Finally found THE SPEAKER!!!

@mahgister 
Thank you for your support! One of you is right, and in this case it happens to be you!

I will continue to express my thoughts and share my experience for those interested. I very much appreciate the support and experiences of those who have shared thoughts on some of my questions.

Best,
Drew

I had not planned on sharing my life, but... we are in the middle of a massive remodel of our home. We have been planning and saving for a long time. We unfortunately do NOT have a dedicated theater, but do a have a large family room that will serve as our theater and music listening area... as well as the... um family room.

Anyway. I have not yet installed the Wisdom Audio speakers in the room, but they will absolutely be the speakers I will use! I have made a few trips to Wisdom Audio now to audition and chose what will be the best fit for my needs and budget.

Due to my position and connections in my work I have been offered many other speakers at cost or for free! I am choosing to buy these Wisdom speakers because they are that good. 

Soix -

In my design room I am using JBL 708 series speakers that have been tuned to match the sound characteristic of the main speakers on the dub stages in Hollywood. All of us in the business are very accustomed to the "JBL sound." It is what it is. When we are editing and designing our sound - we want to know how it will sound on the dub stage where the director will hear the film. Keep in mind we have maybe 75 plus editing rooms so economy is also a key player. Also with that many rooms, we are dealing with relatively small rooms so are in a "near field" situation. There is still a translation issue due to how the big / main theater speakers react vs. the quicker transient response of small diaphragm speakers. Especially when it comes to the compression driver/horns that tend to "sing" around the 2k range in the big speakers. 

That being said, when the score is recorded and mastered - it is always with a more HiFi type of speaker. Something we would want in our home to listen to music. It is very common to see the big B&W in the scoring room. ATC is another common one used.

Soix - Headphones. For work I have been using BT 990, 770 etc... for a while. The last couple of years I have been helping Sony develop some technology for editing/mixing with headphones which was recently announced:

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/behind-screen/virtual-ces-sony-highlights-new-headphone-tech-for-r...

I am currently beta testing new headphones for Sony that will give the best experience with this new technology. The headphones are just stereo headphones.

My personal headphones are Focal Utopias.

Contuzzi -
"Cool advertisement!"

HA! Totally understand your statement. I am not paid by Wisdom Audio, just a sound nerd who is excited by my experience. I have never posted here before, but have been reading for years.

mwatsme - I have listened to all of the speakers you mentioned except for the GoldenEar SuperSat. I did audition the Golden Ear Triton series. Honestly none of these speakers did what I was looking for in terms of fidelity and dynamics.

I think you are confusing ribbon speakers with the planar magnetics used in the Wisdom Audio speakers. You need to move a lot of air to get dynamics. They look similar but are MILES apart.

Again - my hesitation in making the trip to Wisdom in the first place was based on my past experience with speakers that you mentioned. I too didn't understand the difference between the technology and only made the trip because the local dealer I am working with told me I should make the trip as it might be exactly the speaker I am looking for. He was right. 

audioman58 - Interesting... That worries me a bit for sure. I have heard them playing louder than is safe for hearing safety. Because they don't distort and don't have speaker compression at high levels like we/I am used to with traditional drivers I found it easy to keep cranking them up to a dangerous level and not even know it was that loud until I used my sound meter on my phone. Crazy!

How much power was your amp capable of outputting. I believe the planar drivers stay at a 4 Ohm resistance across all frequencies which should make them amp friendly. 

I will need to ask my dealer if they have reliability issues that he is aware of. I will let you know what I find out. Thanks for the heads up!!!

varchard - This is not SPAM. You are right I have not posted before. Never felt I had much to add. I can tell you this is DEFINITELY not spam and/or marketing.

Such hate coming from people on here. This is one of the reasons I never posted before.

I am sharing my personal experience with a group of what I thought were like minded audio people.

I was hesitant to post for just such reactions. I am more than happy to discuss my professional career as well as my give my professional opinions. They are just that. My opinions. If you are so upset by my posts feel free to stop reading them.

