I think if you aren't getting subs, then a pair of Quattro's or Trio's would be a better move.
I own the 3a sigs and paired them with 2w subs. The 3a sigs by themselves sound pretty good, but a pair of subs really fleshes them out.
You could also buy a pair of HSU subs (or at least one). They come up for sale on Agon or Ebay. They are considerably less expensive and provide decent bass compared to the Vandy subs.
As I said before, you should contact Johnny Rutan at Audioconnections. He won't steer you wrong. |
The VAC is an excellent recommendation, as is a Jolida but you need an outboard phono for them. I owned an el84 Jolida and it was fun. I found that the construction met a price point but it all worked well.
Buying a used Vandy 3a is a smart way to go, as long as they are in good shape. I would also agree about the table recommendation. Shop wisely for your front end. This is where it all begins and you should get the best you can afford.
Not to push my table to hard but, if you want I would be happy to hightail you some needle drops so you get a good sense of its excellent playback capabilities.
With the direction you are going, you are going to have hours and hours of fun. |
VAC Avatar has standard MM phono and optional MC phono instead of the MM. If you decide to proceed with VAC, ask the seller about which one is there now. You probably wouldn't want low output MC cartridge and high output MC would work just fine with MM phono stage. In any case, though some others think differently, I would go with an excellent MM cartridge not MC one. Good MC cartridges are expensive and not everyone actually prefers them. But that's another subject. |
Good mc are not expensive but that's another topic. The VAC with a phono is a good thing. |
Get the vac spend 3 k on used table and cart , bigger used vandys you will be happy .. That vac is rare to see used . It is a serious company they have hyper esoteric gear . It would be a focal point of a system for an above average joe . I would love to have it . Look for a vpi classic front motor , or a prime if you can swing it . Jmho |
A Rogue Cronus Magnum ii, hardly used, just popped up in AG used postings. It appears to be a good deal @ 1595.
You could do a whole lot worse and hardly better.
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Well, I unfortunately missed the deal on the Cronus Magnum ii, because our travels over the holiday got a bit crazy. In addition, we were faced with the option of opening up a second BnB location that would have eliminated our stereo budget. We had to kind of back away for a while and make a big decision.
On the bright side, I now have a slightly larger stereo budget (8-10K) as we decided to pass on the second location :-) Based on the new budget, if I am able to find some decent used gear, i should have a nice system to start with.
Unfortunately, I may be asking you all for a bit more advice moving forward. I really appreciate all of the help and recommendations so far!
Time for me to start doing a little more research...
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I could suggest you audition Vienna speakers, in addition to Vandersteen. I heard a few models driven by both solid state and tube electronics. It was quite nice in either case.
When buying used patience is the virtue. On the other hand, if you know what you are looking for, the price appears to be about right and seller reliable, one must be prepared to decide quickly. Some pieces are rare and may sell within an hour or two. If going with the Rogue, probably buying new from a reputable dealer with full warranty would be a better move. |
@inna I learned my lesson the hard way on that. I was actually sitting down with my wife to make a decision on the VAC last night and it was gone. I found the same amp listed on another forum from the same seller, but I doubt it is still available. |
When a rare piece comes up here and is mentioned on the forum it is gone! The forum readers say hhmmm dam i,m buying it( there are some very well off gon readers and a few g is not a big deal to them ).I had a post on cd players someone mentioned a specific Bel Canto ,I hesitated for a day and it was gone.That vac was a great piece and I also almost snagged it myself .This hobby will keep you constantly upgrading until you go broke( unless you are very fortunate in that case you will have 200k in your system lol) or finnally realize it's really about the music and eventually if you still have your sanity you will start to focus on your collection and the listening process. Again i strongly suggest dilligence with your search here it will pay off ,look everyday things revolve here all the time ,i would most certainly buy used gear .You will get so much more in the end if you do your homework ..
respect and good luck
..P.S you missed out on a great amp ... : ( but there are many many more ... |
There will always be another 'deal'. Patience is a virtue when buying used.
I just scored a pair of Vandy VSM's on Ebay for $200 bucks.
