Has Anyone Found Shunyata Cables Sounding Thin?
Hi Zd542 and Guidocorona, The tonality/harmonics are not what I like to hear. I would call the sound thin. There is definitely something lacking. Maybe it's just my system. I have been using DIY Furutech PCs, ICs and digital cables in my system, on and off -- not in series. But I have experimented with series cabling in the past. Since the Furutech wire is OCC cryo-ed copper, just like Shunyata cables, I figured the synergy might be good. So, I tried the Shunyata digital and IC cables in series with my Furutechs. Wow! Stunning. So, I tried my PCs with the Shunyatas. Equally stunning. How does this work? Since I run AES/XLR it's easy. Just piggy-back the cables. With PCs I use a burn-in adapter. Which cable goes downstream? Ah, there's the rub. It depends on which sounds better. This part is all trial and error. |
Sabai, I recall you working with the "series" concept a while ago, and I sincerely applaud your creativity and persistence. However, I feel you are disadvantaging yourself with this method. For every change achieved by adding an unnecessary interconnect to the chain, and an unnecessary connection, you are also losing information - you are gaining tonal variety at the expense of precision. My perspective is that whatever goal could be achieved with the series method could be achieved better by selecting proper cables not in series, but if desired by mixing them. If you feel a particular cable sounds thin, then you place yourself at a disadvantage in using it at all. You are merely degrading the end result in order to adjust the thinness. That is not something I would recommend for the reasons I have stated. I'm not under the impression that I will change your mind in this matter, but I'm sharing my perspective based on use of cables. |
Douglas_schroeder, If you could hear my system you would change your mind. There is no loss at all of precision or information -- contrary to accepted audio "wisdom". The fact is that my system is at no "disadvantage" whatsoever. On the contrary, it has gained an advantage -- better SQ. You are speaking from the point of view of audio theory -- not from the point of view of someone who is actually listening to my system. You have never heard my system. The ears tell the story -- not the theory. It is not a matter of changing my mind. This has nothing to do with the mind. It is all about the ears. My ears have been tested to hear 16,000 Hertz. Neither my system nor my ears are "disadvantaged". |
Sorry, Sabai, you are wrong in believing that I have not tried this. When you first posted your "series" idea a while back I tried it; I believe I used three brands of balanced cables in the experiment in different configurations. I found it to have marginal benefit, and I could get better results by continuing to mix a shorter run (no series) of cables than by adding unnecessary ones. In fact, the degradation of the sound was pronounced enough universally that I abandoned the method entirely. Therefore, I do speak from experience, and my experience says it is counter-productive to add unnecessary cables. While you can adjust the tonality, you will be hurting the precision/clarity. That is my position, and I'm not interested in arguing, if cordially, about it. You are convinced you have a "holy grail" type solution, and after trying it I disagree. :) BTW, I don't have to hear your system to reach my conclusion, just as you have not heard my system and cannot declare my findings invalid. So, people will simply have to 1. draw conclusions based on our disparate findings, and or, 2. try it. If I were to hear it I would likely very much enjoy the sound of your system, especially since you have worked so hard to tune it. However, I am also confident that given the opportunity I would be able to improve the sound, that is, make it more to my liking, by being able to remove some of the "serial" cabling and mix in as I wished a more streamlined set of cables. Or, more likely, I would replace the mix of cables with an entire set of cables I feel are exceptional. I simply do not agree with you when you say the system is at, "no disadvantage whatsoever." From my experience (not simply theory) that is not possible when adding cables which are unnecessary to the system. You may prefer the result, but I have experience which leads me to conclude there is degradation happening in your system as a consequence. Based on my experiments a person may be able to adjust a sound to address a problem using serial cables, but it introduces a different set of problems unnecessarily when attempting to attain a more SOTA-like sound. |