Thank you.

roxy54 - I had never even heard of these speakers before my dealer suggested I listen to them!

I am not sure why they don't do more advertising as well...??? I try to stay up to date on what is current in the market place as well - I love this stuff.

gone - Don't know what to tell you. Not marketing. Sorry my first posts had to be something I was excited to share with the community. 

Yes My travel was before the pandemic. Lost a friend to Covid.  A few other friends of mine lost family members as well. Please don't judge others so harshly as you never know the bag of rocks we are all carrying.

I have been busy with work, life, family and helping take care of my now elderly parents. I came across this site a while back and get the weekly posts sent to my email and click on the topics that interest me. I didn't post earlier as I was really looking for other components and just didn't have the time.

I still am looking other speaker options for the whole house system, smaller TV rooms, amplifiers - probably need class-d to drive the planar magnetics, Trying to figure out the best surround processor for the main room, etc...

Anyways... glad to answer any questions if you have them. 

Best,
Andrew

zm - I do not know Frank. I know quite a few people who worked up at Fantasy studios and they speak fondly of those times. I will ask a few of them if they know him. Thanks for asking.

I am based in LA / Hollywood, but I do work with my friends at Skywalker on a fairly regular basis.

mlsstl - I agree with you about the website. Again... these speakers were recommended to my by the person helping me put together a home automation system, A/V system, etc... I did the online research as well and honestly was underwhelmed. I read about the technology and really thought it sounded like snake oil. But I really trust the opinion of my local dealer and made the trip.

It was a quick fly in at night (before covid hit) then spent the next day at the factory listening and flew back that night.

I have not posted until now because I honestly have not had much free time. In my business the work is crazy busy and my crew and I were very fortunate to have work during the pandemic to keep us busy. We worked from home except for the mixing of the films where strict covid protocols were in place.

How busy could I have been you might ask - now that I know my posts are being scrutinized... Well I postponed my honeymoon FIVE times!! A year later than expected due to fluctuating work schedules. If you don't work in the film business this might be hard for you to understand, but that is deal.

What would you all suggest for amplifiers? I am looking for 500 w/ch @4 Ohms. Since I am planning on 7.2.4 atmos setup I will need a fair bit of amplification seeing as most of the speakers will be bi-amped. 

With that I am leaning towards class-d.

Any input / experience would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you!

In the past the speakers my father and I have owned are:

Meridian DSP 8000
B&W 702
B&W 802
Klipschorn 1975 vintage (not subtle but dynamic)
M&K satellite speakers circa 1980 (my first speakers for my room)
Macintosh - I forget exactly what these were called, but they had the midrange and tweeter mounted to the wall and the bass was a separate box. They sounded lovely.

Why so many speakers? Well we loved the hobby, my parents were/are fairly well off and they had a few homes to fill with different systems.

I am NOT that well off, but still love the hobby/addiction!!!

Oops!!! Didn't mean to hit send

One of the things I have noticed is theaters equipped with Dolby Atmos are moving away from single large diaphragm driver to multiple small drivers. There has always been an issue of comb filtering with this, but somehow they are able to minimize this problem and are getting the quicker transient response of a smaller speaker, but still able to move a lot of air.

The better dub stages have been upgrading the main speakers as well. We used to use 2 way speakers and still do in many rooms, but now the move is 4-way speakers that sound significantly better.

I have completely digressed away from my original post, but I am really enjoying the feedback.

whart - I am not at Pixar, but based out of one of the major studios in Hollywood. 75 rooms is counting all of the different editing, design, small QC rooms, etc. It is a guesstimate on my part, but realistic in my opinion.

You are exactly spot on with regards to the home theater vs. purist audio comparison. Trying to find speakers that could do it all was my goal.

I considered the Meyers Bluehorn speakers. Excellent speakers. However my tastes when I put my "purist audio" hat on is for something other than horn systems.

I feel like with what I have demoed with the Wisdom speakers I can be happy with them doing double duty and not feel like I am making a compromise.

