Frustrated with the sound of my system

Guys(figuratively), I really appreciate all the lively discussion. I will have the house to myself for the majority of the week, so I will experiment with speaker placement and listening position. There is a wealth of information from you and you are really making me think hard on solving this. I will keep you posted. Any one care to give me a little info on the "Cardas method".

01-23-12: Newbee
IMHO the OP need to think out side the box by discarding for the moment what won't practically or esthetically work for him ... set his system up in a very near-field set up well away from the boundries to see what his system really sounds like without room boundary reinforcement and reflections.

IMO Newbee's suggestion is excellent and is definitely the place to start. You need to get a handle on what your system really sounds like, while minimizing the presence of reverberant energy that undoubtedly comprises a great deal of what you are hearing, particularly given the listening distance and room dimensions you have described.

I would suggest that when you do this you try a variety of toe-in angles, including no toe-in.

I see that your speakers have been designed to provide essentially ruler-flat frequency response from 45 Hz to 22 kHz, as shown in the graph about 1/3 of the way from the top of this page. That kind of response can be very unforgiving of non-optimal placement, listening position, and room acoustics, and IME can sound hard and excessively bright if not set up optimally.

Regards,
-- Al

Stuartbmw3, I won't cheat you out of the pleasure of finding the Cardas methodology on line, but I would like to say that it is more applicable in concept than any particular specificity. I haven't read it in years but as I recall for box speakers in rectangular rooms it places the speakers about 1/3d of the length of the room away from the wall behind them, 1/3d of the width of the sidewalls away from the side walls. It places the listening chair at the apex of an equilateral triangle.

When I first used it I ended up using 1/5th in place of 1/3d and it worked well. Then I spent a few years fine tuning it! :-)

Another tip. Try toeing in your speakers once you have reset them until the axis of the speakers crosses well in front of your listening chair. Assuming your speakers are hot on axis this not only reduces high end energy, it minimizes 1st reflections off the closest wall and directs them off the opposite wall thus creating a long delay before they finally reach your ears. It has a similar effect with the signal bouncing off the ceiling. You can much more longer delayed signal related to the shorter delayed signal. For different reasons this can also increase the width of the sweet spot for listening.

Just something to play with. Have fun.

I am a novice audiophile, but I would try one thing, it is simple and easy. If you are running all this on standard outlets as is normally wired into a house when built, most electricians will run 8 to 12 outlets on one 15amp breaker and if you are plugging all this into a few of these outlets but also have lamps and other "items" in the house plugged into this circuit also, you could be on the edge of your amp load and so I would run a dedicated 15 or 20 amp service line on a new breaker so that you are running all your equipment on its own circuit so all the juice is dedicated to just your system. Use hospital grade receptacles and you can try isolated ground receptacles as well. Seems to me you have nice enough equipment, could be a simple matter of current starvation? Easy enough to test.
carry on.

Spaz, Newbee, Almarg, We all know about the room and how important it is. We also know about speaker placement. Read the OP's second post. "I know the speaker placement is probably not ideal, but I do have some constraints based on room layout and aesthetics." Something tells me it's not going to happen.

Stuartbmw3'..All the info on the cardas site is great and very useful,but try there method first.I tried it several days ago with my speakers and it didn't work.The calculations for there speaker placement put my speakers 4 ' from the side wall with only 6' between them.I gave it a try and it sounded horrible with my setup.Theres a lot of audiophiles that use this method with great success though.I think it's essential to creat a uniform triangle for you final setup to proper imaging..

Hi Ron (Rrog),

I agree, and I did notice the OP's statement that you quoted. However, it seems to me, and per Newbee's suggestion, that step 1 is to identify as precisely as possible the predominant contributor(s) to the problem. And moving the speakers way out into the room and listening from a closer distance, as an experiment, could very likely facilitate that process.

It seems very conceivable to me that the end result of those experiments could be a conclusion that the particular speakers are simply not suitable for the listening arrangement that has to be used. If so, replacing the speakers might end up being a course of action that would allow the OP to avoid a lot of unnecessary time and expense pursuing the myriad other suggestions that have been offered.