Douglas_schroeder, Sorry, your logic is completely off track. You have not "tried this" in my system using the specific Furutech and Shunyata configuration that I use. You speak from "experience" but your experience is limited to the cables that you used in your system. "Trying this" -- series cabling -- in your system, and finding "it" does not work, is meaningless because I am not talking about your system. I am taking about what works in my system. You have missed the point completely. The point is what works in my system, not what does not work in your system. You have no idea about what works in my system. So, dismissing what I have done by trying series cabling in your system is irrelevant because it does not duplicate my system and my experiment. The important thing is not that "this" did not work in your system. Because your "this" is not the same "this" that works in my system. The important thing is that "this" works very well in my system. "This" may be "counter-productive" in your system. But "this" is not "counter-productive" in mine. You are talking apples and oranges. For you to take your experience and generalize it is as false as if I were to generalize my experience. I have neither used the words "holy grail" nor have I implied anywhere that I am suggesting a "holy grail" for others. If you read my OP carefully I have simply asked if others have experienced thin sound with Shunyata cables. And I have let people know what works in my system to overcome the problem. You have already come to a conclusion as to what is "not possible" -- and therefore what is possible. For you, improving SQ is not possible with series cabling. Well, you can talk about your own system here with authority. I would not presume to do so. But to talk about others' systems with equal authority is a whole other matter. You do not have the authority to do so, IMO. Your experience is limited to your system and to your experiment. The problem is that you have generalized your conclusion based on your experience. Well, the conclusion you have reached may be valid for your system. But once you start to assume that what is true for your system is therefore true for all systems, you tread on ground you have no experience with. For you, the theory calls the shots. Your theory tells you what is possible and what is not possible. For me, the ears call the shots. They tell me what is possible and what is not possible. Since you have not heard my system you have no actual basis for making judgments about what is possible and what is not possible with my system. You only have iron-clad, indisputable theories that may, in fact, not be so iron-clad or so indisputable. But you would have to hear my system to find that out. Obviously. But you already know this is not necessary -- and that you would be able to improve the SQ of my system without ever having heard it. I find this quite amazing. Series cabling is an art. It is like choosing the right component, but even more complicated because it is necessary to test dozens of cables in various configurations. How you can be convinced that you could improve the cabling and SQ in my system without knowing about this from first-hand experience is as presumptuous as my saying that I know how I could improve the cabling and SQ in your system without first-hand experience. Based only on theories and accepted "wisdom". You may feel you have "exceptional" cables but to presume they would do anything for the SQ in my system is to be completely off track. It is beyond me how anyone can make cable assumptions and pre-decisions about another person's system with no experience at all with the other person's system. I find it interesting that you already know that you would be able to make the sound of my system more to "your liking" -- without ever having heard my system in the first place to see if it is to your liking before the making the changes you have already decided it needs! You know beforehand that there "must" be "degradation" and "disadvantage" happening because your theory tells you so -- not your ears, but your theory. |
I have had a similar recent experience with the latest and greatest Shunyata power cord. Thin. For the record, I would not run cables in series, ever. Cables are not tone controls. They are designed to present unaltered signal to the downstream component. Its a mistake, and eventually your ears will tell you that. |
According to Psag, it looks like I am not the only one with the same perception -- thin-sounding Shunyata cables. Psag, Running cables in series is no more about tone controls than running single cabling is, IMO. You expect tone with a single cable, do you not? If the tone is thin, if the harmonics are not there with a single cable, then what do you do? You join the cable bandwagon and buy and sell and buy and sell in the hopes of reaching your sonic goals. I do not see the problem in trying to find a way to restore harmonics by using cables in series. The problem is a theoretical one. The problem is not an actual one if the ears say yeah. If the ears say yeah then what's the problem? You say "... your ears will eventually tell you that [this is not so]." Really. So, what you are saying is that I cannot trust my ears -- and that you know the answer about my system without ever having heard it! You say " I would not run cables in series, ever. Its [sic] a mistake." Well, this is an interesting statement. How do you know it's a mistake if you have never tried it? Does dogma take the place of the ears in audio? It's like people who nay-say various tweaks and accessories but have never tried them. They know in advance the answer. Really? In which case the mind closes the ears before they have a chance to listen. This is not the way I built my system. Onhwy61, I don't think that listing my components will be any help at all. How can it be? You cannot taste the food by reading the menu. If I tell you that I have Raidho C1.1 speakers, a Shunyata Triton power conditioner, etc. what will you possibly learn from that about what my system sounds like with cables in series? |