I am not yet sure what amps I will use. Wisdom sells their own amps, but honestly I don't think I can afford them. I have been looking at the class-D amps from ATI. When I auditioned the speakers at the factory they used their own amps which are rated at 500w/ch @4Ohm. The ATI amps can deliver this as well and are more affordable. The other issue is of course that the particular series of Wisdom speaker I am considering needs bi-amplification. I am interested in the LINE source series, but they also make point source.

One of the things I have noticed in the film industry 

tvad -

I have heard the Monterey speakers (Excellent) but not the Eurekas. There are so many excellent sounding speakers it is overwhelming. I also really like the sound of the ATC speakers, but there they are not attractive for the family room!

I did not hear the Monterey in Burbank - I was at some event, can't remember. Didn't realize they were in Burbank. Sounds like a fun visit. I should stop by and take another listen!

@Tom8999

The Maggies share the same technology and have the same benefits.

The Wisdom I believe is a refinement on this tech and the direction I am heading. Part of my decision has been hearing a properly setup Dolby Atmos theater using the Wisdom Audio speakers. Again - this was after I heard them in stereo Music mode first.

Honestly - that is what did it for me. I knew that these speakers could actually deliver what I was looking for.

@dekay @tvad 

These were some other reviews I found in my research:

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/wisdom-audio-insight-p4i-wall-speaker-system

https://www.gramophone.com/Wisdom-Audio-Trip

https://www.audioholics.com/outdoor-speaker-reviews/wisdom-audio-sage-fl

https://www.residentialsystems.com/technology/wisdom-audios-ls4-line-source-loudspeaker

When I was up at the factory - they were doing a "dealer training" thing. Not exactly what it is all about, but they fly the dealers come out for a few days and train them on installations, room acoustics, etc... I don't know if all manufacturers do this as I am not in that part of the business. I met a couple of the dealers during a lunch break which I jumped in on for the free food! It was actually really interesting to meet and talk with some of these folks. They were so excited about sound just like me. It was refreshing to see this from my point of view. As an audio professional I always wonder if anyone else cares as much about this stuff as we do. We joke about it all time while on the dub stage that we are worried about the smallest of details - and then someone will say "It will sound great on my kids iPad. We all laugh and also cringe since we know this is the case with so many viewers.

Anyway - I had to split my time between the Theater they have setup and the stereo listening room depending on what the dealers in training had scheduled. This was not obviously the ideal time to be up on the tour for me, but it also was the only time that fit into my work schedule.

My point as I ramble on here.... One of my listening times in the stereo room they went through the line of speakers from the bottom to the top as they were playing them for the dealers. I got to hear the "lower" end stuff which is still expensive. Then again when I can walk into a Best Buy and purchase B&W 800 diamond series...

My suggestion to friends that start shopping for speakers is to always hear what "the best" thing is a dealer, speaker co, etc... have to offer. Try to listen what is available today with current technology. Then move down the lineup to find the sweet spot where budget and expectations meet. You can always say I only have this much - which most all of us have. Yes, my limit might more than you are willing to spend, but I know many that spend significantly more than I could even imagine. There is a point of diminishing returns. That is the line where only you can decide what is good enough.

Switching to TV since that is easier to talk about than audio for comparison... Some people are not bothered by grey looking blacks on a lower end LCD, while others can't stand it and need FALD backlighting or better yet OLED. I would fall in the FALD/OLED category. It will always bug me to see grey blacks and know it should look better. I have experience this with my own family... once they were shown what it could look like and should look like, they were no longer satisfied with the lesser quality display system.

They don't post prices so I only have prices from my local dealer for the items I am looking at using in my home.

I am looking at installing the speakers in wall so I ended up not getting a quote for the L75.

The Line 2 are 10k each
Probably use a Sage Point 3 for the center - 5k
Sage C38i for rear - 4.7k
STS sub - 11k

I wish there were more reviews by trusted / reputable magazines on the Wisdom speakers.

