Finally found THE SPEAKER!!!

Tvad:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/wisdom-audio

DeKay

Yes, almost 10 years ago.

I didn't see the 75 listed on their current site.

There was also an SC-2, but I could not locate a list price.

DeKay

They don't post prices so I only have prices from my local dealer for the items I am looking at using in my home.

I am looking at installing the speakers in wall so I ended up not getting a quote for the L75.

The Line 2 are 10k each
Probably use a Sage Point 3 for the center - 5k
Sage C38i for rear - 4.7k
STS sub - 11k

@Tom8999

The Maggies share the same technology and have the same benefits.

The Wisdom I believe is a refinement on this tech and the direction I am heading. Part of my decision has been hearing a properly setup Dolby Atmos theater using the Wisdom Audio speakers. Again - this was after I heard them in stereo Music mode first.

Honestly - that is what did it for me. I knew that these speakers could actually deliver what I was looking for.

I wish there were more reviews by trusted / reputable magazines on the Wisdom speakers.

I am guessing on this but It feels to me that these speakers/systems are made for customers that want the best and don't necessarily do the type of homework many of us do. I am NOT rich but I am put a huge amount of our remodel $$ into the sound system since it is what I do for a living and my passion.

The rest of the home is going to be in ceiling speakers that are best bang for the buck!

Speaking of which... any suggestions on in ceiling speakers for whole house music. Party mode type of thing??

Focal? B&W? Polk??

Thank you!

@tvad HA!

Shhh... I haven't told my wife it will be that much yet! Actually we have been saving for the remodel for years and I had a certain amount to spend however I wanted for electronics AV. This remodel has been in planning and saving for well over 5 years. I have been fortunate to keep working during the pandemic so it has not hit me as much as so many others. I am thankful for that of course.

Yes it is a lot of money. This is my swan song, so I am going all out. Won't be playing feeding the addiction after this.

@dekay @tvad 

These were some other reviews I found in my research:

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/wisdom-audio-insight-p4i-wall-speaker-system

https://www.gramophone.com/Wisdom-Audio-Trip

https://www.audioholics.com/outdoor-speaker-reviews/wisdom-audio-sage-fl

https://www.residentialsystems.com/technology/wisdom-audios-ls4-line-source-loudspeaker

When I was up at the factory - they were doing a "dealer training" thing. Not exactly what it is all about, but they fly the dealers come out for a few days and train them on installations, room acoustics, etc... I don't know if all manufacturers do this as I am not in that part of the business. I met a couple of the dealers during a lunch break which I jumped in on for the free food! It was actually really interesting to meet and talk with some of these folks. They were so excited about sound just like me. It was refreshing to see this from my point of view. As an audio professional I always wonder if anyone else cares as much about this stuff as we do. We joke about it all time while on the dub stage that we are worried about the smallest of details - and then someone will say "It will sound great on my kids iPad. We all laugh and also cringe since we know this is the case with so many viewers.

Anyway - I had to split my time between the Theater they have setup and the stereo listening room depending on what the dealers in training had scheduled. This was not obviously the ideal time to be up on the tour for me, but it also was the only time that fit into my work schedule.

My point as I ramble on here.... One of my listening times in the stereo room they went through the line of speakers from the bottom to the top as they were playing them for the dealers. I got to hear the "lower" end stuff which is still expensive. Then again when I can walk into a Best Buy and purchase B&W 800 diamond series...

My suggestion to friends that start shopping for speakers is to always hear what "the best" thing is a dealer, speaker co, etc... have to offer. Try to listen what is available today with current technology. Then move down the lineup to find the sweet spot where budget and expectations meet. You can always say I only have this much - which most all of us have. Yes, my limit might more than you are willing to spend, but I know many that spend significantly more than I could even imagine. There is a point of diminishing returns. That is the line where only you can decide what is good enough.

Switching to TV since that is easier to talk about than audio for comparison... Some people are not bothered by grey looking blacks on a lower end LCD, while others can't stand it and need FALD backlighting or better yet OLED. I would fall in the FALD/OLED category. It will always bug me to see grey blacks and know it should look better. I have experience this with my own family... once they were shown what it could look like and should look like, they were no longer satisfied with the lesser quality display system.

Audio is a very difficult thing to discuss. In fact when working with directors I usually ask them to give me an emotional road map of what they want to feel when and where. The I can construct an audio map to affect those emotions. My job is not to simply put a door knock where a door knock goes. It is to tell story with sound. That door knock can be lazy and slow, fast and panicked, fast and quiet, etc... each one of those tells a different emotion. The same goes for what backgrounds you hear or don't hear. When I work with the best directors they truly understand the power of sound and will ask for things like... give me something here that pushes those characters apart, or makes them feel more intimate, etc...

