" face melting volume", I think it would depend on guests, some of them might deserve it.
Tight bass with tubes, especially at this level, is a very tough task to accomplish. Whether you decide to get Rogue Cronus Magnum II or something else, you might want to install New Old Stock tubes that are not too mellow, the ones that would give you more dynamics and bass control. You would have to consult with those in the know about which tubes. Speaker cables are going to be long?
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Welcome to the wonderland of passion memories and mythology.
Please tell us more of what you would like to accomplish, your music and sound preferences etc. Judging by your choice of speakers and the wish for a tube amp, you prefer very warm cozy relaxed sound, and you probably do not intend on playing music very loudly. How big is the room where the system will be? |
People want tubes not hybrids. It is more difficult but may be rewarding if done right. Cables are very important too.
As for table/arm/cartridge, a lot would depend on funds. Not many choices at the entry level. |
They have already chosen speakers. |
Hifiman5, people who started the thread. To experience tube sound fully you need tube power amp not only tube preamp.
Choice of dealers is important but not the most important and certainly not in the very beginning. |
I took a quick look, and it appears that within this price range there is nothing with phono stage and decent power except Rogue.
Does anyone know anything about Icon Audio or Cayin ? But no phono stage and less power.than Rogue Cronus Magnum. Rogue must be selling those by the truck loads. |
Cottguy, if you do take a risk and decide to buy used here, there is an older VAC Avatar integrated with phono stage. This would be my choice. VAC is a top level company, you cannot compare it to mass-market Rogue. If you do get it, don't rush with cables, this would require a careful thought and possibly consulting with VAC. Yes, no way would I go with Rogue, any Rogue, instead of VAC. |
That's what tubes are for, like candles, to be replaced with another set. |
Cottguy, VAC Avatar is a very rare find. I heard that the company is great to deal with. |
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Cottguy, I would not rush with the turntable. I believe that the source should always be a strong link in the chain. If you get VAC Avatar and Vandersteen 3 Sig. it is highly unlikely that you will be satisfied with any $1000 table/arm/cartridge package, though it will sound good. Buying turntables used is something of a double risk: damage in shipping and that table may have thousands of hours on it regardless of how it looks. I myself took those risks because I wanted an excellent table and could not afford it new. I got very lucky with the seller - a very honest man. |
VAC Avatar has standard MM phono and optional MC phono instead of the MM. If you decide to proceed with VAC, ask the seller about which one is there now. You probably wouldn't want low output MC cartridge and high output MC would work just fine with MM phono stage. In any case, though some others think differently, I would go with an excellent MM cartridge not MC one. Good MC cartridges are expensive and not everyone actually prefers them. But that's another subject. |
I could suggest you audition Vienna speakers, in addition to Vandersteen. I heard a few models driven by both solid state and tube electronics. It was quite nice in either case.
When buying used patience is the virtue. On the other hand, if you know what you are looking for, the price appears to be about right and seller reliable, one must be prepared to decide quickly. Some pieces are rare and may sell within an hour or two. If going with the Rogue, probably buying new from a reputable dealer with full warranty would be a better move. |
I buy serious stuff only on Audiogon, it is more a community than most other places. I very rarely sell anything so can't really tell but would list it here too to begin with. Yes, I check often what's available, a few times a day. |
The additional advantage of Nottingham arm is that wiring goes straight from the cartridge to the phono stage, so you wouldn't need interconnect. And Nottingham wiring is excellent. |
This is a neverending subject - cables. To put cost aside for now, cables are components. There is no difference, one has to treat them as such. Signal transmission is just as important as anything else. My approach is that cables must me at least one step higher than the active components they connect. In this case you will hear everything those components are capable of. |
If you want to consider new Nottingham, Larry from Hollywood Sound in Florida sells them. I think, it is $1500 new. If you decide to talk to Larry, take note that he likes Moving Coil cartridges and will try to convince you too to at least put that Dynavector in the arm. |
Terry9,
Hearing is believing, but if you never try you will never know. Did you actually try really great cables?
By the way, Cottguy, there is Nottingham Interspace turntable with Interspace arm, I presume, for sale here. Price is high and should be taken down by about 20%/25%. Put Goldring 1042 MM cartridge on it, and it will make a great audiophile entry level analog front end. I have Spacedeck, it is next step in line and most popular Nottingham. |
Oops, new Nottingham Interspace with arm is $2500, that means that the used one's price is right if the condition is excellent and it doesn't have too many hours on it. It might be an older model, I am not sure. |
Oleschool, one day it will appear again, you can be prepared. And to make it easier for you - I am not going to hunt it down. Whatever I can afford or find, I will almost certainly concentrate on upgrading my pretty good SS phono to a great tube one.
Speaking of cables. I just got a cable to replace my excellent interconnect that runs from phono to the integrated. For the purpose of quicker breaking in process I put it on my Nak tape deck. I should've never done it, even new this cable sounds much better than the one I usually have there which is also pretty good. So now I will refuse to take this new cable from the deck and consequensially will need another same cable to finally put it on the phono stage ! Damn. But it can wait, no rush, I've got patience. In the end I'll have two great cables. |
And of course I agree that of the three elements of turntable set-up the table itself is the most important.