I am guessing on this but It feels to me that these speakers/systems are made for customers that want the best and don't necessarily do the type of homework many of us do. I am NOT rich but I am put a huge amount of our remodel $$ into the sound system since it is what I do for a living and my passion.

The rest of the home is going to be in ceiling speakers that are best bang for the buck!

Speaking of which... any suggestions on in ceiling speakers for whole house music. Party mode type of thing??

Focal? B&W? Polk??

Thank you!

@tvad HA!

Shhh... I haven't told my wife it will be that much yet! Actually we have been saving for the remodel for years and I had a certain amount to spend however I wanted for electronics AV. This remodel has been in planning and saving for well over 5 years. I have been fortunate to keep working during the pandemic so it has not hit me as much as so many others. I am thankful for that of course.

Yes it is a lot of money. This is my swan song, so I am going all out. Won't be playing feeding the addiction after this.

Audio is a very difficult thing to discuss. In fact when working with directors I usually ask them to give me an emotional road map of what they want to feel when and where. The I can construct an audio map to affect those emotions. My job is not to simply put a door knock where a door knock goes. It is to tell story with sound. That door knock can be lazy and slow, fast and panicked, fast and quiet, etc... each one of those tells a different emotion. The same goes for what backgrounds you hear or don't hear. When I work with the best directors they truly understand the power of sound and will ask for things like... give me something here that pushes those characters apart, or makes them feel more intimate, etc...

I love my job and I love what sound can do for movies. Hence my passion for how I listen to my work as well as others at home!

@tvad EXACTLY!!!

I use that example all the time! A scary movie ceases to be scary without the sound! And that is the more obvious ones. The subtle stuff that we do affects people just as much but isn't as in their face.

Sound is at least 50% of the movie going experience!!!

Best!

@almirante
You are entitled to your own opinions. It is a free country! These are my opinions. Just that.

@wweiss
I understand your feelings about that religious experience. I had that with listening to a pair of Focal Grande Utopias at my dealers shop. He also happens to be a guitar player and so he was listening to a bass solo when I walked in... Detailed, power, weight to each note. Not sure what it is that makes the "special sauce" when everything in a speaker works just right to give you that magical experience.

I have had that with a few speakers in my past. The thing for me now is the fact that I can actually get that with a speaker that is in the wall. In the past, to get the best from my speakers I had to get them at least 3' from the wall.

I get that everyone has their own opinions on stuff. That doesn't invalidate another's opinion. They are just that.

I had not posted before on this site because of this very belief. Most speaker arguments come down to how you the individual hear the world. how you think it should sound, and what you like to listen to. This last one is where I found problems. I wanted a speaker that didn't care what I was listening to or at what level I was listening to. Once I experienced that with a speaker - I felt it was time to share. I like to listen to classical, rock, EDM, female vocal, country and of course films!

An example of other peoples opinions. I used to read reviews of DVD / Bluray discs. Don't remember the site, but they would evaluate the quality of the video transfer as well as the audio. While I found the site helpful, it was also misguided from my point of view when it came to what they valued in regards to "quality" of the audio. Things like... did they have a lot of information in the surround speakers, good use of the subwoofer, etc... ??? Absurd! We put what is appropriate information into the surrounds, subwoofer, etc... to support the telling of the story and to convey the emotions of the scene. On top of that - we are delivering the director's vision of her/his film. But... the reviewer had their own opinion as to what was good or bad based on a personal belief. For them what made a good soundtrack was not what any of us in the professional audio community would see as important (and in fact we would often laugh at these very reviews) but to this reviewer that was key.

Anyway I digress as usual. 

My intent was to make people aware of my own journey and personal discovery. Like I stated before I have been looking into speakers for so long it was my weekend hobby. I would travel with a handful of CDs and a flash drive with my music demos to audition. That way I was always listening to the same source material no matter where I went. You get to know these tracks intimately.

I like what I have heard with the Wisdom Audio speakers. If you have not heard them well you owe it to yourself to go and listen to them. Who knows... you might like them too! If you don't. No problem. Just enjoy the ride!

