From whence does Sound Stage come?

I might also add that I have limited test equipment available: a frequency generator and analog oscilloscope, the DATS V3 Audio Test System for component testing, and a miniDSP UMIK-1 microphone, boom mike holder, and the free-to-download Room Equalization Wizard (REW) software package which I’m currently learning to use. 

@rodman99999 Thanks for the tips, especially Paul McGowan’s video: I’ve got the bookcases, I just need to be more intentional in how I’m arranging them in the room. 

@rodman99999 Thank you very much for the links to the AudioCheck site and the Chesky CD. I shall follow up on them. I started with the ‘More’ articles, first I’ve heard of LEDR phenomenon and testing method. I noticed in my reading of the article in Stereophile that two items negatively affecting sound staging can be found in my system: bi-amping (phasing) and B&W 801 speakers (vertical dispersion)
I should add, for the benefit of you and other readers, that the sound staging of my system became an issue since I have started bi-amping my speakers, particularly the B&W 801 Matrix speakers, their vertical dispersion quality doesn’t bother me as much, but it does explain why the voices are coming from the top of the wall where it joins the ceiling.
My two current systems are described in detail in my virtual systems, although I haven’t yet found a way to navigate to either my ‘Temporary System’ or my ‘New System’ except through my own Profile page.
In brief, the Temporary system (downstairs) from Room/speaker to source: 11x11x7.5 w/4 doors (the junk room, that still has a lot of ‘junk’ in it), B&W 801 Matrix, (2) RadioShack 250 Watt PA amps bridged to mono capable of delivering 350 Watts at 1kHz into each speaker over Channel A, (future plans call for hooking the Warfedale W70E’s up to Channel B), McIntosh C100, Schiit Yggdrasil LIM, Madrigal Proceed CD player (the Toaster). The New System (upstairs)15x19x7.5 (with the rear 7’ over the staircase in a split-level house), McIntosh XRT20 Isoplanar Loudspeaker System with tweeter columns are mounted on wall at the recommended 1/3’s (5’ from each wall and 5’ from each other, credenzas are two inches or less from the front wall and 8-9” outside the tweeter columns, again, as recommended by the manufacturer, (2) McIntosh MC252 power amps, each bridged at 4 Ohms to deliver a maximum of 500 Watts to each speaker whose impedance has been verified at 8 Ohms or better (not falling below 5 at 10 kHz), McIntosh MQ107 Room EQ set flat with a boost in the lower frequency of ‘2’, Schiit Freya+ using single-ended outputs to take advantage of the MQ107, (1) Oppo BDP-105D balanced line into Freya, with optical input from Samsung UHD TV, and SPDIF output (both optical and Coax [the last is not strictly necessary]) to Onkyo 1513 AVR to a pair of Realistic ported 10” two-ways, an RCA center channel, and Velodyne miniVee subwoofer, (2) Elac PPA-2 using balanced line into Freya, Music Hall MMF 5.3 belt drive with Sumiko Songbird high output moving coil cartridge. (I guess that wasn’t so brief.)

Anyway, as you can tell, I’m experimenting to see if ‘more power’ will improve matters (ala Scotty to Kirk, or Tim “ The Toolman” Taylor). I have been rather stymied by the 87 bB efficiency of the McIntosh XRT20’s, but that is a topic for a different thread. Turntable has never sounded better.

Edit: Downstairs I stream through an original Auralic Aries with their linear power supply; upstairs I’m listening to Pandora through the Oppo player/DAC. I have yet to sign up for a service, but I have a renderer and My Cloud NAS with CD attached whenever I figure out how best to create a library. 

@rodman99999 After thinking 💭 over your response and pondering the content you referenced, the answer to the original question, ‘From whence comes Sound Stage?’ The answer might well be, ‘from inside your head’ (not yours of course, but mine, or any listener). In other words, it is a psychoacoustic phenomenon that system configuration, component selection, and room treatment can either enhance or destroy, and that is different for every individual. Amazing, when you think of it. It is possible for me to tune my system and room to near perfection, yet you might miss most of what I enjoy; and I likewise for your system. May be the reason I’m drawn to this hobby. 

