Finally found THE SPEAKER!!!

I think this may very well be the post I have enjoyed the most to date.
Thank you, sir!

Take a look at VTV or Apollon for US based makers of multichannel Hypex or Purifi based amps. You could have them customize exactly what you want - 500 watts for bass, 250 or 125 for tweeter sections, etc. But you’re probably gonna need to use Wisdom’s SC2 and/or SC3 preamp/crossover which are proprietary and equalized for the speakers.

@dukeofdoowop
I have too have a less than stellar setup for audio! It is what it is!

Well if the DX is low overall, I would simply start by raising the center channel around 3dB. This should make an immediate improvement. If you add some mild compression you might find things falling into a much more comfortable place for you and others.

I don't know for sure, but it is possible that if we adjust the center channel level manually (within the preamp) it might turn off Audyssey. Hmm.

According to the manual, you should be able to see on the front panel if the DYNAMIC EQ and DYNAMIC VOL are lit up - hence engaged.

You should be able to adjust these settings directly from your remote. I couldn't find a way to attach photos so if you look on your remote the #9 key will have DYN EQ/VOL  above it. By pressing this it will change the settings accordingly:
1.DYNAMIC EQ: OFF
   DYNAMIC VOL: OFF

2. Dynamic EQ: ON
    Dynamic Vol: Heavy (most compression)

3. Dynamic EQ: ON
    Dynamic Vol: Medium

4. Dynamic EQ: ON
    Dynamic Vol: Light (least amount of compression)

5 Dynamic EQ: ON
   Dynamic Vol:  OFF

This should easily and quickly adjust these setting from your remote without having to dig deep into the menu settings and try a setting that might help you.

The #8 on your remote will get you directly to the channel level settings. There you should be able to scroll down to the Center channel and hit select it and bump it up 3dB. 

My only concern with this adjustment is whether it will disable you Audyssey calibration or not. Hopefully not, but I can't say for sure as I am not familiar with this preamp I couldn't find the info in the manual as to what it might do.

As for you speaker setup in a room 30x15 I guessed 10' heigh for ceiling and doing a quick look using REW software. (https://www.roomeqwizard.com)
Your one subwoofer in the corner is actually a reasonable spot based on your room dimensions and your listening position. One sub is actually always difficult to get the smoothest curves and it shows you will have significant bumps at 37.7Hz, 52.9Hz 67.5Hz, but assuming you using the Audyssey crossover at 80Hz the dip I see at 107 Hz shouldn't be a problem. Audyssey should have made the appropriate EQ adjustments to tamp down the bumps.

Of course the best instrument we have is our ears! These tools help us get a good idea of what is going on, but listening is the ultimate test!

Let me know if this helps.

Like I said - I would definitely tweak the system you have before feeling the need to buy new speakers!

@jayh  

Thank you!

@drewde --

Great thread and -initiation. I must say that I cherish your insights and where you come from, not least also in regards to your extensive background in the movie sound mix industry, and how I believe this to relate to my own approach and preference with sound reproduction in a domestic setting. A lot to process for sure in what has unspooled in the posts so far, so this, as an outset at least, will be a condensed or fragmented contribution of mine. 

I've heard of (but never actually heard) the Wisdom Audio speakers that you've come across with their, per your take, favorable ability to bridge the "nuance and delicacy vs. dynamics and punch" chasm expressed by you. To many an audiophile I'm guessing this is not a dichotomy at all, being the latter part of the "equation" (i.e.: dynamics and punch, certainly as called for with the more uninhibited home movie sound reproduction) isn't that important to them:

"There's no way I would subject a good pair of speakers designed to reveal separate instruments in an ensemble or do justice to a folksinger plus guitars, banjo, string bass, and so on." No offense, but this in a nutshell expresses my frustration over the many years of listening to loudspeakers. Why not have a speaker that can deliver everything? Every single speaker that I have heard in the past that supposedly were intended to deliver the nuance of an ensemble, etc... well they couldn't even play at a level that remotely came close to what an orchestra can reproduce in those moments I wanted to listen to them, let alone playback rock, country and forget about film.

