Has anyone made the jump to $uper High end and were disappointed?

Thanks for the reply analogluvr.  I think it would take a very experienced audiophile to put that system together.  It's not a system that someone just getting into good sound or even myself, with some experience, would put together.  It is inexpensive by audiophile standards, though.

I think there is a great potential to be disappointed with a really high end system. I think speakers can be the biggest culprit. To me large speakers often sound like PA systems. 

I guess you can figure it out for yourself by looking at the ads for really expensive speakers on Audiogon. If they weren't disappointed they wouldn't sell the damn things.

Best
Jim
Dealer of the decade.

Somehow I doubt that the supposed "rich people," based on those I've  known anyway, have the time to really listen to music because for them it's an insane hustle all the time, often tempered by wondering if you're getting ripped off by somebody. The act of tossing money at the latest extreme bit of gear they think they need is actually sort of sad since, of course, you can't take it with you.

The Ultra High-End is for people that love music and have the money to purchase what ever they want. It cost a lot of money to hear incremental improvements. In general I think being an "audiophile" at any level is a pretty lonely hobby and very, very few purchase with the intent to brag about their systems.

Someone tell me why I am supposed to be super impressed with very expensive gear. To me it doesn't sound as good as some simpler less expensive equipment. 

Wolf......I am so disappointed to hear, I won't be able to take it with me. My kids wouldn't know what to do with it. 

Jim
Temporary dealer of the month. Look to next month for a better dealer. 

Rich people are music lovers, enjoy hobbies, etc just like anyone else. Your available funds will dictate how far one goes into their interests and what youbdo. The multi million dollar rich person may tinker with $700,000 stereos, exotic cars, art. Thats the world they live.

Just like many of us dabble mid fi systems and may have saved a few yesrs to purchase a nice convertible. Thats the world I live

The minimum wage audiophile may be only able to save for a nice set of headphones and player.

Abery

I think it is my job as a dealer to make audiophiles feel insecure about their systems. I don't take that job to seriously however. Probably won't be dealer of the month next month. 

" perfection is the enemy of good enough " 

Necessity is the mother of invention. - Old audiophile axiom

A rich man has about as much chance of getting into Audio Nirvana as a camel 🐫 has of passing through the eye 👁 of a needle. - Old audiophile axiom

Sine there is no final destination you might as well enjoy the trip. - Old audiophile axiom

geoffkait 

I think you are quoting Jesus arm't you. Don't think he made it to audio nirvana either. 

I might guess that many audiophiles feel like they have been on the cross. 

I think it’s all relative, we find joy in our respective systems and budgets.

It’s true that unless you join some audio geek club someplace, very few care about the new tube you bought or how great your system sounds. Doesn’t bother me one bit however as I have enough fun with the stuff as to render outside opinions irrelevant (unless they completely agree with me).

The great thing about living in 2017 is that there are so much more options to control sound and create a level in realims what was not even possible in the past.

But regardless money facts still proof that most products and also brands do miss essential parts which are needed to create an audiosystem what is able to reveal all the information of a recording

Money does not garantee you anything in audio. And also for ’Highend’ you do not get a stunning level based on the price it cost. I talked this year to different people who work in audio for a long time and also visited The CES this year. Highend is changing and it is not that possitive many said. They all see the decreasing market.

It proofs that they way both sound&vision are done all over the world needs to change. The average age on audioshows also proof that the ’new’ generation is a lot less interested in both sound&vision.

I visited Munic ’Highend’ 2 times and I will visited it next year again. I was surprised about the limited knowledge and insight of the people who gave the demoes. Many are just business people.

Over 90% of all the demoes where given in a 2D stage. People can hear in a 3D spectrum. So when you want to play audio at a high level it needs to be able to create a stunning 3D holographic stage. In all other situations you are not even allowed to use the word ’highend’

But.....there is a much bigger problem in audio than the lack of a 3D stage. Many digital sources, dacs and products are not able to create a good level in diversity in sound.

Diversity in sound is the essential part of music what influences our emotion during listening to our music. Because based on facts we humans do not feel a lot of emotion when we hear to music and sound what lacks diversity in sound.

