I’ve only been in this audio game for 46 years, Amir.
What annoys most are two things:
1. Absolutes, with no tolerance for possibilities. Things are this way, the earth is flat etc.
2. Those who emphatically believe my experience is invalid, and our sanity is questionable at best.
Whatever happened to robust, reasoned discussion? If at an impasse. Agreeing to disagree. Respect even if in opposite camps?
If I state my beliefs on a range of topics on your ASR, I would be derided and ridiculed.
Best we stay in our own lanes…
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@amir_asr
I am professionally trained critical listener.
Without a proper room to listen in, total waste of training IMO.
If you want to get "schooled by Toole", check out his room. Why would you want to go there when you have SO much to learn yourself? I can see why you keep coming back here though, because you NEED it :). The Kota doesn’t even charge you a name tag fee like ASR does, sweet!
I consulted with the founder of Auro 3D, Wilfred Van Balen on my room treatments, and the Kota and the Toole both groove on Auro 3D (that's how REAL critical listeners roll Amir). If Dr Toole saw your room he would take your certificate in listening away and send you back to school:
"I choose to add moderate up-mixing to most of my stereo music, finding the adjustable Auro-3D implementation in the SDP-75 to be quite pleasant."
The following is a panoramic photo of the room (geometric distortion included) showing seating in the conversational mode. The equipment racks are on the right, under the projector opening - in what was a fireplace space in the original house.
The room was configured in 2000, as a 7.1 system. The front wall was deliberately constructed as a low-mid frequency sound scattering surface using display niches and other depth variations (including spaces behind the fabric covered doors) to alleviate the boundary effect for that wall. Two of the subwoofers are hidden in those cavities.
This became a huge advantage when I recently decided to wall mount the inverted Revel Salon2s to reduce their visual dominance - the huge loudspeakers retreat into the background visually, but remain firmly in place acoustically. The other loudspeakers in the room are clearly visible, which would be a deal breaker in many households. In this one, I am fortunate to have a wife who has long tolerated my hobby/profession, admitting that the audible rewards are enough to offset a certain amount of visual loudspeaker clutter. This system may have exceeded even those generous limits :-)
An in-ceiling loudspeaker is used as the Voice of God. Others could have replaced some or all of the elevation speakers. But, knowing that the direct sound has a dominant effect on timbre/sound quality I decided not to compromise, and used high quality bookshelf loudspeakers in custom mounts, aiming them at the prime listening location as shown in the following floor plan.
https://www.thescreeningroomav.com/single-post/2019/03/06/The-Ultimate-Real-World-Home-Theater-and-Listening-Room
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@jerrybj
Why would you even bother coming here Amir?
Well, it certainly isn't for hugs and kisses from the few of you this way! 😁
I came here because someone here created a thread saying Audio Science Review is a "cult" and is not open to any contrarian views. Since then, he and a few others have been working overtime to prove this forum is that way! There has also been a lot of misinformation which as you see, I have been correcting.
This thread is about measurements which is core to what we do at ASR. Perhaps for that reason a poster flagged me yet again so here I am.
Why are you in this thread? If you are not valuing measurements, and don't want to read my posts, surely you would want to hang around rest of the forum than this one.
Go back to where people appreciate what you say, and reinforce what you believe to be true. Hopefully a few others here follow you.
I am pretty sure people appreciate what proper audio science and engineering says about audio in here as well. A number of people have chimed in public and in private.
But yes, I do wonder at times whether my time is best spent elsewhere. To the extent there are no more misinformation is posted about me and ASR forum, I may indeed fade away....
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@ghdprentice
I would not begin to consider evaluating a single new component without listening to it for a couple months.
I appreciate that you think you need that much time to evaluate a component. But you and I are not similarly situated for many reasons:
1. I understand the full design and architecture of what I am testing. This allows me to focus on what their weakness and strengths are. An example of the former is a powered speaker. These routinely have amplifiers that run out of gas before their drivers do. So I test for that. I am not just shooting in the dark thinking any and all things need to be evaluated.
2. I use measurements which help immensely with #1 above. They show me objectively and reliability where I need to look. If a speaker has a dip in 2 kHz, I use equalization to fill that. I then perform AB testing to determine how audible that is. Measurements are quick. Electronics/tweaks take an afternoon. Speakers take about a day. With that in hand, and knowledge of the product, I am able to make very rapid progress in listening tests.