@nordicnorm
Thank you. Yes I have been looking at that very option in particular with the Crown amps. I need a lot of power with multiple amps. If I was only doing stereo my amp choice would be much easier. It will be a lot of amps rack mounted and need to be concerned about thermal issues. Hence my thoughts on class-d. I am hoping the HiFi community has some experience with that type of amplification.

Thank you!

@french_fries
I hear your frustration and the films you gave as examples are action films. When we are mixing these films for Theatrical release we strive for dynamic range on purpose. We monitor the mixes in carefully calibrated dub stages with EQ and volume settings that are used industry wide.

You are one of the people who appears to not like dynamic range in your movie/TV viewing experience. I get that. But there are a LOT of people that do enjoy the power that sound can deliver to the movie going experience.

We actually do what is called a "near field mix" for home viewing with is a compressed version of this very thing. We use small near field speakers and monitor the mix at "lower" to "much lower" reference level depending on the studio, director, etc... What happens with a lower reference level is that the quieter scenes end up getting raised while the louder scenes stay the same. We are compressing the dynamic range from the bottom up in this case.

I am one who advocates for this as LONG as a version of the uncompressed version of the track is kept in tact. After all... There are those of us who want a Theatrical experience at home.

Certain studios and/or directors demand that the track stay in tact which means no compressed home version.

If the compressed version is still not to your liking most DVD/Bluray players as well as surround processors have built in compression algorithms that might help you with your situation.

You indicate that all that matters to you is dialogue, which I would agree that dialogue is king in the mix, but is not all that matters by a LARGE degree than I might also suggest raising your center channel by 3 to 4 dB or to your liking.

We as a filmmaking society actually work very hard to NOT make a mix painful and to not play everything too loud. Sure it happens, but more time and effort is put into delivering the director's vision of his/her film than you may be aware of during the editing and mixing of the soundtrack.

Dynamic range is not something new and in fact is something I look for in a speaker as I not only enjoy female vocalists, jazz, blues, etc... but films, classical music, rock, country, and the list goes on.

Classical music composers have utilized the power of dynamic range to convey emotion for hundreds of years!

I love classical music. I have played violin since I was in First grade and I am quite a bit older than that now.

As a musician I can also tell you that playing music at a lower level that what is intended will also change the emotion of said piece.

"There's no way I would subject a good pair of speakers designed to reveal separate instruments in an ensemble or do justice to a folksinger plus guitars, banjo, string bass, and so on."  No offense, but this in a nutshell expresses my frustration over the many years of listening to loudspeakers. Why not have a speaker that can deliver everything? Every single speaker that I have heard in the past that supposedly were intended to deliver the nuance of an ensemble, etc... well they couldn't even play at a level that remotely came close to what an orchestra can reproduce in those moments I wanted to listen to them, let alone playback rock, country and forget about film.

So this comes down to the personal preference of the buyer, viewer and my personal choice is not to buy a speaker that limits what I can play on it.

The Wisdom Audio speakers I have auditioned EXCEL at detail and nuance. Remember that what you are talking about is transient response time of a driver. The planar magnetic speakers deliver this in spades! A violin sounds like a violin without any harshness that one can get from so many domes, horns, etc... At least in my experience.

My first requirement was how does the speaker play music. Then I would proceed to films. When I finally found one that could do both at the peak of the game was I satisfied.

I've owned DYNAMIC speakers that could bang out rock, but I never liked them as HiFi. 

Thank you for your input and I hope my response is taken in the spirit in which it is given.

Thank you!

@dukeofdoowop
Hi Duke... I think I may have addressed some of your questions, but not directly so I will try to do that here.

When you say over modulated, do you mean "distorted" or just louder than what you think they should be? We use over modulated to mean distortion so I am wondering if you just mean levels. Based on the rest of your thread I am going to assume it refers to level.

Again - what you are describing is the "dynamic" range issue.

