records fame) asking why he used different ADS monitor speakers, and B&W speakers. He wrote a nice reply, stating that when recording in Europe, their engineer there preferred B & W speakers. As far as ADS, they were using L1530's and L1590's at the time, and I was curious as to why. He replied that they liked the 1530 very much, but were looking for something newer. The 1590 was a bit lacking in low bass, and he said they were looking at using a subwoofer. He was very cordial and pleasant. I still have that letter!
Have you ever spoken with a designer or audio engineer
I'll never forget I was doing an audio banquet some years past. At my table were 2 audio engineers. At the banquet they had a lottery for audio accessories. I happen to win a power cord from a fairly well known companies. One of the engineers laughed when I was showing it to people at my table. He said power cords are totally hocus pouch and there is no scientific studies proving there any better than stock cords. He said there basically made for insecure audiophiles. I had mentioned I already had some after markets cords in my system and they definitely made an improvement. He just laughed and said a sucker is born everyday in the audiophile world.
Now the guy I am talking about isn't some unknown schlub. He works for one of the biggest high-end companies in the world and is fairly well known. In fact some people think he is a great designer of audio equipment. I have only talked to a couple of audio engineers in my life and they were both skeptical. I wonder if this is common among engineers and designers?
Now the guy I am talking about isn't some unknown schlub. He works for one of the biggest high-end companies in the world and is fairly well known. In fact some people think he is a great designer of audio equipment. I have only talked to a couple of audio engineers in my life and they were both skeptical. I wonder if this is common among engineers and designers?
56 responses Add your response
I repeat, from earlier in the thread, "Amp designers are the worst, Jerry, the worst! They are at least two paradigm shifts behind the power curve. Sad, really. It comes from putting blind faith in audio circuits and being close minded to any other way of thinking. Happens all the time." seasons greetings |
I too would wonder why Roger elicits such animosity from some audiophiles, Chris, but your quotes from the RM-10 manual reminded me! He does not bow down at the altar of high end boutique parts. I believe it is as simple as that. In an interview, Tim de Paravicini of EAR-Yoshino was asked whether or not he was a "tweak", and he responded vigorously that he most certainly was not, he was too much of a professional engineer to be so. Roger and Tim seem to be able to make excellent sounding electronics with garden-variety parts, but designers/manufactures who use boutique parts do so too. But you're right Chris, Roger takes reliability very seriously. He started his career fixing broken electronics, and learned all the wrong ways to design and build an amp! |
Bdp24......Roger Modjeski, apparently a polarizing figure here.....:^) I wonder why so polarizing ? taken from Page 2 - RM10 owners manual - Roger’s design section. My design career began at age 11 when I built my first 3 tube, class A single ended amplifier. I still have the thing that is capable of about 3 watts. Its description reads like a $5000 amplifier that the high-end magazines might cover today. Should I send it in for review ? LOL - hah hah hah ... Bdp24 Regarding the discusses of any Axes to Grind in regards to these Fuses ? I will say that those that understand to a certain level Roger’s past history; and it is easy to discover. Just read the RM10 owners manual design section; know that he is big into reliability, and can’t stand products that fail prematurely. Now everyone has button/s that if you push, cause a reaction. Someone defeating Roger’s amp’s design to cause failure may have been a button. Ok now you guys made me pull out my RM10 manual again :^) Some verbage from just pages 2 -3. After installing my select brand of low noise resistors as applied in the critical sections of your rm10, the noise faded into oblivion. Many of the current audiophile resistors are chosen on the basis of their high price or exotic materials. Often by people who do not understand noise mechanisms. Their makers are often concerned with precision and other characteristics that non-audio related applications require . I have not found low noise to be one of them. Lesson two, expensive resistors are not always the best. did I already say - I really like his sense of humor ? His polarizing personality aside, I am not into buying audio products to make my friends happy. Once the product comes through my door it becomes mine, including any problems that might come up. The last thing I want to do is ship a product from Canada to California for repair. Unless its January and I am along for the ride. Again.. as to whether there are any axes to grind in this case...with the Fuses.... who knows... I just ask those reading this thread to think about something. When someone puts this much detail, effort and focus on the type of fuse that goes into his amps. What is that saying about the actual amp’s design, detail, execution ? |