3. I have tested well over 1000 devices in the last 3 to 4 years. That has enabled me to build methods and systems for fast and reliable comparisons. For example, I have special music tracks that instantly tell me how well a speaker reproduces sub-bass. I know how the competitors to the speakers perform relative to what I am testing.
Audiophiles and "professional reviewers" throw random music at equipment with no aim or direction. So no wonder it takes them so much longer to learn something about the product. At the end they may just be guessing.
4. I am professionally trained critical listener. I also know psychoacoustics and research in this area that says long-term testing is completely unreliable. See the digest of this AES paper:
Here is the punchline there:
The results were that the Long Island group [Audiophile/Take Home Group] was unable to identify the distortion in either of their tests. SMWTMS's listeners also failed the "take home" test scoring 11 correct out of 18 which fails to be significant at the 5% confidence level. However, using the A/B/X test, the SMWTMS not only proved audibility of the distortion within 45 minutes, but they went on to correctly identify a lower amount. The A/B/X test was proven to be more sensitive than long-term listening for this task.
Or if you are more comfortable with video, a complete tutorial in listener training, my ability find small impairments and explanation of above paper:
5. Adaptation. Our brain adapts to its environment. Think of the your computer fan running. After a bit, you forget about it. This is adaptation in play. Same thing happens with say, a speaker that is bright. Listen to it for a while and you adapt and no longer think it is bright. It becomes the "new normal." This is why speakers rank the same in formal studies regardless of the room they are tested in. Your brain learns to listen through the room. From point of view of reviewing, you want to give the true nature of the sound, not what you have adapted to.
Dr. Toole explains this effect very well in his wonderful book:
I could go on but I hope you get the message that I follow the science and research in what I do. What you and other reviewers do is based on lay impressions and what others have told you. You have no proof point that you are creating reliable results. Indeed, research shows as I post earlier, that professional reviewers are terribly unreliable in their assessment of speaker sound.
So you do what you want to do. But unless you can prove your methodology to be right, and better, there is no argument here.
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Why would you even bother coming here Amir?
Anything you say bears no weight in any way to my audio choices. We are at polar opposites of how to choose equipment.
You have your loyal followers on ASR. I don’t go on there and criticise your beliefs. If I joined up and said what I believe, I would be booted out. Go back to where people appreciate what you say, and reinforce what you believe to be true. Hopefully a few others here follow you.
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Amir,
I am sure you are well intended. But you provide evidence that you do not understand what quality audio is all about in your posts.
You listen to half of the units? and process 300 units per year? I would not begin to consider evaluating a single new component without listening to it for a couple months. This would be only after being completely familiar with my system without change for months… many months. This establishes a base line of a sound you understand at all levels. This is a reference system. A professional reviewer will spend months evaluating a single component.
Have you read professional reviews? Reviewers have systems they understand inside and out. Then they spend, what a hundred… sometimes several hundred hours listening. The complexity of sound reproduction is layer upon layer of nuance. Which is why a whole glossary of terminology to describe the nuances of sound reproduction exists. Rhythm and pace, micro-details…etc.
It now makes sense how your charts match your perceived quality. The sonic evaluation is so cursory that all you pick up is the very gross highest level characteristics of the sound. This is not at all what high performance audio is about. It is about communicating the full breath and depth of the musical experience… not the wire-frame representation.
When I attend a live symphony it can be so emotionally moving that it brings tears to my eyes. I am left breathless in the beauty created by the music. My audio system can do that. This is what the pursuit is about. Doing this requires incredible dedication in people that produce components to achieve this, and in evaluation of sound far in excess of a few variable, and in choosing and assembling a system. Great components come from designers that work by listening to their products long after they have run out of variables to measure.
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@juanmanuelfangioii , don’t you think our guest from ASR has done a fantastic job confirming the title of this thread, basically proving why specs are pointless.
1) He is reviewing speakers in a room that is barren wood so you know whatever the specs say they won’t sound like that in his room (or any other gear played in that room for that matter).
2) He is reviewing home theater gear without actually using it in a home theater so he can only imagine what "the specs" sound like in real world conditions, LOL.