I love my job and I love what sound can do for movies. Hence my passion for how I listen to my work as well as others at home!

I saw the in-wall 75 listed for $16K/pair (not certain if the SC was incuded in that price).

Think it was an ad here @ A'Gon.

DeKay

@tvad EXACTLY!!!

I use that example all the time! A scary movie ceases to be scary without the sound! And that is the more obvious ones. The subtle stuff that we do affects people just as much but isn't as in their face.

Sound is at least 50% of the movie going experience!!!

Best!

Fun discussion. Good luck with all this. I have a few professional sound friends, one at the Ranch in Marin, another in post at the Presidio and one freelance but mostly involved in documentary filmmaking for TV. I love to listen to them discuss mic placement. I'm a physics guy, so I understand the science, but the art of what you do is special.

To your question about in-walls, I bought a pair of L-85s from Noble Fidelity a few years ago. The speakers are superior to most in-walls under $1000/pair, imho. I never expected them to match my previous setup from Dick Sequerra, but I needed something in the ceiling and frankly, they sound really great for things like organ music when paired with my old M&K sub. Problem with in-ceilings is that they're in the ceiling and with Covid, we're all working from home and every room is filled, so speakers in the ceiling are also speakers in the floor and that's a non-starter. Also, the reason I reference the organ is because in most places with an organ the sound is up, so an in-ceiling speaker makes sense. But for a Yo-yo Ma cello solo, the sound comes from the wrong place. The Noble Fidelity owner was great to work with and the product is quality. And they're in Reno. My kids actually prefer the Nobles to the On-wall Maggies I replaced them with, but I think that will change as I get the Maggies better dialed in.

I still have an M&K Volkswoofer, probably the same model you bought in 1980 - wasn't that demo that M&K did back then phenomenal? If you saw their roadshow, they'd setup the sat/sub combo and play a jazz recording with no noise. The initial cymbal crash would knock you out of the room because everyone was used to the sound of the needle on the record before the music started. I didn't like the satellites; they were too bright for me,  but the sub was amazing used with various of Sequerra's setups. I've always lived in small houses (San Francisco Victorians), so I don't buy huge speakers, but I love the beauty.

G

From the intro I was expecting a story about Avantgarde.  Bought a used pair of Unos about 10 years ago.  Amazing then. Still amazing now.  30 watt Cary valve amp enough for rock concert levels in the living room. No audible distortion at any level. 😃

For the last 5 years I have been looking for speakers that can play films at reference levels with all the detail and punch, yet when I want to listen to music can give that nuanced and detailed imaging, space, air, articulation without being harsh and fatiguing.

Glad that you found your speakers! 👍

When you are in the industry and do sounds for film and have that for a living.

I just maybe misunderstanding what "reference level" means. Feels like a strong buzz word to me.

What I think the definition of reference level is for me or what I have learned.
It is when you have your home cinema receiver in volume with dB scale and going from ~ -100 dB up to full volume at 0.0 dB (some may go over to the positive side)

So I were told that reference level were full volume 0.0 dB?!

Now I am only a simple 2ch guy, but are you guys playing at 0.0 dB most of the time?!

Yes I know it is a side note but I get curious when this word "reference level" is thrown around because it sounds cool to say or actually people blast away at 0.0 dB all day long?

I do not believe one single word of this guy. It seems cheap publicity. Bla,bla,bla,....

Hello Everyone, this is a nice thread.    Just a little update from Wisdom.   We are in the process of building a completely new website.    Should resolve many of your concerns.    We plan to launch very soon.   Just beta testing it now.   Stay tuned.

I do work for Wisdom.    

I heard a demo of a Wisdom Audio complete system.  It was an incredible first time experience. Maybe second experience, the time I heard Brothers in Arms through a pair of Apogees in the 80's was a religious experience I have never forgotten.
Large listening room, sound was coming from everywhere, hard to explain.  I am a Golden Ear Triton Reference owner, but this was in a completely different league! And price $$$$

@almirante
You are entitled to your own opinions. It is a free country! These are my opinions. Just that.

@wweiss
I understand your feelings about that religious experience. I had that with listening to a pair of Focal Grande Utopias at my dealers shop. He also happens to be a guitar player and so he was listening to a bass solo when I walked in... Detailed, power, weight to each note. Not sure what it is that makes the "special sauce" when everything in a speaker works just right to give you that magical experience.