@edisoncarter Point taken. My friend in whose house I first heard a decent sound stage tells me I need to use better sources. Thanks for the response. 

@vonhelmholtz and ​​​​@knotscott Thank you both for your insight and encouragement. I’m just starting to dial my rooms in. I was a bit despondent after putting out the effort to maximize the power available to each speaker. I’m not sure what I was expecting, but it was in the nature of an improvement. :-)

I am resolved to continue the journey and try to leave a trail of breadcrumbs so that I can find my way back, if a change doesn’t properly appease the audio gods. 

@mahgister I agree, acoustics are key.

@erik_squires From what I’ve learned recently, diffusion in a room can be isolated by correctly interpreting graphical representations of the frequency response as modern software can cast it. I think it’s the impulse decay that is analyzed, with time on the horizontal X-axis and amplitude on the vertical Y-axis. When a spike is recorded on the vertical axis, the elapsed time from the microphone is computed so that by knowing the speed sound travels, and the time taken to make the trip from speaker to reflection point to microphone, the distance can be calculated and compared to room layout. Break out your 8th grade compass and draw an arc to encounter reflective surfaces diffusing the sound. I’m sure I’ve got a few, and recent furniture introduction and rearrangement is sure to have affected the room’s response to the speakers. 
Thanks for the response. 

@perkri My experience exactly, like, what happened?

@falconquest (and others): You are correct, absolutely, without a recording of the space, there is no sound stage to reproduce, which directly answers my question, “Whence cometh Sound Stage?” The issue for me is my ability to reproduce a reasonable reproduction of it in my space. It didn’t drop out all-of-sudden, but after several weeks of reconfiguring components in new spaces occasioned by a recent speaker purchase, I ‘woke up’ to the fact that my imaging was diminished and I wasn’t ‘feeling’ the sense of instruments in the room on a stage, as it were. It may be that I’m missing my Schiit Yggdrasil DAC in my upstairs system. I’ve got two DACs between the BlueRay player and the AVR but none of them can hold a candle to the Yggy; I tried a Modius, but it wasn’t much better than the DAC in the AVR, the BlueRay is pretty good, but not the equal of the Yggy, to my ears. Thanks for the response, you and everyone else who emphasized the importance of the recording itself, in whatever format, resolution, or media it was recorded on. With all the recent gear changes, I was beginning to lose sight of the forest for the trees, thank you for the corrective. It’s all about the music, right?

@simao You are correct, of course, and I debated with myself whether to include it or not; I decided to leave it in for readers unfamiliar with the usage of ‘whence’ (it’s not often used in English, but I think more commonly found in German and other languages). Thank you for noticing.

Edit: Given the circumstances which lead up to my post, I probably should have written: “Whither went my Sound Stage?” 
@rodman99999 Thank you again for chiming in. When you consider how much testing —and knowledge— is required to properly tune a system and treat a room, the LEDR method offers real promise. As you say, it uses our ears as the test equipment using the science written into the software. Brilliant! The basic fact of test equipment is that they don’t measure like humans hear, so interpreting the test data becomes a monumental task for the uninitiated. If you keep posting links to authorities on this subject, I’m going to have to extend my library shelf, I write in jest. Keep them coming, I’m ordering the Chesky CD tomorrow

@frankmc195 When I hear my speakers these days, I wonder what’s wrong, hence this post. 
 

@campoly I’m after (and have had) the experience you describe. Even though I have applied more power recently, I’m missing the sparkle in my system. Thanks for the response. 
 

@firstonetallguy You’re welcome. :-)

@erik_squires You are correct, I didn’t understand what you meant by the term ‘diffusion’ and confused it with reflective surfaces in the sound path which are treated with absorption; thank you for the full description of what diffusion is, why it helps, and how it can be created. 
 