3) He can’t/won’t fix any of his problems it so the specs will never help, no matter what they are, so essentially, they won’t matter right?
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I'd like to slag off most of the posters on this thread.
From what they say, it just seems like the right thing to do....
Translation: try to be objective and less personal.
On point. Comparing specifications is utterly pointless unless you also listen to the gear. If you listen, then specifications have relevance.
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@amir_asr
You have this backward. I bring the quality.
I have yet to "see" this quality you are claiming. Where is it? In your wooden room with two speakers? In your mystery home theater? LOL.
We have a video from Dolby Labs that defines what a "quality" room posted in this thread. If you are reviewing atmos receivers this should be table stakes at a minimum. You are a dealer, you got the resources, now get started:
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@amir_asr Good set of arguments about your independence, methods, selectivity. You could depart this thread having done due diligence, and who could blame you.
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Amir I did not ask you for anything. I am not your demographic.
You came here. Go back to your catbox then.
And what is this poop?
You are lying again. Your words I do not have time to do listening test doing 300 reviews a year.
Also when I am buying speakers I do not use any review sites. (not yours for sure) 1). again I am not your demographic, 2) I do in home auditions on my system, in my listening room.
I would never trust any reviewer including or especially you.
They could not remotely provide consistent results of listening to the same set of speakers. You would want to put your trust in that???
When I perform listening tests, it is not for writing novels. It is to focus and quantify keep weaknesses in products
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@juanmanuelfangioii
@amir_asr So how do the folks at other review based organizations do it? Sterophile, PTA, M&S, PF, ... I know they are better equipped in both staff and technology, and they are dedicated to one mission or job, Reviews.
Quality not quantity. You just validated what many are saying here.
You have this backward. I bring the quality. They bring fiction. Anyone can write a word salad about how something "sounds." You have no way of verifying anything they have said. Their reviews are also universally positive. Here are my stats from the ASR Review Index:
Total Devices Tested by Amir 1,177
Total Devices Recommended by Amir 495
Recommended Devices By Amir % 36%
As you see, I find issues with 2/3 of the products I test. I have the freedom to say so because I either buy the product myself or a membrer sends it. I am not beholding to a manufacture who sends me gear to give a positive review.
But let's say their motives are pure. Their listening tests are not worth bits that are used to store them online. Here is how they did when testing speakers -- something that should be easy for them -- in formal double blind study:
http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2010/12/how-to-listen-course-on-how-to.html
You see how poorly the audio reviewers did? They could not remotely provide consistent results of listening to the same set of speakers. You would want to put your trust in that???
When I perform listening tests, it is not for writing novels. It is to focus and quantify keep weaknesses in products. And to see if measurements are correctly predicting performance.
What is great here is that audiophiles are appreciating the value of proper audio reviews as opposed to fiction. Here is our traffic compared to stereophile.com for example:
We have 3X the reach despite being much younger site. You want to continue to live in the past, you can. But please don't ask me to feed you nonsense in my reviews.
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Again you just validated what many here have been saying. You should not even be considered in the realm of professional reviewer's.
You keep stepping in your own poop.
@amir_asr ,
I perform 2-channel testing because a) a lot of people want to use their AV products for music also and b) I use 2-channel systems as the standard that the AV industry needs to strive to match.
I know they are better equipped in both staff and technology, and they are dedicated to one mission or job, Reviews.
Quality not quantity. You just validated what many are saying here.
Seeing how I review nearly 300 audio devices a year, that is a hell of a lot of listening tests!
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@amir_asr
How did the Denon "perform" when you set it up in your home theater as it was designed to be used? Good luck with that, this is why you keep getting comments about not listening to gear.
You said:
Go and fix the sound of your system.
I started a new thread here on setting up an Atmos system, you would like it, lots of technical detail, feel free to check it out and fix the sound of your system..
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@kota1
I am not being critical of your ability to use a laptop and a mic. The fact that Denon’s own measurements matches yours is good The issue I am bringing to your attention is obvious, you have to review it under the conditions it is designed to be used. You can’t do that with just 2 speakers, OK?