Completely agree with your response. My 2.2 channel set-up is one to take duties of both music (HDD-based and Tidal Hi-fi) and movie playback (Blu-ray's/UHD's) - sans surrounds and center channel, that is, and this is because it's first and foremost and music system through-and-through and dialed in as such, though very closely followed as a HT ditto. The great thing in this specific situation is that one doesn't exclude the other, meaning its qualities into music reproduction complements the sound I'm looking for with movies as well, and that's going by references of live venues (acoustic as well as amplified) and cinematically more akin to IMAX theatres than regular cinemas. This is realized with main speakers that are 2-way pro cinema speakers from Electro-Voice with a horn MF/HF and dual 15" woofer/mids, and two subs that are 15"-loaded tapped horns (20 cf. volume a piece). This may seem brute at first in a home setting, and it is or certainly can be, but the "secret sauce" that makes it a delicate and nuanced performer to boot is careful implementation and a fully active configuration. Active really makes it more resolved, transparent and less signature sounding - a win-win, if you ask me - and ample displacement and headroom translates sonically into ease and a visceral quality rarely if ever heard with smaller and lower efficiency speakers. Where I've sacrificed a bit with movie playback is giving up on the 10-20Hz range, which may seem preposterous to some, but given select movie titles (and there are not few of them) and very potent sub set-ups with huge displacement and amp power this very low octave can produce shudder effects and pressurization that can be very much felt. Tuning a sub set-up that low however, subjectively at least, takes away some of liveliness and impact of the central bass region, which is enormously important for music as well (hence this being a music set-up predominantly). Still, reproduction down to 20-25Hz at full click is no slouch by any stretch of the imagination. 

The dynamic range of movies is something I cherish wholeheartedly, and I find it to be an important test for one's set-up also in regard to music playback. I'm dialing in the ref. volume with dialogue and where it sounds naturally present, and the rest of the sound spectrum simply revolves around that in a way that makes a movie breath sonically - be it quieter titles or more action laden ones. With Mr. Nolan's latest 'Tenet' offering that's truly LOUD when the action kicks in, and in my listening space boarders "saturation" levels throughout the movie at ref. (per dialogue) volume. I adore Nolan's very conscious approach to sound mixing hearing it really take off as such from 'The Dark Knight' and onwards, and while my adoration includes 'Tenet' it's at the brink I find in its sheer loudness that's more suitably compatible with bigger spacings; at the digital IMAX theatre I saw it the first time around the sound level span seemed to benefit a bit from the large auditorium. At the other dynamic range scale with have most of Disney's home video Blu-ray and UHD releases these last years that are mixed with low ref. volume, timid dynamics and weak bass response - a travesty, really. Any insights on why they've been going this route almost consistently for years now? It may keep soundbars from blowing up, but it sure as h... is an unfortunate benchmark for those of us who care much more about proper dynamic swings, overall presence of presentation and LF prowess. 

Uninhibited dynamics are utterly important with music and not least movies. I own Criterion's Blu-ray of the David Fincher's 'The Game,' and it sports a near field and theatrical mix. I prefer the latter as the more expansive mix that breathes more naturally to me, and therefore I'm happy that they left it there for us to savor in addition to the near field mix. I hope we won't see diminishment with regard to dynamic range to cater, if you would, to the lowest denominator, but will at least uphold the theatrical mix- if nothing else as an option. 

@snbeal

Thank you for your input. Yes I loved the Meridians. Beautiful speakers! I too "dabbled" with Thiel back in the day so not as much recently. I also enjoyed some Revel speakers for a bit too.

To get that level of sound that doesn't need to take up floor space really won my wife over! Which of course is a huge win for me!!!

You are right about needing processor with an active crossover and also needing a lot of amps with a lot of power.

Do you have any recommendations for amps using the Hypex modules?

Trinnov is definitely on the short list of processors as is StormAudio. For a while Datasat was going to be it, but...

Thank you for your thoughtful responses!!! Much appreciated!

Drew

@mijostyn 
I am sorry I missed your post earlier! 

Love all of your advice! I am seriously considering the Trinnov. It really is the state of the art. I have also been looking into StormAudio as well. Datasat used to be king a few years ago and is still fantastic, but since I am buying today I would say Trinnov vs. StormAudio is my main two choices.