I have had that with a few speakers in my past. The thing for me now is the fact that I can actually get that with a speaker that is in the wall. In the past, to get the best from my speakers I had to get them at least 3' from the wall.

I get that everyone has their own opinions on stuff. That doesn't invalidate another's opinion. They are just that.

I had not posted before on this site because of this very belief. Most speaker arguments come down to how you the individual hear the world. how you think it should sound, and what you like to listen to. This last one is where I found problems. I wanted a speaker that didn't care what I was listening to or at what level I was listening to. Once I experienced that with a speaker - I felt it was time to share. I like to listen to classical, rock, EDM, female vocal, country and of course films!

An example of other peoples opinions. I used to read reviews of DVD / Bluray discs. Don't remember the site, but they would evaluate the quality of the video transfer as well as the audio. While I found the site helpful, it was also misguided from my point of view when it came to what they valued in regards to "quality" of the audio. Things like... did they have a lot of information in the surround speakers, good use of the subwoofer, etc... ??? Absurd! We put what is appropriate information into the surrounds, subwoofer, etc... to support the telling of the story and to convey the emotions of the scene. On top of that - we are delivering the director's vision of her/his film. But... the reviewer had their own opinion as to what was good or bad based on a personal belief. For them what made a good soundtrack was not what any of us in the professional audio community would see as important (and in fact we would often laugh at these very reviews) but to this reviewer that was key.

Anyway I digress as usual. 

My intent was to make people aware of my own journey and personal discovery. Like I stated before I have been looking into speakers for so long it was my weekend hobby. I would travel with a handful of CDs and a flash drive with my music demos to audition. That way I was always listening to the same source material no matter where I went. You get to know these tracks intimately.

I like what I have heard with the Wisdom Audio speakers. If you have not heard them well you owe it to yourself to go and listen to them. Who knows... you might like them too! If you don't. No problem. Just enjoy the ride!

If you’re looking for that kind of power, consider pro amps (Yamaha, Crown, Soundcraftsmen, etc.).

I have a pair of Soundcraftsmen PM860 monoblocks (from the 70’s) that I’ve recapped. They put out 900W at 4Ω. Fed by a tube preamp, they sound wonderful! My Martin Logan Spires love them!

@nordicnorm
Thank you. Yes I have been looking at that very option in particular with the Crown amps. I need a lot of power with multiple amps. If I was only doing stereo my amp choice would be much easier. It will be a lot of amps rack mounted and need to be concerned about thermal issues. Hence my thoughts on class-d. I am hoping the HiFi community has some experience with that type of amplification.

Thank you!

@drewde, I have heard the in wall line sources. Not sure which model.
They are good. I'm not sure the situation was optimal. If I were putting them in I would go to town reinforcing the wall. I would make a sound wall with 2 X 6 staggered studs' and I would mount the blue board with construction adhesive to prevent buzzing. I still would be inclined to use subwoofers. On a 16 foot wall I space 4 of them 5 feet apart. 
They are very dynamic and like any other line source they cast a large image which I prefer. They are not the last word in detail and transient response but they are better than most dynamic speakers for sure. With the right power they will go crazy loud. At normal loud levels they are effortless .  I assume they are part of a theater system? I would get a Trinnov Theater processor 8, 16 or 32 channels. It will provide your subwoofer crossover and help level things off. There are acoustic advantages of in wall mounting. You prevent early reflections off the front wall but you still have to deal with the side walls. Floor and ceiling are not a problem because they are line sources. So just the side walls need to be treated. 
I prefer line source ESLs but this sure could be the basis for a great system. 
What are some of your Movies?!

Mike

@richmos - nice to hear. I actually bought a BAT VK-225SE for me dad to power his ML hybrids. I was very impressed with the sound quality and the BAT pack tech has really been upgraded for those moments when a jolt of extra current it required. Very full sound. I’m definitely a BAT loyalist. Victor has always been helpful when I’ve called him as well.

I heard the floor standing Wisdom Audio.  I don't know how that would compare to the in walls.
drewde, can you share those demo tracks you use?  Always looking for hidden gems. 