This is what is needed to get excited, intense and emotional. Because this is how our emotion works. At shows people often have no idea what the reason is why most demoes are not able to make them excited.

The most common reaction during shows is the fact that people miss the real emotion of most systems at an audioshow.

When you do not understand both sound and music, you never will understand audio. This is the key part where it all goes wrong. To control and guide your system you need to understand why the stage and sound is what you hear.

For this you need to know and understand all the different properties of sound, the acoustics and the other parts who negative influences the sound and stage.

There is no other way to understand it and create the sound and stage you would like to get. Because the way audio is done all over the world is by trial and error. This is like Russian Roulette.

When you change a loudspeaker, cable, amp, source etc by another one. You need to understand first which properties you took out by changing it to another product. And which properties you brought in when you changed it.

Because the sound and stage of your system at home is being created by all the properties of all the parts togheter, the acoustics and the other parts who negative influences the sound and stage.

This proofs how complex sound is. And for a good result you need a system what owns all the different properties sound is being formed at.

When an audio system can reveal more different properties it will be able to create a higher level in emotion for each single person. Because all the different properties of sound can influence our emotion.

This is why ’highend’ does not garantee you anthing. Because people focus on brands and products. In most situations this will not create a sound and stage what will be so exciting that you want to listen to it day by day.

You need the right properties to come as close as possible to how music sound in real and how it is being projected in space. And again most products and brands proof on facts that they miss essential parts of sound.

It doesn’t matter which combination you will make, the sound and stage will be incomplete. All people will feel and experience a much lower level in emotion and intensity during listening to music.

Because you need an audiosystem what can reveal all the information of the recording. Because all the emotion of music is on the recording.

This means you need an audiosystem what can reveal all the layers and information of the recording.

We see and hear that when music is being played with all the layers and properties people become excited and many even emotional.

This is what you need to make the ’new’ generation also interested in audio. We humans are always  looking for emotion. No incomplete audio system will ever be used and liked by any person for a long period.

Yeah man: "It doesn’t matter which combination you will make, the sound and stage will be incomplete. All people will feel and experience a much lower level in emotion and intensity during listening to music." Ya know…I miss you Bo…nobody, and I mean nobody in this forum says things like that. At length. In long posts. Nobody. It’s like the old saying I just made up, "You can’t have nobody without Bo."

It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy that the more one spends on audio the better the sound quality. The audio industry is like the car industry. The price of cars keeps going up. It’s an economic reality - businesses must continually EXPAND in customers and income. The auto industry has figured out that people will spend increasing large amounts of money on what is essentially the same product. The trick is to promote each new car model as new and improved. Whether it’s true or not. The audio industry has figured out the same thing.

There are two high ends for audio. One is in the solid grip of upgraditis, that one tends to be solidly Anti Tweak, believing that the secret to sound quality is the electronic circuit, expensive parts and “solid engineering” - in quotes. The other high end is more of a tweak-oriented group, focused on improving the sound through cleverness and thoughtfulness. THIS high end operates by assessing the weaknesses in the audio system and coming up with solutions. You know, the group that doesn’t read reviews any more. The ones who don’t buy Stereophile or The Absolute Sound anymore.

The entire premise of the OP is sort of funny…and I doubt the act of "jumping to Super High End" is what anybody actually does, except for a tiny minority of wealthy sales pressure victims. Tiny. Reading magazine reviews without a basis in the reality of "It's a Magazine Review" seems rare except for the foolish, and in spite of Kaitie's comment I think the magazines are still interesting and alert people to what's out there. There are plenty of people who take forum posts too seriously and buy into nonsense (bags of pebbles, magic fuses)…but that's generally harmless also.

@geoffkait 

"There are two high ends for audio. One is in the solid grip of upgraditis, that one tends to be solidly Anti Tweak, believing that the secret to sound quality is the electronic circuit, expensive parts and “solid engineering” - in quotes. The other high end is more of a tweak-oriented group, focused on improving the sound through cleverness and thoughtfulness. THIS high end operates by assessing the weaknesses in the audio system and coming up with solutions. You know, the group that doesn’t read reviews any more. The ones who don’t buy Stereophile or The Absolute Sound anymore."