Say, entry levels Rega and Pro-Ject have okay tonearms but not so good tables. And though I am personally unfamiliar with it - just read about it - VPI seems to be the other way around. It might, just might, and again I didn't auditioned it, make certain sense to start with new $700 PIoneer direct drive table with perhaps Grado wood $300 cartridge. You would need a good phono cable though. Just a thought. |
Hollywood Sound in Florida, hwdsound.com, is I think the only place. Larry is the distributor and dealer. But there might be some others I haven't heard of. He advertises here too, as I remember.
I am concerned about Primaluna's mug slinging, I do not deal with people like that unless absolutely necessary.
Cottguy, question is how do you feel about it? I felt just fine when I bought my Nottingham but I knew what I wanted and I knew what I didn't want. I don't know Larry's policy, maybe he lets people audition some turntables, though it would be quite a hassle for him especially if many people want it, so perhaps he is doing alright by simply selling them in his area and by mail to those who are sure that they want them. I had $1500 for table/arm, didn't want VPI, Rega, Sota, better Pro-Ject, Clearaudio, Basis or Linn, all for mostly diffrerent reasons. This quickly led me to the idea of used Nottingham Spacedeck/Spacearm. It took some time for it to appear on Audiogon. These days I see only a few of them for sale a year at best. Usually those who like them keep them for a very long time. My next upgrade if it ever happens would cost me $10k in today's dollars, far beyond what I can afford, and I would not buy anything in between. |
That's a dangerous invitation, it may cost him dearly. |
I think, for the OP the most important thing is to have a full tube chain and then choose the speakers that work well with it, not the other way around. SS is out of the question here, irrelevant, so is hybrid. I understand this approach, it is not the most common and more difficult, but just as legitimate. I could do it either way, especially if I wanted to use SET which I don't unless it is Lamm, Wavac, Ypsilon etc.
He is not chasing resolution, great dynamics and tremendous tight bass. The man wants good tube sound, why don't you stop recommending what you might do, work within his paradigm if you can.
As for the source, yeah, at least as important as speakers, that's why I kind of gently suggested considering Nottingham in the under $5k new category, with more or less neutral sounding MM cartridge. |
Not double but maybe 20% more. |
I forgive you, now please stop talking to me, will you?
Actually those might've been only McIntosh separates not integrated, I am not sure. |
Frogman, my man, you are so ungreatful in addition to not understading things. I once tipped you off for Camaron record, and you are being a nasty boy. Vienna speakers are within the OP's paradigm, solid state of hybrid amplification is not. |
"or" hybrid amplification. |
This is an unusual situation in that he is choosing the equipment together with his wife. His posts show that he is giving a great thought to what he is about to do. One of the problems is that I don't see many good tube integrated amps with good phono and sufficient power at a reasonable price. Of course, you can get used current VAC, but it's big money. Anyone knows anything about Melody brand from Australia ? I saw their used tube integrated here for $2k, no phono stage though and only 40 watt/ch which may or may not be enough. I also saw Viva integrated from Italy, great sound, but again not much power and no phono. |
One of the reasons why I suggested auditioning Vienna is because I know for a fact that many women like how they sound. I heard various models a number of years ago with McIntosh tube integrated and separates and with Krells. I actually preferred the sound with McI but with some reservations. I was not auditioning for myself just assisting someone. Sonus Faber sounded thick and slow with McI, by the way. |
A few thoughts. Since bass is important, I suggest paying even more attention to the turntable, table itself but also of course arm and cartridge. Tables are not created equal in how they do bass. Integrating subs is rarely an easy thing, two subs are better, active subs will have solid state electronics not tube so you would have both tube and solid state amplification in the system, which may be fine and may be not quite, could be an incoherent and bizarre arrangement, you would have to consult with the professionals and listen to demos.
Since you are becoming more open to other speaker brands, DeVore and Coincident are worth auditioning if you can. I will even mention Wilson, though it is something very different.
I would also speculate that you might actually be a VAC fan without knowing it yet.
Good sound is quite expensive even if you buy everything used. Good sound in bigger rooms is double that, at least. |
Cottguy,
You mean Interspace deck/arm of course not AceSpace deck/arm which is an equivalent of what I have only better. AceSpace deck/arm is about $4.5k new, I think, and Interspace with arm is $2.5k new.
Would it be enough for you? Would, say, used VPI Classic with arm be a better choice than new Nottingham Interspace ? The answer to the first question depends on how high your expectations are and will also depend on the rest of your equipment including cartridge and phono stage. I heard it once not in my system, I liked the table but not the rest of the system, as I remember, but still I wanted to go one step up, that's Spacedeck or AceSpace as it is now. To answer the second question I would need them side by side with the same MM cartridge and phono. My wild guess is that Nottingham would win in engagement musicality look and feel, and VPI in resolution. I like equipment that has character, that gets you involved. Nottingham does this for me, so does my Redgum solid state integrated. I can sacrifice some resolution and precision, and I don't chase ultimate bass. |
Anyway, I would not rush with the choice of a turntable, I would first settle the amp/speakers question. And you are absolutely right in refusing to buy any speakers without auditioning. At the very least you need to know the brand's sound signature. Also, some speakers have a very long breaking-in time, hundreds of hours, so what you hear at demos may not be how speakers can sound. Other pieces too, just normally not that long except some power cords.
