This is my second posting on this subject. The initial posting was done
in 2014. I was asked to put updates, and changes.
As before I remind to all respected Audiophiles- It
is my personal guidance in buying and selling cartridges. I do 30-100
transactions every month and I need these numbers handy.
Before you look at the list I have to tell, that I’m not putting it for public use to
be involved in any discussion or answer any questions. I’m also not affiliated
with any of the brand or model on the list (even I have done some grading and
testing for few analog brands and audio dealers around the world). I'm happy if
my observations and experience help you in any way. Also I always answer all questions related to my listings and try
to fulfill requests on some rare models. I'm proudly inform all my customers
that I'm involved in production o ViRa tonearms. Please visit my site
virahighend.com for more information and some rare cartridges as well.
All general grading philosophy rules are copied
from my previous posting.
1. The testing was done on High End set up worse
around $100K
2. The results are from the last 9 years
3. Most of the cartridge evaluations were done on
uni-pivot or bi-axis arms. Only about 20% are from tangential and air tangent
arms.
4. Most of the cartridges were tested on 2 or 3
arms (except really low end)
5. The ratio of used and new cartridges
approximately 85% used and 15% new- therefore some cartridges could be not
working up to specs 100%
6. I have few re-build and re-tipped cartridges
on the list and sometimes they sounded better then original, sometimes they sounded worth.
7. There are many cartridges that have better
sonic value, but lower position over all. Some cartridge have great appearance,
mounting and re-sale value, but sound mediocre. If cartridges have same grading
points I try to put higher on the list cartridges with better sonic value and
cheaper original sale price.
////////////////////
The grading philosophy.
For the simplicity I have 10 grading categories. Each categories worth 10 points. There are 3
technical categories and 7 sonic categories. The best and maximum score could be 100 point.
The 3 technical categories are:
1. Appearance/ Packaging
Packaging and appearance are very important for
re-sale value.
2. Mounting and aligning
75% of cartridge damage occur at the mounting
and aligning process. Scary but fact. We are not talking about catastrophic
damage, but also scratches, dings etc. Therefore threaded multiple holes on
square angled body would get 10point compare to a round body or other type of
mounting holes/hooks. I love Miyabi or Mark Levinson MLC cartridges, but it's
almost impossible to mount and align these visually.
3. Resale value
35 years old $230 Grace F-9 Ruby and 5 years old
$5000 Linn Arkiv have the same "street" re-sale value.
30 points max for technical grading.
/////////////////
The 7 sonic categories are:
1. Low frequency
2. Mid frequency
3. High frequency
4. Soundstage with and depth
5. Background noise
6. Dynamics
7. Overall presentation and impression
Everything is simple and clear. Cartridge
overall is the first link and lost or mis-represented information from the
record would never be restored no matter how much $$$ you will invest in the
other links of your system.
To summarize all these:
The numbers on the left represent current ranking.
The 3 numbers on the right are technical grading (30 max), sonic grading
(70 max) and overall score(100 max)
BRAND MODEL TYPE TECH SONIC GRADE
Symphonic
Line RG-8L VDH MC 29 70 99
ZYX Omega 4D G SB MC 29 69
98
ZYX Omega 4D X SB MC 29 69
98
Haniwa HCTR01 MC 28 69 97
Shun
Mook Reference 2 MC 29 68
97
Aidas Panzerholz MC 27 69 96
Megasonics (Win
labs) MC-10 MC 27 69 96
Charisma MC-2 MC 28 68
96
EMT-Barco HSD-6 MC 28 68
96
Kiseki Blue Gold Spot MC 28 68
96
Krell/Miyabi KC-200 MC 28 68 96
EMT HSD -5 MC 28 68 96
Kiseki Blue Silver Spot MC 28 68
96
MFSL Miyabi carbon MC 28 68 96
Shinon Red
Boron (retip) MC 28 68 96
Transfiguration Temper Supreme MC 28 68
96
Transfiguration Orpheus MC 28 68 96
J.Allaerts MC-1
Boron MC 28 68 96
J.Allaerts MC1
B MKII (retip) MC 28 68 96
ZYX Universe S MC 28 68 96
ZYX Universe XS MC 28 68 96
Koetsu
Urushi Gold SS retip MC 27 68 95
Koetsu Onyx Platinum
Signature Diamond MC 27 68 95
Blue Electric Shake
Streamliner MI 27 68 95
Van Den Hul Black
Beauty XSP MC 27 68
95
Myajima
Shilabe MC 27 68 95
Benz
Micro RUBY Z MC 27 68
95
Benz
Micro Ruby 2 MC 27 68 95
Benz
Micro Ruby 3 MC 27 68 95
Bluenote Baldinotti Signature SS retip MC 27 68 95
I think some of you are coming down a bit hard on grgaudio. This list and the new revised one are of interest to me, because they contain many older cartridges I had never heard of and which might merit further investigation. That’s why I’ve called it informative, even if it's a subjective dealer’s opinion. This is not more biased than those ’reviews’ of new cartridges, which are only advertisements disguised as objective ’audio journalism’. I find that much more offensive.