Exactamente

@ivan_nosnibor 

While I'll agree that @geoffkait post is more accurate and thought out than many of his other posts, to some extent it is not entirely correct because there is yet a third (that I can think of, perhaps there are more) high-ends for audio.

The third condition combines elements of both high-ends as indicated in his description.

Ricred1. My opinion is Jeff’s change has nothing to do with “sound quality” and is rather the same old, same old of everyone who enjoys writing, critiquing, expounding — ie attracting more audience <•> <•> — or advertisers € £ ¥. Again there’s little New in these rather pedestrian callings. But I’m here watching too - a little porny ?? Ahem. Sorry. Corny - that’s the word I’m looking for ;)

The thing what I hope people will learn and understand is that trial en error does not garantee you anything. Regardless price, even highend products and brands do not garantee you anything either.

Shows and many shops proof that they do not understand sound and music. So you need to start where it begins. And that is music. From this you need to learn to use audio from a different perspective.

When people all keep on focusing on products and brands they will limit themselves until the end. You need a mindset to understand that there is a much better way of creating an audiosystem what will be more complete and more sounding as in real.

The emotion of music needs to be revealed by your system at home. Systems created by trial and error proof on facts that they are incomplete. It is a 100% illusion to believe that an audio system created by trial and error is a personal thing. And that this will create the best results for you.

In over 8 years we proved that each system what went from 2D to 3D make a huge difference in how often a person uses his system. Because we read a lot about how our emotion works. And especially regarding music.

Another big step we made was focusing on diversity in sound. And this also makes a huge difference in how music is being experienced.

At the end emotion is what music is. So this is what your systems need to be able to create and reveal. When you compare and test many products as we did, the facts proof that many products will never be able to create all the properties of sound.

The main reason for this is that the people who create them have less insight and knowledge about music either. In can garantee you all overhere at Audiogon that at the end it has nothing to do with money. More money does not garantee you a better result at all. But....using the right properties will.

Because you can create even systems for reasonable prices which many of you overhere can afford. When you create products on properties it is a lot more easy to create a much higher level for the same kind of money by trial and error.

The other thing what is needed are DSP roomacoustsic systems for all people. They will make a big difference and will bring the quality in both sound and realism to a much higher level.

The acoustics of rooms limit the endresults a lot. When I see and hear how limited the insight and knowledge is in this part it proofs that most people still think it is 1980.

@gdhal 

"While I'll agree that @geoffkait post is more accurate and thought out than many of his other posts, to some extent it is not entirely correct because there is yet a third (that I can think of, perhaps there are more) high-ends for audio.

The third condition combines elements of both high-ends as indicated in his description."  

Oh, I can buy that...there's usually a middle ground of some kind.

Regards
John

@bo1972 

"The thing what I hope people will learn and understand is that trial en error does not garantee you anything."

It's ok, bo...it doesn't guarantee anything. I think that's why they call it trial and error. 

Just sayin'

Correcto Mundo! Nobody ever said trial and error was a good idea. I have said it wasn’t a good idea like forever for speaker placement. You have to have a method. Trial and error is like trying to solve N simultaneous equations in N + x unknowns. The best you can hope for is finding local maximums. And that’s if you’re lucky.

Tru-Fi is a different and more effective way to create an audiosystem. But when you focus on brands we use and think I did not find these products were that special, you are probable right.

A Monitor Audio loudspeaker in any trial and error shop is not the same product as it is in a Tru-Fi system. Based on the fact that these dealers can only use a small part of all the properties these speakers own.

I have different clients who said; in the past when I auditioned Monitor Audio I was not that impressed. Or when I would not have visited you I don’t think I would have bought a Monitor Audio set.

When I test and do research I am only looking for properties. This is a level most people can never use and reach. I am aware of how difficult it is. It took my almost 20 years to be able to extract each single product.

In the price range Monitor Audio operates there is no other brand what gives me those properties I need and want that easy. Because most brands are 2D on facts. Each single 2D brand or product will never make any person excited and emotional for a long period.

People who visite me the first time are often impressed how much different any Monitor Audio loudspeaker sounds compared to any trial and error shop.