@stuartk I haven’t played with it much; downstairs the system is in a ‘temporary’ location and I don’t want to invest too much time on them, but they are on casters. If I can clear the floor space, I will experiment. I have PS Audio’s test CD for the purpose. Upstairs, the tweeter towers are screwed to the walls, I may be able to tweak the bass cabinets a bit, I’ll try it, they aren’t that heavy, but I can’t move them far as they’re tethered to the tweeter columns, but I can try different things, that’s why I bought the test equipment. 
 

@simao I’ll try to find those threads, sounds like they would be worth a listen. 
 

@othercrazycanuck I like your distinction. Using your terms, I want more ambience in my system for every recording so that when one comes along that has some staging, I get the full effect. I fear that may be a challenge for the system upstairs (with speakers against the wall), although I really like the quality of the sound I get from the McIntosh speakers. The system downstairs, with the B&W 801 speakers offers greater opportunity for tuning, the speakers seem to be much clearer and have much better imaging. Thanks for your response. 

@rodman99999 CD is on the way for under $20 (used). I’m sure I’ll enjoy using it to dial my system in. 
 

@simao Madonna? Really! She wanted to be the best, I suppose, some her antics on stage distracted/attracted me to the point I wasn’t listening to the music. 

@mahler123 Your response about feeling like a kid in the garage made me chuckle. I have considered DSP processing of the signal, and it is available to me on the upstairs system (the one with the McIntosh XRT speakers). My experiences with multichannel sound has been mixed with two exceptions: (1) Center Speaker, and (2) subwoofer(s). Until the recent acquisition and installation of the XRT speaker system, I hadn’t listened to music except for a local classical music station favored by a frequent visitor and occasional CD playing in the background. The use of the upstairs is likely to remain ‘entertainment’ as opposed to serious listening. 
 

However, you do bring up an important point about a multichannel system’s ability to recreate a listening space via digital processing of the signal. Whereas a traditional stereo recording care must be taken to include spatial information (the venue); then Yahaha comes out and says, ‘flip this switch and your recording will sound like it was recorded in Carnegie Hall through the magic of DSP.’  But I gotta say, after spending 20 years waiting for television shows to fully implement 5.1 or 7.1 I’m still waiting. Maybe I’m just not watching the right shows.
 

But I digress. I currently use my AV Receiver with Front Left & Right and Center plus a Subwoofer. Speakers were chosen for treble clarity, and work well to bring me clear dialog to accompany the sub-titles. I have considered putting side and rear surrounds in the ceiling, but I have been advised against it. And based on my previous experience, I’m no sure it would be worth the trouble: re-arrange the room, move the primary listening position, and then what?

Anyway, thanks for responding, I’m not saying, ‘never,’ but I am saying, ‘not now.’

@asctim I think you and I are on the same page. I have stated above that there must be a strong psycho-acoustic element to all this to even have a stereo image to begin with. The LEDR test signals rodman9995 shared takes it a step further to evaluate how the shape of our ears👂 , or pinnae, contribute to our perception of sound.
Two of my sons have visited recently (successive weekends) and listened to both systems, and then given me their evaluations. The discussion, in both cases, centered around the quantity and quality of the bass. I’ve attempted to explain the differences based on differences on the technology: the B&W 801s downstairs are a front-ported bass-reflex design; the McIntosh XRT20s upstairs have sealed cabinets. One son described the downstairs system as being much more ‘plugged in’ whereas the upstairs system was much more laidback. He said he preferred the 801s. The other son preferred the XRTs and contrasted the ‘studio sound’ from the 801s to the ‘made for the home’ sound of the XRTs upstairs.