Andrew, What kind of a system are you doing , 7.2? Multichannel class D amps are fine for the surround speakers. I would use amps like QSC PLX 3602 's for subwoofers (Class H) and I would use serious amps for the main speakers. These are all going to generate heat. Pass 600.8's or Parasound JC1+ would be fabulous. There is also Boulder and Constellation if you want to spend more money. 
If you want to lower distortion further you want to cross to the subwoofers higher up no lower than 80  Hz using a high pass filter on the main amps.
One subwoofer will not do it. My guess is you will need four. You like the line sources because they project power. You can not use them well with a point source subwoofer. You have to create a line source subwoofer to match correctly. My guess is you will need at least 4 to create the array.
You can't put them in the wall but they can be positioned on the floor right against the front wall where they will be out of the way. Please check out the Trinnov processor https://www.trinnov.com/altitude32/  This is a major cool unit and it has a great subwoofer crossover in it.
Please, what are some of your movies. I collect Blu Ray discs. I might have some already!

Made in USA!!! like election 😀

After getting Lord of the Rings on DVD and Blu Ray, I would have to crank up the volume to hear soft conversations by the actors, and then reduce the volume rapidly to save my hearing  during "action" sequences of any kind. Same for Avatar, Independence Day, etc. There's no way I would subject a good pair of speakers designed to reveal separate instruments in an ensemble or do justice to a folksinger plus guitars, banjo, string bass, and so on. That's not to say Wisdom Audio makes a bad product or JBL makes a punchy sound but lacks finesse.
So that's my only problem with this article- it's not about speakers- it's about radically different ways sound engineers mix a movie with ENORMOUS variations in volume from minute to minute, and music-only albums which are mixed from PP to FF 95% of the time. The there's the issue of how well recorded the music is in the 1st place, and the same goes for movies made long ago to today's blockbusters. I don't mean to be sour grapes, but a Bette David movie is recorded so you can hear every word, which to me just makes common sense since the script is the most entertaining part. 

Just want to say enjoy hearing about your industry experience. And, had not known about wisdom audio before. Always eager to hear about new products & technology. Appreciate grace with which you respond to haters.

 I also inherited my love of audio equipment from my father, albeit from a different era. I inherited his AR2's, went to AR3's, wharfdales, Dahlquist DQ10's and DQ20's, even a pair of Tannoys the size of a refrigerator. Over decades, my system has evolved to a pretty high end system with five McIntosh components and Aerial speakers including their powered subwoofer. My system has always included a home theater aspect to it. I think that many of us are frustrated in the quest for speakers that excel in the context of both music and theater.

I agree with @french_fries that movie production values are part of the problem. We have all experienced the problem of over-modulated sound effects and music drowning out the dialog  (assuming the actors can actually speak so the listener can understand them.) We were all led to believe that this problem would be addressed by dedicated center speakers. In this regard, the dialog of some movies is actually more easily understood on an iPad. 

Do you think that the speakers you have chosen will address this problem?

@french_fries
I hear your frustration and the films you gave as examples are action films. When we are mixing these films for Theatrical release we strive for dynamic range on purpose. We monitor the mixes in carefully calibrated dub stages with EQ and volume settings that are used industry wide.

You are one of the people who appears to not like dynamic range in your movie/TV viewing experience. I get that. But there are a LOT of people that do enjoy the power that sound can deliver to the movie going experience.

We actually do what is called a "near field mix" for home viewing with is a compressed version of this very thing. We use small near field speakers and monitor the mix at "lower" to "much lower" reference level depending on the studio, director, etc... What happens with a lower reference level is that the quieter scenes end up getting raised while the louder scenes stay the same. We are compressing the dynamic range from the bottom up in this case.

I am one who advocates for this as LONG as a version of the uncompressed version of the track is kept in tact. After all... There are those of us who want a Theatrical experience at home.

Certain studios and/or directors demand that the track stay in tact which means no compressed home version.

If the compressed version is still not to your liking most DVD/Bluray players as well as surround processors have built in compression algorithms that might help you with your situation.

You indicate that all that matters to you is dialogue, which I would agree that dialogue is king in the mix, but is not all that matters by a LARGE degree than I might also suggest raising your center channel by 3 to 4 dB or to your liking.

We as a filmmaking society actually work very hard to NOT make a mix painful and to not play everything too loud. Sure it happens, but more time and effort is put into delivering the director's vision of his/her film than you may be aware of during the editing and mixing of the soundtrack.

Dynamic range is not something new and in fact is something I look for in a speaker as I not only enjoy female vocalists, jazz, blues, etc... but films, classical music, rock, country, and the list goes on.

Classical music composers have utilized the power of dynamic range to convey emotion for hundreds of years!

I love classical music. I have played violin since I was in First grade and I am quite a bit older than that now.

As a musician I can also tell you that playing music at a lower level that what is intended will also change the emotion of said piece.

