Financial Limits of Tube and Op Amp Rolling

@mcraghead and you'd be right but apparently having a sensible approach to audio is lost on many forums. And we just must not resist the useless "upgrades" and just spend to spend. Cos spending releases endorphins for a month and we'd be back to look for what to spend on again to get our fix.

It's an abyss where if you call out the absurdity, you're branded a heretic. I'd rather be a heretic than be involved in this pseudo religion of every "upgrade" apparently "opening up the soundstage" and adding "more detail."

What is this? The expansion of the universe?

It's kind of in the same ballpark as spending $500 for a linear power supply to "upgrade" your $800 streamer. I think the money might be better spent if you bought a $1300 streamer in the first place. Just saying...YMMV.

or spending that $500 for a linear power supply on a $300 DAC and then complaining and being all upset that you don't hear a difference... never considering that the weak spot wasn't the power supply, but the rest of the $300 DAC.  (Or that you are streaming mp3's from Spotify in the first place.)

Logical thinking and stating the obvious to the oblivious is always a losing battle.  

Heretics unite!  LOL

- Jeff

This is my experience.

when I had the Rogue Cronus Magnum I swapped out all the preamp tubes with the help of Brent at Brent Jessee Recording, look him up on line.  I spent $467 on 5 NOS tubes from the ‘50s and ‘60s. The sound of the amp changed to such a degree I believe I would have had to at least $3000 more on an amp to get to the same place.  
 

I change the 2 gain tubes in my PrimaLuma EVO 400 from the PrimaLuna branded Chinese tubes to a top end NOS Aperex 7316 and received better bass, expanded and smoother highs, a larger soundstage (both width and depth). I only spent $750.These were also a recommendation from Brent.  Again the benefits far exceeded the cost.

But there is no way the manufacturers can put these in from the factory.  One is cost the other is availability of NOS tubes, which get more scarce all the time.  But there is one advantage to old stock tubes and thats durability.  Reputable tube sellers have a reasonable return policy.

Thats been my experience, but I would not have attempted it with out expert advice and a reputable tube seller I could talk to.

I just spent $4k on 3 fishing rods and reels. The fishing line added another $600, and then there’s jigs , tungsten costs 3X but fishes better.  My point is I can buy a cheap rail rod AND reel for $700, or a nice rig for $2k. Does it get more bites, No but it lands more fish. I know this is somewhat obtuse but it demonstrates cost Vs enjoyment. I do a bit of tube rolling and most I purchased before prices went crazy. I have about 12 pairs of nos 12AU7’s. I just put 2 Tekefunken 12AX7’s curve traced matched and 4 Tekefunken G73R’s in my mono blocs. The current value of those 6 tubes is about $1500, I have $800 in them. I know bla bla bla , but bare with me. If I can afford the tube why not put it in something that costs significantly less. If you have a bare bones devise maybe that tube will make an incredible difference, maybe not. If I take the whole money BS out of my rant , the bottom line is we are curious and we find great joy in those moments. For me this is a huge thrill and I guess some sort of emotional high, and  I’ve had failures too, We experience those moments alone but  as an audio enthusiast immediately wish to share our new discovery. I say you go for it and when you have a win share with all. Please excuse my money rant , it was only meant to illustrate that the true joy of discovery can be expensive and for me having a modest income has to be limited. I was on the phone with a guy I just met and he explained gear to me for 2 hours. During the conversation he stated he had a $150K in his living room system, but he found his joy in the music and was just as happy with the $1000 rig he put at his girlfriends house as he has 4 systems at home. I commend you for asking , and I admire you for sharing, and I share your joy of discovery. And if I buy a lemon I can admit I screwed up move on. I wish we could establish a trusted friends group just to share tubes. There are a lot of people with some absolute treasure safety stores away. Much Respect, Mike B. 

After posting I began to think about the turds I bought. Klipsch Heresy II’s , reproduction Dynaco MK III’s, JBL 4312A’s, JJ small signal tubes. Then stuff that had no impact , cheaper aftermarket power cords, custom made walnut platforms for speaker bases. I don’t get a thrill spending as I worked for wages. And I don’t struggle with bias conformation and I don’t put lipstick on a pig. For me it’s finding an improvement and spending the rest of the day fixating on the new found sound. And I’m Done 😆

I think, that as a general rule when assembling a system some reasonable proportionality makes sense. But in particular, when playing around with exceptionally inexpensive equipment (particularly if it is very basic and strongly reflects the tubes in it) then that can be fun. 
 

If you are building a permanent… best you can afford system… this would be a very hit or miss strategy, unlikely to get the best possible system sound. 