I’ve been mainly focused on acquiring a decent amount of quality gear for the first two years, and while I continue to evaluate alternative options for gear, I’m turning my attention to room acoustics now. (Note: My takeaway from two years of virtually nonstop gear purchases is that solid, better quality speakers cover a multitude of equipment “sins.”) I’m also exploring access to better sources for my serious listening sessions, I plan to learn how to use the inexpensive microphone and free software to get a handle on how my room is ‘performing.’ In the process, I’m hoping, that while my hearing will not improve, I can become a better listener. :-)

@bdp24 Thanks for the link. I enjoyed the interview and I agree with Paul about the importance of decent speakers, I wasn’t really hearing a Sound Stage until I acquired the B&W 801s, and I can understand Harry Pearson’s obsession with it; once you hear it, you’ve got to have it. Although I have Paul’s ‘Audiophile’s Guide’ CD and book, and I heard he had done one on ‘Speakers’ I wasn’t aware of the ‘Art of HiFi’ series. Since I now own a decent SACD player, I may secure copies of his ‘Bass’ and ‘Sound Stage’ recordings. Again, thanks for the link.

@mahler123 I wish I could hear your system. I’m sure multichannel recordings must sound wonderful, and I acknowledge that DSP alone can’t render it. The fact that I can’t really move the XRTs around upstairs means that I may be forced to implement some sort of ‘surround’ system. I don’t need height for the front (tweeters go from floor to ceiling), but I’m thinking that rear surrounds over the staircase, behind the listening position would be worth the effort, particularly if it could be implemented with Bluetooth speakers. But even then, simply mounting the speakers over the stairs becomes an issue. I’ve already invested so much time and energy insulating the attic space and installing flooring in its cramped quarters, that the thought of spending any more time up there makes me cringe. But as you say, it might be worth it —next year. First, I feel the need to understand what is going on in my room, optimize the lower frequencies, and properly place my speakers. For me, that is ‘next level,’ multichannel surround sound is a level beyond ‘next’ for me. Given your testimony, I will give it my best consideration going forward, especially for the upstairs space and gear. Thank you for your contribution.

@williewonka ​​​​@rodman99999 

I plan to consider upgrades to my cables once I can settle on a system configuration that pleases me. For the moment, I make my own out of Mogami 2534 (2 twisted pair) bulk and Nuetrix (or Switchcraft). I have made up my mind to go with mono block amplification, if for no other reason than the short speaker cables. 🙂

@bolong Looks like my usage wasn’t so bad after all, thank you for your contribution.

@dz13 I agree with your clear and cogent analysis. The issue for me is with reproducing the sound stage in the room. The speakers upstairs work very differently from the speakers downstairs. I’m going to work with the test records and CDs I have on hand and that I expect to arrive soon to get an objective handle on what’s going on in the different rooms with the different speakers.

@noromance I hope someday to get my system to a point where I can hear the differences between the tweaks you mention. I’m especially concerned to stabilize the system upstairs; I can leave the downstairs system free for experimentation. 

@williewonka Wow! That is quite a conversation on Helix Cabling! I’m interested, I’ll have to look into it further. Where would you start in the chain? —Speaker cables, —Power Cables, —Interconnects: source to preamp to amp; or, preamp to amp, then source to preamp?

@rodman99999

Well the Chesky CD arrived today, it came from the San Francisco Public Library via eBay. In my case, it seems the question, ‘From Whence comes Sound Stage?” is answered “Whither goes the Stereo Image!” That is to say, both of my systems completely failed the very first test, and thus all following tests, with the exception of the Bong and Test Tones. Both rooms have issues on the left side; for different reasons, both rooms have a heavier accumulation of reflective surfaces on the left side, and again, for different reasons, are more open on the right side. The net effect is that the image tracks perfectly as the speaker walks toward the right, even coming in loud and clear beyond the right speaker; but I never hear him speaking from left of center, the entire left half of the test sounds like he is talking just inside the right speaker. There is no a discernible’Up’ or ‘lateral,’ even though I can tell from the VU meters that the signal is coming from the left side, I hear it on the right.

The downstairs system is more resolving (the speakers are a bit more sensitive, and I have a balance control available to me downstairs (actually two ways of balancing left and right), but the balance has no appreciable effect on the stereographic image, to my ears.

I’m not sure where to go from here. Upstairs, I think the acoustics were affected when my son stowed several boxes of CDs & DVDs on the floor behind the couch on the left side of the room. The room could also be about ten ft wider, the sound doesn’t want to travel beyond the left and right speakers. (But then again, they may not have been designed to do so to begin with.)