People in audio often say 'trust your ears', as if that's the end of any and all arguments. I don't believe that to be the case. My priority has been to use components in such a way as to convey the signal as it was recorded. Once a cable affects the signal in a particular way, the use of a second cable in series will only take it further from the truth. A cable in series can't add anything to the signal, other than distortion. |
Psag, I forgot to comment on your other statements. You stated that "People in audio often say 'trust your ears', as if that's the end of any and all arguments. I don't believe that to be the case." The word audio comes from the Latin. It literally means "I hear." It seems to be putting things backwards to state that your cannot trust your ears when it comes to matters that ultimately concern nothing more than our hearing -- unless, of course, one's hearing is impaired. And you stated that "My priority has been to use components in such a way as to convey the signal as it was recorded." In such a way? What way is that, exactly? Are you presuming that your way of using components, whatever that may be, is the only valid way of using components to "convey the signal as it was recorded"? The signal is transduced into sound. How do you know what combination of elements will faithfully transduce the sound in all possible audio systems? Cables are just another element in the chain of electronic components that contribute to making the signal audible. Would you say an audiophile should not use a pre-amp -- and all the cables attached to it -- because it makes the signal path longer and therefore must introduce distortion into the signal and must therefore distort the sound? And how about the addition of a power conditioner with filters? All power conditioners do not produce identical sound. One may fairly assume that distortion is one of the elements being produced by some of the power conditioners on the market. Are we to eschew the notion of using a power conditioner -- and all of the cables attached to it -- because some power conditions produce unacceptable distortion? Is the length of the signal path the ultimate deciding factor or is the sound the deciding factor -- or none of the above? You started your discussion on this topic with a conclusion based on some sort of theory (that is not completely clear to me) that displaces the importance of the ears in an area where hearing is actually the most important thing. Your comments here reminded me of a post I read recently on a PS Audio forum: "I do love the "I don't care what it sounds like, if it doesn't measure great it's crap. If it measures great then I have to buy it even if it sounds like crap because if it measures great it must be great." "Audiophiles"." In your case it does not seem to be a matter of not measuring great. It seems to be a matter of not measuring up to some sort of theory -- some sort of mental measurement. In both cases the mind short-circuits the ears. I do not allow any mental intervention between the music and my ears. I let my ears make the audio decisions. After all, audio comes from the Latin. It literally means "I hear". |
Psag, You have stated "People in audio often say 'trust your ears', as if that's the end of any and all arguments. I don't believe that to be the case." Audio comes from the Latin. It literally means "I hear". Rene Descartes said "cogito ergo sum" -- "I think therefore I am". In audio this would be the equivalent of "I think therefore I hear". I do not feel that anything should or can replace a good set of ears. |
Psag, With all due respect your comment doesn't make sense(unless I misunderstand you).The entire point of having an audio system is to listen to music. We listen by using our ears(and brain processing). If we don't or won't rely on our ears what is the alternative? When you play music in your home how are you judging it's sound quality or determine if you enjoy it without listening? How are ears removed from the act of "listening" to music ? I just don't see your rationale. Thanks, Charles, |
Sabai, I have abandoned the idea many years ago of what I call chaseing the cables by the tail syndrome, I have found running a full loom of a brand results to better sound for me, you may have different impressions, we all do in this hobby, if you believe that what you do, running cables in series is rare, well then, I got you beat, It has took me many years to come to my way of building, I use my cables as the reference, if a componet sounds forward on my cables, that componet is gone, if a componet does any thing I do not like with sound, that componet is gone, there are many ways to skin a cat here, my idea of building is against the masses entirely!, I have excellent results doing what I do here, cheers. |
Audiolabyrinth, You're right. One size does not fit all. What works for one person may not work for another. We have to discover through trial and error what works and what does not work in our systems. Suggestions from others may produce little gold nuggets -- or little brown turds. Ultimately, your have to rely on your own experience and your own ears. |