Here is how things play in a mix. Dialogue (DX) is king. It is the reference level for the track. We play DX at a comfortable level while we are mixing and everything is relative to that. One of the ways we can make a scene louder without having to kill the audience - (yes believe it or not, MANY of us try to do this with our mixes) is to let the music and/or SFX (sound effects) drown out the DX without having to resort to things just getting stupid loud. As a viewer you know that the car, plane, train, whatever is loud now because the DX is now drowned out by the SFX.

I know this is not what you are talking about, but just thought I would share. Now there is one director in particular who does tend to burry DX (dialogue) with music with EXTREME level. Many of us have complained about this in the industry but again it is the director's vision so be it.

A center channel absolutely should help with your issue. My previous suggestions of raising the center channel by a few dB and maybe engaging the DRC Dynamic Range Correction algorithms built in to most DVD players and/or receivers might help achieve the "version" of the film mix you enjoy more.

There are also film enthusiasts that go full blow Atmos home theater and want that Theatrical dynamic range that is absolutely part of the movie going experience.

I have SO many headphones, but my goto personal music listening are my Focal Utopias. These have weight, detail, depth, dimension etc.... But they don't have what a full range loudspeaker can deliver. It doesn't give me sound I can also feel.

As a violinist I also feel the music. To be honest I haven't played my violin for at least 8 years now... not sure why it just sort of became less and less of my life. Talking about it makes me want to open the case and see if my fingers can still do the dance! Anyway... playing in an orchestra you can absolutely FEEL the music in your body as well as just your ears. I guess it would be like just tasting with your tongue and not your smell - you are not using all of your senses to their fullest... in my opinion.

I have no problem with levels in my own home with regards to film playback and this is not playing things at reference level most of the time. I am not utilizing any compression, but I guess I am ok with a little more dynamic pop than some. HA!

Your iPad experience is simply this. Those limited range speakers are designed to favor the DX range of the audio frequency which if you prefer DX only/mostly will work in your favor. I on the other hand miss the power of the score, SFX that bring to the film experience. Many filmmakers recognize that SOUND if at least 50% of the movie going experience.

Does any of this help???

Again... nobody is right or wrong about their own personal preference(s).

Glad to discuss further but as usual I get lost in the weeds as I ramble on here.

@french_fries 

I get it. My favorite film is Citizen Kane. Transformers and Marvel films are not really my cup of tea either. But there are plenty of other dynamic films that are not stupid comic book stuff. 

I would put a stereo pair of Wisdom Audio speakers up against pretty much anything I have listened to. Again... the majority of my time at Wisdom was spent listening to just that. Stereo music of ALL types. If I could afford the LS4 models I would get them. Just amazing. The great thing about a speaker like these is that they play at lower levels with greater detail and presence than more traditional speakers. Just because they CAN go loud, doesn't mean you need to listen to them at that level. My evaluation of these speakers is on quality not "volume/loudness"

Enjoy!

@dukeofdoowop 

What are you using for your Home Theater setup? Speaker configuration 2.1, 3.1, 5.1, etc...

What speakers are you using now? You may have stated this earlier, but I don't recall.

What McIntosh preamp are you using.

Have you done any home theater calibration? At a minimum would be setting the correct delay compensation for each speaker and then a simple pink noise SPL cal. That should get you in the ballpark for sure.

The compression options many preamps provide are just that - compressors to address the needs of which you speak. These are not ideal, but might help reduce the loud peaks so you don't have to chase the volume for quiet DX scenes and then loud action sequences.

By raising the center channel you will also help give a boost to the DX (along with everything that is in the center channel) The center channel is the most utilized speaker for film mixes.

I would start with the basic calibration of the correct delay compensation and SPL level for each speaker. Then trying one of the compressors built into your preamp. Then if you feel the need for more DX separation bump up the center channel.

You should not have to buy all new speakers to get proper levels unless you have a severely mismatched center channel compared to your L/R mains???

If you are looking for new speakers, THEN you might want to put Wisdom Audio on your list of speakers to audition. They may fit your needs or maybe not, but if you haven't heard them you owe it to yourself to take a listen.