I became interested in vintage cartridges, because I discovered by accident that there’s no major quality difference between old & new, contrary to what those reviewers always try to tell you. This piqued my interest to hear more of those ’oldies’, like many others here on this forum. Another reason is that I’ve become totally disgusted with the current pricing tactics of audio manufacturers, who seem to be in the business of accomodating trophy hunters who equate price with status. I refuse to play along with their game, like many others on this forum. If you must use the word ’crook’, use it here.
The ranking is of course just a crude indication of the quality level, nothing more. And I only look at the sonic ranking, those ’technical’ points are of no interest to me. I’ve noticed some strange anomalies as well, but that doesn’t disqualify the list as such. And I realise comparing used cartridges with unknown history is not exactly a level playing field, which may explain some of the anomalies. So there are plenty of caveats, but at least he doesn’t pretend otherwise. So I accept it ’warts and all’ and value it for what it is.
As for the Symphonic Line being a rebadged Grasshopper, I’m sure he knows this (the visual clues can hardly be overlooked). But I’ve learned that not all vdHul’s are created equal, even if their model numbers are the same. Would you believe that the biggest sonic difference I’ve ever experienced between two cartridges was between two Colibri’s?
50 turntables, 60-70 tonearms and 921 cartridges (including those in the other thread) over 10-12 years? It takes me weeks to properly evaluate a cartridge (since I also need to eat, drink, sleep, read, watch a bit of TV, work, get some fresh air, etc, etc) and here someone has compiled a subjective evaluation of 921 of them in what amounts to 4.75 days (time needed for other activities not subtracted) per cartridge?
Yeah, right. This must be one of the dumbest things I’ve ever seen.....
@halcro +1 Like I stated in the other thread...there are numerous errors and other odd results in the table that grgaudio posted. Now you tell him that the Symphonic Line and VdH Grasshopper are one and the same..oops!
Sine the OP has a vested interest in several of these cartridges and is a dealer of used cartridges...I think these threads are basically worthless to the hobbyist.
There was a
good movie decade ago- Fight Club. The great story about the guy with multiple
personalities. I might sell to my friends in Hollywood script of Fight Club -2;
story about AG member Chakster.
Daytime he's nobody, without particular job in Russian
St. Petersburg's suburb. He's collection of analog consist of junk 70-80s
cartridges and other discarded analog pieces that he buys occasionally. Decade
ago he purchased few cartridges from me that replaced total junk he had
and try to trade in. From this point he became a guru of analog. The other
chakstr's personality rules here. He's posting countless responses to any
analog topics. That would be OK if it wasn't his prophesy. He sounds normal,
but his posts are not real- it is just internet re-fabricated craziness that
reflects his vivid imagination. This is his virtual Fight Club and he 's King of the ring here. I gave up communicating or even noticing him years
and years ago, but he keep sh..ing under my door any chance he has.
grgaudio ripped me off too. Sold me a cartridge that didn’t sound right. Sent it to Soundsmith to see about it, and Soundsmith told me it was broken beyond repair. grgaudio would not answer emails for a long period of time, then around a month later he tells me he won’t do anything after such a long period of time, same MO as what he did with analogluvr, above. Guy's a crook.
@chakster so you got burnt by GRG Audio as well… I purchased a Benz with apparently 300 hours on it. When I received it life's circumstances intervened and I didn't get a chance to install it for a few months. When I finally did install it it was obvious that something was very very wrong. I sent it to Andy at the Needle clinic and he estimated it had about 1500 to 2000 hours on it. When I confronted GRG Audio he basically ignored me. Too much time had passed so I couldn't leave negative feedback.
I think chakster is bang on with his assessment of buying cartridges from enthusiasts as opposed to buying them from people who have a business trying to resell them.
I don't know why people always have to get their noses out of joint over an opinion. Those getting totally defensive obviously have an opinion also to which they are entitled . .. but in the final analysis, who cares?