I am definitely going to need subwoofers. What I heard a the Wisdom theater was their STS subs and I felt they kept up quite well with the transient response of the planar magnetics.

My dealer is not as much of a fan of the Wisdom speakers and is pushing for JL Fathom. I need to do some more hands on experimentation to hone in on the best sub for my needs.

Best,
Drew

@phusis  I whole heartily agree with your post! I have also argued for years now that BOTH tracks should be present on the Bluray / UHD disc. We should optimize a lower reference level mix for those that prefer it to the more dynamic Theatrical mix. But we should also 100% absolutely keep the original mix intact for those of us who do want that experience!

I can't say for sure what is happening with the Disney tracks, but I do know that they now require a home theater mix that is suitable for streaming due to their new platform. All of the streaming formats require a compressed track. Not nearly as compressed as broadcast standards, but still significantly compressed compared to a theatrical mix.

Something I came to find out a few years back was that MANY times someone else other than the original sound supervisor and re-recording mixers would make the compressed home near field mix.

I encountered this myself accidentally when the film editor asked me to stop by the near field mix that was happening without any of us there to supervise. I stopped by and was shocked at what was happening. People that were not involved with the original creation of the soundtrack were making creative decisions based on their own opinion!

There was an opening scene that involved a Huey helicopter and a character yelling at his platoon. I mentioned TWICE to the director that the DX was being obscured by the Music and SFX and we should raise or lower one or the other. The first time he said - "Duly noted." The second time I knew I had crossed the line when he told me. "I am ok with him being obscured here - the audience gets his intention by his attitude and energy. The actual words are not important in this case. I also hope this is the last time I have to tell you this." Not to mention names, but this director is not a feeble man and can be quite intimidating. We became friends and always joked about that little exchange.

Anyway - what I heard during the near field mix was someone from the studio complaining that they could hear the DX for this very scene. They told the mixer to lower the SFX so they could clearly hear the DX. I said "STOP! What are you doing??!" They explained and I said I nearly lost my life on this very line of DX during the final mix - do you have the director's permission to be making creative changes? If so please proceed, but this is NOT his vision. I pulled out my cell phone to call the director to make sure this was indeed ok and immediately the studio rep said. "No I don't have permission." Then he went on to say - "Well I just think movies are mixed too loud over all."

I then called the Oscar winning mixers that mixed this film and asked them how they would like to proceed with the near field mix and passed that information on to I and the mixer handling the near field and we undid a fair bit of work that had been done.

The studio rep had a lot of technical setup specifications, but when it came to setting a reference level for a mix... he would find the loudest part of the film and adjust it to where he likes to listen. Then he wanted to adjust the entire track to compensate for this. Ultimately compressing the hell out of the track by raising all of the quiet scenes so they could now be heard. I listened to one of these mixes and I guess if i was watching an action film at my grandmas house while baby sitting... it would be great! If I was watching it and wanted any of the theatrical movie going experience, well that was out the window and I might as well rewatch an episode of Murder She Wrote for something a little more dynamic!!!

After that experience I found out that there were many little shops doing home mixes for studios by people that had no knowledge of how or why something was mixed they way it was during the final mix. Besides changing levels, they would often re-pan information to surrounds even add new SFX they liked better. It was the wild west! Now days we push to make sure the same team that creates the final mix stays on to create the near field mix.

Again.... I ramble on and on and on....

Thanks again for your post!!!

Very interesting thread!

enthusiasm is contagious....

My best to OP and to all....

@drewde you probably know my neighbor, Chris Flick - he’s a sound editor / mixer as well who constantly works at Skywalker Ranch. Congrats on your system! Hope the install goes / went well! 
Cheers,
Evan

So pleased you are happy.  That is what this hobby is all about.

Cheers!

Drewde, your subs have to be configured as a linear array or they will not project power like your line source speakers. You  can position individual subwoofers against the front wall on the floor under the screen at intervals of 4 feet or so. The higher you cross over the closer the subs have to be. 4 feet is perfectly adequate for crosses up to 100 Hz. The subwoofers will be function acoustically as one big driver all the way down to 1 Hz and project power like a line source. You can do the same thing with two towers but they have to be as high as your ceiling, and they take up vertical space possibly interfering with the screen. I do not like screens in front of speakers. If you look at my system page you will get the idea. If you want to lean more about subwoofers feel free to message me. I have been using line source speakers since 1980.
As far as processors go I would go with the Trinnov over StormAudio. I think their Room control is better. I am strictly two channel so I would go with the Amethyst but they have theater processors up to 32 channels. It is interesting that both companies are French. How you use the room control is different for theater than 2 channel. Some people never actually sit in a specific spot to listen, music is for the background only. If you do sit in the listening position and listen seriously you can usually store a profile for strict two channel use and switch back and forth. 