At the first few seconds you are aware that you are listening to a different level in both sound and emotion. Tru-Fi can also create a superior level of other brands. You just need the right properties.

We are Lumin dealer as well. Again we create a level with Lumin what is in it’s own league. Because we use the properties to the max. We modify the players internal. We use different tools to improve them. We modify poweramps and a lot more.

My goal is always creating a superior level in both sound quality and emotion compared to any other product for the same money. A perfectionist only wants to win and outperform.

I see both sound&vision as a game and I love it. I only want to outperfrom any other audio company in the world. This is how I create superior quality and the highest level in emotion. 

In my world there is no place for second best. That is only for born losers. For a normal person it is not possible to understand how much further I go into details. And how precise I work. It goes so far beyond your imagination.

When I see pictures of highend systems I can see many mistakes already. Because they make mistakes in things I tested why they have a limiting influence.

Thousands of tests means you want to understand as much as possible. And to improve both sound&vision over and over again. We are now talking with manufacturers to bring both sound&vision to a much higher level than where it stands now.

The inferior level of trial and error will only decrease the audio market. There is not even a discussion about this possible. Trail and error is pure blindness and having no idea to do it differently.

I talked this year to over 20 people who also work in audio for a long time. And I asked them different questions of none they could answer. They all agreed that they work by trial and error and never have no idea why the stage and sound is what they hear.

When I explained how I work they understand directly that it is a lot more precise and accurate. The people who auditioned my systems or some of my clienst understand exactly why we have no competition.

We create both sound and vision on properties. This will win in each individual situation of any trail and error system. Because all these systems have no foundation on how they have been created.

Tru-Fi can easily proof what is missing. Because this is how we work. I never met any person who said: I prefer my incomplete audiosystem.

Because each single person on this planet will prefer any system what can reveal more details and emotion. That is why I will use conservatorium students to proof that Tru-Fi is a mirror of how voices and instruments sound and are being projected into space.

We only work by facts!

What “facts” are you referring to? Your posts are devilishly hard to follow....

I find it best not to ask questions to folks who’ve been in the audio hobby for a long time. In fact, as soon as someone says, “I’ve been in this hobby for 30 years and you can believe me when I say...”, I’m out. Best to avoid all the misinformation, disinformation, misconceptions, and mistaken assumptions that accrue. Way too much stove piping.

Bo's posts are hard to follow? He comes around from time to time with his imagined "expertise" and posts long tributes to his seemingly vast (20 years? It was less a few rants ago) experience gleaned from selling audio gear and honing his superior listening skills, and his inherent ability to understand what few can ever comprehend: His posts. Example: "We create both sound and vision on properties. This will win in each individual situation of any trail and error system. Because all these systems have no foundation on how they have been created." First, get spellcheck, second, a clue.

I read somewhere that a group of cancer patients were mysteriously cured and the doctors were baffled until they realized someone with the nickname of bo1972 was secretly injecting them with the Tru-Fi serum.....Incredible load of cow crap....

Bo1947. you are using the word " proof ", rather than " prove ", in many of your sentences. fyi

I actually do not find that objectionable. On an objectionability scale of 10 I’d give it a 2.

The sound you hear is the best proof of everything. This is what you get at the end. People choose the sound what influences their emotion the most. So it is for every one overhere to understand that music is emotion.

So you need to create the sound and stage what is the most convincing and intense. Did you ever think about how the sound of voices and instruments is being formed and created.

This is needed to understand audio at all. You cannot control and guide any system by trial and error. When you only judge at the endresult of everything togheter. It is not possible to understand why the stage and sound of your system is what you hear.

I give you an example: This year I visited a shop and he (the owner) wanted to compare 2 loudspeakercables. So I asked him: when you take this one out, which properties you take out?

He said; I have no idea.

So I asked another question: which properties do you bring in when you connect the second cable?

He said: I have no idea.

The next question I asked: so you never have any idea why the stage and sound of your system is what you hear?

He said: I don’t think so.

So I said: This means you do audio by trial and error and only listen to the endresults?

He said: yess I do.

