Good read: why comparing specifications is pointless

@amir_asr

I am professionally trained critical listener.

Without a proper room to listen in, total waste of training IMO.

If you want to get "schooled by Toole", check out his room. Why would you want to go there when you have SO much to learn yourself? I can see why you keep coming back here though, because you NEED it :). The Kota doesn’t even charge you a name tag fee like ASR does, sweet!

I consulted with the founder of Auro 3D, Wilfred Van Balen on my room treatments, and the Kota and the Toole both groove on Auro 3D (that's how REAL critical listeners roll Amir). If Dr Toole saw your room he would take your certificate in listening away and send you back to school:

"I choose to add moderate up-mixing to most of my stereo music, finding the adjustable Auro-3D implementation in the SDP-75 to be quite pleasant."

The following is a panoramic photo of the room (geometric distortion included) showing seating in the conversational mode. The equipment racks are on the right, under the projector opening - in what was a fireplace space in the original house.

The room was configured in 2000, as a 7.1 system. The front wall was deliberately constructed as a low-mid frequency sound scattering surface using display niches and other depth variations (including spaces behind the fabric covered doors) to alleviate the boundary effect for that wall. Two of the subwoofers are hidden in those cavities.

This became a huge advantage when I recently decided to wall mount the inverted Revel Salon2s to reduce their visual dominance - the huge loudspeakers retreat into the background visually, but remain firmly in place acoustically. The other loudspeakers in the room are clearly visible, which would be a deal breaker in many households. In this one, I am fortunate to have a wife who has long tolerated my hobby/profession, admitting that the audible rewards are enough to offset a certain amount of visual loudspeaker clutter. This system may have exceeded even those generous limits :-)

An in-ceiling loudspeaker is used as the Voice of God. Others could have replaced some or all of the elevation speakers. But, knowing that the direct sound has a dominant effect on timbre/sound quality I decided not to compromise, and used high quality bookshelf loudspeakers in custom mounts, aiming them at the prime listening location as shown in the following floor plan.

https://www.thescreeningroomav.com/single-post/2019/03/06/The-Ultimate-Real-World-Home-Theater-and-Listening-Room

Hmmmm, a kind of paralysis by analysis. 

Specs, in order of importance IMO:

1) in room FR

2) in room FR

3) in room FR

Unless you get that one the way you want I would agree, the rest of the specs are pointless.

I am agreeing with "Good read: Why comparing specifications is pointless"

You take Revel or some other good measuring speaker, put it in a room with hard flat surfaces and you don’t need a FR chart to know that it ain’t singing like it could.

What is the point of having a golf swing panther DAC in a headless panther room? You tell me...

@amir_asr

The measurements you do on speakers is actually the least useful, see:

Acoustic measurements for our uses are of three principle varieties.

1. • To measure the acoustic response of a loudspeaker, usually exclusive of the environment. (this is ASR)
2. • To measure the acoustic sound field in a room, usually inclusive of the response of the loudspeaker. (this is my point in the above post)
3. • To measure the noise level in a space.

The first two are closely related measures since room response and loudspeaker response are tightly coupled. The first measure is by far the most common, but, as we shall see, they are usually inadequate as an indicator of how the second measure will come out. Of course, what we want is a correct room response

(Earl Geddes: Premium Home Theater Design and Construction, CH 5)

You asked me:

Who are you agreeing with, yourself?

and I answered in my post that followed.

Now you answer my question:

What is the point of having a golf swing panther DAC in a headless panther room?

@amir_asr 

OK, so please share the measurements of YOUR room so we can all benefit from how you address sound reproduction.

You state "audiophiles" can learn to treat room modes. Does that include you???

As for looks try this:

@amir_asr ,

sore loser

Audiogon Forum 1- ASR-0

If you want to win the game you gotta be in the game, post already.

Still waiting @amir_asr , if I got a lot to learn you say you are a teacher, get busy and post the goods, otherwise just more hot air, yada, yada, yada

Audiogon Forum 1- ASR 0

@amir_asr , I walked the walk, my "nodes" are fine as you can see in my profile. As for yours, IDK what you are teaching but apparently you still have a lot to learn.

I suggest you pick up a copy of Geddes book "Premium Home Theater Design and Construction", you don’t even have a decent room for your gear yet from that pic @prof shared.

As for Toole, come join us in the FR thread, I have some stuff posted that may help you get your FR straightened out, that graph @prof posted of your room looked a little sloppy, you are abusing the DSP, it isn't designed for a total makeover.

@amir_asr , one more thing, if that is the setup you use to review MCH processors and receivers you need to stop reviewing them. You should review gear after using it as it was designed to be used, as well as measure it. If you want to review MCH gear use a MCH setup.