Downstairs, I can move the storage shelves from the left side of the room and treat window in the door to the right. I can also clear out the boxes and bookshelf at the rear of the room to try and give myself greater than the current 54” between the speaker and my listening position, but the greatest distance I can imagine is about 8 ft from ear to driver if I slam them to the front wall.

Thanks again for recommending a tool that really helped me zero in on the problem.

Edit: @stuartk I tried moving the speakers quite a few times downstairs, but experienced no appreciable difference. When I’m not so disappointed, I’ll give it another try with PS Audio’s CD. 

@stuartk I’ll keep trying, don’t worry. At this point, I’m wondering if the speakers are too big for the room. I certainly enjoy how their sound ‘fills the room,’ but I’m missing how the Warfedale’s (which I still have) radiated a decent sound stage, or at least seemed to do so to me. I’m also wondering about the hearing in my left ear; maybe I need to put my hearing aids in before listening. I’ll update this thread as I (hopefully) make progress. I just wanted to let you know that I am experimenting with speaker placement as part of the effort. 

@edisoncarter  I will grant you two points: (1) You are correct insofar as locus of the stereographic image, but (and it’s a big but), the head needs the proper input in order to create the image. As the research discovered that went into the LEDR (Listening Environment Diagnostic Recording), even the shape of the earlobes affect how individuals hear the same sound. By your logic, we could get a stereographic sound image from a single speaker could create a sound stage on its own if we properly listen to it. Monaural recordings can certainly fill a room, and the speaker may even disappear, but the image is definitely not stereographic. (2) You are also correct that I need to learn how to listen better. I am not a professional sound engineer in any capacity, nor do I aspire to become one; but I do expect, perhaps too optimistically, to hear instruments imaged individually in a sound stage. I don’t think such a soundscape is entirely in my head, but, as you say, I probably won’t realize it without some training of my listening skills. Thanks for the response. 

@rodman99999 I had to generate three searches on Google to begin to understand your latest post. I appreciate your references to affordable acoustic panels and bass traps. I have more flexibility to create and modify the space downstairs. My first step may be to hook the Warfedales again for a reference check. The room is square, has five doors, and is (now) only half full of disassembled furniture, cardboard boxes, two bookcases, etc. etc. Again, I’m less than 6’ away from the main drivers which are 32” from the front wall behind them. I’m just going to have to play with their placement for a while.

Upstairs, window on the left side, 6’ opening into the dining room on the right, stairwell behind left half of room; hallway back to the bedrooms along right wall, with a 36” wide closet wall 36” just to the right behind the listening position. I may need professional help, with the acoustics, that is.

In truth, I have avoided dealing with acoustics until I acquired enough quality gear that the sound reproduction was adequate. It is now time to sort it out, as it has become obvious to me that I cannot progress in this hobby until I address the issue.

Again, I deeply appreciate your contributions, you are directly addressing the issues I’m having. 

@stuartk @rodman99999 @edisoncarter

Moving my head a few inches to the left certainly helps me on the upstairs system. I moved the boxes off the left wall and stood up to make sure my ears were centered between the two speakers: Wow, what a difference! I passed the first test on the CD —the Stereographic Imaging Test; the left side was back in the frame! I still have issues with the LEDR tests, I can tell the image is shifting, but I find it difficult to tell how far it is shifting, and sometimes in what direction. The depth test went well, though. I suspect the XRT tweeter columns are defeating the vertical placement of the tones. I will have to rearrange the furniture 🪑 (again) to get my head in the right place upstairs. I think I’ll wait on the downstairs system until it is permanently installed (in another room).

I would never have thought that 3” in head placement would cause the entire left half of the sound stage to ‘drop off a cliff,’ as it were.

Many thanks to everyone who helped me sort out this rather elemental issue. 

@bolong Thank you for the full citation and context of Helicanus pleading for his life while confessing his fault before Pericles, Prince of Tyre, “for I have ground the axe.” I learned even more from you. 