Things just appear sometimes and you need to grab them before the next guy. |
Thanks for the reassurance @oleschool and @gdnrbob. I know I’ll find what suits my needs/wants best eventually. I had a local shop turn me onto the PrimaLuna DiaLogue Premium HP. Does any one have any thoughts/experience with that amp? @miner42 I believe you brought that unit up in an earlier post, care to weigh in on the recommendation? |
The prima luna are nice.(pretty too) I do not want to bust on any dealer there are many good ones ,i was a salesmen for yrs at a brick and mortor back in the day.All i can give is my opinion cotton,and in this hobby of 35plus years the ole "one mans floor is anothers ceiling" could not be more true. the amount of high end gear i saw people off during my time is insane .I came home with so many trade ins and this one."do you know anyone who takes old speakers away ? these things are huge" or "its an old tube thingy!" lmao
People rotate through gear like mad, it’s an obsession to many.Just my opinion but unless ya got the bucks a slightly used tt that was 4k is yours for 2k a 6k plus amp is 2-3 k speakers same thing man. although they are just more difficult to ship ,i would search craigs daily. use tempest it will search any craiglist in america,then go listen and grab them if you like them .I personnally have had the best luck with gon members vs others like highfii shark etc..just me but be warned stay in the U.S i have been burned by customs on returns taking months!!
Your on a treasure hunt!
some of us look at alot of used gear for fun,I,m sure there are guys here that can also keep an eye out for ya erik is a great guy ,inna is way in the mix too ..good luck because your screwed lol :-)
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Make sure you occaionally check you messages buddy ...
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I buy serious stuff only on Audiogon, it is more a community than most other places. I very rarely sell anything so can't really tell but would list it here too to begin with. Yes, I check often what's available, a few times a day. |
30 yrs might be rushing it a bit. |
Cottguy, I think that you are doing it exactly right. Seeking advice and, very cleverly, advice about infrastructure.
That's what nobody sees, but everybody hears. Power is usually neglected, yet it is a critical piece of the puzzle, for two reasons: first, it affects the sound, and second, it affects the longevity of your equipment. Every piece of equipment in my system, from (active) speakers to turntable motor, is protected by an isolation transformer. You can hear the difference for each piece. Plitron makes a wonderful line of isolation transformers, from raw pieces to finished boxes, all the way up to medical isolation transformers. I submit that if it's good enough for a hospital, it's good enough for audio - because in a hospital, it has to work, and smart people have already sifted the quality stuff from the snake oil.
That said, when isolation transformers are doing their job they can growl, so it's a good idea to site them in a garage or utility room. That means an electrician, or a good DIY project for you.
I also suggest another piece of the puzzle, similar to electrical infrastructure - a record cleaning machine. Clean vinyl records sound LOTS better, and wear the stylus less. Someone analyzed the crud in a record groove, and found that it was a near perfect grinding compound, consisting mainly of grease and diamond dust. Just the thing for a precision ground diamond stylus to bath in.
If you have an expensive stylus, that crud can cost you mucho dinero, so I suggest that the quality of record cleaner should match the quality of your cartridge. I have a Koetsu, and so I use ultrasonic.
My final suggestion is to concentrate on the biggest bang for your buck, at each stage. I find that cables are the least bang for my buck - so mine are about 1% of my system cost. Really. YMMD, but don't be shy about sticking up for what you hear, how much it costs, and therefore what you are going to take home.
Good luck!! And welcome!!! |
This is a neverending subject - cables. To put cost aside for now, cables are components. There is no difference, one has to treat them as such. Signal transmission is just as important as anything else. My approach is that cables must me at least one step higher than the active components they connect. In this case you will hear everything those components are capable of. |
Can't agree, Inna. Cables connect components - and the internal wiring of components is rarely, if ever, up to the standard of the interconnects. Further, the caps and resistors and inductors in the components are almost always far from ideal.
I start by correcting the physics, which is well established and not the subject of neverending discussion. |
@terry9 We are extremely fortunate that our listening area will be directly above our garage which houses our breaker box. So running a dedicated power line will be extremely easy as will housing power dedicated equipment. A record cleaner will be purchased the day I buy my table. I was unfortunate enough to audition some equipment at a store that hadn't cleaned their vinyl and I was appalled at how bad it sounded.
@inna I know that cables are a hotly contested subject. That's part of the reason I haven't brought them up yet. Also because I'm waiting to pick out my gear before I begin to dive into that topic. We'll revisit that when the time comes :) |
Terry9,
Hearing is believing, but if you never try you will never know. Did you actually try really great cables?
