What drew me back to this hobby after dabbling in High School, was listening to a friend’s system, in a room over his garage filled with over-stuffed furniture, at least seven different amplifiers and twice that many speakers. What was new to me was a room literally filled with sound, and I couldn’t tell where it was coming from. I climbed over the furniture and put my ear to speaker after speaker, but I was never able to locate the source of the sound. It was a wonderful, awe-filled, experience.
Fast forward to the present. I have now built several systems, in different rooms, with different components. Sometimes I get a ‘sound stage’ where the speakers disappear, sometimes I don’t. I have been told that getting the speakers to disappear is all a matter of placement in the room: “Give me your room dimensions; and I’ll tell you where to place your speakers.” But I can tell you, some speakers disappear, and some speakers announce their presence with every note. I have had odd staging where a particular sound appeared un-naturally at the wrong place (like a cymbal hit at my feet); only to have the issue resolved to a more coherent shape with an upgrade to the analog output stage of the DAC. I have had a decent sound stage cast by a particular pair of speakers, only to have it destroyed with the use of a sub-par power amplifier. I’ve heard reviewers and designers talk about how their component offers sound stage depth as well as width (depth seems to be more difficult to achieve). And then there is the old canard about how tube amps present a ‘halo graphic’ sound stage. I can detail the equipment configurations that have I have put together that succeeded or failed at the goal of presenting a great sound stage, but I’m trying to ask a general question, I am not a bot, and I’m not seeking help with a particular configuration, just help on developing a strategy to tackle the issue of sound stage and imaging of instruments within it.
I will say that the best sounding solutions I have developed thus far both involved a Schiit Yggdrasil (now at ‘Less-is-More) into a SS McIntosh C100 (circa 1992) and either a tube Rogue ‘Stereo 100’ or a SS McIntosh MC252 power amp powering either the Warfedale W70E or B&W 801 Matrix speakers. If I substitute different amps, speakers, preamp, or DAC, the pyramid crumbles and I start hearing two speakers again; I lose my ‘sound stage,’ which is really concerning (to me). Anyone with more than two years into this hobby is qualified to address this question. I need some help, I can’t just keep throwing equipment (and money) at this issue. Any ideas?
Assuming that my understanding is that "soundstage" is the location/positioning of the instruments including vocals and is not the same as "imaging" which would be the projection of the soundscape into the room, soundstage initially comes from the mixing/editing process when the recording is made. Sounds can be panned from side to side or placed in various locations based upon the position the producer/engineer puts it. There is mic placement and there are effects which might be part of the initial recording or added during the mixing process. Having made amateur recordings and producing/engineering my own recordings, that is a basic part of the process.
After that, it is up to the speakers/system/placement to accurately reproduce the soundstage which is set up in the recordings.
@oldrooney, unlike you, I have had much the same components for a long time. This has allowed me to experience a controlled environment. I have tweaked every aspect of the system(s), and with each improvement, the soundstage (among other qualities) has improved dramatically. It’s a turntable-based setup. Every change has been methodological—varying from changing a single resistor to running in new power. The biggest improvements came from upgrading components in the turntable, and rolling in better tubes in the amplifiers. Another major improvement came from using springs under components, including the turntable and speakers. As the clarity, transparency, and speed (attack) of the music improved, so too did the holographic nature of the soundstage.
@bolongLooks like my usage wasn’t so bad after all, thank you for your contribution.
@dz13I agree with your clear and cogent analysis. The issue for me is with reproducing the sound stage in the room. The speakers upstairs work very differently from the speakers downstairs. I’m going to work with the test records and CDs I have on hand and that I expect to arrive soon to get an objective handle on what’s going on in the different rooms with the different speakers.
@noromanceI hope someday to get my system to a point where I can hear the differences between the tweaks you mention. I’m especially concerned to stabilize the system upstairs; I can leave the downstairs system free for experimentation.
@williewonkaWow! That is quite a conversation on Helix Cabling! I’m interested, I’ll have to look into it further. Where would you start in the chain? —Speaker cables, —Power Cables, —Interconnects: source to preamp to amp; or, preamp to amp, then source to preamp?
@oldrooney - I would start with speaker, then interconnect, then power.