As for the question of how to divide $10k, there is no one correct answer, it also depends on how lucky you are if you buy used. However, in your case it appears that the tube amp is going to be the most important element of the system and so it must be satisfactory, though not necessarily the most expensive. Some $3k new speakers can sound surprisingly good with excellent source and amplification. My amp cost as much as the speakers and my analog front end is more expensive than they both combined, but not by much.
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You certainly don't have to match front end the same way you do speakers and amp, but the question remains whether you match it at all or think of it as an independend unit. By the extension of it, do you match phono stage and preamp or preamp/amp unit?
Ideally, to my mind, everything must be matched and work as one single unit. In reality it is difficult or impossible to achive and not even easy to define exactly what you try match and in what sense. It is an art form in addition to science. And of course it can be quite subjective.
I, for example, would not consider Nottingham table if I wanted to play Wilson speakers. Don't ask me exactly why, I don't know, but in my view they would not work well together because they represent different approaches to sound reproduction. Nottingham and, say, Avalon speakers would probably be alright. Cartridge too, in my view, must somehow be matched with speakers not just table/arm/phono.
But that's another dimension. Any good table/arm/cartridge/phono will do, especially at this modest level. Still, given the choices, it may be worth thinking along the line. |
If there is Ypsilon/Lansche room there - stay away from it as far as possible because after you hear that sound you won't want anything less, anything else. Absolare/Rockport is great too but very different - avoid. Lamm and Gryphon amps - big no-no as well. |
It might be that the OP steered himself clear of us. He is not talking. |
Cottguy, if I may suggest, do not choose any speakers until you have seriously auditioned them. This is a critical component.
By the way, right now there is a VAC integrated wih MM phono. Great amp, excellent price. |
I would think that room tuning could wait until all the equipment is in place and every piece is fully burnt-in, including of course the speakers. Speakers can take hundreds of hours to reach top performance, cartridge 100/120 hours, cables 200/300 hours, tube amp - I don't know, probably a few hundred hours too. When it's done and the permanent speakers position is determined, then you can experiment with the room.
I am not sure about putting heavy curtain and creating kind of wall. It would definitely absorb a lot, whether it would be good bad or both is another question. The most important thing about listening room is that it must be alive not a closed-in dead space. Room and speakers work together, that's why I called it tuning not treatment. Sometimes moving one big chair a few feet makes a major difference. It may take some time to find the best arrangements or you might accidentally hit it right away. |
Cottguy, I suggest you start a thread specifically asking about tube amps, SETs and others. There are many here who have very different tube amps, they might be able to assist you if you state clearly what you would like to achieve and the kind of music you listen to most. It is easy to drown in all that. In any case, whatever you eventually choose will be a compromise, especially considering that your audiophile funds are not unlimited. If they were I could suggest getting Lamm ML2 monoblocks with Lamm preamp and Lamm phono and be set.
Not everyone at all, even with almost unlimited funds, prefers SETs overall but there are those who swear by their 1watt/ch, 8 watt/ch etc. SET amps. Atma-Sphere amps have high reputation, if you are concerned about noise they might make, try to talk to the owners of those amps and also to Ralph of Atma-Sphere himself.
There are also many Japanese companies making tube amps.
Whatever it is, good tube sound does cost quite a lot but not necessarily too much. Glorious midrange is great but that’s not all. That’s the reason why the Lamm that I mentioned is considered such an achievement. |
I'll just mention another brand that might be of interest to you - Allnic.
They have three integrated amps including one 12.5 watt/ch 300B SET. No phono, as I understand, but I may be wrong, maybe they have an optional one. The suggested retail is $6.9k which might be over what you are planning to spend, but you could probably get something off this figure. I am not familiar with it, just know that this Korean company has a high reputation among some in the know.
Tube sound has quite a range, you just have to clearly understand your preference. You might actually like both VAC and Allnic, in addition to others.
I said it once somewhere here on the forum but I think it would be relevant to repeat. In my opinion, the single biggest mistake in choosing the components is to spend less than needed. I myself made this mistake couple of times. And the second biggest mistake is to spend more than needed. I never made this kind of mistake, as far as I know. |
Harbeth and Zu, how did they do bass and highs ? |
The Harbeths were driven by VAC electronics. Electronics and cables contribute greatly to the soundstage presentation.
Still, I am surprised that Zu speakers with inexpensive electronics gave you a more of a life-like sound. I wonder how they would sound with, say, VAC or Audion integrateds. |
Others may disagree but I think that having a great amp, often more expensive than speakers, brings great advantage even with modest but fundamentally very good speakers. Many good speakers are capable of more than they might seem, just give them great source amplification and cables. And wall current, of course. |
Yeah, good idea, pictures please. |
Just make sure to audition the Audion and speaker cables with your speakers before finalising the purchases unless you already have. Cables can make big difference. You might also want to put a good power cord on the amp. |