Drew

In case you missed it (which I doubt) here is an old discussion of passive vs active speakers.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/any-thoughts-on-passive-v-active-speakers

It seems to me the Wisdom system is a hybrid system that addresses many of the stated concerns about flexibility in upgrading. My two cents; you have done extensive listening and research, have a very discerning ear and unusual expertise. You were so blown away by this system that you started this thread. I once played in an orchestra backing up the great Raphael Mendez. After an excellent rehearsal he said "Perfect! Don't play it any better than that tonight." Buy the system that blew you away. Don't make it better.

Thank you for your ideas in tweaking my system. I have tried them and definitely feel you have started me down the right road. The rest will be trial and error. My subwoofer is set at 80hz per Mike Kelly's recommendation. (When you call Aerial for advice, Mike answers.) That should supersede any automatic Audessey settings. Given my issues and my 3.1 setup, do you recommend using Dolby or some other proprietary setting?

Thanks for a very thought provoking thread.

Dan

@dukeofdoowop  I have not read the thread you have shared, but I will head that way after this post. I am fairly familiar with the pros and cons of active vs passive speakers and the pros and cons. 

I would agree that Audessey can pretty easily over do things trying to make it better and in turn make things worse. When we calibrate our dub stages we don't use any auto calibration and do each speaker one at a time. It takes a bit, but the results can't be beat.

Well when mixing in an "immersive" format Dolby Atmos is the format of choice. Everything else gets scaled down from that format. That is including DTS. In Hollywood I am not aware of anyone who mixes in the DTS format... I could be wrong, but I have never heard of it being done.

Dolby has been such a leader in the professional audio community that it is still the benchmark. A Dolby engineer is present during the print master part of the process. They are are literally there with us on the dub stage monitoring the process to make sure all is as it should be.

That being said what you listen to in your own home is up to you. If you find the DTS format works better in your home and you like that better, by all means go for it!

The difference between the DTS and Atmos in a home situation is much more limited in that we are usually not talking about the same number of speakers as are used in a large venue theater / professional dub stage.

You can usually put your receiver on Auto and it will pick the correct format to be used based on the input signal it receives.

When we go to a premiere (in the old days before Covid) and have the ability to pick what format we will present.... I always pick Dolby Atmos if that helps.

Best,
Drew

@drewde
You asked about suggested amps. VTV or Apollon are two manufacturers who can customize exactly what configurations you want and at economical prices - particularly given the number of channels you’re going to require!

I must also correct my earlier post about the history of Wisdom. I had my two originators reversed. Contrary to (my) rumors of his death, Mr Bohlender is very much alive. It was Mr Graebener’s death that resulted in the dissolution/sale of BG Radia. My apologies to Mr Bohlender. My sympathies with friends/family of Mr Graebener.

BTW, Drew, you may be interested in the fact that the original BG Radia company (from which Wisdom spun off) was bought by Christie - primarily for the IP and planar driver technology. As you know, Christie is a major movie theater display/speaker company.

My latest video on the DIY HiFi Life Channel covers the VTV Purifi Amplifier. Stay tuned for my next video where I show how to upgrade this amp as well. Like and Subscribe is always appreciated.
https://youtu.be/mBj8EjHXBJE

@audiocaseevan 

Sorry for my delayed response. I know Chris mostly by reputation. However we have never worked together. I know many of the Skywalker group. It's a very small town when it comes to the sound world!

Best!

@snbeall 
I had read about where Wisdom Audio came from when I first started doing my online research and read about BG Radia. I did not know that Christie bought them. That is interesting. Do you know if they have done anything with the technology??

