Harbeth 30.1 ? The Ultimate Speaker under $5K ?

A pair of Klipsch Lascala ( I own ), ( or Belle, if you can find a pair ), with a few modifications and updates, will certainly take care of every desire you want, and, you already have a subwoofer ( although I prefer a pair ). The Heresy and Cornwall are good choices, but not in the league of the Lascala ( I also own a pair of Heresy 11 fully modified in another room, and have owned Cornwalls ). Maybe a used pair of the Lascala 11 might come up for sale. Try and listen to a pair somewhere ( I am in central Fl. ) Lot of info on the Klipsch Forums. Enjoy ! Mr. D.

I’d love to audition some Klipsch ...looked at all their Northern CA. distributors and no one carries the high end stuff...must be someone that has them....any impressions of Cornwalls ? One guy recommended Herseys w/ subs but they seem small for my room...

hope you had a chance to hear the C7s also.  more natural than the SHL5+ and bigger sound than the 30s.   A great speaker.  
FYI adding a good subwoofer (i recommend JL audio) makes the sound bigger as well.  

ok so demo’d the Harbeth’s and here are my thoughts 

Room was medium sized and treated well.

30.1 / C7s : Way too small for my space. Out of the running immediately .

SHL5+ - very nice , true , imaging was deep and my first reaction was this is a clean , non hyped even field of sound. I played about 15 tracks , varied styles ranging from hard rock /soft rock/ jazz .
Some sounded better than others ...initial impressions seem to lean that these Harbeth’s compliment softer music ...the heavier stuff sounded good but not quite as impactful as the spacious softer tracks....
The Highs : Were there and even . People wanting to hear that super crisp , shimmery high end will need EQ.
Mids - very even and accurate.
The Bottom was surprisingly good for a flat EQ/ no subs...for me in my space , not enough ...I’d need to supplement a sub.
The depth was quite extraordinary ...the spectrum was broad and sounded like nothing had artifacts. The cabinets are beautiful .
In conclusion , Me personally at this stage , I don’t think $7K is worth what I heard...however, if I happen to run across a new/used pair for quite a bit less... I might bite...good work Alan/ Harbeth , great speakers.

The M40.1s would be better suited to your room, but even those won't give you the bass dynamics you likely crave. Find a way to hear some Cornwalls -- maybe join a local audio club. It may even be worth a short flight to SoCal (where you could spend a whole weekend auditioning speakers). Upscale Audio stocks them.

http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/the-klipsch-cornwall-iii-speaker-review-by-steve-huff/

HELOMECH ...here's the deal with that , its a trap to a degree , once you get the 30.1's , Harbeth comes out with the BETTER bigger, ones 40.1 , then 40.2's ....I want to buy something and be done with it , not worry that the upgraded model is so much better....but you're right 40.1 better for my room for sure...40.2! $15K! done :) BTW , most of the people I've talked to on Audiomart selling their 30.1's are upgrading to 40.1 or 40.2 ! 

I called Klipsch and they referred me to a place in Sacramento that may have their Heritage lines on floor....if not I'll definitely get to LA eventually to scope out...thanks! 

Lascala IIs, that is the ticket. Or Volti Rivals. Enjoy ! MrD.

HELOMECH ...here’s the deal with that , its a trap to a degree , once you get the 30.1’s , Harbeth comes out with the BETTER bigger, ones 40.1 , then 40.2’s ....I want to buy something and be done with it , not worry that the upgraded model is so much better....but you’re right 40.1 better for my room for sure...40.2! $15K! done :) BTW , most of the people I’ve talked to on Audiomart selling their 30.1’s are upgrading to 40.1 or 40.2 !

I called Klipsch and they referred me to a place in Sacramento that may have their Heritage lines on floor....if not I’ll definitely get to LA eventually to scope out...thanks!

They make small changes periodically, like every 8 years or so, if that. I can’t imagine the difference would be worth replacing a pair of .1s. I also doubt they’ll be coming out with a larger model anytime in the near future.