There may be one---I'm sure Roger would prefer the owner of the Music Reference RM-9 that sent the amp in for repair (a result of the eight $49 Hi-Fi Tuning fuses the owner had installed on the output power tubes in the amp not performing as they should but don't---the very reason for Roger's warning about them) had spent spend the $400 ($400---on fuses?!) on more MR product rather than the fuses! Then there was the approximately $400 in replacement tubes and $350 to repair the amp, all because the Hi-Fi Tuning Fuses failed to act in the manner they are supposed to---to blow when they need to, the very reason for fuses. If you want a power amp without fused tubes, buy an Audio Research! The design and construction of the Hi-Fi Tuning fuse prevents it from performing it's intended function when put in the signal path of an output power tube. And what's worse, the manufacturer does not appear to be aware of what performance characteristics a fuse must possess to make it appropriate for that application! That's all Roger's warning was about---very simple. If that's not of interest or significance to you, you're free to ignore the warning. But to impugn Roger Modjeski's intentions? |
Are they trying to say HiFi Tuning Fuses? Who knows? If it’s HiFi Tuning, that German company has been around like forever as has Isoclean from Japan, whose fuses actually ARE UL approved btw) and actually has data sheets on the HiFi Tuning website illustrating directionality of fuses and the measured effects of cryogenic treatment of fuses as well as measured differences among some well known brands of fuses. Are they (Audiocircle and Roger) trying to say that many aftermarket fuses are not UL approved. We already knew that. Duh? This is all a tempest in a teapot most likely and a favorite subject for the uber skeptics ever since aftermarket fuses appeared what 20 years ago? And ever since the whole subject of wire directionality reared it's ugly head. There appears to be quite a lot of misinformation and disinformation floating around out there. I suspect Roger Modjeski probably actually does have an ax to grind. Who knows what it is? |
Bdp24, I am wondering if all tuning fuses are created the same? Are they all made by the same manufacturer and sourced out to the individual companies that make them? I understand what Roger is saying. What I don't know is the background information I posed from my first paragraph. I think some deeper research is necessary at this time. |
And thanks to ct0517 for providing the link! Taters, you have proven you are sincerely interested in hearing the truth about the Tuning Fuses, as unpopular as that truth may be here on Audiogon. And intellectually honest enough to actually consider what Roger Modjeski, apparently a polarizing figure here, has to say about them. Roger took the trouble to investigate the fuses and share what he discovered, and all we have to do is read what that discovery was. I really don't know what to say to anyone who claims to care about the subject but either can't be bothered to read the thread, or worse, refuses to, for whatever reason. I realize Roger's skepticism (at least!) of many audiophile notions precludes him from being an audiophile "darling", but he is seriously knowledgeable about tubes, circuits, and amplifier design. He has no axe to grind on the subject of fuses---he doesn't make and sell them. But he knows a design problem when he sees it, and he sees one in the Tuning Fuse. Why would anyone take a defensive position about that without even bothering to read what the problem Roger found was? I don't get it. |
I have met the designers of my electronics - Jarek Waszczyszyn of Ancient Audio - and speakers - Sean Casey of Zu Audio. (Also Vu Hoang of Deja Vu Audio when I owned one of his amplifiers.) It is one of the pleasures of this hobby and dealing with smaller companies. All three were (and continue to be) very generous with their time, knowledge, and experience. Jarek customized my electronics, and Sean personally set up my Def 4s. |
Incapable of performing it's function. What ARE you going on about? There is no such issue with aftermarket fuses. If amps were blowing up do you really think the company could remain in business? Give me a break. Now, can a customer put the wrong fuse in? Of course. But he can with any fuse, aftermarket or off the shelf. This is all some silly Old Wives Tale. |
Thanks Chris. I really gotta learn how to insert a link into a post! I found Roger's warning about using the Tuning Fuses on power tubes and in the amp the tubes are in very, very important. Whether a fuse sounds different/better is a question separate from whether or not it actually works as a fuse. I don't consider Roger's findings on a fuse's ability at acting as a fuse is supposed to at any way unaudiophilic. An amplifier damaged by a fuse incapable of performing it's given task will "sound" very much worse than the same amplifier with a stock fuse ;-). |