You spent $100K to measure a speaker in a way no one will ever use it. Now spend $1000 on the room that you use your speakers in every day. (I recommend Auralex, YMMV, they have specs and measurements on their website for all their products)

Audiogon Forum 1- ASR 1

(you get a point for showing up and sharing)

@ghdprentice , he doesn’t have the goods, he is deceptive because he has to be, if he had the goods he would post them. He wrote a full page boasting about his creds and not even one mention of his own gear?

If he had even a halfway decent system he would be just as braggadocious.

Since he can’t post what he doesn’t have he just points fingers to distract attention away from his own system.

I did offer him a rematch though, we’ll see if he actually has any game (but I suspect not)

I think he is just jealous of my "nodes" :)

@amir_asr , congratulations on posting something, it took a while but you stepped up. I look forward to comparing notes.

If you want to share your thoughts about my system, great. I’ll do same about yours later.

As for Audyssey I don’t think you are accurate about the software. You are using the app from the phone, that isn’t what I use at all. My software is PC based. As for Audyssey Pro there are different versions of the software and maybe you used one of the older versions. The version I am using was just updated this year. The chart I printed is before (black) and actual after (red), red is not some random target curve.
(I knew you were jealous of my "nodes").

You are thinking of ARC where the red is indeed just a target. Look at the graphs on my front height speakers, that red after curve wouldn’t be a desired target, that is what it is, the actual FR.

Now, why did you blow that big wad of cash on a golf swing panther speaker and stick them in that headless panther room with hard flat surfaces? Why not save money if you knew you couldn’t treat the room and just get one of the less expensive models?

As for the amps are they broken as a member here mentioned? They look great anyway.

Unless you step up your room I think you will never get a truly excellent result, just serviceable.

Next question, why are your speakers at that particular angle from the MLP? I set my front L-R speakers at the dolby specs of within 22 to 30 degrees. I moved the MLP forward in the room and have the same distance from the speakers in front of the room as the ones in back.

As for goals as you see in my overview I am primarily a MCH listener for music and movies, 2 channel only about 10% of the time in that system.

How did you position your MLP and why? It looks too far back from the pic.

The software was updated in 2022, it is a new version. Get the upgrade for your Denon, good luck.

@cleeds +1, yep, you nailed it

@amir_asr indeed, all the stuff you posted about Audyssey is for the consumer version with the $20 paid app. The version I use has a different license (around $200), a calibrated microphone with a serial number that gets linked to that license, and software for PC. The chart in my profile is generated so an installer can show a customer the before and after (actual). The db and hz legends aren’t in that chart. They are in the PC software when you customize the curves before I save and upload them to my processor though. You must have thought I was using the $20 app or some other type of software.

For the Denon receiver you posted about you can get a license for the upgrade for that unit at the Microsoft store.

As for your comments about Audyssey it is a shame that you haven’t gotten to try the update yet for your Denon receiver. See:

and

@amir_asr you said:

Even major companies like Denon are using and producing same measurements as me although sadly they are not releasing them to consumers.

OK, let’s take a look at the Sound United "Experience Center" where they test the gear as it is meant to be used, in a proper setup. You have two speakers in an untreated room with a mic and a PC. Your in room FR that looks like the Mississippi river during a hurricane.

You don’t have the proper conditions to even listen to MCH gear much less review it, you know that, please stop, ok?

@amir_asr , I know you listen, it is obvious that you sincerely enjoy this hobby.

Just drop $1-2K and fix your room. You know the difference it makes and you will be able to discern the nuances of the equipment you review in a more critical listening environment. I think the issue here is more about what you are hearing in your room because it has a jumble of both direct and reflected sound from all those flat hard surfaces vs if you listen or not.

@jerryg123 , you forget, kids today don’t have access to dealers any more. Sending them to ASR is a terrible suggestion. Better they meet some of our members and hear the real deal firsthand, don’t you agree?

@amir_asr , I still appreciate you posting your system. Hopefully the fact you keep coming back to our site is helping some of the stuff we are sharing with you start to sink in. Everything matters, the room, the cables, the power, the source, etc. You can’t just measure one anything, stick a panther on it, and expect it to produce the goods. You gotta build a room around it first, plug it into pure power, connect it with quality cables, and then calibrate (last step). Why not start posting some stuff about taking a bunch of gear you like and putting it together in a system, isn’t that what most dealers do? Just no MCH until you get setup properly for it.

@amir_asr ,

I perform 2-channel testing because a) a lot of people want to use their AV products for music also and b) I use 2-channel systems as the standard that the AV industry needs to strive to match.