No, it is not "OK." I just got done explaining all of this to you. Go watch that video. If you don't understand it, ask questions. If you understand it but disagree, come back with comprehensive research that I showed there why you don't want to test multichannel EQ systems in multi-channel.
But maybe you think I should do what other "reviewers" do. Play some movies through the AVR and write fiction about how said movie soundtrack sounded. I don't do stuf like that. Go and seek our those sources.
Finally, I have a separeate dedicated theater. If there ever was a need, I can test in there but there never has been. No company has asked for that either and that list includes some of the highest-end AV companies such as Trinnov, Storm, etc.
So don't keep bringing up these lay arguments. Go and fix the sound of your system. Measure what it is producing now and post that. You are the best example of how science and engineering can help you. You screwed up following online stuff you heard. Now is your chance to improve your system sound and instead are wasting time with all these complaining....
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@westcoastaudiophile
"Every Denon and Marantz review is done with prior consultation with the company"
LOL! -what is your price tag for “agreed" review?
Well, you tell me. Here is the conclusion of the Denon AVR-X3800H Review:
Conclusions
I had high hopes going into this review thinking the company had seen the advantage its superior objective measurements in the past and would try to capitalize on them. Sadly, the reverse seems to be true with the DAC section taking a large step backward. Considering that the 3800 costs $500 more than 3700H, this is very surprising to me. Yes, inflation has a lot to do with that but surely the eye needed to be focused on making sure they at least met the same level of performance as last generation.
The good news is that the amplifier seems to be same design as last generation and has only taken a small hit.
Denon had been my "goto" recommendation for AVRs and even AVPs. When anyone asked me about either, I would just say "get a Denon AVR." While subjectively the performance of this new generation may be similar, I can't accept the regression in objective measured performance.
It is with much sadness that I cannot recommend the Denon AVR-X3800H.
You think this is something they would pay for? I would think not.
I have an informal agreement with D&M to run my measurements by them in advance of a review. It is an exception to the rule of testing membership products. I am not sure of their reaction to the latest review so maybe they break the relationship for the future, I don't know. What I do know is that the few of you keep shooting from the hip trying to sow discord. :(
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"Every Denon and Marantz review is done with prior consultation with the company"
LOL! -what is your price tag for “agreed" review?
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@amir_asr ,
I perform 2-channel testing because a) a lot of people want to use their AV products for music also and b) I use 2-channel systems as the standard that the AV industry needs to strive to match.
This is completely wrong. You perform only 2 channel testing because you are forced to, you only have 2 speakers, LOL.
I am not being critical of your ability to use a laptop and a mic. The fact that Denon’s own measurements matches yours is good The issue I am bringing to your attention is obvious, you have to review it under the conditions it is designed to be used. You can’t do that with just 2 speakers, OK?
I think you have to do both 2 channel testing as well as MCH. You know how many people that buy that receiver that will use it strictly in 2 channel? 0
Do you know how much value a half baked (you didn’t actually ever use the receiver as a customer would when you reviewed it) provides? 0.
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Some good information here. Benefitting from the more informational posts, despite some lamentable trolling. Appreciate Amir getting into the back and forth.
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@amir_asr So how do the folks at other review based organizations do it? Sterophile, PTA, M&S, PF, ... I know they are better equipped in both staff and technology, and they are dedicated to one mission or job, Reviews.
Quality not quantity. You just validated what many are saying here.
Seeing how I review nearly 300 audio devices a year, that is a hell of a lot of listening tests!
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@jerryg123
@amir_asr Stick to your base. Kids with limited financial resources.
Oh? So only rich old people hang around this forum? Didn't know! Others agree? How old are you? And how wealthy are you?
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@kota1
@amir_asr you said:
Even major companies like Denon are using and producing same measurements as me although sadly they are not releasing them to consumers.
OK, let’s take a look at the Sound United "Experience Center" where they test the gear as it is meant to be used, in a proper setup. You have two speakers in an untreated room with a mic and a PC. Your in room FR that looks like the Mississippi river during a hurricane.
You don’t have the proper conditions to even listen to MCH gear much less review it, you know that, please stop, ok?
You have gotten a lot wrong there. Let me start at the top. Every Denon and Marantz review is done with prior consultation with the company. See my last review of Denon AVR-X3800H for example:
And this statement: "I grabbed a preliminary set of measurements from the DAC section of the 3800H and ran it by the company. Within typical margin of error, the measurements were the same as company's own."