"There's no way I would subject a good pair of speakers designed to reveal separate instruments in an ensemble or do justice to a folksinger plus guitars, banjo, string bass, and so on."  No offense, but this in a nutshell expresses my frustration over the many years of listening to loudspeakers. Why not have a speaker that can deliver everything? Every single speaker that I have heard in the past that supposedly were intended to deliver the nuance of an ensemble, etc... well they couldn't even play at a level that remotely came close to what an orchestra can reproduce in those moments I wanted to listen to them, let alone playback rock, country and forget about film.

So this comes down to the personal preference of the buyer, viewer and my personal choice is not to buy a speaker that limits what I can play on it.

The Wisdom Audio speakers I have auditioned EXCEL at detail and nuance. Remember that what you are talking about is transient response time of a driver. The planar magnetic speakers deliver this in spades! A violin sounds like a violin without any harshness that one can get from so many domes, horns, etc... At least in my experience.

My first requirement was how does the speaker play music. Then I would proceed to films. When I finally found one that could do both at the peak of the game was I satisfied.

I've owned DYNAMIC speakers that could bang out rock, but I never liked them as HiFi. 

Thank you for your input and I hope my response is taken in the spirit in which it is given.

Thank you!

@dukeofdoowop
Hi Duke... I think I may have addressed some of your questions, but not directly so I will try to do that here.

When you say over modulated, do you mean "distorted" or just louder than what you think they should be? We use over modulated to mean distortion so I am wondering if you just mean levels. Based on the rest of your thread I am going to assume it refers to level.

Again - what you are describing is the "dynamic" range issue.

Here is how things play in a mix. Dialogue (DX) is king. It is the reference level for the track. We play DX at a comfortable level while we are mixing and everything is relative to that. One of the ways we can make a scene louder without having to kill the audience - (yes believe it or not, MANY of us try to do this with our mixes) is to let the music and/or SFX (sound effects) drown out the DX without having to resort to things just getting stupid loud. As a viewer you know that the car, plane, train, whatever is loud now because the DX is now drowned out by the SFX.

I know this is not what you are talking about, but just thought I would share. Now there is one director in particular who does tend to burry DX (dialogue) with music with EXTREME level. Many of us have complained about this in the industry but again it is the director's vision so be it.

A center channel absolutely should help with your issue. My previous suggestions of raising the center channel by a few dB and maybe engaging the DRC Dynamic Range Correction algorithms built in to most DVD players and/or receivers might help achieve the "version" of the film mix you enjoy more.

There are also film enthusiasts that go full blow Atmos home theater and want that Theatrical dynamic range that is absolutely part of the movie going experience.

I have SO many headphones, but my goto personal music listening are my Focal Utopias. These have weight, detail, depth, dimension etc.... But they don't have what a full range loudspeaker can deliver. It doesn't give me sound I can also feel.

As a violinist I also feel the music. To be honest I haven't played my violin for at least 8 years now... not sure why it just sort of became less and less of my life. Talking about it makes me want to open the case and see if my fingers can still do the dance! Anyway... playing in an orchestra you can absolutely FEEL the music in your body as well as just your ears. I guess it would be like just tasting with your tongue and not your smell - you are not using all of your senses to their fullest... in my opinion.

I have no problem with levels in my own home with regards to film playback and this is not playing things at reference level most of the time. I am not utilizing any compression, but I guess I am ok with a little more dynamic pop than some. HA!

Your iPad experience is simply this. Those limited range speakers are designed to favor the DX range of the audio frequency which if you prefer DX only/mostly will work in your favor. I on the other hand miss the power of the score, SFX that bring to the film experience. Many filmmakers recognize that SOUND if at least 50% of the movie going experience.

Does any of this help???

Again... nobody is right or wrong about their own personal preference(s).

Glad to discuss further but as usual I get lost in the weeds as I ramble on here.

power my Duetta Sigs with a BAT VK250. Can get the Duettas to play very loud without distortion or fatigue.




You haven't heard what an apogee can do until you actively bi-amp them with well over a 1000 watts per channel using quality amps. 

drewde- I get your (voluminous) arguments/observations, etc. I have heard good things about Wisdom Audio myself so I have no problem with a successful technology that you want to discuss. I know classical music has dynamic shifts etc. My only observation is that people are known to speak softly even to a whisper on a film which also contains "other" sequences with loud to extremely loud content as well. And I still maintain that 7.2 home theater is in fact very different than 2.0 music coming from small to medium to 600 lb./each floor standing speakers
that assumes all the sound is coming from a bandstand or a stage. The 2.0 system has (99%) no conversations in any tone of voice in the mix. 
If Wisdom speakers sound phenominal that's great. I myself (just me!) prefer a movie like My Friend Godfrey or It Happened One Night to Transformers or another Marvel sequel. OK?