By the way, Cottguy, there is Nottingham Interspace turntable with Interspace arm, I presume, for sale here. Price is high and should be taken down by about 20%/25%. Put Goldring 1042 MM cartridge on it, and it will make a great audiophile entry level analog front end. I have Spacedeck, it is next step in line and most popular Nottingham. |
If you want to consider new Nottingham, Larry from Hollywood Sound in Florida sells them. I think, it is $1500 new. If you decide to talk to Larry, take note that he likes Moving Coil cartridges and will try to convince you too to at least put that Dynavector in the arm. |
The additional advantage of Nottingham arm is that wiring goes straight from the cartridge to the phono stage, so you wouldn't need interconnect. And Nottingham wiring is excellent. |
Hello Inna. Yes, I did try theoretically optimal cabling in two controlled experiments, one for interconnect and one for speakers. By 'theoretically optimal' I mean derived from the solutions to Maxwells' Equations, with special care taken of impedances and dielectric absorption.
To my ears, differences were marginal, given a certain minimum level of quality - much more important was the ability of suboptimal cables to reduce high frequencies, leading to the taming of various types of distortion, such as that caused by incautious use of electrolytic caps in the signal path. See my remarks on the components which are connected by interconnect.
In my system, to my ears, a first rate microphone cable with ETI connectors is close to as good as it gets. For $50 each. Goertz speaker cable is as good as it gets, also in my opinion. For a few tens of bucks a foot. For the cost of 'serious' cabling, and a marginal improvement at best, I can make a serious improvement in several other areas: upgrade caps, upgrade resistors, redesign the phono stage, etc.
As for NAS turntables, we are in complete agreement - they are very good for the money. |
Oops, new Nottingham Interspace with arm is $2500, that means that the used one's price is right if the condition is excellent and it doesn't have too many hours on it. It might be an older model, I am not sure. |
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have to chime in and agree with inna ,in my personal experience cables have made a drastic difference.do i need 5k for a pair? no not for my set up .But i can say i have some bucks in cables.From my tt to phono and to pre ,oh yes!.I run an intergrated to help with the cable issues.and the difference is most noticable. but i would not spend your money there anytime soon if it was me.get the vandys you desire then amp then tt (again a hot subject but get the best tt you can afford cart can be added and upgraded at any time .jmo.
and for goodness sakes treat the room it will help your sound like a component upgrade..
inna ..i should have bought that dam vac lol |
Oleschool, one day it will appear again, you can be prepared. And to make it easier for you - I am not going to hunt it down. Whatever I can afford or find, I will almost certainly concentrate on upgrading my pretty good SS phono to a great tube one.
Speaking of cables. I just got a cable to replace my excellent interconnect that runs from phono to the integrated. For the purpose of quicker breaking in process I put it on my Nak tape deck. I should've never done it, even new this cable sounds much better than the one I usually have there which is also pretty good. So now I will refuse to take this new cable from the deck and consequensially will need another same cable to finally put it on the phono stage ! Damn. But it can wait, no rush, I've got patience. In the end I'll have two great cables. |
And of course I agree that of the three elements of turntable set-up the table itself is the most important.
Say, entry levels Rega and Pro-Ject have okay tonearms but not so good tables. And though I am personally unfamiliar with it - just read about it - VPI seems to be the other way around. It might, just might, and again I didn't auditioned it, make certain sense to start with new $700 PIoneer direct drive table with perhaps Grado wood $300 cartridge. You would need a good phono cable though. Just a thought. |
So, I have been watching every youtube video I can find in my spare time in preparation for the RMAF trying to come up with a game plan of which equipment and presentations I want to see. I have a 3 day pass, so I should have enough time to cover a lot of ground and I'm fortunate that my wife is really into this and will be attending the show with me. Have any of you attended the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest before? Any recommendations on brands/models to check out or people I should try to talk to?
Personally, I have been intrigued by Pure Audio Project's Trio15 Voxativ and Peter Brunniger (sp?) from AV Showrooms seemed to be very impressed by them. I have no grounds for my interest other than the fact that they are in my price range and they seem to be getting really good reviews. However, the Vandy 3A sigs or Treo CTs are still at the top of my list.