And I said you are doing pure audiogambling. And have no idea (foundation) what you are really doing?

He said: I think you are right.

This is not about being right. This is all about understanding that you need to do audio differently so you can control and guide your system to the sound and stage you want.

I used the words overhere  many times......you need to learn to look further!

Audio is very personal. And all people react  based on their insight and thoughts.

When I ask them what do you want to change about your sound and stage?

Many people aks for a more analogue and emotional sound. For this you need the right properties of sound to be able to reveal it.

This is something you all overhere will understand. We use those sources and modifications to create a sound what van reveal as many layers as possible.

People take their own source with them and their own music. We always start with our own music so we can explain each single part of sound to them. 

This makes it for them easy to understand the differences compared to their own source.

Most sources they bring in own a 2D stage. When we compare the sources just bewteen 2D and 3D. It is often very easy for people to understand that the music is being playes a lot more tangible and a lot more separate and free from eachother.

Many always use the words that it becomes a lot more emotional and intense when you go from 2D to 3D stage. 

Based on our emotion people become a lot more emotional when a voice or instrument is full free and tangible in space.

When you compare a simple acoustic recording in a 2D stage vs a 3D stage, it is very easy to understand the difference.

When we go back to 2D the most common reactions are; it is less involving. The emotion is gone we experienced during the 3D stage.

When you want to understand better how our emotion works. Read articles about emotion and how music influences our emotion.

Audio is sold by shootout. And each shop has the same chances. So you need to create a superior level in sound and stage compared to competitors. Audio is that simple.

The most convincing, emotional and intense one  will be the one who will be chosen. So you need to create an audio system what can reveal as much details  and emotion of a recording.

I will put this weekend the review in english of  the Hurricane. It will make clear what makes it differently to the old ones and others.

I wrote an article about Audioquest but not in english. I will translate it soon. And I will put it overhere. A person will do the grammatically correct. It is not my 1ste language as most of you know:)

Our website will also be in english in 2018. All the texts needs to be translated professional first. I will let you when it is ready.

@stfoth; what I know for 100% sure is that your Bluesound cannot reveal all the properties of sound.

Everest cables by Audioquest are $21,000 and Audioquest HDMI cables are $13,000. I think that probably qualities Audioquest for the $uper High end. Obviously Audioquest sells mor3 “affordable”cables, too. I don’t know how much the new Hurricane power cord is but I have a sneaking suspicion it’s not cheap. I patiently await Bo’s write-up of the Hurricane power cord and his thinking about Cable and Power Cord Directionality.

The Everest are discontinued cables. Are not there anymore for many many years. Second the most expensive hdmi cable is the Diamond and costs 935 dollar. 

You are talking nonsense. The Hurricane is even in the US below 1500 dollar. The most expensive one the Dragon is  below 5000 dollar.

Audio is all about facts :)

Bingo!

besides, it doesn’t make sense that Audioquest which has been high end for a very long time suddenly went, what, MidFi. If it doesn’t make sense it’s not true.

$50K would be for a 13’ pair of non biwire WEL Signature speaker cables, bi-wiring almost doubles the cost so a standard 8’ pair biwired would run $60K or so

In my experience the WEL Sig speaker cables are a little too expensive for the quality they deliver. I get much better results from the analog interconnect that I have a lot of, at a more ’reasonable’ $7.5K per 1M (I have an 8M balanced run that I got at a very good price)

The new Dragon HC power cord is a relative bargain at $4.4K for 1M, and the base Dragon low current (for sources) is half that. As both of these cables absolutely hands down destroy the previous WEL Signature power cords (which were $4K) I have to say they qualify as a bargain. I believe that the Hurricane that Bo alludes to is the sweet spot in the line and also very fairly priced -- the Dragon’s have silver in them so run more than the Hurricane’s which are all copper

I currently use WEL Sig for all my analog interconnects and a mix of AQ Dragon and SR Galileo for my power cords. AQ Digital cables are OK but can be bettered by Transparent and others -- I use a mix of Transparent Ref XL and Marigo’s top end AES/EBU.

Anyway AQ certainly cover the full range from entry level to high end -- one of the main complaints against them being the complexity of their product hierarchy.