Best regards,
-- Al

My thoughts are the room, and the quality of your power. The room has two identical dimensions, and one that is a multiple. This is very bad news for getting a smooth frequency response. As far as power goes, I'm afraid the only real way to know would be to get a very good power conditioner. Unfortunately, the good ones are expensive. You might want to try to audition (borrow, buy with return privilege, etc) a conditioner to see if this impacts your problem significantly.

Good luck !

Rrog, You may be right, but nothing ventured nothing gained. Someone had to tell him the unvarnished truth. What he does with the information is his business. Telling him to put thin band-aids on a serious wound accomplishes nothing other than getting one's name in print. If he was foolish enough to take much of this advise he would be all the poorer and not more satisfied. Placebo effect not withstanding. IMHO!

I know nothing about the state of his knowledge despite his allusions about what he knows, and assumed nothing about the state of his knowledge, or the level of his interest in actually doing the work necessary to achieve some quality sound and I'll be dammed if I'm going to tell him to buy new equipment, or commercial acoustic materiel, or any tweaks, until I can see a set up where they might actually, audibly, improve something. The only thing I did assume about the OP was that he cared enough about his audio system enough to seek help. Why not try? Didn't cost me anything.

Hi all ! It is very easy to take some large pillows or heavy blankets and put them at the first reflection points, etc...just to see if it helps . Either that or get on the equipment merry-go-round and start spending a bunch of money . When re-reading your OP I see you comment on your system being fatiguing and perhaps strident . Maybe something as simple as those felt rings which go around the tweeters would be another option ?

Replace the Classe 10. I've had a few Classe' amps over the years and found them both muddy in the lower mids and glarey in the upper mids.

Suggest a Forte or similar.

I once had the Rotel 965 and i remember it well for having a hard and fatigueing sound exactly as you describe. You are using a DAC so I am wondering if the transport itself can cause this. I suggest you borrow a different player to start with which will narrow down the cause.

To add to my post, i disagree with much of the advice above and suspect it is one or more of your components and have had a bad experience with the same model Rotel player myself which i used in different systems and even moving to a new house and room. Of course it could be a different cause in your case but i suggest you borrow a Marantz 6004 which i have heard and like, or one of the new Cambridge or NADs (many choices) and bypass the DAC before trying the other suggestions.

THE END!

That Rotel is the first thing that needs replacing. Mine is gathering dust.

Throw the bums out and spend more dough before taking the room out of the equation by a nearfield set-up to see? This cost nothing and should be very telling if it is the room or system synergy and is the FIRST thing that should be done, come on guys why spend money on a hit or miss crapshoot, it doesn't make sense at this point.

I'm not sure I understand the contentious debate between those focussing on placement/treatment issues and those focussing on equipment issues. It seems pretty obvious that neither good equipment set-up poorly, nor bad equipment set-up optimally, is going to shine.

Room placement costs nothing and could be all that the problem is. Buying new gear may or may not solve the problem and would be $$$ down the drain if that is the case.

I know I can make my system sound very detailed and bright but rather clinical and cold... or I can make it sound warm and organic and natural, depending where in the room I place the speakers and listening position. It's such a difference that you wouldn't believe they were the same speakers.

Once you learn to measure the room's response, these differences begin to make sense and you can see what is going on and why.

The best gear in the world would still sound bad if poorly integrated into a room. Learning to get the best sound possible out of the gear you already have will reveal if you do indeed still need new gear... and when you do get new gear... that you will get the best out of it.

As Mike60 tried to say what I did, you people need to re-read the OPs equipment. I as well as others have attested to owning some items in his list and all of us have identified problems with somewhere on that list. Those screaming to treat the room are doing so apparently without understanding the gear. Much of that gear is very old and when it was new, at least I never got the best sound from it, despite my room. I had always been able to hear discernable changes, all for the better, when upgrading and leaving the room completely ALONE.

I again will recommend an amp and cable change as I mentioned above. The Forte from Mike60 is a Nelson Pass design and in the same veign as my recommendation for an older Aleph3 or 30.