So we have the company being fine with my work, but you think something is wrong with my testing?
No, there is nothing wrong. I perform 2-channel testing because a) a lot of people want to use their AV products for music also and b) I use 2-channel systems as the standard that the AV industry needs to strive to match.
Keep in mind that nothing different happens in an AVR because you have 2 speakers or 10. Each is calibrated independent of any other channel. What more than 2 channel does however, is screw up your perception of fidelity. Research shows the more channels in playback system, the less critical listeners get.
The above is the reason behind you screwing up the response of your system completely yet still think it is all fine. You are lost in the spatial qualities of multi-channel, not realizing tonality is screwed up, and bass sucked out of the system. The research behind this is solid as a rock:
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@cleeds
This guy @amir_as is just the latest Youtuber wannabe guru to use Audiogon as a tool to drive traffic to their website where they hope to generate revenue.
My youtube channel has no monetization (ads) even though I am fully qualified to do so. ASR likewise has no advertising, no sponsors, no nothing. So there is absolutely no gain for me.
In return however, every time I post here, it generates traffic, more ads for you to see, etc. So contribution is one-way in favor of Audiogon.
Regardless, I am only posting in a couple of threads because ASR was mentioned specifically by name.
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@amir_asr , I know you listen, it is obvious that you sincerely enjoy this hobby.
Just drop $1-2K and fix your room. You know the difference it makes and you will be able to discern the nuances of the equipment you review in a more critical listening environment. I think the issue here is more about what you are hearing in your room because it has a jumble of both direct and reflected sound from all those flat hard surfaces vs if you listen or not.
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@juanmanuelfangioii
How about you listen to the equipment you review instead of just measuring befor formulating an opinion.
I listen to well over half of all devices I review. Every speaker, headphone, headphone amp/dac, gets listened to for example. Seeing how I review nearly 300 audio devices a year, that is a hell of a lot of listening tests! Certainly more than any other reviewer out there by far.
So you are completely wrong about that. How did you get your information anyway? Just listened to someone else's talking point?
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That’s it I went to ASR and I am converted.
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@jerryg123 , you forget, kids today don’t have access to dealers any more. Sending them to ASR is a terrible suggestion. Better they meet some of our members and hear the real deal firsthand, don’t you agree?
@amir_asr , I still appreciate you posting your system. Hopefully the fact you keep coming back to our site is helping some of the stuff we are sharing with you start to sink in. Everything matters, the room, the cables, the power, the source, etc. You can’t just measure one anything, stick a panther on it, and expect it to produce the goods. You gotta build a room around it first, plug it into pure power, connect it with quality cables, and then calibrate (last step). Why not start posting some stuff about taking a bunch of gear you like and putting it together in a system, isn’t that what most dealers do? Just no MCH until you get setup properly for it.
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@amir_asr Stick to your base. Kids with limited financial resources.
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I went to the ASR site about six months or so ago. I read many review (most of the content) and conclusions. I particularly focused on components I had personal experience with. From a detailed analysis of method, reviews and conclusions I realized it was perhaps well intended but naive, misguided and misleading. To the beginner, it embodies the essence of what it takes to send them in the wrong direction if they wish to get good sound quality for a budget.
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@amir_asr you said:
Even major companies like Denon are using and producing same measurements as me although sadly they are not releasing them to consumers.
OK, let’s take a look at the Sound United "Experience Center" where they test the gear as it is meant to be used, in a proper setup. You have two speakers in an untreated room with a mic and a PC. Your in room FR that looks like the Mississippi river during a hurricane.
You don’t have the proper conditions to even listen to MCH gear much less review it, you know that, please stop, ok?
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Oh I have and that is because they get kicked!
How about you listen to the equipment you review instead of just measuring befor formulating an opinion.
How about you go and read a review on ASR and watch a video or two before forming an opinion? They will be devoid of this kind of bickering I am responding to.
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@tantejuut
The problem is a lack of standards in specs and measurement methods between companies and reviewers.