So thinking about Audio Designers and Fuses this morning. Yeah, a boring looking day but still no snow and we will hit double digits again today Celsius. Not cold so I will take it. Coffee starting to kick in..8^0 The guys on these fuse threads seem to be having a lot of fun. I like to have fun too. I want to ask them a couple of questions directly on those threads but I don’t dare; you see I have owned an amp that committed suicide due to a "no fuse" and "no protection" design years ago. My skepticism and doubt, I fear, will become too obvious so I will ask here instead in a third party kind of way. Disclosure. My career line of work is Business Continuity Planning. So I am I guess a little biased. Anyway it’s healthy to let it out. 1) Are the "fuse" effects some are hearing any different from moving your speakers in or out. Toe in-out, forward or back; or your listening chair back or forward? 2) Am I reading right ? Some are putting these fuses in a $20,000 70 lb amplifier still under warranty; which if it experiences a failure even with a cheap resistor, will need to be shipped across the country, and maybe even have to go through customs ? (Re: Music Reference) You know I own two of Rogers amps. I guess this makes me a kind of fan. Over the years when I have contacted boutique amplifier makers near me about their product, I have had offers from some to bring their amps over for me to compare. But you know what; I think it was more for them to compare. I don’t dare ask Rogers’ permission to try this in one of my MR amps else risk his wrath. Mind you my RM9 has been so modified over the years.....still. These are the fuses contained in the Music Reference amplifiers. http://www.littelfuse.com/data/en/data_sheets/littelfuse_fuse_215_series.pdf the Fuse thread Bdp24 referenced. http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=ui1k9vdahb93345kn9urh39hd0&topic=105425.0 Roger Modjeski ?? You know... I do know of this one guy; his system kit is hardwired from one end to the other including its branches - no fuses at all. and then .... there is this other amp I own - this big, heavy thing called Krell. It has no fuses the last time I looked. What’s up with that Dan D’Agostino? How boring is that? |
Actually knghifi, Roger in more than skeptical of boutique fuses, he warns against their use in power amps. He tested some of the Hi-Fi Tuning ones, and discussed their design with the U.S. distributor. Roger discovered that, regardless of whether or not they "sound better" than garden variety fuses, they in some circumstances do not even do what a fuse is supposed to do. In his report, he explains exactly what he found wrong with them. You can read the report on the Music Reference Audiocircle Forum, where "Tuning Fuses" is a sticky topic. |
The frustrating thing about the Quad 57s is how good they sound when they’re placed on stands and the grills and dust covers (Mylar) are removed. Otherwise, relatively speaking of course, they buzz and rattle, have no dynamics or bass and sit too low on the floor. I mean, have you ever taken a close look at the grills? There's hardly anywhere for the sound to come out. As an old philosopher once said, Everything’s relative. The closer to the bone the sweeter the meat. - Old audiophile expression Greeting Seasonings |
I had Quads for a while. One of the most ill conceived designs ever. Now I ask you, why would ANYBODY put a thick almost solid metal grill over BOTH SIDES OF an electrostatic speaker? And to add insult to injury a Mylar sheet is placed over both sides of the electrostatic elements. Plus, the Quads need to be up on stands instead of just sitting there like room heaters. Result? No dynamics and no bass. And the whole thing rattles like a box full of rocks. Hel-loo! |
geoffkait. well sure Power corrupts....absolute Power corrupts .....(all together now) Most posts here seem to centered around amplifiers ? ************ from the Ross Walker interview http://www.onethingaudio.webspace.virginmedia.com/FOR/QUA/GEN/9512-QUA-GEN-HIS-RW.htm Do you try to appeal to the audiophile market? makes me smile every time I read it. *********** Charles1dad- Charles1dad - can you give an example of each please? *********** Acman3 wow ...all that work Acman3. Then their products get placed into rooms and spaces that all different dimensions, different gear, treatments, humidity and temp levels, audiophile mood levels, etc... *********** taters......congratulations. perfect timing for all these posts. On the first day of Audiophilia .....- my true love gave to me - Cheap audio cables.... On the second day.... |
looking around my room at my gear; there are only 5 pieces of gear where i have not personally known the designer/engineer/builder of the gear and spoken to them a number of times. my Ortofon MC Anna cartridge, my 2 Studer A-820 master recorders, Herzan active isolation shelves, Entreq grounding boxes and my Furutech GTX-D(R) duplex outlets. I know all the other gear's designers (and they know me); speakers, amps, preamp, tt, tone arms, digital dacs, power cables, interconnects, speaker cables, tape repro, system power grid isolation transformer, record cleaner, even the rack and decoupling footers. i know all those people and appreciate their perspectives and passion for their products. these designers have the technical chops and degrees; but also they all love music.....passionately. and they 'get it'. |