I'm also starting to lean towards the Primaluna DiaLogue Premium HP Integrated but with the KT150 tubes. I'm headed to Golden Sound in Denver today to audition it. I'm not going to lie, I'm not terribly impressed how Primaluna touts what they do as a company. I know they have quality gear, but constantly trying to point out other companies flaws to try to stand out is pretty lame. Let the gear speak for itself.
I have about 3 weeks till RMAF to try to audition as much gear as possible and once the show is over, we are hoping to finalize our decision on what we want to get.
@inna The Nottingham Interspace looks pretty damn nice. I checked out their site and can't find any US dealers and they won't be attending RMAF, so I probably won't be able to audition one. How do you feel about buying a table without hearing it? |
Hollywood Sound in Florida, hwdsound.com, is I think the only place. Larry is the distributor and dealer. But there might be some others I haven't heard of. He advertises here too, as I remember.
I am concerned about Primaluna's mug slinging, I do not deal with people like that unless absolutely necessary.
Cottguy, question is how do you feel about it? I felt just fine when I bought my Nottingham but I knew what I wanted and I knew what I didn't want. I don't know Larry's policy, maybe he lets people audition some turntables, though it would be quite a hassle for him especially if many people want it, so perhaps he is doing alright by simply selling them in his area and by mail to those who are sure that they want them. I had $1500 for table/arm, didn't want VPI, Rega, Sota, better Pro-Ject, Clearaudio, Basis or Linn, all for mostly diffrerent reasons. This quickly led me to the idea of used Nottingham Spacedeck/Spacearm. It took some time for it to appear on Audiogon. These days I see only a few of them for sale a year at best. Usually those who like them keep them for a very long time. My next upgrade if it ever happens would cost me $10k in today's dollars, far beyond what I can afford, and I would not buy anything in between. |
Sorry for the delay in answering your question. At times, yes I wished for more power, but the lushness of sound, provided I didn't play at too high a volume, was wonderful and for the size of my room, it was sufficient. |
So the audition of the Primaluna was pretty disappointing due to the speaker options. Nothing against the shop I was at or Focal lovers, but the only real option for the audition was the Aria 948. For a $5,000 speaker I was extremely surprised at the lack of balance it had. It was so bright that my ears fatigued after 3 songs. 3 hours later, my ears still feel like I was at a 4 hour long heavy metal concert and the most extreme thing I listened to was Steely Dan. High piano and guitar notes were downright metallic and piercing. It seemed as if some one turned the volume up several notches every time there was a high note. Trying to find a decent place to audition gear is turning out to be a challenge. One thing I can take away, is that the Primaluna didn't seem to have a hard time powering the Arias. |
What state are you in again |
Well, if you are going with Vandersteen 3a sigs. I would suggest getting a McCormack amp. Steve McCormack uses Vandys and I can attest, they sound great.- And also in your price range.
If you want tubes, then Atma-Sphere would be my first choice. |
@oleschool, I'm in Colorado...downtown Denver.
@gdnrbob, I'll look into them, thanks for the recommendation! |
Cottguy, I would be hesitant to buy without hearing. But that does not mean never.
I bought an upscale Nottingham unheard, after hearing the Hyperspace and admiring it. I spoke with Tom (then the owner/designer), and upgraded to the Mentor, and have never regretted. The table is at home in an all-electrostatic system, with a Koetsu. The modern equivalent of the Mentor is the Dias, which is said to be better than the Mentor, with superior resonance control.
Also consider the British Trans-Fi. I use their air bearing tone arm, which is a superior performer at $1,000, punching at 10x the weight. When I bought, they offered a money-back guarantee, which I don't think anyone ever exercised. They now have a TT, the Salvation, which gets very good reviews.
So there you have it. Two TT with very high bang/buck ratios. See what they will do for you - there is also a store in Toronto, if you ever get there, My Kind of Music, which sells Nottingham. Also, he is very very serious about set-up, which is very important for tables of this class.