Again, as others have said, rooms can make a difference but in my experience have always served as tweaks to refine the sound, not totally change the sound. I too have bass busters and corner busters now sitting in my closet as I found no change in the sound. I actually wonder if the OP is getting any benefit from these posts or if this is more a room vs. gear debate?

If anyone wants to buy my bass busters or corner busters send me a note. There appears to be enough room fanatics on this thread someone must need them.

01-24-12: Turboglo
I'm not sure I understand the contentious debate between those focussing on placement/treatment issues and those focussing on equipment issues. It seems pretty obvious that neither good equipment set-up poorly, nor bad equipment set-up optimally, is going to shine.

This sounds strangely like our government! Throw in some tube vs. ss and some cable arguments, and we might have enough to run some Audiogon elections :^)

Having had the MSB Link III, Kimber 8TC, and Kimber Silver Streak, these components can definitely sound strident and hard. I highly recommend a tube DAC -- MHDT Paradisea is a GREAT choice for offering warm, natural, relaxed sound at < $400 used. MHDT Havana is even better, about $700 used.
If you want to use up more of that $2k budget the Calyx 24/192 DAC is amazing value at $1500 new. Trust me, going from an MSB Link to one of these DACs will make a huge difference.

PNF or MAC are good budget choices for cables that exhibit these qualities as well. Audience AU24 (e) even better at a higher price point. Cardas Cross I didn't care for. JPS may be a little vivid for your system as well, depending on how polite you like your sound.

Your amplification should not be factors in that type of fatiguing sound. Speakers I am not familiar with.

Take all the equipment out of your listening room and bring it all to another room that has proper dimensions and allows for symmetrical placement. Otherwise you are just wasting your time and money. Don't spend a dime until you do this.

I thought I would give you some updates in terms of what I have been trying. Based on your input I moved around the room. The speakers are now centered on a wall, about 3 feet off the back wall and about 9 feet apart. The listening position is stil about 12 feet from the speakers. I had to remove the Kimber speaker wire from the mix. I used a single run of Tara Labs Prism Klara speaker wire (really inexpensive). I also changed the tube in the SFL-1 Sig to a Dutch Amperex SQ 12AT7. It has always been my favorite tube in this preamp...gold pins and pinched waist.

Finally I messed with the sub settings(cross over, volume and polarity) and also unplugged the ports on the speakers. The designer had advised me to plug the ports if mating with a sub.

The sound has imroved and opened up significantly. Not there yet, but a real step in the right direction. I still believe I have two challenges. First the digital front end is quite old and probably outdated, and then secondly the speakers are not a great fit. Prior to these speakers I had a pair of Monitor Audio MA-700 monitors. They were great speakers and I only replaced them because one of the woofers went bad. I still miss those speakers.

Anyway, thanks for all the input and help....very much appreciated.

Good for you! No specific recommendations, however FWIW, I'll pass on a couple of things that helped me find the 'music' in digital, and to find a benchmark set of IC's and speaker cable, i.e. cost vs performances.

A tubed CDP! What a difference this can make! And you can roll tubes 'til you get the tone your want. For the price the Raysonic 128 is great! Great dynamics and warm tone but still retaining clear/clean highs.

I had settled on some Cardas IC's and speaker wire after having Nordost, Kimber, etc. Well out of curiosity, based on recommendations of others on this forum, I needed some long runs so I bought some Canare Quad 4S11 speaker and some Blue Jean IC. Very inexpensive stuff and I had no great expectations. I sub'd out the Cardas stuff. Considering the price I was amazed, but I get a much more neutral and effortless sound with out the excessive brightness or tone control introduced by the more expensive stuff. Who knew........Now I use the Cardas when I want tone adjustments. :-)

If you feel you must replace your speakers, of which I have no knowledge, be sure to consider that the sound of any speaker is the result of its electronic interface with your amp. Some speakers need good SS amps to drive them properly, others love tubes. And if your lucky, speakers with a flat impedance curve of (or close to) 8 ohms has the potential to sound good with either.