With a device as simple as the Gremlin, you’re pretty much relying on the quality of the tubes to deliver the best sound.  You certainly won’t get that with bottom-dollar, poorly-matched, poorly-constructed, noisy, microphonic 12AU7s.  In fact, I’d say there’s something rather elegant about a tube-based device that pretty much relies on the quality of the tubes themselves to deliver best performance.  So it costs $120.  You could cheap out on tubes and get $120 worth of sound, or spend $500 on tubes and end up with a unit that sounds like it cost $620 instead $120.

Let’s say I build a simple RCA 12AX7 phono preamp. I use inexpensive but well-matched components--film caps, resistors, a Hammond power transformer.  About twenty parts in all!  Cost about $200.  What’s going to sound better, cheap Chinese tubes or Telefunkens?  The answer seems obvious.  Now let’s say I spend $1500 on a Hashimoto power transformer, teflon capacitors, Takman resistors, etc.  Will it sound better?  Maybe.  But with cheap Chinese tubes, the preamp will still sound mediocre.  So basically I’ve wasted $1300 on fancy passives by cheaping out on the one device that actually makes a significant difference--the 12AX7.

The same goes for the amps and preamps I actually do build.  I can tell you that the tubes I recommend make a bigger difference in the value of those components than any amount of money I could charge for Duelund caps or amorphous-core output transformers.  Cheap Chinese KT66s produce less power and more distortion than the more expensive Gold Lions.

Dennis Had doesn’t use fancy components in his Inspire amps.  He uses good ones that do the job and don’t get in the way of the sound.  It’s up to you to decide whether that amp sounds just okay or wonderful, depending on how much you’re willing to spend on the tubes.

+1 @dogearedaudio , Outstanding share, thanks. I bought a Had Inspire 6 years ago. I think it was about $1600 at the time. I spent about $3K on tubes for the amp over a 2-3 year period. The enjoyment I had experimenting far outweighed the cost. My sweet spot is a Tekefunken E88CC, NOS RCA Coke Bottle Rectifier, and NOS GEC KT 66 or KT88’s. Given all the exotic tubes I purchased Dennis recommended JJ KT-77’s, they’re actually pretty nice. Every time I tried new tubes it was like Christmas. 

What are your thoughts on the financial limits? Do yo have a limit? What is your limit?

Seems your thinking is one and done, but for many of us we're on a continual journey of discovery within our budgets.  Also, thinking of just tube or op-amp as a separate budget item is not useful, they fall under the umbrella of our budget for this hobby in general.  

LOL! I can see where it might appear that I have been one and done. I guess in terms of responses I have been, but I have been following the thread with bated breath (I learned "bated breath" in an English class a gazillion years ago, and though it's not part of my typical vernacular (I guess I learned a few things in class), it fits this situation). In this particular instance "bated breath" is appropriate  

Many a time I started to write a response and held back for fear that my words might not come across as intended. I think for some my original post already did. I will put those fears aside and share some additional thoughts anyway...

It seems that some of the posters in this thread may have taken my words not as intended. I wasn't by any means trying to tell anyone how or what they can spend their money on. It's their money and they can spend it however they see fit, whether I would spend my money that way or not. And I'm also very aware that this is, or can be, an expensive hobby. I spend plenty. So I wasn't trying to minimize that either. 
 

For me, as another poster stated much better than I, it's about proportionality. I just can't see spending as much, or more, on tubes as the amp. If I want to experiment with tubes I would start with a better base. I'm the first to admit that I am a novice when it comes to tubes/valves, so I believe others when they say that tubes make the biggest difference. However, I'm not of the belief that the rest of the platform doesn't matter. If that were the case the people wouldn't by more expensive tube based equipment. If I'm going to spend ungodly sums on tubes, the I'm likely to spend ungodly sum on the platform from which those experiments will be conducted. But that's just me. 
 

Maybe the issue is that I am not a tube person. I don't have anything against tubes, but I just haven't heard anything yet that makes me a tube first person, even though I would seriously like an ampsandsound Mogwai SE. Also, my statement, while it was initiated by a video involving tube rolling, I also stated my feelings apply to op amp rolling as well. At least with op amp rolling there is no ungodly amount of money.  Better op amps are just expensive. 🙂

Like I said, I've been following, and I still find the discussion interesting even though most haven't said if they have a limit or what that limit might be. It also seems that my post seems to have attracted a tube crowd and not many interested in op amps. 
 

Anyway, thanks to all of you that have taken the time to share your thoughts and opinions. I appreciate it. 
 

i really should have replied via my computer and not my phone. Typing this has been painful. Please forgive any typos or grammatical errors. It's probably just as painful to read. LOL!