If you’re patient, you could probably find a near-mint pair of Spendor SP100s for under $4K - approximately same size as 40.1s and better sounding IMO - better than some $20K speakers. However, they too are not really designed for hard rock. The Spendor D7s might just fit your needs - British midrange with some real bass power.

When I was in Sac last year, the only Hi-Fi dealers were Magnolia - inside Best Buy, and Paradyme Sight and Sound. Neither had Klipsch Heritage, but hopefully that’s changed. Good luck.

Hi, Harbeth has a passive studio version of the 40.2 that is quite less expensive. Not the great looks of course.

And why not try to hear the JBL LSR 6332 passive studio monitors. They with a sub would also play you out of your room :-) Can be had used within your budget. 

If you're locked into Harbeth Imo the bigger SHL5's might do better in your room.
Personally if my budget was $5k I'd get a new pair of Elac Adante AF-61 speakers.

@tom_hankins If you read above, the OP did audition the SHL5s and gave his impressions. He would consider them, used, and would use a sub with them. Enjoy ! MrD.

The 40.1's and .2's are a big physical presence in a room.  You can look at the dimensions and even mark them out on the floor in painter's tape, but you need to see them to appreciate how imposing they are.  If your room can accommodate them, they are great (in my opinion).  They need a couple of feet each way away from side ways, 3' even better.  I am led to believe the .1's can be boomy in smaller rooms, the .2's tamed that.  That being said, there are some good deals to be had on .1's.  The Spendor SP100 Mk1's are in some respects more like that classic sound than the Mk2's, if you can find a pair without too many miles on them.

I just got recommended these curious open ended speakers...anyone? Guy said they blow all Klipsch out of the water ...

http://www.spatialaudio.us/m3-triode-master/

I never rely on anyone when they say " blows them out of the water ". It is all opinion, and I disagree.  Crank any drum recording, such as the Sheffield drum record to peaks of 110 db, and they will fall apart. It depends on what you want. But, like the larger Harbeths, worth a listen. Listen to as much as possible, because each of us are different in what we want. Enjoy ! MrD.

" Open baffle "

I haven't heard these but take a look.
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis93301-verastarr-grandmaster-loudspeaker-like-having-a-live-band...

Holy Stormtroopers! Verastarr ...I never know what to think when I see these companies Ive never heard of , but every killer company started somewhere I suppose...

verastarr is known  for cables (expensive)

right , heard of those...no way I'd spend $5K without hearing ;) 

vacation trip to atlanta and if you buy them get him to deduct the cost of your trip from the speakers.

man those look cool , don't think Im up for an east coast trip soon though ;) 

its clear Helomech has some sort of negative bias towards harbeth. saying that Spendor, stirling, graham are all better then Harbeth seem very bold statement. to be able to claim this, one would have to have all the same type of model from every brand in the same room. he have not done this. he just like to shit on harbeth.

what I did do is compare P3esr and shl5plus with graham ls59 in my room for a few months and preferred to keep shl5plus

I also compared different spendor model vs p3esr and in every case the p3esr was better in tonality and overall performance apart from bass

For op, the shl5plus goes surprisingly deep when well placed in room, down to 30hz flat with room gain.

@murphythecat

It’s clear you have an obvious bias for Harbeth being that you own the SHL5s. I’m sorry you get so easily offended, but I hear what I hear and in my opinion, Harbeths are the least natural sounding of the BBC derivatives. My first experience with the brand was buying a pair of C7s - against my dealer’s recommendation as he too prefers the other brands despite selling a lot of Harbeths. He said they’re one of his best sellers because people don’t even bother to audition the competition - they just drink the Harbeth Kool Aid and insist on buying them, just as I did in the beginning.
Even after I went with a different brand I continued to give other Harbeths a chance, but they just don’t hold a candle when it comes to tone, microdynamics and inner detail. People often refer to them as BBC speakers with a "modern" sound. I’d agree with that because I find them just a bit fatiguing as I do many modern speakers. I’ll admit they throw a wider soundstage than the others, and I like their appearance the best - sort of ironic considering Spendor manufactures their cabinets.