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Welcome back to the hobby! I’ve been at this hobby for a very long time and, while I can’t claim to be familiar with the various very latest gear (amps) that will undoubtedly be recommended, I think I can offer some advise on some basic and time proven rules of thumb that might help you make some smart decisions:
Vandersteens: You like them and have decided; they are a good, solid choice. Next, and rule of thumb no.1:
-SOURCE, SOURCE, SOURCE! No amount of information lost at the source can be retrieved further down the line. I don’t like the idea of starting with a turntable with a built-in phono stage. Given the direction you seem to be headed in, this won’t satisfy for long and may (will) cause problems in setting up a good sounding, well balanced system. Consider starting with a solid turntable/arm/cart (especially the table).
-I know the 2CE’s well and they are a very good speaker and will satisfy with your music preferences. They are full sounding with a natural midrange which will do justice to piano and vocals. However, they are not the most resolving or detailed and whenever I have heard them with less than top-tier (expensive!) tubes they have always sounded a bit murky and lacking some detail with a balance that was TOO full sounding to my ears; this, including the already recommended Quicksilver monos which is how a local dealer demoed them for me. I have heard them sound very good with the right ss amp in the context of a well balanced system. I am a die-hard tube guy; but, personally, I would start with a good solid state amp like the Ayre that Stringreen suggests. Many other options available. When you have your front end (tubes?) settled and tuned, then have your dealer loan you (he should....considering) some tube amps and see what you think.
-I would not buy subs yet. You may find you don’t need them and will add a lot of complexity to the initial process of building a system. Get to know how the 2CE’s interact with your room’s acoustics first.
-I like the idea of a dedicated line for your system and since you are having electrical work done anyway ITS A NO BRAINER. Like the attention that the source deserves, this is as fundamental as it gets.
-Start with good solid cables that are not "trick" cables until you are settled with your amplification (low and high level) and optimize later. Mid-level Kimber comes to mind.
You will be getting to know your room and how the new gear interacts with its unique acoustics. IMO, the source is where the magic happens or gets destroyed. Slow down and always remember that component interaction and synergy is key. You have your speakers. I would focus on a front end that will satisfy long term and take it from there. Amplification and cabling that you may replace later would certainly be more than adequate for 2nd or 3rd systems.
Good luck!
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I think, for the OP the most important thing is to have a full tube chain and then choose the speakers that work well with it, not the other way around. SS is out of the question here, irrelevant, so is hybrid. I understand this approach, it is not the most common and more difficult, but just as legitimate. I could do it either way, especially if I wanted to use SET which I don't unless it is Lamm, Wavac, Ypsilon etc.
He is not chasing resolution, great dynamics and tremendous tight bass. The man wants good tube sound, why don't you stop recommending what you might do, work within his paradigm if you can.
As for the source, yeah, at least as important as speakers, that's why I kind of gently suggested considering Nottingham in the under $5k new category, with more or less neutral sounding MM cartridge. |
Trans-Fi Salvation TT with magnetic suspension, 20 lb platter and air bearing tone arm, $3300. New. Beat that. |
Inna, his "paradigm" includes Vandersteens; he has decided those are the ones. Why, then, do you recommend other speakers? This is not a contest and different approaches are educational. I stand by my suggestions. |
@cottguy Well, if nothing else you have discovered that audiophiles these days are passionate about our hobby and take the advice we give here seriously.
In the ever increasingly important internet marketplace, user reviews can be very helpful. Countless purchases I’ve made from Amazon have been strongly influenced by user reviews. I find most people to be sincere in their opinions as they value the integrity of others’ reviews as well.
If your want tubes, then stick to it. Now it is just about what tube pieces to consider, audition and then purchase. After that its cable time. You can choose cables that work well with your system and provide you the sound that’s true to you. Finally, don’t forget vibration isolation for all of your gear, most especially the tube stuff. That’s when the real "art" of system synergy comes into play.
Have at it!
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Ive always been intrigued by the trans fi it's a table i would like to see in person . And would be one of the ones to audition in the upgrade list from my classic 1 . |
Agreed hifi
now start warming up that checkbook . And like any project set a budget . Then expect to double it lol |
Not double but maybe 20% more. |
Not to be condescending, but Frogman really speaks truth of the matter. |
Frogman, my man, you are so ungreatful in addition to not understading things. I once tipped you off for Camaron record, and you are being a nasty boy. Vienna speakers are within the OP's paradigm, solid state of hybrid amplification is not. |
"or" hybrid amplification. |
What took you so long? You must be very tired after watching from the sidelines for all that time. But I would definately go all out because you have 30 years to make up, good luck!
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