I agree that trust your ears can be misleading. We don't actually listen to music. Our ears (and to a far lesser extent, our bodies) pick up changes in air pressure which our brain then interprets as sound. The brain then processes certain sounds as music. Further processing in the brain categorizes the music into familiar archtypes and patterns. The key is that past experiences allows the brain to create internal models of "music" and the process of listening to music is comparing incoming sounds to these existing mental images of music. Effectively your brain is creating the music based upon external stimuli. As with nearly any human ability there's a variability within a population group and some people are better able to form mental models of music. Some people can instantly say whether it's Ben Webster or Coleman Hawkins, and others cannot. Some people can "hear" it's English horn and not an oboe. What does this have to do with being an audiophile? Your system is a reflection of your mental model of what music should sound like. If you have a "good" mental model and further have the ability to assemble and setup an electronic system in your home that is close to your mental model, then other people of similar ability will say your system sounds good. Trust your ears. Well, some people can trust their ears, but others should be working harder at developing better mental models of what they are hearing. On an internet forum such as this, it's near impossible to tell in which group a poster resides. This is particularly so when they don't list their system components. |
The talk about cables being tone controls, series or not, begs the question, why do cables have to be tone controls? If a cable has a tone, then it is adding distortion to the signal. A perfect cable would have no tone. Why not try to move toward that to get the maximum detail and fidelity from the source? Isn't that why the industry moved away from tone controls in the first place, in order to get rid of distortion? |
Hi Onhwy61, The ears are an integral part of this process, not our nose, eyes or fingertips. As I did earlier reference the obvious brain processing of information as you point out. I guess what I don't understand is why some people try to deny or diminished the stark reality of things sometimes. To appreciate music requires listening and in order to listen we need our ears.If you or I were unfortunately deaf would we be able to hear and enjoy the music we love? What would substitute for our non functioning hearing? Thanks, Charles, |
Charles1dad, You stated "To appreciate music requires listening and in order to listen we need our ears." It's as simple as that. Of course, the brain is involved. The brain is involved in everything. But worrying about mental models makes for an intellectual exercise -- not a listening session. Music begins and ends with the ears. Yes, I noticed that the ears are attached to the brain. And therefore there is presumably some processing going on up there -- I hope. But to make this into an intellectual thing about mental models distances this from the music and the listening experience. And the further away from the ears the discussion drifts the further away it moves from that experience. We can get into all sorts of intellectual discussions about psycho-acoustics and where the music actually is -- in the room -- in the brain -- in the ears -- and how we perceive music. And how we may not be able to trust our ears, or to fully trust them, or how we cannot trust them in this or in that way. And we must therefore doubt what we are hearing. But this solves nothing. Because it all does come back to what we hear -- with no second guessing or intellectual intervention. Otherwise, listening becomes either an intellectual exercise or a game that begins to sound like the old Abbott and Costello "Who's on first, what's on second" routine. Some people may prefer an intellectually-informed music experience. I prefer a music experience on the feeling and emotional level. Regarding listing my system, no one will be able to do anything except speculate about my system if I go to the trouble of listing everything, which I will not do. I will say that I have Raidho C1.1 speakers, an Audio Horizons TP 2.3 preamp fully loaded, a PS Audio PerfectWave transport with PS Audio DS DAC on the way, an isolation transformer, a Monarchy power regenerator, a Shunyata Triton power conditioner, and an Atma-Sphere S-30 power amp. I will not list all my cabling except to say that I use mostly Shunyata cables in series with my own DIY cables that feature some of the best Furutech wire and connectors. I have the prototypes for 2 new products in my system. This information is proprietary. There are also other things I do that I do not care to divulge. |
Hi Onhwh61, Come on now, if given a choice which would you choose? You seem to be going out of the way to downplay the necessity of ours ears. Anyway I was just trying to make what I believe is an obvious point. I don't mean to turn this into some drawn out philosophical argument. We'll just respectfully disagree regarding the "ears" issue. Thanks, Charles, |