BTW, there's no way in #€(( the SHL5s go clear down to 30Hz, and you certainly woudln't know buy listening to them in your tiny space. 

Have nothing against Harbeth speakers, I listen at a dealer for a few hours to a pair of 30.1 that I had lusted after for years, left the shop very disappointed and confused. A year later I bought Graham Audio ls5/9 unheard as I wanted to own a bbc speaker once in my lifetime, having read a lot of reviews and user experience on the differences of the two speakers I took the chance.
I find the difference to be quite big, the 30.1 was too much in my face, very detailed and the tweeter was notably in the picture, the Graham’s have a lot of detail, but somehow for me seam more coherent in there sound, also I like the bass of the Graham’s more.
Somehow seeing how many Harbeth owners like to use tube amps with their speakers make sense to me.

@helomech
How would you describe "don't hold a candle"? Are Harbeth speakers muddy in the upper bass/midrange? My references are ATC and Tannoy large models which I would describe as quite the opposite of muddy. Interested to complete with a BBC derivative just to be able to compare the sound. 

helomech, im not in the least offended.

my experience with harbeth is different then yours. i dont consider myself biased because i bought the graham ls59, and the harbeth shl5plus. ive lived with both for over 6 months. i found the harbeth more natural, engaging and musical then graham. the graham also have a measurable bbc dip of about -4db between 1.7khz up to 3.8 khz. maybe what you call natural is actually a bit colored (bbc dip)?

the graham ls59 also have a weird 2-3db peak around 6khz. all my measurements were confirmed by graham. i thought the graham were great and very similar then harbeth.

im not married to harbeth but to call them the least natural is the exact opposite of my experience. i wont even talk about spendor as ive not liked one spendor speaker ive audition. even d7 was imo coloured and unnatural

what im tired of seeing from you is in every thread mentionning harbeth you come in and claim the superiority of every other bbc conpanies. your only real experience is with the c7es3. i think the c7es3 is the worst harbeth model there is. id even take p3esr plus sub over c7es3.
so you base your entire narrative about harbeth having owned only one model. seems a bit weird and dishonest.

i also find the 30.1 much less good then shl5plus. the 30.1 coloration in the bass is subtle but a bit obvious.

look at stereophile measurements of the shl5plus. its flat down to 40hz and -6db at 30hz. with room gain it easily hits 30hz when well placed.

@gosta

I wouldn’t call the Harbeth bass "muddy," but it’s definitely not as punchy or dynamic as ATC. - that goes for all the BBC derivatives. What bothered me about the C7s, especially, was their cabinet was very easy to localize in the sound "picture." They didn’t perform the disappearing act very well. The bass was sort of like what I find in stock automotive speakers - overblown in the upper bass. It’s hard to describe, other than to say it sounded like the cone was working a little too hard and the cabinet needed a larger port. That wasn’t the case as much with the SHL5 but it was with the M30s.

The Harbeth midrange is pretty good but they just don’t resolve as much of the music as the competition. They have a brighter treble and upper midrange, which I suspect may be mistaken for greater detail by many listeners. I think the inherent benefits of a plastic cone are lost on Harbeths, because to my ears, they sound like what I associate with ceramic-coated aluminum drivers. It’s as though their goal of creating a very stiff plastic cone resulted in negating the inherent dampening properties of the plastic - so they sound almost like a metal cone. That’s just how I hear them and it goes for the whole range, from the P3s to the M40s.