Lastly, considering the nulls/nodes you experience (I assume from the room dimensions that they exist, you might like to pick up a SPL meter (Radio Shack) and a test CD with pre-recorded test tones from 20 hz to 20k hz. It will help you find the optimum positions for your listening chair and speakers, at least to the extent that you can avoid the most severe nulls/nodes.

Keep it up................

Another suggestion. Move your listening seat forward in increments of 3-4 inches until the sound locks in. I think you are sitting too far away. Sit as close as you can until you lose the coherence of the drivers, then back up just a little. The closer you can sit, the more you remove the room from the equation. Ideally, I think you should be about 1 ft. closer to the speakers.

Shakey

Although I have a transport, digital transmission interface, and DAC; I hardly ever use them, I'm strictly computer. Let us know if a computer based system will suit you.

In most real world conditions obtaining a world class room is out".Every great sounding system I heard over the past 25 years had this going for them "a decent room"I know in my room over the last 8 years I've tried 4 different amps,5 different speakers,5 preamps,6 cd players,all kinds of wire,all with similar outcomes.yea some sound much better then the other and so on,but it's still ain't right.One of the biggest changes is when I put in treatments.3 days ago I did an experiment .I took out almost all my treatments and tried to listen.My session lasted about 1 hour before I couldn't take it.So I put the treatments back in and it sounded much better.Is it still right, NO..My room stinks..But with treatments and a good room everything else is a lot easier.If anyone disagrees with this you haven't heard a OK system in a great room..

That's a beautiful room and system Spaz. I have a hard time beliving it "stinks".....

Shakey

Ok Spaz I will bite. I have heard a great system in an untreated room. I have heard a great system in a room treated with very little. I have heard very expensive systems in treated rooms that I hated. I threw out 80% of my room treatments and my system was great. Go figure?

It depends on the room..........that you happen to be in and the furniture you have and the speaker placement you have and that is the truth of the matter. I least I think so.

I always go back to a room at Overture audio in Delaware.No matter what system I hear in this room ,it's great.

It seems that you chose all products of the lowest denominator. You need at least one item to push the envelope. If you like Classe, the "15" is a good one to have. Change both speaker cables to 8TC. Search for an SFL-2 and get a better source.

Ok Spaz I will bite. I have heard a great system in an untreated room. I have heard a great system in a room treated with very little. I have heard very expensive systems in treated rooms that I hated. I threw out 80% of my room treatments and my system was great. Go figure?

It depends on the room..........that you happen to be in and the furniture you have and the speaker placement you have and that is the truth of the matter. I least I think so.

Which is 'the room'.

From the pro side, anyone recording music knows that rooms are what its all about. The sound of so many great records was the sound of the room it was recorded in. You cannot divorce the sound of microphone from the room it's in anymore than you can divorce the reverse, a speaker, from the room it's in.

Live sound same thing....the great opera halls and PAC's sound good due to a lot of effort on the room.

No gear in the world can make a bad room sound good. No DSP, no room eq, nothing. You can improve it, from bad to better, but never from bad to great.
Brad

I think good sound obviously combines both equipment selection and appropriate room set up. It cannot be all one thing or the other. Crappy low fi souces, amplification and speakers that sound bad will sound bad no matter what room they are in. That said, the best gear and speakers cannot sound good in an echo chamber of a room.
The op's set up limitations necesitate the best possible arrangement of speakers and room treatments that minmize whatever problems that need to be addressed. I reccomend setting up the speakers according to the best approximation to the Cardas triangle. Then use movable room treatments/sound traps to minimize reflections etc. Then start getting to the matter of buying equipment that satifies the your tastes. That part, like the room optimization, will require trial and error. It is the usual method we seem to use it is reiterative. Buy your equip,ment after hearing it at a store or show, or if need be by reputation and suggestion, see if it suites you. If is sucks sell it. If you have the money you can buy several pieces at once as a system. The same cabling and other tweaks and repeat until done. This may take several years and a lot of money. It took about 7 years in my case. (I have never really totaled the bill. I got side tracked with things like tube collecting.)