@medialies  I agree with you and David. Nevertheless, getting it all sorted out is proving to be a challenge. Also, while quality speakers are definitely a priority, there is more than one way to design a speaker, and each type of design has its own quality as well. So we can talk about quality speakers as well as speaker qualities. 

In my case, sometimes I feel like a monitor; sometimes I don’t. As much as I like my B&W 801 Series 2, after about two hours, I’m ready for something else. With my McIntosh XRT20s, I love their lush sound, but when I send the same source to my new Sony AN1000 Home Theater AV Receiver output through some really inexpensive Left, Right, Center, and Sub—wow— so much more clarity and depth of field, texture, and volume. I’m really scratching my head now. 

At least two factors come to mind. When I was an arrogant youth, I thought I knew everything and was loath to question myself; now that I am older, I realize (after making a few) that I can make mistakes (although, again, I am loathe to admit it). Second, my ears aren’t what they used to be. A third factor may be lack of focus. When I was young, I was clear about what I wanted— I wanted to play rock music louder! Now that I am older and listened to, and enjoyed, many types of music, I want to hear the fingers on the strings of a folk guitar, the gentle decay of a clear piano note, the depth of a double bass  and the shimmer of a high-hat cymbal— not all on the same recording but on the same system: my system.

@alanhuth and @sgordon1 you need to look above to @simao and @bolong who covered this issue quite well. @simao raised the question @bolong responded in support of my usage citing a passage from Shakespeare as follows: “The plants look up to heaven, from whence they have their
nourishment.”
~ William Shakespeare

@bolong should probably have given a citation in the classical mode (I.e. chapter and line#), but his point is well taken (by me, at least). 🙂

@bolong I hadn’t considered horn speakers for their ability to cast a sound stage, I do believe they would project the sound forward rather than make it appear the sound was coming from behind the speaker. I have heard several testimonies to the horned speaker being able to absolutely transport the listener.

@bikefi10 You are two steps ahead of me. As above, I’ve never heard horns in my system (step one); neither have I heard electrostatics or planar speakers (step two). I’m more interested in the latter, and seriously considering purchasing a complete system from Sound by Sanders but I’ll either need to save a lot of pennies, close out my 401K (no, wait, I’ve already done that) . . . guess I’ll have to start buying lottery tickets. :-)

@rodman99999 Thank you for not saying, ‘I told you so.’ Sometimes when I’m troubleshooting, I get into what one tech termed, ‘high-speed stall.’ My brain gets flooded with possibilities, and I have to sit down and ‘have a think,’ in order to apply logic to the situation. But when it’s your own stuff, it is easy for anxiety or frustration to overcome one’s senses.
For instance, when I found the channel dead, my first thought was a loose terminal, then shorted, then mis-wired (to wrong speaker), then it dawned on me, the AMP is dead! Didn’t take long after that.

@bikefi10 I certainly don’t mind used. Out of the over thirty pieces of equipment and sets of speakers I’ve purchased in the last three years, only nine have been new, and three of those were gifts.

@rodman99999 and others, this whole question (whence soundstage?) arose for me experiencing the different speaker technology of the McIntosh imposing XRT20 speakers in a new space (upstairs) and comparing it with the B&W 891 Matrix speakers in my listening room downstairs, where I thought I knew why the sound was always centered pretty much just to the left of my right speaker emanating from the wall’s junction with the ceiling. While switching some of the bi-amplifiers downstairs off and on I discovered that I had lost the left side of my tube amp. The tube amp was driving the upper frequencies of the B&W 801s. Turned out one of the KT120s had lost its vacuum and taken out the fuse of its partner. Now that everything is back together, the soundstage center is back in the center of the room, and the instruments are right at head level if I sit up straight (I tend to slouch). Sounds GREAT!

@rodman99999 🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂

Thanks for the link. It would be nice if there were a rotary knob so that we could literally ‘dial down’ our brain’s activity sometimes.