This is part of the problem. The biggest issue is that companies are either not measuring, or have rudimentary/obsolete gear for doing so. Perfect example is Schiit. To save money they had bought this old, obsolete audio analyzer. Once they saw my measurements, at first started to complain, throw rocks, etc. Then they got their senses and not only bought the same Analyzer I have, but substantially improved the performance of their gear. They now publish Audio Precision reports for every product they release -- quite admirable.
Even major companies like Denon are using and producing same measurements as me although sadly they are not releasing them to consumers.
A big barrier is the cost of this gear. THe hardware is around $30,000. For a company though, it is reasonable to purchase but they don't feel pressure yet. But they will as the value of measurements continues to broaden to more and more consumers.
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The software was updated in 2022, it is a new version. Get the upgrade for your Denon, good luck.
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@jerryg123
@cleeds @ghdprentice @kota1 you all nailed it and are calling a spade a ♠️.
I have never been on the ASR site but have seen the musings of Amir’s followers, and that told me enough. Watched on YouTube video of Amir’s and that was enough for me.
How about you go and read a review on ASR and watch a video or two before forming an opinion? They will be devoid of this kind of bickering I am responding to.
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@kota1
@amir_asr indeed, all the stuff you posted about Audyssey is for the consumer version with the $20 paid app. The version I use has a different license (around $200), a calibrated microphone with a serial number that gets linked to that license, and software for PC.
I have had the Pro version for some 15 years. Everything I told you applies to it. You must use the editor to create a proper target curve. And learn to measure yourself to understand what it is really doing.
The fact that you post that output thinking your room has that kind of flat response shows that you have no idea what you are doing. All you did was run some automated calibration and blindly convinced yourself it must be perfect now. Instead of posting here, learn to measure your room. If you don't know how, I have written a tutorial on Room EQ Wizard:
Until then, you have NOT post a single measurement of your room response. None. Come back when you have one.
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@cleeds @ghdprentice @kota1 you all nailed it and are calling a spade a ♠️.
I have never been on the ASR site but have seen the musings of Amir’s followers, and that told me enough. Watched on YouTube video of Amir’s and that was enough for me.
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@cleeds
That must be it. To me, it just looks like fun with charts. I used to use charts to understand the performance of an organization. I’d find correlations then dig down to the cause and find it had nothing to do with the organization, but some the accounting system’s allocation mechanism. I found all sorts of correlations that turned out meaningless. In chemical and radioactive abundances in a previous career where they were interesting but useless as a predictor.
My systems are shown under my UserID
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It is a good read, but also an advertisement for there own measurement 'skills'. The problem is a lack of standards in specs and measurement methods between companies and reviewers. Comparing specs can be usefull. You don't combine for example a SET amp with an Apogee speaker. Specs, like wattage or sensitivity matter, to name a few. So I don't agree with the author that is pointless to compare.
The Alpha Audio guys are just starting with measuring, and are trying to learn something. That is always a good thing in audio. It is journey for all of us.
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@amir_asr indeed, all the stuff you posted about Audyssey is for the consumer version with the $20 paid app. The version I use has a different license (around $200), a calibrated microphone with a serial number that gets linked to that license, and software for PC. The chart in my profile is generated so an installer can show a customer the before and after (actual). The db and hz legends aren’t in that chart. They are in the PC software when you customize the curves before I save and upload them to my processor though. You must have thought I was using the $20 app or some other type of software.
For the Denon receiver you posted about you can get a license for the upgrade for that unit at the Microsoft store.
As for your comments about Audyssey it is a shame that you haven’t gotten to try the update yet for your Denon receiver. See:
and
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I have no idea what you gain from your deceptive site and posts. I like charts, I was a practicing scientist for over a decade ... You are not capturing the essence of the real problem but side tracking those that actually want to learn about this complex and interesting pursuit. You are adding no value for folks that are attempting to build great sounding systems.
This guy @amir_as is just the latest Youtuber wannabe guru to use Audiogon as a tool to drive traffic to their website where they hope to generate revenue. It’s no more complicated than that and there’s no reason to take them seriously.
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@amir_asr , one more thing, if that is the setup you use to review MCH processors and receivers you need to stop reviewing them. You should review gear after using it as it was designed to be used, as well as measure it. If you want to review MCH gear use a MCH setup.