I’m reluctant to provide these opinions because as you’ve probably noticed, their fanbase is an extremely sensitive and defensive bunch. As I’ve said before, this isn’t to say they’re bad speakers in the grand scheme of things, but I strongly feel they are over-hyped. I can only guess their popularity has to do with their much larger distribution network (in the U.S. anyway), their greater presence at hi-fi shows, and Alan Shaw’s subtle but effective prowess in content marketing. I also have to wonder if some of the audio rags are on their take. Tone Audio wrote a comparison piece where they claimed the C7s were a much better speaker than the Stirling Broadcast SB-88s. I couldn’t have disagreed more with that review. IME and opinion, the reality is quite the opposite. The SB-88s are the better speakers unless one judges them solely on expanse of the soundstage.

Being that you’re accustomed to ATC and Tannoy, I don’t know that you should bother with a BBC type speaker unless you want something a little warmer, in which case I’d recommend either the Grahams or Spendor Classics.

@murphythecat

I could really care less what you’re "tired of" me doing. I couldn’t give to licks about your opinions and they are just that - opinions - they’re no more valid than my own. You’re not going to stop me from posting my own. Yes, the C7s are the only Harbeths I’ve actually owned, but I’ve heard the others in dedicated listening rooms, driven by high-end gear. I’ve heard them enough to have formed my conclusion - that they don’t sound as natural or as resolving as the others. It’s just my opinion and it’s no more valid than yours. Folks here can take it for just that. I’ve become a bit of a Spendor fanboy, but in case you didn’t,
notice, I recommended the OP consider Klipsch or Tannoy for his needs. I won’t claim that Spendor are the end-all be-all of speaker design or that they’ll sound most natural to every listener.

I can tell you that I really wanted to prefer Harbeths, because I love the aesthetics of their cabinets - especially the Eucalyptus and Zebrawood veneers. Unfortunately, they just don’t do it for me sonically. I’m glad you’re happy with the SHL5s - really, because all that matters in the end is that we’re happy with our individual systems. All I suggested to the OP was that he give the competition a chance, and not assume the M30s are the best speaker under $5K. I’m sure you would agree that it’s foolish to make such an assumption about any speaker without some auditions.

@ Helomech

Thanks for your input. Yes, my next speaker set need to provide me with a little more warmth when playing not so perfect recordings (like most rock and sometimes pop like Adele). I thought the Tannoys DC10A would bring me that, but they are merciless...(like the ATC 150). I'm still running them in (letting my head get used to them) to later compare them direct to the ATC. On good recordings they are fantastic though with the best soundstage I experienced so far (yes, including ATC). Extremely precise. I run them with their big DC subwoofer.

Maybe I already got the "warmer" loudspeaker in a pair of Gamut M7 which I pair with two SVS sb-16 subs (Lyngdorf 2200). They are both warmer in the mids and softer in the highs (Scanspeak revelator drivers) and can play very loud without disturbing distortion. However, for good recordings the ATC and the Tannoys for me are superior. So, maybe it's of no use for me to think about a traditional english speaker to complete my setup. Maybe I should look for something else. Vintage Tannoys?

Recommend a listen to Bonnie Raitt "In session" - early live acoustic.

i dont know
i feel like theres a limit to opinions and sometime we need to compare two speakers in the same room and the preference will be much less subjective then we think.

everyone who both heard, in my room, the graham ls59 and harbeth shl5plus prefered the harbeth. all i care to say. 

gosta
i had jbl lsr6332. couldnt warmed to it

vintage tannoys? had tannoy berkeley, gold, ect and never would desbribe them as warm. 
im surprised you dont love atc scm150a.
maybe devore 093 could give you the warmness you want. id also been curious about audio note ane and pap open baffle speakers. imo harbeth shl5plus are great and not unforgiving or analytical.

keep us posted on your speaker tryout

Just to make clear. ATC 150 are my reference. Will have them forever. But the fact is that a lot of the music I listen to are not well enough recorded to play really loud on the ATC. Hurts my very sensitive right ear! Sometimes also you need another speaker to compensate for lack of bass in a recording or just to make it listenable. I use a vintage Yamaha M-85 amplifier with the possiblity to connect three speaker pairs.
Fine, often see recommendations for DeVore. Not easy to get hold on in Europe unfortunately. Will keep you posted!

can't we all just get along !! ;) I've started a Harbeth vs the world riot ...