This is completely wrong. You perform only 2 channel testing because you are forced to, you only have 2 speakers, LOL.

I am not being critical of your ability to use a laptop and a mic. The fact that Denon’s own measurements matches yours is good The issue I am bringing to your attention is obvious, you have to review it under the conditions it is designed to be used. You can’t do that with just 2 speakers, OK?

I think you have to do both 2 channel testing as well as MCH. You know how many people that buy that receiver that will use it strictly in 2 channel? 0

Do you know how much value a half baked (you didn’t actually ever use the receiver as a customer would when you reviewed it) provides? 0.

@amir_asr

How did the Denon "perform" when you set it up in your home theater as it was designed to be used? Good luck with that, this is why you keep getting comments about not listening to gear.

You said:

Go and fix the sound of your system.

I started a new thread here on setting up an Atmos system, you would like it, lots of technical detail, feel free to check it out and fix the sound of your system..

@amir_asr

You have this backward. I bring the quality.

I have yet to "see" this quality you are claiming. Where is it? In your wooden room with two speakers? In your mystery home theater? LOL.

We have a video from Dolby Labs that defines what a "quality" room posted in this thread. If you are reviewing atmos receivers this should be table stakes at a minimum. You are a dealer, you got the resources, now get started:

@juanmanuelfangioii , don’t you think our guest from ASR has done a fantastic job confirming the title of this thread, basically proving why specs are pointless.

1) He is reviewing speakers in a room that is barren wood so you know whatever the specs say they won’t sound like that in his room (or any other gear played in that room for that matter).

2) He is reviewing home theater gear without actually using it in a home theater so he can only imagine what "the specs"  sound like in real world conditions, LOL.

3) He can’t/won’t fix any of his problems it so the specs will never help, no matter what they are, so essentially, they won’t matter right?

@amir_asr How can you listen to anything critically? Casually, sure, but critically? This is your system so you explain it, I see two big speakers in a room with flat surfaces everywhere. was this your intent??? Isn't there a lot of flutter echo?

@amir_asr

You didn’t read the article about Toole’s room:

The room was configured in 2000, as a 7.1 system. The front wall was deliberately constructed as a low-mid frequency sound scattering surface using display niches and other depth variations (including spaces behind the fabric covered doors) to alleviate the boundary effect for that wall.

He has a purpose built room and the treatments aren’t displayed. If you look at the diagram his speaker layout follows dolby specs just like mine does (see the other thread I started about building an atmos room, LOL)

Good luck with your "critical listening" over at "dry wall studios". Complete waste of time, but you refuse to be "schooled by Toole" which makes you a ......

@coralkong ​​​​@jerrybj

@amir_asr keeps coming back because he NEEDS to. If you had to listen to 400 or whatever components over at "dry wall studios" wouldn’t you look for an escape? Audiogon Forum rocks, intelligent members, open minded, genial, phenomenal virtual system area, who can blame the guy for trying to escape from that "other" board, where it seems to be just the opposite.

BTW Amir, you do realize the title of this thread is spot on, whatever specs you measure ARE pointless when you stick your gear in a really bad room.

Please come check out the thread I started on an Atmos build, you NEED it.

@amir_asr

"I am sure plenty of people here would throw up on the idea of upmixing stereo music to multichannel/atmos."

Floyd Toole-

"I choose to add moderate up-mixing to most of my stereo music, finding the adjustable Auro-3D implementation in the SDP-75 to be quite pleasant."

The Kota and the Toole are "critically listening" in immersive audio, please enjoy listening however you like over at "dry wall studios".

@melvinjames , there are a lot of threads here besides this one. As a whole I feel the banter in this forum is indeed genial, but 100% genial, no,

@amir_asr 

You have failed to explain why you are championing dry wall. 

In the true spirit of geniality I would like to invite you to find out why immersive audio is so enjoyable, not just for the Kota and the Toole, but for everyone.

@blacktalon , welcome to the forum. I agree that preferences are going to vary and if you don't deal with the room the rest of the specs really won't matter.