The man is right in that there are so many variables in turntable combinations, tonearms, wiring, even electrical conditioning. Even if someone could possibly be rich enough or have all the resources in the world to make every possible combination possible . . . there is no way the end results would not be argued by someone, who had their delicate toes stepped on for one reason or another. IF, the immediate comparison does agree with your findings -- fine, argue your point, but don't get your blood pressure out of sorts over being that one individual, whose authority cannot be possibly questioned by anyone else without becoming offended. There are so variables in personal taste, ego, hearing quality, experience, etc. than for anyone to dogmatically destroy someone or get so upset over what -- a cartridge . . . a thing.
If you have proof of a particular premise -- state your facts and allow a wise and the fool come to their own conclusions. Arguing with either more than likely is not going to bring any unanimous conclusions. Debates can be fun . . . even teaches an ignorant man, who has an open mind a thing or two PERHAPS . . . but a fool . . . have you ever seen a fool ever react to anything with wisdom?
Now if someone threatens you and censors you for an opinion -- now THAT is an offense and a different topic altogether. Enjoy what you enjoy in equipment, take pride in your choices, be ready to give an opinion and debate -- but note that with some people -- they will argue until blue in the face for just the pleasure they get in just arguing for the sake of argument. Walk away.
Buying a used phono cartridge is always a very dicey proposition. Unless the buyer's plan is to immediately send it our for a retip or re-build, I can't imagine why anyone would bother. I know that many here have reported good luck buying used cartridges, but I'd never take the chance. The risk would seem to exceed the reward.
What is especially odd to me is when someone here posts his opinion about a particular phono cartridge that is based only on one single, used sample. Why would anyone place any faith in that opinion?
Personally i have multiply samples of all my favorite cartridge to make sure. Honestly, never had an issues bying used cartridges from honest sellers, most of them are just selling their personal cartridges (used and tested carefully). Some people just re-sell cartridges, those with too much transaction are physically can not check them out carefully, there is no serious inspection or a long listening tests, simply no time for this. They are concentrate on sales! The result is misinformation, often same amount of 200 hrs stated in the sales lists for the worn cartridges.
Those sellers often underrate the knowledge of the buyers. After the sale is done they are ignoring all the emails, PMs or even question sent to their multiply paypal accounts. Two sellers cheated me when i started my journey, both got too many sales per month.
I'm happy to buy great vintage cartridges from people who are not specialized on quick resale. These guys can answer all the questions and they are knew what they are selling, those people will never tell you the cartridge has 200 hrs on it when it's worn out and actually has more than 1000 hrs. They will never try to sell refurbished cart as the original. Honest sellers will never ignore the emails or PMs after the transaction is done.
@folkfreak
... perhaps the removal of the OPs post had less to do with his opinions on audio and more to do with his blatant casual and irrelevant misogyny?
Thank You Very interesting and somewhat helpful, I'd like to recommend adding the list price so value oriented people like myself can realistically judge your rating of performance verse cost.
I haven't audition Hana SL yet. I had few Hana EH and EL. Feels like Denon 103 very much, but wooden body killed the dynamics and It sounded like Ortofon M series. SL version with Shibata stylus and AlniCo magnet should sound better I hope. Strangely enough Hana does not publish compliance numbers. It is what it is- cheap attempt to capitalize on Grado/Benz look.
Maybe
that’s the reason why your used cartridges always have 200 hrs on them
and it seems universal for every listing i have seen. I wonder, how do
you know?
BTW After inspection of one of them at SoundSmith they
said it’s worn out (so in fact over 700 hrs for sure). Remember Sony
XL55? Also a problem with coil. If you have no time to check what you’re
re-selling then surely you have no time for free speech here on the
forum, also no time to reply on emails, pms etc. ...
P.S.
Only 2 cartridges out of 3 that i bought from you were ok, one of them
was defective and worn (but it was sold as lightly used or so), died
quickly.
Buying a used phono cartridge is always a very dicey proposition. Unless the buyer's plan is to immediately send it our for a retip or re-build, I can't imagine why anyone would bother. I know that many here have reported good luck buying used cartridges, but I'd never take the chance. The risk would seem to exceed the reward.
What is especially odd to me is when someone here posts his opinion about a particular phono cartridge that is based only on one single, used sample. Why would anyone place any faith in that opinion?
I cannot imagine doing this. I have had 27 different speaker pairs, at least 15 different amps, countless ICs and PCs. I am 79 and started audio in 1965. I am very happy now with my system and cannot imagine living with my Infinity ServoStatics, Audio Res. Dual 75s, and SP-3 and cheap ICs and speaker wires and attached PCs.
Ouch, i see @grgaudio It explains everything Glad you expressed yourself a little bit, but why you have removed your post quickly?
Maybe that’s the reason why your used cartridges always have 200 hrs on them and it seems universal for every listing i have seen. I wonder, how do you know?