You spent $100K to measure a speaker in a way no one will ever use it. Now spend $1000 on the room that you use your speakers in every day. (I recommend Auralex, YMMV, they have specs and measurements on their website for all their products)
Audiogon Forum 1- ASR 1
(you get a point for showing up and sharing)
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@amir_asr , congratulations on posting something, it took a while but you stepped up. I look forward to comparing notes.
If you want to share your thoughts about my system, great. I’ll do same about yours later.
As for Audyssey I don’t think you are accurate about the software. You are using the app from the phone, that isn’t what I use at all. My software is PC based. As for Audyssey Pro there are different versions of the software and maybe you used one of the older versions. The version I am using was just updated this year. The chart I printed is before (black) and actual after (red), red is not some random target curve.
(I knew you were jealous of my "nodes").
You are thinking of ARC where the red is indeed just a target. Look at the graphs on my front height speakers, that red after curve wouldn’t be a desired target, that is what it is, the actual FR.
Now, why did you blow that big wad of cash on a golf swing panther speaker and stick them in that headless panther room with hard flat surfaces? Why not save money if you knew you couldn’t treat the room and just get one of the less expensive models?
As for the amps are they broken as a member here mentioned? They look great anyway.
Unless you step up your room I think you will never get a truly excellent result, just serviceable.
Next question, why are your speakers at that particular angle from the MLP? I set my front L-R speakers at the dolby specs of within 22 to 30 degrees. I moved the MLP forward in the room and have the same distance from the speakers in front of the room as the ones in back.
As for goals as you see in my overview I am primarily a MCH listener for music and movies, 2 channel only about 10% of the time in that system.
How did you position your MLP and why? It looks too far back from the pic.
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@kota1
I think he is just jealous of my "nodes" :)
Once again, you have no idea of how your room measures. You post this:
This is the output of Audyssey Pro. You made no measurements of your own so have no idea what this represents so let me explain.
On the left in black are what Audyssey measured as your room response. This shows the usual room modes and other response errors. Alas, there are no scales. You have no ideal how big or small those variations are. Further, you don’t know how much smoothing is applied which again, can hide issues.
Audyssey proceeds to create its correction filters. Those filters are based on what is shown in red on the right. It however, NEVER shows you the response after applying those targets!!! That’s right. Your room response is not remotely like that. Those red curves are the "targets" used, not what is achieved.
Don’t believe me? Here is a test of Auddyssey I performed with my system/room where I show what it says it did versus reality:
Black is the response with no EQ. Light pink is what Audyssey claims to have done. The reality/measured response is in red. As you see, they are NOT at all the same. And that is with me applying a lot of smoothing to actual measurements to help make it look similar.
Most importantly here, you have screwed up and did not create the proper target curve. Audyssey by default makes two major mistakes:
1. Uses a flat target curve. This is perceptually wrong and will make your system very bass light post correction. The proper target curve is what I show in my measurement above. It has increased bass response to make it sound more balanced and natural. Formal research shows that without this fix, Audyssey actually makes the system sound worse, not better:
This is the result of listening tests from that study:
Audyssey using the same target curve you did is #6 all the way to the right. It produced lower listener preference than no EQ!!!
2. You left the so called "BBC dip" in the target. This is that little notch in mid-frequencies. It is a mistaken belief that speakers in general are too hot in that region and so response should be pulled down. This is completely wrong. You need to override it and make that flat like the target I created (light pink).
Net, net, your system is improperly equalized. And you do NOT have any kind of measurements for you to understand it. Learn the topic for heaven’s sake.
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@kota1
@ghdprentice , he doesn’t have the goods, he is deceptive because he has to be, if he had the goods he would post them. He wrote a full page boasting about his creds and not even one mention of his own gear?
My system and link to it including measurements was has been posted multiple times. Here it is again:
If he had even a halfway decent system he would be just as braggadocious.
No, I am a private person and don't want to walk around bragging about my own system. I only post it out of necessity where a test requires it as it did here:
I let you go on thinking I don't want to post it to see how far you go with it. Boy did you go far even though so often the answer was given! You truly lack common sense and skills to have debates like this.
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Sounds just like those idiots in DC.
This is not a thread about my room. Or any room for that matter. It is about audio gear specs/measurements
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