Starting with the speaker cables allows you to hear the fine details provided the other cables
For Interconnects, build the source to pre amp first, you should hear a significant improvement. Then build the Pe to main amp IC
For power cables, start with source components, you'll hear significant improvements, and as you proceed to the main amp you will start to hear the fine details of the Vemue acoustics
Ive found the biggest improvement with my source components. Especially my more budget oriented Bluesound Node 2,
My Simaudio Moon L5,3 phono stage revealed significantly more fine details and produces a larger and more detailed image
My main amp is a Bryston B135 integrated amo adn the speakers are Gershman Acoustics Sonogram, which are very detailed and now "invisible"
My room is quite large, but with a low ceiling (7.5 ft), so I have very little in the way of sound treatments, just furniture and broadloom, but the image is stuning
Well the Chesky CD arrived today, it came from the San Francisco Public Library via eBay. In my case, it seems the question, ‘From Whence comes Sound Stage?” is answered “Whither goes the Stereo Image!” That is to say, both of my systems completely failed the very first test, and thus all following tests, with the exception of the Bong and Test Tones. Both rooms have issues on the left side; for different reasons, both rooms have a heavier accumulation of reflective surfaces on the left side, and again, for different reasons, are more open on the right side. The net effect is that the image tracks perfectly as the speaker walks toward the right, even coming in loud and clear beyond the right speaker; but I never hear him speaking from left of center, the entire left half of the test sounds like he is talking just inside the right speaker. There is no a discernible’Up’ or ‘lateral,’ even though I can tell from the VU meters that the signal is coming from the left side, I hear it on the right.
The downstairs system is more resolving (the speakers are a bit more sensitive, and I have a balance control available to me downstairs (actually two ways of balancing left and right), but the balance has no appreciable effect on the stereographic image, to my ears.
I’m not sure where to go from here. Upstairs, I think the acoustics were affected when my son stowed several boxes of CDs & DVDs on the floor behind the couch on the left side of the room. The room could also be about ten ft wider, the sound doesn’t want to travel beyond the left and right speakers. (But then again, they may not have been designed to do so to begin with.)
Downstairs, I can move the storage shelves from the left side of the room and treat window in the door to the right. I can also clear out the boxes and bookshelf at the rear of the room to try and give myself greater than the current 54” between the speaker and my listening position, but the greatest distance I can imagine is about 8 ft from ear to driver if I slam them to the front wall.
Thanks again for recommending a tool that really helped me zero in on the problem.
Edit: @stuartkI tried moving the speakers quite a few times downstairs, but experienced no appreciable difference. When I’m not so disappointed, I’ll give it another try with PS Audio’s CD.
Perhaps they are already dialed in... or you need to play with them, more... ;o)
In my case, I played around with them a lot before the "eureka" moment. In fact, I became rather doubtful along the way that it could actually make much difference. But I kept at it and was rewarded in the end. Sound-stage depth is a wonderful thing!
@stuartkI’ll keep trying, don’t worry. At this point, I’m wondering if the speakers are too big for the room. I certainly enjoy how their sound ‘fills the room,’ but I’m missing how the Warfedale’s (which I still have) radiated a decent sound stage, or at least seemed to do so to me. I’m also wondering about the hearing in my left ear; maybe I need to put my hearing aids in before listening. I’ll update this thread as I (hopefully) make progress. I just wanted to let you know that I am experimenting with speaker placement as part of the effort.
Soundstage is in the mind. Mind models waveforms into 3D model of the world. Duh.
Hearing differences, however big or small, is nothing to do with your system and everything to do with your mind. It only seems you can't hear because you aren't listening. Hearing and listening are conflated. Get them straight and the differences go away. Learn to listen and you will hear.
Be certain all the drivers in your left channel's speaker system are functional.
If possible: undo any changes made in the room, since the last, full (L/R) soundstage you recall.
Try to get your listening area as symmetric as possible, as regards reflections.
In my case (small/crappy listening room, after divorce): I'm able to place the system/speakers ALMOST equidistant from the side walls, bipolar drivers (mains) 2' from the front wall, with diffusers behind, where their greatest radiation concentration will be focused.
Behind listening position: 2" Sonex, from 3' off the floor, to the ceiling (completely eliminated the room's Slap Echo) and LENRDs, same height, in the corners.
My listening position is 1/3 into the room, away from the back wall and what would have to be considered Near Field (at the apex of an equilateral, 8' sided, triangle).
Having used planars (Acoustats and Magnepans) for so may decades; I'm used to not having to deal with the wide dispersion, of the typical box speaker and find the output of my Emerald Physics (still very narrowly beamy), easy to predict, with any reflected speaker back waves, directed behind my head/ears, toward the Sonex.
My seat has a nothing but soft material, round corners and a high back, so:
I hear virtually nothing from the back of the room.
Though Sabine effects are unavoidable: they're minimized and I use DSP (via TacT RCS 2.2X), to mitigate what's left, beside time-aligning my woofer systems, which now are forced to reside (the small, crappy room, again) behind the mains.
Played back at any levels approaching those originally recorded; the listening room disappears.