One of the big things going on right now is trying to use Micro LED panels in a Theatrical format and reproduce the sound properly. Traditionally it is a perforated projection screen with speakers behind the screen (as we all know) - but the Micro LED which look pretty amazing I must say... need a new approach. Meyers seems to be the first to launch a workable solution where they are aiming the speakers at the screen in order to reflect the sound back at the audience.

Netflix has just installed a system with Sony Crystal LED. The Sony screen I have seen in person and it is amazing! I have not heard the Meyer's solution myself but my friend Will Files has and he was very impressed. I hope to demo the system for myself soon.

Best!
Drew

@mijostyn   

I am really looking forward to 2 channel listening as well. Not just background listening, but sit back and really soak it in! Love that!

In fact... I would venture to say I will do more music listening than movie watching overall! I do enough of that every day at work!!!!

I need a way to audition the Trinnov vs. StormAudio. I do believe the Trinnov does have superior room tuning software... But I have not heard both systems side by side. My dealer (of course biased) is a fan of the Storm system.  It is interesting that they are both French companies....??? Hmmm....

The processor is definitely my next big decision. I will let you know what I find out as well.

Thank you for your input! Much appreciated!

Best,
Drew

Agon is sniper city.

@drewde
Speaking of perforated screens and speakers behind, what screen do you plan to use so as not to ruin the sound of the Wisdoms? Do you know what Wisdom was using in their demo theater?

@snbeall  I have not gotten that far yet. We are living in the house during the remodel so we are in one half of the house for phase #1 while the other half is being worked on (down to the studs remodel). Then we move to the finished side of the home for phase #2 which will deal with the Wisdom setup with screen....

I am not sure what screen Wisdom was/is using in their theater. I know they did a fair bit of research on the subject looking for a "transparent" screen, but I don't remember what they ended up installing. I will need to find out! Still need to pick a projector as well!

Just a heads up.   the new Wisdom Audio Website has launched.

@wweiss: “the time I heard Brothers in Arms through a pair of Apogees in the 80's was a religious experience I have never forgotten.”

“Brothers In Arms” was my go-to auditioning CD when I was looking for components. In particular, the track “Your Latest Trick” seemed to have it all: solo trumpet, crisp high hat and ride cymbal, a point where the bass kicks in and Mark Knopfler’s clear, deepish vocals. It kind of challenged everything I was looking for. 

This is a very good thread. Thanks for your efforts, Drew, and others!

I am fortunate and happy to have my primary two-channel system separate from the TV room, or home theater downstairs. For me, that is a must. I really like seeing the Rocky Mountains and the Continental Divide directly behind my loudspeakers through my living/listening room windows. Having a theater in that room would be tough/inappropriate.

As for Class D amplification I think you are looking in the right direction. For two channel I've used tubes (rarely), but Class AB mostly up until I picked us a W4S STI-1000 integrated (claimed 560/1120w). You cannot hear anything out of the speaker when the system is on with no music input. The pre-amp and amp sections are stone-dead quiet, and clean and precise, with bass authority as well.

I run the STI-1000 with a pair of (used-to-me) Raidho D2 small floorstanders. Unless I had a lot more money these are my 'holy grail' of musical reproduction speakers for two channel. Scratch home theater for these; loudest peaks are only to the mid 90s, but plenty for me for musical listening, and they reproduce tight bass flat to almost 30Hz within limits.

(If I need it louder I'll high-pass D2s and add a sealed sub. I'll also mention that the STI-1000 may be considered neutral to lean, but it pairs very well with the Raidhos as they are more warm than lean; I've tried other power amps but keep going back to the the STI-1000's power section as well as the preamp, looping in the DSP unit.)

I feel room correction for bass response is a must if you ever want to hear how nice your speakers can sound (I still do not know anyone who has that dead-perfect listening space with zero corrections). The DSPeaker Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core, a DSP based room-correction and equalizer, has transformed a good system into one of even greater clarity and detail while establishing near pitch-perfect bass from 30-200 Hz.

If an avid audiophile hears the A/B with his/her room corrected for bass you'll never go back to the uneven bass most rooms provide. it was a night and day revelation, easily discernible to anyone with ears.


Thanks for all of the theater/movie information! I'm reading and digesting it all.

Some threads give me a very eerie feeling that it's the owner/sales guy for some brand pretending to be a extremely happy customer!! It is prevalent in many forums these days.