@french_fries 

I get it. My favorite film is Citizen Kane. Transformers and Marvel films are not really my cup of tea either. But there are plenty of other dynamic films that are not stupid comic book stuff. 

I would put a stereo pair of Wisdom Audio speakers up against pretty much anything I have listened to. Again... the majority of my time at Wisdom was spent listening to just that. Stereo music of ALL types. If I could afford the LS4 models I would get them. Just amazing. The great thing about a speaker like these is that they play at lower levels with greater detail and presence than more traditional speakers. Just because they CAN go loud, doesn't mean you need to listen to them at that level. My evaluation of these speakers is on quality not "volume/loudness"

Enjoy!

@drewde your comments and information are greatly appreciated. You have invested a huge amount of time on this thread. I am also a musician and a strong advocate of improving the sound quality of home theater as well as music reproduction systems. I agree that people who use sound bars and other inferior products are missing out on half the fun of movies. 

The latest, and worst iteration of the "SFX" problem is the canned crowd noise being transmitted over the announcers during NFL games. You can hardly hear the play by play over the gratuitous (and ridiculous) white noise.

My McIntosh AV preamp offers compression settings and I try to use them, but frankly, the setup of these units is so complex they need to be professionally set up. Based on your suggestions, I will do two things: Push the center channel settings and try to find an expert to calibrate my system. 

If that doesn't work, I will audition the Wisdoms.

@dukeofdoowop 

What are you using for your Home Theater setup? Speaker configuration 2.1, 3.1, 5.1, etc...

What speakers are you using now? You may have stated this earlier, but I don't recall.

What McIntosh preamp are you using.

Have you done any home theater calibration? At a minimum would be setting the correct delay compensation for each speaker and then a simple pink noise SPL cal. That should get you in the ballpark for sure.

The compression options many preamps provide are just that - compressors to address the needs of which you speak. These are not ideal, but might help reduce the loud peaks so you don't have to chase the volume for quiet DX scenes and then loud action sequences.

By raising the center channel you will also help give a boost to the DX (along with everything that is in the center channel) The center channel is the most utilized speaker for film mixes.

I would start with the basic calibration of the correct delay compensation and SPL level for each speaker. Then trying one of the compressors built into your preamp. Then if you feel the need for more DX separation bump up the center channel.

You should not have to buy all new speakers to get proper levels unless you have a severely mismatched center channel compared to your L/R mains???

If you are looking for new speakers, THEN you might want to put Wisdom Audio on your list of speakers to audition. They may fit your needs or maybe not, but if you haven't heard them you owe it to yourself to take a listen.

This was the intent of my post(s).

Let me know if I can help get your system better dialed in for you!

Best,
Drew

Thanks Drew
My components are as follows:

Aerial 7T Speakers

Aerial SW 12 Powered Subwoofer

Aerial Center Speaker

 

McIntosh MC 205 Multichannel Amplifier

McIntosh MX 121 AV Control Preamp

McIntosh MVP 891 DVD / CD player

McIntosh MPC 500 Power Supply

McIntosh MS 500 Music Streamer

I run my system as 3.1. I went through the built-in calibration and setup protocol  using the included microphone. The 7T's are new this year and sound magnificent, but many of us, like you, are always thinking about that one last upgrade...........

@invalid

Thank you for your response. I have never heard the Duetta Sigs. I bet they sound AWESOME!!! I am now a fan of the technology.

How do they hold up over time. This is still a concern of mine. I am so used the traditional speaker designs and how they hold up. Any thoughts on how this technology fares over time??

Thank you!

@drewde All your suggestions above are basic to the setup of a home theater system. Most of us on this board know how to do this. In my 5.1 system (separate from my 2 channel system) it is virtually impossible to hear soft dialog without getting blasted out of the room during so-called action sequences. BTW this has nothing to do with any hearing deficiencies as this problem is documented by multi generational listeners. Depending on the movie, I sometimes have to resort to turning on the captions which can be distracting. My opinion, the movie industry is catering to the bling, the masses, the dollars.  

@dukeofdoowop 

DUDE!!! That is an awesome setup!!! Yes I get the upgrade bug part of your post. I think that is half the fun of this hobby.

I love the McIntosh gear. Always have been a huge fan.

One other question... what are the dimensions of your room? Standing waves are one of those nasty things that are hard to tone down.