The specs that I see that are important in this thread is speaker placement for immersive audio. I have been using the specs for a dolby 9.2.7 setup and then you see Floyd Toole with the same layout using the same specs. We both use matched speakers, bookshelf speakers for front and rear height channels, and we both use center height and VOG speakers. Our rooms are very different obviously but you can see those specs in both setups. Then you take a look at a much bigger room in Abbey Road studios and again, those same specs. Matched speakers, book shelfs as height channels tilted toward the MLP, center heights and VOG channels. The MLP for Toole and Abbey Road is also equidistant from the front and rear speakers like mine is, even though in some Dolby setup diagrams it is toward the rear of the room. Having it equidistant between front and rear channels makes a HUGE difference with the soundstage IMO. See how Abbey Road studios uses the same specs in their immersive setup:

Floyd Toole using the same specs at home:

My room is smaller than either of those, but the specs still fit in a smaller room for the speaker type, the angles and distances:

More immersive audio specs, here is a room even smaller than mine that Wilfred Van Balen also commented on, the mixing stage at Sony Pictures. It uses the same immersive audio specs that the Toole, the Kota and Abbey Road uses. Matching speakers, same angles, use of center height and VOG channel. This is where specs can be useful, if you are setting up your speakers at home using the same specs that the mixing stage uses it helps reproduce the audio as it was meant to be heard

“The Sony Pictures Post Production mix stage adds to the growing footprint of Dolby Atmos enabled post production facilities and gives the Hollywood creative community the tools they need to deliver an immersive experience to consumers, adding additional depth, detail and clarity to the soundtracks,” said Curt Behlmer, Senior Vice President, Content Solutions and Industry Relations, Dolby Laboratories.

“The hope of film buffs and makers alike is an experience that fully transports the audience into the world of the characters,” said Auro Technologies CEO Wilfried Van Baelen. “Having major releases from Sony Pictures Home Entertainment incorporating Auro-3D helps provide this immersive experience, with sound design unlike anything audiences have heard before, to ensure they are able to enjoy films how the creator intended—with full impact.”:

These specs for setting up your room vary slightly between Dolby and Auro 3D. All of the rooms I have posted use a setup that work with both, a "universal" setup.

The Dolby Institute lays out these specs for Speaker Specifications and Placement in the video I posted in my thread on setting up your room for Atmos.

The Dolby specs also include "Room Tuning". Bryan Pennington, Senior Field Applications Engineer at Dolby Institute, discusses the importance of tuning your room. Some general specs he shares is 60/40 to 70/30 is a good rule of thumb to follow when figuring out how much absorptive surfaces to reflective surfaces to use in your room. That includes floor, walls, AND ceilings. Bryan states:

"Money spent on this type of help (room treatments and acoustics) will be more valuable than ANY piece of gear you will ever buy"

That brings us right back to the title of this thread, unless you have the specs of your room setup and tuning right, the specs of any gear you use in that room won’t matter.

Bryan states there are many DIY sources for treating your room. The specs I followed are laid out by Anthony Grimani and then I tailored them for my room with the help of Wilfried Van Baelen. The specs for Anthony’s DIY acoustic treatment recipe is laid out in the diagram below. Bass traps in the corners and then combo panels on the front wall. The side walls alternate with diffusors and absorbers but do NOT mirror each other. You’ll notice if you have a diffusor on the left wall there will be an absorber on the opposite wall. 2D diffusors in the front of the room, 3D diffusors in back. Anthony recommends absorbers in the front half of the ceiling and 3D diffusors on the ceiling in back. Wilfried felt you should include bass traps on the ceiling. I found the Auralex Geofusors a perfect workaround. It is a 3D diffusor that can be back filled with absorption and double as a bass trap. I placed the Geofusors above the MLP. I hung an acoustic cloud of the Auralex Sustain Lens diffusors where you see the 3D ceiling diffusors in the diagram below. The cloud hangs perfectly beneath my PJ. Here is a diagram of Anthony’s specs for room treatment that I used for my room. IMO these are the specs that matter because unless you get them right the specs of your gear don’t matter, just like the title of this thread:

@amir_asr you said:

No, I am a private person and don’t want to walk around bragging about my own system. I only post it out of necessity where a test requires it as it did here:

Almost all reviews include a list of the writers reference system components, the test conditions the equipment was used in, the content played during the review, comparisons to equipment from competitors, and possibly measurements.

No one would consider you listing and posting the above bragging, it is generally required if you check around.

If you need help setting up the proper test conditions in your room check with The Dolby Institute:

@amir_asr

You are the one that decided to brand your website as "science". You admittedly are neither a scientist nor have a "lab"/studio/listening room that follows well established specs (see Toole, Kota1, Abbey Road, Sony, and Dolby Institute in the above posts).

At this point you have two choices. Align yourself with the "science"/specs like the Toole, the Kota, et al. or make a very simple change to your brand acronym.

Currently you are branded ASR

Just change the first letter (A) to the very next letter in the alphabet and I think you’ll nail it.

Good luck with your website and I am taking the good counsel of my fellow members, no more feeding your trolls, bye!