I'm leaning towards the Tekton DI's ...difficult to just buy something and hope it suits me , I'm very picky about speakers/sound. 

08-12-2018 1:07pmi dont know
i feel like theres a limit to opinions and sometime we need to compare two speakers in the same room and the preference will be much less subjective then we think.

everyone who both heard, in my room, the graham ls59 and harbeth shl5plus prefered the harbeth. all i care to say.

This debate could go on endlessly if we start throwing in the differences in partnering gear and rooms. If we all heard exactly alike, we'd have the same size and shape of ears - our ear bones would have to be identical in shape and size as well, and have suffered the same level of deterioration. 

It seems to me you're inferring that you have the final say in what constitutes "natural" sound, simply because you've made some A/B comparisons with a few buddies. 

 You apparently believe in the importance measurements. If measured performance is so critical to the enjoyment of a speaker, you might as well go buy a $500 pair of studio monitors.

Peace.

I have ATC and have auditioned Harbeth extensively. The mid range of Harbeth is excellent. The bass is not as tight as I would like and the driver integration isn’t as good. That said Harbeth would easily be my second choice for a warm FM sounding speaker that works great at moderate volumes. They sound really sweet. Great for acoustic, small jazz ensemble, vocals etc - not the speaker of choice for a rock drummer though.

Harbeth mid range uses a soft cone material that is inert. Some form of polypropylene that remains soft and stable. Similar to ATC which use a doped fabric both drivers are intrinsically damped. I believe this is the trick to audibly superior mid range - others are chasing highly rigid materials for cones and these all have a characteristic resonances that are imparted on top of the music. An intrinsically damped cone has blacker blacks to use a visual analogy. This is why Harbeth mid range sounds so clean.

FWIW - the other BBC designs with the harder polypropylene material a la Rogers etc. can not compare to Harbeth. The harder polypropylene cones used in most other BBC knock offs imparts a nasal character to the mid range.

@tommypenngotti, I believe the Tekton DI, based on what I have read, and I have read it all, would be an excellent choice. To be clear, I still have not heard them, but the descriptions by owners and reviewers has me to believe they are as satisfying as can be, especially at the price. In fact, although I never posted on the Tekton threads, I would finally like to listen to a pair, and believe me when I say, I am very happy with my current system. With a money back guarantee, all you would be out is the shipping cost back, if it came to that. I am tempted myself. Enjoy ! MrD.

d2girls, really ? I sure hope you are joking. You do not want to get me started, and embarrass you yet on another thread. Enjoy ! MrD.

@helomech, ive had lots of studio monitors such as focal cms50, amphion one18. i also use a pair of genelec 1037b for my living room and a pair of atc scm7v3 for the bedroom.

flat measurements is a good first step to good sq but far from the only criteria.

as for believing my own experience, i do. first, i believe in good procedure when testing and comparing gear: level matched AB testin: any other test have been proven to be very susceptible to bias. then using a well treated room, with the same electronics.
you clearly never did such extensive pre requisite or even went close to this to compare the graham ls59 and harbeth shl5plus. you never even heard both in the same room. yet, you go around multiple forums claiming youve heard them all bbc speaker companies and that harbeth is the worst of the bunch.

Any opinion on the bigger PMC pro/home speakers? In a year or so the used price for a passive IB2i may come down to something within the budget of the OP. 

Tommy,  If you try out the Tektons go straight to the Tekton Double Impact SE. I traded up from the DI and am very happy.

LANCELOCK:
yikes $6500 is getting a bit high for me....what are the differences? thanks!