Closing my eyes takes me to the original performance and venue, with a good recording.
For the naysayers: YES, I DO have a number of my own recordings, not to mention: a number, made in (otherwise) very familiar venues.
@edisoncarter I will grant you two points: (1) You are correct insofar as locus of the stereographic image, but (and it’s a big but), the head needs the proper input in order to create the image. As the research discovered that went into the LEDR (Listening Environment Diagnostic Recording), even the shape of the earlobes affect how individuals hear the same sound. By your logic, we could get a stereographic sound image from a single speaker could create a sound stage on its own if we properly listen to it. Monaural recordings can certainly fill a room, and the speaker may even disappear, but the image is definitely not stereographic. (2) You are also correct that I need to learn how to listen better. I am not a professional sound engineer in any capacity, nor do I aspire to become one; but I do expect, perhaps too optimistically, to hear instruments imaged individually in a sound stage. I don’t think such a soundscape is entirely in my head, but, as you say, I probably won’t realize it without some training of my listening skills. Thanks for the response.
@rodman99999I had to generate three searches on Google to begin to understand your latest post. I appreciate your references to affordable acoustic panels and bass traps. I have more flexibility to create and modify the space downstairs. My first step may be to hook the Warfedales again for a reference check. The room is square, has five doors, and is (now) only half full of disassembled furniture, cardboard boxes, two bookcases, etc. etc. Again, I’m less than 6’ away from the main drivers which are 32” from the front wall behind them. I’m just going to have to play with their placement for a while.
Upstairs, window on the left side, 6’ opening into the dining room on the right, stairwell behind left half of room; hallway back to the bedrooms along right wall, with a 36” wide closet wall 36” just to the right behind the listening position. I may need professional help, with the acoustics, that is.
In truth, I have avoided dealing with acoustics until I acquired enough quality gear that the sound reproduction was adequate. It is now time to sort it out, as it has become obvious to me that I cannot progress in this hobby until I address the issue.
Again, I deeply appreciate your contributions, you are directly addressing the issues I’m having.
There are less expensive options available than genuine Sonex, or Auralex (LENRDs), on eBay*.
I can only assume: they'd be as efficacious, as the real thing.
Can't REALLY see why not!
The 2" depth Sonex did a good job at addressing the frequencies needed, in my current room. Some experimenting may be required, with your room and variables, but: I wouldn't go any thinner.
If the basement room is actually a square (all sides even, or can be evenly divided into one another): it may be worse than what you have now.
If your system used to reproduce an actual/accurate soundstage and proper imaging; you should be able to get it back, if not better, now that you've got the references/tests.
@rodman99999Thanks for the tips, especially Paul McGowan’s video: I’ve got the bookcases, I just need to be more intentional in how I’m arranging them in the room.
Moving my head a few inches to the left certainly helps me on the upstairs system. I moved the boxes off the left wall and stood up to make sure my ears were centered between the two speakers: Wow, what a difference! I passed the first test on the CD —the Stereographic Imaging Test; the left side was back in the frame! I still have issues with the LEDR tests, I can tell the image is shifting, but I find it difficult to tell how far it is shifting, and sometimes in what direction. The depth test went well, though. I suspect the XRT tweeter columns are defeating the vertical placement of the tones. I will have to rearrange the furniture 🪑 (again) to get my head in the right place upstairs. I think I’ll wait on the downstairs system until it is permanently installed (in another room).
I would never have thought that 3” in head placement would cause the entire left half of the sound stage to ‘drop off a cliff,’ as it were.
Many thanks to everyone who helped me sort out this rather elemental issue.
David Fabrikant is the owner of Ascend Acoustics. He has many,many years of speaker design and development.
He was asked what are the 10 most important parts or aspects of an audio system.
He responded.” 1 thru 8 the speakers, number 9 the room, number 10 everything else.”
I am a firm believer in this. Quality speakers, speaker placement and room acoustics have always returned better sound for me then cables, isolaters,power cords,etc then anything else under the stars. Followed up with decent equipment.
@medialies I agree with you and David. Nevertheless, getting it all sorted out is proving to be a challenge. Also, while quality speakers are definitely a priority, there is more than one way to design a speaker, and each type of design has its own quality as well. So we can talk about quality speakers as well as speaker qualities.
In my case, sometimes I feel like a monitor; sometimes I don’t. As much as I like my B&W 801 Series 2, after about two hours, I’m ready for something else. With my McIntosh XRT20s, I love their lush sound, but when I send the same source to my new Sony AN1000 Home Theater AV Receiver output through some really inexpensive Left, Right, Center, and Sub—wow— so much more clarity and depth of field, texture, and volume. I’m really scratching my head now.