BTW After inspection of one of them at SoundSmith they said it’s worn out (so in fact over 700 hrs for sure). Remember Sony XL55? Also a problem with coil. If you have no time to check what you’re re-selling then surely you have no time for free speech here on the forum, also no time to reply on emails, pms etc. Too busy, i see. Too many cartridges...
If you want to impress your amateur customers by "grading" using some numbers for bass and treble then copy/paste the frequency range from the manual, at least it was measured correctly when the cartridge was new. This grading is a joke and it was stated before by others.
P.S. Only 2 cartridges out of 3 that i bought from you were ok, one of them was defective and worn (but it was sold as lightly used or so), died quickly.
@grgaudio surely it’s your personal thing and your own "grading system" that no one understand. Personal experience is a great thing, but when someone asking for opinion on sertain cartridge then the answer with this list is really something ... unusual. It’s like your own chart of cartridges, but how many hrs did you spent with each of them? Even with my 50 cartridges in the past 5 years i could not spend all my free time testing them. When it comes to 500 cartridges it would be impossible (not to mention different arms, phono stages etc to switch and adjust).
I think people asking you "what’s the best cartridge?" (LOL) as they do here every week, just to save time and money to make their own conclusion by trying different cartridges (which is the best way).
The tricky situation is when a certain cartridge imrpess you today much more than yesterday. This is what people are posting on here when they are listening music with forgotten vintage MM after a years of using modern MC (and maybe vice versa). After a glass of wine or depends on the mood (or time of the day) our impression can be different. I just don’t understand how it is possible to make a chart of nearly 500 cartridges. Maybe it’s just me, but even with my current top 20 carts (and about 6 arms) i can not make a chart. It is not about the amount of bass or treble, it’s emotional contact with the music and each cartridge gives us slightly different presentation.
jtsnead,
I've heard all latest Ortofons, but I haven't got these on my
set ups yet- so I can't evaluate properly.
Most of new cartridges come for resale in 2-3 years after
initial purchase. Than we can see the estimated re-sale value and they become
closer to what they really should cost.
To put together average car takes 2000 parts, 6000 bolts,/nuts, 5000
welds, 3000 Lb of weight on one hand and 5 gram, 2 glue drops, 10 parts ZYX on the other hand at the same cost. We all
have been taken as hostages of our hobby. (love ZYX Omega and Shun Mook anyway)
I have to answer to all using word "nonsense" to
my list.
Read the top of my posting. IT IS MY PERSONAL GUIDANCE IN BUYING AND
SELLING CARTRIDGES.
You are in title of your opinion, but I have hundreds and hundreds
people asking me to put this list and updates for them. So I did.
To
answer in a broad way- some people are color blind, but it doesn't mean the red
or green colors are not there. Also red and green are red and green even in the
dark.
This is nonsence. Second list of some personal notes made by one seller over the years, not sure how this notes can help others.
We are all make notes for personal use, but the human brain is not a computer to analize numbers and decode them to emotions. When the quality reflected in numbers/digits it's weird! How anyone can compare so many used and new cartridges together? When you're listening cartridge number 500 you can't remember cartridge number 1 (if you have 498 more cartridges in between).
Each cartridge must be treated well (phono stage, arm, loading etc). There is nothing about your system, except for the price.
I see many mediocre cartridges in this list on top of the greater cartridges. Some overpriced MC are on top, some amazing cartridges are missed in this list !
There is a Soviet cartridge somewere in the middle, i'm surprised. Most of the carts in the list are the models you're selling often (used).
The best thing to do is to ignore both of your "grading lists" to make our own "grading", finding and testing what is the best in our own systems.
But i'm pretty sure there are people who would like to see and read stuff like that, thinking about it as a Billboard Chart! The only problem is "personal taste". What is good for you in your system is not good for someboby else on another system. This is useless for the most of us, unfortunately.
I have not. I had maybe 50 different tables and 60-70 arms for the past 10 years. The arm sounds unique or different with specific set up cartridge, leads, cable etc. Too many variables to compare and it would be not objective. I have my personal opinion about each one I've had but not evaluated similar way. One note I stand behind- is the importance of tonearm internal wiring. In my opinion it is most overlooked part of analog. When we were producing ViRa tonearms, we audition more than 40 wires and wire combinations. to find the most natural and balanced. You can put good wires in $10 junk arm and it will outplay $5K pieces.
Hold on... You've got 2 entries for the CartridgeMan Mm3 (156 & 210). Knowing that this one is very tonearm sensitive, what is the difference and which arm did you use?
I be interested to know what Raul, a seasoned journeyman, makes of this study.
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