Many/most engineers believe there is no difference because your brain runs the show and above all tries to maintain a stasis .Changing a core belief for someone whose life is centered around learned "facts" can upset same stasis and the brain will not let you hear the difference . Simple example for our society. No hard-core racist has ever been converted by facts . |
No sooner had I posted the directly above, than I realized my comments about Bill Johnson and ARC might well bring out the knee-jerk ARC defenders. I in no way meant to denigrade Bill's design talents (he is single-handedly responsible for high end electronics as we know them, imo), or to imply Roger (or Van Alstine, or anyone else) is the "better" engineer. What I was attempting to do was draw a distinction between the traditional EE designer and the designer at a high end audiophile company, and the considerations the latter has to take into account in his designs. I do think it possible Bill (and Rich Larsen, as well as designers at other audiophile companies) incorporated some audiophile-credibility features in ARC products he knew provided no sonic advantage, for merely marketing reasons. That's mere conjecture on my part, of course! |
Audio engineers and designers are not all cut from the same cloth. Some are rigid in their beliefs and feel the notion of tweaks or upgradeded parts and accessories are pure foolishnes and money wasted. Yet others who are just as talented and knowledgeable will openly encourage and embrace the merits of upgrading. They will tell you that different tubes, cables, capacitors, fuses, vibration control devices etc all make a difference. Just depends on who you are talking to. When you've actually done the upgrades and modifications and hear the improvement yourself then what others have to say is moot anyway. Charles, |
oregonpapa---Bill Johnson, though a "progressive" engineer (listening tests playing a large role in the development and evaluation of a new design/product), was also pretty traditional/conservative, being more of an EE type than a lot of high end designers (some of whom are not formally educated engineers, but advanced audiophiles---formerly lawyers, for instance). I had not ruled out ARC's use of Shunyata power cords at CES and consumer shows (as well as the chassis damping employed in the SE version of some of the LS pre-amps) as a cynical move to keep audiophile credibility with, for instance, the reviewers and readers of The Absolute Sound and Positive Feedback, who seem particularly influenced by that kind of thing in their perception of a company and the sound of it's products. Roger Modjeski, in contrast, though much younger than Bill, is much more of an academic and old school degreed EE designer, who first evaluates a design with a close inspection of it's schematic, then extensive bench tests to expose any weakness or problem behavior in a circuit, listening to it only after it has passed those hurdles. Roger couldn't care less about reviewers (he has stated making amplifiers is of much less interest to him than is designing them, perhaps why Music Reference has such a low profile) or audiophile credibility-insecure consumers, and is willing to sacrifice sales and ac to remain intellectually honest. I know Frank Van Alstine feels the same. |
^^^ Ah, but that wasn't always the case with ARC and power cords, bdp24. In fact, they were late to the game with the removable power cords. For example, my Classic 60 and SP-14 had hard wired cords. ARC, through the years, has been a very conservative company. I think the removable power cords and the dampening material took some convincing. |
And I think Jeff Rowland used to recommend Cardas power cords for his amps, don't know how he is doing now about this. The reason is very clear, bdp24, they are all trying to bullsh-t us and possibly themselves, there is nothing 'honest' about whatever they say. Not that we should care. We listen and we like what we like, their opinion means exactly..you know what. We pay and they serve us, and that appears to be just fine with them. And with us. So everyone is happy. Isn't it nice? |
Bill Johnson (Audio Research) was a good engineer who used and recommended Shunyata cords for his electronics. Roger Modjeski (Music Reference) is also a good engineer, and is a power cord skeptic. Roger's electronics are very transparent, and is now making an electrostatic loudspeaker, known for their transparency. I don't know the reason for their honest difference of opinion. |
Here's another troll coming. Some of the designers of so-called hi-end gear have no idea how things should sound. And I couldn't care less about either their thoughts on the subject or even less than that about their feelings. Audiogon is full of advanced personalities too. None of this really concerns me. Just leave the man alone, you hyenas. |