Harbeth mid range uses a soft cone material that is inert. Some form of polypropylene that remains soft and stable. Similar to ATC which use a doped fabric both drivers are intrinsically damped. I believe this is the trick to audibly superior mid range - others are chasing highly rigid materials for cones and these all have a characteristic resonances that are imparted on top of the music. An intrinsically damped cone has blacker blacks to use a visual analogy. This is why Harbeth mid range sounds so clean.

FWIW - the other BBC designs with the harder polypropylene material a la Rogers etc. can not compare to Harbeth. The harder polypropylene cones used in most other BBC knock offs imparts a nasal character to the mid range.

How on earth did you come to this conclusion? It couldn't be any further from reality. Harbeth by far uses the hardest polypropylene. It's obvious by simply tapping on them. The surface-doped cones of Stirling, and Spendor's EP77, and the clear cones of Graham and Spendor's EP38 are much softer to the touch. It's easy to understand how they're considered intrinsically damped - not at all like the Harbeth Radial material. 

as for believing my own experience, i do. first, i believe in good procedure when testing and comparing gear: level matched AB testin: any other test have been proven to be very susceptible to bias. then using a well treated room, with the same electronics.
you clearly never did such extensive pre requisite or even went close to this to compare the graham ls59 and harbeth shl5plus. you never even heard both in the same room. yet, you go around multiple forums claiming youve heard them all bbc speaker companies and that harbeth is the worst of the bunch.

I really don't need to do such tests. They've been proven to be unreliable anyway, as has been discussed to death in SHF. I claim they're the least good of the bunch, because to my ears, they don't even belong in the same conversation. Their sound doesn't justify the price. An example: the $1350 Vandersteen 1Cis blow the C7s away in almost every regard. The SHL5s have good clarity but they do nothing significantly better than many $2k speakers. Their resolution is lacking and they struggle to do the disappearing act. Harbeths as a whole are slightly warmer than many brands but are much brighter than all other BBC derivatives. One doesn't even have to listen to them in person, let alone the same room, level-matched with the same gear to hear it. It's a glaring difference that's obvious even in YouTube clips. I suppose I can understand the "warmth" claim if it's coming from an old timer, assuming that person has considerable high-frequency hearing loss.

Once again, I'm not a Harbeth hater as you claim. I simply believe they offer the lowest value proposition out of the BBC family. Again, I really wanted to prefer them, as they have the best aesthetics by far. Unfortunately, their sonics just don't compete. And next time a thread like this pops up, I will certainly chime in with my opinion, especially now that I know how much it gets your goat. Bye Bye now.

@d2girls

troll
trōl/
noun
a mythical, cave-dwelling being depicted in folklore as either a giant or a dwarf, typically having a very ugly appearance.

Well, I’m no Brad Pit doppelganger but no, not a troll. As I mentioned earlier, I’m not going to quit sharing my honest assessment out of concern for the sensitivities of others here. So you’re a millennial and bought 30.2s? Being that you’re young and probably haven’t suffered much hearing loss yet, do try to audition Stirling Broadcast SB-88s or Graham LS5/9s. Like yourself, I’m a relatively young guy around these parts, and I find these speakers sound far more natural. They have a warmer balance without any loss in detail (more detail in fact).

@d2girls

I’ll be happy to report on my findings of the 30.2 once I get them, if ever... I’m more qualified as to what constitutes as ’natural’ sound more then any of you, by the way.

Not all all of us here are complete music luddites. As a drummer, I hang a lot around real musicians. Some of their talent may rub off one day. One can but hope ;-)

Helomech,
so having two speakers in the same room, level matched, and taking many sessions with both speakers have been proven to be wrong? right

Interesting, in 2017 you bought unheard harbeth c7es3. was it because there was no dealer around? Did you really only heard the C7es3 model, yet go on and on talking about harbeth but only heard the C7es3 and rely on Youtube videos? My experience with c7es3 was that the treble was tiny bit edgy. is that why now you say that Harbeth are bright speakers?

Where did you actually heard the Graham, they have very weak distribution. I begin to doubt the honesty of your posts