I have used Audyssey room correction before and have had VERY mixed results. In on room it worked fantastic and another it really muddied up the sound and I found using the basic distance settings for delays and speaker level settings worked better. I think the problem lies more with my room and the software trying to correct for poor room treatment on my part. If it has to overcompensate too much with EQ I find it hurts rather than helps. AGAIN... my personal experience ONLY!!

That being said - the Audyssey has some very good compression settings for just your situation.

Would you say that overall you find the DX hard to hear with films in general?
Is the dynamic range of quiet to loud a separate issue or the main problem?

I don't have your Control Preamp so I found the manual online. PG 37 discusses the Dynamic Volume (dynamic EQ) settings. The Dynamic Volume should help you with the overly loud issues - it has 3 levels of compression depending on your likes.

BTW - I do like the Dynamic EQ. It is basically a loudness contour (Fletcher Munson Curve) setting. When you turn down your level the bass suffers more than the 3k - 4k range and need to be adjusted upward a fair bit... I forget how much but roughly 10dB to sound equal in volume. What does this mean. When you are listening back to at a lower level it will adjust those frequencies to keep the overall tonal balance the same. It should still sound rich and full even at lower levels.

Page 30 of the manual discusses some other surround settings your preamp has. DRC is one of them which will work with the Dolby True HD tracks. It also has a D.Comp setting as well. I am not sure if you can run both D.COMP along with Audyssey Dynamic Volume and I would recommend double compression, but then again... Hmmm... maybe two light compressors would be better than one HEAVY compressor. That is something I would do in my own mixing/editing environment.

If you are running the Audyssey and like how it sounds in general, then lets just start with the settings on PG 37 and set the Dynamic Volume to at least medium. This will be a subjective setting as only you will know if you want more or less dynamic range.

So...

1. Room size
2. Is DX low overall?
3. Is DX fine, then things get too loud during action scenes. Too much Dynamic range?
4. When you ran the Audyssey calibration, how many sample points did you do?

Best,
Drew

Thank you for your response. I have never heard the Duetta Sigs. I bet they sound AWESOME!!! I am now a fan of the technology.

How do they hold up over time. This is still a concern of mine. I am so used the traditional speaker designs and how they hold up. Any thoughts on how this technology fares over time??

Thank you!




The foam that is between the clamps and bass foils deteriorates and then they can resonate very bad. There is a diy fix for this, but the current foil manufacturer frowns upon this if you ever want then replaced.

@ericsch Yes I am starting with the basics. Again you and others are complaining that they dynamic range of Theatrical Film mixes is too great for your liking. Period.

When the the film says "Directed by Ericsch" (or whatever your name is) then you can decide how much dynamic range you want in your film. It appears many of those complaining prefer the limited dynamic range imposed by Broadcast TV. I can tell you from personal experience when you play those tracks in a Theatrical environment - It sounds horrible.

Here are some great examples of Classical pieces that also have tremendous Dynamic range. 

Mahler Symphony 9 - Claudio Abbado/Berlin (Deutsches Gram.)
Stravinsky 'Rite of Spring,' - Valery Gergiev/Kirov (Philips)
Shostakovich 10 - Karajan/Berlin (DG)
Sibelius 5 - Vanska/Lahti (BIS)
Beethoven 9 - Vanska/Minnesota (BIS)
Arvo Part - Lamentate (ECM)
Benjamin Britten "War Requiem" - Rattle (EMI)
Verdi Requiem - Abbado (EMI)
Brahms "German Requiem" - Klemperer (EMI)
Bartok "Concerto for Orchestra" - Reiner (RCA)
Beethoven 5&7th symphs - Kleiber (DG)
Tchaikovsky 6th Symph - Pletnev (Virgin)

Sure they do not have DX as one person mentioned, but if listening on a properly calibrated system (usually just the basics will suffice) one should be able to hear the DX. If the loud scenes are too loud for your personal preferences then you need to utilize some of the MANY built in compressors available to you. NOT decide for the rest of the film going audience that things need to be set to your liking.

More than likely you don't even LIKE the movies that you are complaining about... just a guess, but it is usually the case in my past experience. Is there a film you really like that has this problem. Someone mentioned Lord Of The Rings. I did not work on that series but am friends with many of those that did. In my opinion they are great sounding tracks. My kids actually watch a lot of those over and over on a smaller system setup at home Just some old B&W CDM 7 in 5.1 I bought when I first got married. All I could afford at the time. My kids will be playing these films in the background all the time and we don't really have any issues with things getting out of control.