At least two factors come to mind. When I was an arrogant youth, I thought I knew everything and was loath to question myself; now that I am older, I realize (after making a few) that I can make mistakes (although, again, I am loathe to admit it). Second, my ears aren’t what they used to be. A third factor may be lack of focus. When I was young, I was clear about what I wanted— I wanted to play rock music louder! Now that I am older and listened to, and enjoyed, many types of music, I want to hear the fingers on the strings of a folk guitar, the gentle decay of a clear piano note, the depth of a double bass and the shimmer of a high-hat cymbal— not all on the same recording but on the same system: my system.
Good point, alanhuth. I wish I had a dollar in my pocket for every post that I couldn't understand: poor grammar, spelling, failure to define terms, etc. And then there are those general questions (or situations) that make no sense at all, to me.
I know these problems are probably unique to me. A solution is not to read the responses, or, read them to see how the "confusion" spirals further out of control. Sometimes they even beat tv news interviews.
@alanhuthand @sgordon1you need to look above to @simaoand @bolong who covered this issue quite well. @simaoraised the question @bolongresponded in support of my usage citing a passage from Shakespeare as follows: “The plants look up to heaven, from whence they have their
nourishment.”
~ William Shakespeare
@bolongshould probably have given a citation in the classical mode (I.e. chapter and line#), but his point is well taken (by me, at least). 🙂
@bolongThank you for the full citation and context of Helicanus pleading for his life while confessing his fault before Pericles, Prince of Tyre, “for I have ground the axe.” I learned even more from you.
Like the poster about 4 channels giving best soundstage, this is cheating too. So Im using my Carver c4000 from 1980. It has Bob Carvers "magical" function of Sonic Holography. Ive heard sounds from far left and right of speakers that are scarey, phantom like. Yes, its mainly about the recording itself for the most part. Allen Parson's I robot presents a wall of sound for example.
Ive had low fi Kilpish towers and now run Magnepan 1.7i s. In someways the Klipish towers did better for soundstage, but horns were fatigueing. 1.7is sound much better in toneality and detail, but I kind of think their large physical presences make them hard to "disappear".
@bolongI hadn’t considered horn speakers for their ability to cast a sound stage, I do believe they would project the sound forward rather than make it appear the sound was coming from behind the speaker. I have heard several testimonies to the horned speaker being able to absolutely transport the listener.
@bikefi10 You are two steps ahead of me. As above, I’ve never heard horns in my system (step one); neither have I heard electrostatics or planar speakers (step two). I’m more interested in the latter, and seriously considering purchasing a complete system from Sound by Sanders but I’ll either need to save a lot of pennies, close out my 401K (no, wait, I’ve already done that) . . . guess I’ll have to start buying lottery tickets. :-)
I don't know about Sound by Sanders, but if you don't mind used, I picked up my Magnepan 1.7i s for $1,300. They were only 1 year old and just broken in. Planars have a long breakin period.
As per my previous post, seems like horns and planars are two different worlds. Direct projection vs. "omni" directional, but the 1.7i s definately sound better for jazz, female vocal, inde type music. Horns/ cones seem to do better for rock in my experience. I also use a Rythmik direct servo sub cuting in at 80hz to give a bit more umph in the low end.
@bikefi10I certainly don’t mind used. Out of the over thirty pieces of equipment and sets of speakers I’ve purchased in the last three years, only nine have been new, and three of those were gifts.
@rodman99999and others, this whole question (whence soundstage?) arose for me experiencing the different speaker technology of the McIntosh imposing XRT20 speakers in a new space (upstairs) and comparing it with the B&W 891 Matrix speakers in my listening room downstairs, where I thought I knew why the sound was always centered pretty much just to the left of my right speaker emanating from the wall’s junction with the ceiling. While switching some of the bi-amplifiers downstairs off and on I discovered that I had lost the left side of my tube amp. The tube amp was driving the upper frequencies of the B&W 801s. Turned out one of the KT120s had lost its vacuum and taken out the fuse of its partner. Now that everything is back together, the soundstage center is back in the center of the room, and the instruments are right at head level if I sit up straight (I tend to slouch). Sounds GREAT!
@rodman99999Thank you for not saying, ‘I told you so.’ Sometimes when I’m troubleshooting, I get into what one tech termed, ‘high-speed stall.’ My brain gets flooded with possibilities, and I have to sit down and ‘have a think,’ in order to apply logic to the situation. But when it’s your own stuff, it is easy for anxiety or frustration to overcome one’s senses.
For instance, when I found the channel dead, my first thought was a loose terminal, then shorted, then mis-wired (to wrong speaker), then it dawned on me, the AMP is dead! Didn’t take long after that.
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