"10-11-14: Onhwy61 Deaf people can enjoy music. Deaf musicians can even create new music. The human brain is where music is created and comprehended, not the ear. Read a musical score and tell me it's not true." It's not true. I just tried to do it. Honestly, though, I don't know how to read music, so that may have been a factor. It's not in me to quit either, so I expanded on the idea and tried something I already knew how to do. I ate a steak in my head. So much for that. I'm still hungry. You may want to rethink your approach before someone goes deaf, or starves to death. |
10-11-14: Charles1dadDon't waste your breath, nothing is obvious to Onhwh61. |
I'm not downplaying the benefits of having working ears. I am simply highlighting the primacy of the brain in experiencing music. A person can experience music whether the stimulus is aural, visual or conductive vibrations. The stimulus doesn't even have to be external; it could just be a mental image of some music. Some people can dance to the music in their head and some cannot. Some suggested reading: http://www.lifeprint.com/asl101/topics/music02.htm https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080120003517AAsLIcg http://gapersblock.com/transmission/2010/07/22/beyond_vibrations_the_deaf_musical_experience/ Zd542, you don't know whether it's true or not because you don't have the knowledge base to perform the act of reading a musical score. Others may simply know more than you on this subject. Though I do like your point about the steak. |
"Zd542, you don't know whether it's true or not because you don't have the knowledge base to perform the act of reading a musical score. Others may simply know more than you on this subject. Though I do like your point about the steak." Have you no sense of humor? Yes, your point is valid. I think what some of us are suggesting, is that how we perceive music is the result of multiple factors. I say use your head. This allows you to use your ears because they're attached to your head, but also allows for the use of your brain, as well. |
Years ago I worked with a really nice deaf woman named Janice, we became good friends. I invited Janice to a BBQ/party with other friends and family at our home one evening and after a while I observed Janice walking around with drink in one hand and a beer carton in the other , intrigued I enquired of the box . In sign she responded she could feel the music through the vibrations in the box. Is what Janice perceived subjective, the answer is surely yes although would Janice have got stereo with box in each hand. I personally take notice of live music both live naked acoustic and with amplification, this is my reference, I have to rely on my memory of those events to select my components and voice my system. My goosebump moments I think are when my head and heart tell me I'm getting close. You might find this interesting if you havn't seen it, thanks. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ |
Omsed Every element in a system imparts tone -- components, cables, accessories. I have no idea why there is special emphasis placed on cables in this regard. Perhaps because they are easier to add and subtract in a system which leaves them more vulnerable to the accusation of being agents for tone control. True, some people may focus on tone when looking for cables for their system. But for me, cables are just another element in the system. They contribute to tone, but also to detail, sound stage and imaging and all the other sonic parameters. |
It totally defies logic (to us streight line guys) that adding cables in series would add anything but distortion and signal loss. Mathematically and physically, its an impossibility that the cables in series would not compromise the transfer of signal through that nonsensical configuration. This is one I need not listen to. My brain can easilly figure out what it does. If you are so adamant that it sounds "better", its only because you have problems somewhere else, where this capacitance nightmare is actually either high pass filtering or low pass filtering something. I know I have not heard your system but if you tell me you put water in your engine instead of gas, I would not need to hear your car to know what you have. |
Cerrot, "I know I have not heard your system but if you tell me you put water in your engine instead of gas, I would not need to hear your car to know what you have." If you Google water-powered engines you will discover some amazing things. Congratulations. Glad to hear you have everything figured out. By the way, here's a hypothetical situation. Your best audiophile friend invites you over. He's been doing some odd experiments, much to your surprise. He tells you he's running a cable or 2 in series and would like you to have a listen. Your response: 1. You're not interested in hearing this crap. You already know it's a crock of BS. 2. OK, why not, power up and let's give it a go. Would you choose #1 or #2? |
Sabai, thank you for giving some info about your audio equipment. I find it interesting that you use an Atma-sphere amp in that its designer has frequently stated that properly designed balanced I/O should eliminate the differences in how cables sound in a system. Obviously, that's not the case for you. |