And nobody has suggested that anyone has any hearing issues.

When we are mixing these films do you honestly think we just say wow things are too loud and we can't hear any of the dialogue so oh well... Really???

Not every film will have big dynamic range issues. It is relative to the content of the film. Most of the times I hear this complaint with regards to action films. A film like  MEET JOE BLACK is not going to pop up as a film with too much dynamic range because the story doesn't require it. But if you are watching Saving Private Ryan, Apollo 13, Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World, etc... well then the story content does demand and benefits from having the ability to go from a whisper to loud.

I don't know what else to say about the issue other than please use the MANY tools available to you so that you can enjoy films the way you want to watch them. But please don't feel the need to attack an entire community of people that have dedicated their lives to this craft because you don't like how films are mixed. You are completely entitled to your opinion as is everyone... but it is just that, your opinion.

By the way... most of us get our hearing tested at least on a yearly basis. Surprisingly many of us have hearing that is far better than what our age would suggest.

Also a reminder that HEARING and LISTENING are two completely different disciplines. One is passive and the other is active. 

Drew
You are extremely generous. I will admit that my room is a setup nightmare. Unfortunately, it is a small house and our living room must also serve as a....living room.  The room is 30 x 15. The long wall is all glass and overlooks the river, so the room focuses on the view. Accordingly, the OLED monitor and speakers are arranged in front of the glass along the long wall and no room to move them away from the wall. Conversely, the listening position is only 12 feet away and the subwoofer is in a corner at the end of the wall. I know - audiophile heresy. 

I think the bottom line is I must rely on electronic tweaking. I think of Audessey as a beginning point (I ran two reference points), but the infinite options beyond that are mind blowing. It may well be that compensating for this setup nightmare is beyond the capabilities of Audessey. 

Yes the DX is low overall, so I crank the volume and get yelled at when the shooting starts. We also use captions a lot. I think this is a fairly common problem that seems to get worse the better the sound system. I have several systems, in other rooms, of lesser quality and have less of this problem.

If necessary I will have my dealer's tech come in and evaluate my settings.Unfortunately, he is 70 miles away. In the meantime, I very much appreciate your thoughts.

Dan

I have received some other posts that I believe have been removed before I could respond still complaining that this is spam, advertisement, etc...

If you look at when I joined this group it was in May 7, 2017. Boy I sure played the long game to start a simple advertising thread!!!??!?!

I just didn't feel I had anything really exciting to post regarding my experience with a speaker until now. I get the weekly recap on Friday from Audiogon and just click on the topics that interest me. Sometimes nothing grabs me and I just delete the email. Sometimes almost all of the threads interest me.

I enjoy the group and plan on continuing. I have also refrained from posting once or twice in the past because these things can become a HUGE time suck. I am more than happy to help those that I can via email. If you live in LA I would be happy to come by and help out as well. But I am usually SO swamped with work that any free time I do have I spend with my family. 

I knew when I started this particular thread there would be some flack - It's fine and I enjoy the discussion. I don't enjoy insults to me or those I work with for well over 25 years in this industry. 

Thank you to all here who are interested in discussing, debating without resorting to ignorant attacks.

Best,
Drew

drewde,

I have salivated over Wisdom Audio for years. Decades actually. The closest I came were some BG Radia 520dx made by Bohlender Graebener at the turn of the millennia. BG manufactured the planar units for Wisdom, started by Graebener when he left BG. Unfortunately BG did not survive the death of Bohlender. Wisdom carries on the tradition and elevates it.

That you have experienced Meridian 8000’s and moved on says something about your point of reference. Meridian is where I personally went following BG. I am now dabbling w/Thiel, but would leave them all for Wisdom. If I could afford it! 
You ask about amplification. Unless something has changed, the Wisdom universe is similar to Meridian. It is all intended to work together as a system. Their speakers are all active - in the sense that there is no internal passive crossover. They require a preamp/processor/active DSP crossover unit and are bi or tri amped depending on the model. Although you can probably substitute your own power amplification stage. I would strongly suggest the Hypex of Purify modules based D class multichannel amplifiers. You’re going to need a lot of channels of amplification and these do it not only efficiently but with best specs.

The inwall or on wall nature is I believe their strongest attribute. Especially as it goes for movies. I find large in room speakers - which to provide the best sound must necessarily be out in the room- to be very distracting.

They are a complex system and not unlike Meridian require a good and experienced dealer/installer to get the best result. Although with your background along with support from Wisdom, and plenty of $, you should experience Nirvana.

Good luck.