When we dont have clear proof it is not wise to accuse people...

 It is an audio thread, and being an enthusiast myself i will not be glad to be accused... Do you?

@mahgister I am not making an accusation without proof. I'm just speaking about this eerie feeling i get sometimes. For what its worth, it was deduced (with proof) a couple of years ago on either audioholics or stevehoffman that one very enthusiastic happy customer was indeed a owner/sales guy. For your amusement, I'll link that thread when i find it as It gets very funny lol. Other times, we oughta just live with these eerie feelings, i suppose!

So much for your "eerie feelings" but what did you do now for the feeling of the OP reading you?

My own " eerie feeling" is your post is an injust accusation by association....

Sorry ....

One of us is wrong, then the best way is muting ourself....And not risking to hurt feeling...

I apologize to you for my post....But......

@deep_333 

I get your concern, but I have responded to this question enough I believe.

I technically am NOT yet an owner as it will still be a few months before I have the speakers installed in phase 2 of our remodel.

I am not sure what else I can tell you except that I made my original post out of my enthusiasm for the love of "sound."

I very much look forward to giving further impressions once I finally have these speakers installed.

Best,
Drew

@mahgister 
Thank you for your support! One of you is right, and in this case it happens to be you!

I will continue to express my thoughts and share my experience for those interested. I very much appreciate the support and experiences of those who have shared thoughts on some of my questions.

Best,
Drew

@musicaddict 

Wow! I would love to have that setup! Especially with the Rocky Mountains in the background for stereo listening!!! Doesn't get much better than that!

I would love to have a dedicated theater room! That would be ideal, but...

I have not listened to the Raidho D2 speakers. I would like to listen to them. Do find them to be laid back, more forward sounding or neutral?? 

What do you use for your home theater setup?

I completely agree with you about room calibration. While it can't completely resolve poor room acoustic design, it can definitely make a huge improvement! I have heard the difference and am sold. I have also heard some "auto correction" that did more harm than good. So it is always good to start with room treatment when possible, but that is obvious to anyone on this site.

Sounds like a great system for music listening. 

Best,
Drew

Thank you. I am lucky (and silently thank the architect from the 80s…)

The Raidho D2 has been described more as a ‘bottom up’ speaker, probably in part due to to a bass hump 80-160 or so. Once it is ameliorated (DSP) the pure clarity and liquidity and clarity if even greater. I think between neutral and laid back is fair. (Sometimes a fast, tight, deep bass confuses the idea of yin and yang.) The two 4.5” mid/bass drivers are fast and with rear port loading, very deep. Best is the sealed ribbon tweeter. The treble clarity of off the charts and it is a bit forgiving as it has never ‘hurt me’, still providing incredible detail.

No kidding here (ask my poor wife), I owned wonderful Dynaudio Sapphires with the (fairly) acclaimed Esotar II tweeter (and it’s possibly my favorite conventional dome tweeter, soft of course) but the D2s have revealed subtle new musical information, I had never previously heard, in almost every CD I own.

Video stuff is modest. In the 14x20 TV room we use Elac Debut 2.0 speakers, F5.2/C5.2/B5.2 , and an REL Storm III sub, Onkyo AV receiver, Panasonic BluRay/DVD and a smallish Vizio 55” monitor.

The 12 x 22 basement theater exists, but is not sorted for speakers. It is a JVC DLA-RS400 projector onto a 150” (1.78) fixed wall screen, a Denon AVR, and Panasonic BluRay. Speakers:  NHT old 2.5i floor-standers, dual 1.5s center, and NHT bi-polar wall surrounds. OR:  Martin Logan SL3 electrostatics with a ML Cinema center channel. I have two SVS SB-2000s (and one SB-3000) all just acquired. I originally figured using two SB-2000s for theater. Now I’m unsure of that.

Correction certainly can be a blessing or a curse depending on how it is applied. For me, and I don’t want to be a salesperson, but if my DSP unit quit I’d spend 3-5X its cost to replace it, if I had to. Nothing, aside from the D2s has made such a huge, extremely audible improvement in music in my system. I’d beg non-believers to try it before dismissing it…

I’ll be hanging around to hear future reports on the Wisdom install. Best!