A designer who'd stay away from something "regardless of how they may sound" is someone's whose products I'd likely stay away from. Sound quality becoming secondary to some other criteria when building audio components is misguided. Measurements certainly have a role but the major and final determinant is "what does it sound like reproducing music". If your designer determines the sound is good but the measurements aren't, then they'll reject what sounds good anyway?? If they feel the sound is good why worry about measurements? Why do some audiophiles feel that it's somehow more intellectual to be contrary to what's so obvious. Psag when choosing equipment for your system how do you judge its worthiness for your home listening pleasure? Does listening matter in your decision making? Just curious. Thanks, Charles, |
Regarding listing my system, no one will be able to do anything except speculate about my system if I go to the trouble of listing everything, which I will not do. I will say that I have Raidho C1.1 speakers, an Audio Horizons TP 2.3 preamp fully loaded, a PS Audio PerfectWave transport with PS Audio DS DAC on the way, an isolation transformer, a Monarchy power regenerator, a Shunyata Triton power conditioner, and an Atma-Sphere S-30 power amp.You have very good components but IMO, the S-30 is too small to drive your speakers properly. Also, are you using Chinese or Russian 6AS7G? From my experience, Chinese version is leaner. With your speakers and want to stay with Atma-Sphere, I wouldn't use anything smaller than MA-1. |
Actually, no one has mentioned the most damning problem with Sabai's initial complaint about Shunyata cables. (Unless someone else commented and I didn't see it.) There is no way to know the native sound of the Shunyata cable when used in series with another brand of cable. They are simply being misused. I would guess Shunyata would not agree that their cables are thin sounding, and not even Sabai could argue this when, in fact, he's using them serial with other cables. It's one thing to say, "X cable sounds thin," but it is an entirely wrong statement to say, "X cable sounds thin," when it has been used in serial, which is in no way representative of normal usage. I suspect Sabai may not have even tried the Shunyata cable alone; from the lead post it appears he has inserted it into his serial cable system and weighed in on its sound. He simply is not using the cables correctly, according to the intent of the manufacturers, when he uses them serial. Consequently, he is most assuredly off base on describing the sound of any cables he is using in that fashion. It's tough enough to zero in on the sound of a cable when used in a mix of brands; it is impossible to know the native sound when used in an unnecessary serial configuration. Mixing cable brands as well as serial use leads to one thing: a sloppier sounding rig in which it becomes impossible to isolate the actual contribution of any cable used in series. It may sound good, but not nearly as good as if proper methods were employed. I have built hundreds of rigs and tried such things, and I don't need to hear anyone else's rig to state that as a principle of system building. I think Sabai feels his philosophy of audio is superior to persons like me, and thus I don't think he will be open to such criticism. He proposes what he feels are superior methods, but when those methods come under scrutiny, he retreats to the, "... you can't judge because you haven't heard my system," defense. There is no way to find solid ground with such methods and logic. :) |
Hi Sabai, I had the same thought as Knghifi when reading your system description. The Atmasphere S 30 and Raidho struck me as a questionable pairing, although individually judged both are well regarded. It would seem that the S30 OTL amp could benefit from a more compatible speaker load. I haven't heard it and of course you hear it often. How did you happen to decide on this unique match? Obviously you're pleased with the sonic results. Charles, |
"Every element in a system imparts tone -- components, cables, accessories. I have no idea why there is special emphasis placed on cables in this regard." I'm pretty sure I know. When most people start out in audio, they are very surprised when people tell them that cables make a difference in sound quality. It sort of adds a bit of mystery to the experience. And not everyone hears differences in cables right away. It usually takes some time to gain the knowledge and listening experience needed to consistently pick out differences in cables. When it finally does happen, it can be viewed as an accomplishment. Something to be proud of. At that point, I think many feel, whether they realize it or not, they're more likely to engage in conversations that involve cables. If you look at the number of responses to threads, topics involving cables always have the most responses. Or I could be wrong, its just my theory. |
"I suspect Sabai may not have even tried the Shunyata cable alone; from the lead post it appears he has inserted it into his serial cable system and weighed in on its sound. He simply is not using the cables correctly, according to the intent of the manufacturers, when he uses them serial. Consequently, he is most assuredly off base on describing the sound of any cables he is using in that fashion." I won't speak for him, but his first post was pretty clear about that. "They are great cables but they need help in my system. I run cables in series to solve the problem and the results are stunning" That sounds to me like he tried the cables both ways. |