This was the intent of my post(s).

Let me know if I can help get your system better dialed in for you!

Best,
Drew

@dukeofdoowop
I have too have a less than stellar setup for audio! It is what it is!

Well if the DX is low overall, I would simply start by raising the center channel around 3dB. This should make an immediate improvement. If you add some mild compression you might find things falling into a much more comfortable place for you and others.

I don't know for sure, but it is possible that if we adjust the center channel level manually (within the preamp) it might turn off Audyssey. Hmm.

According to the manual, you should be able to see on the front panel if the DYNAMIC EQ and DYNAMIC VOL are lit up - hence engaged.

You should be able to adjust these settings directly from your remote. I couldn't find a way to attach photos so if you look on your remote the #9 key will have DYN EQ/VOL  above it. By pressing this it will change the settings accordingly:
1.DYNAMIC EQ: OFF
   DYNAMIC VOL: OFF

2. Dynamic EQ: ON
    Dynamic Vol: Heavy (most compression)

3. Dynamic EQ: ON
    Dynamic Vol: Medium

4. Dynamic EQ: ON
    Dynamic Vol: Light (least amount of compression)

5 Dynamic EQ: ON
   Dynamic Vol:  OFF

This should easily and quickly adjust these setting from your remote without having to dig deep into the menu settings and try a setting that might help you.

The #8 on your remote will get you directly to the channel level settings. There you should be able to scroll down to the Center channel and hit select it and bump it up 3dB. 

My only concern with this adjustment is whether it will disable you Audyssey calibration or not. Hopefully not, but I can't say for sure as I am not familiar with this preamp I couldn't find the info in the manual as to what it might do.

As for you speaker setup in a room 30x15 I guessed 10' heigh for ceiling and doing a quick look using REW software. (https://www.roomeqwizard.com)
Your one subwoofer in the corner is actually a reasonable spot based on your room dimensions and your listening position. One sub is actually always difficult to get the smoothest curves and it shows you will have significant bumps at 37.7Hz, 52.9Hz 67.5Hz, but assuming you using the Audyssey crossover at 80Hz the dip I see at 107 Hz shouldn't be a problem. Audyssey should have made the appropriate EQ adjustments to tamp down the bumps.

Of course the best instrument we have is our ears! These tools help us get a good idea of what is going on, but listening is the ultimate test!

Let me know if this helps.

Like I said - I would definitely tweak the system you have before feeling the need to buy new speakers!

I have received some other posts that I believe have been removed before I could respond still complaining that this is spam, advertisement, etc...

If you look at when I joined this group it was in May 7, 2017. Boy I sure played the long game to start a simple advertising thread!!!??!?!

I just didn't feel I had anything really exciting to post regarding my experience with a speaker until now. I get the weekly recap on Friday from Audiogon and just click on the topics that interest me. Sometimes nothing grabs me and I just delete the email. Sometimes almost all of the threads interest me.

I enjoy the group and plan on continuing. I have also refrained from posting once or twice in the past because these things can become a HUGE time suck. I am more than happy to help those that I can via email. If you live in LA I would be happy to come by and help out as well. But I am usually SO swamped with work that any free time I do have I spend with my family. 

I knew when I started this particular thread there would be some flack - It's fine and I enjoy the discussion. I don't enjoy insults to me or those I work with for well over 25 years in this industry. 

Thank you to all here who are interested in discussing, debating without resorting to ignorant attacks.

Best,
Drew

@ericsch Yes I am starting with the basics. Again you and others are complaining that they dynamic range of Theatrical Film mixes is too great for your liking. Period.

When the the film says "Directed by Ericsch" (or whatever your name is) then you can decide how much dynamic range you want in your film. It appears many of those complaining prefer the limited dynamic range imposed by Broadcast TV. I can tell you from personal experience when you play those tracks in a Theatrical environment - It sounds horrible.

Here are some great examples of Classical pieces that also have tremendous Dynamic range. 

Mahler Symphony 9 - Claudio Abbado/Berlin (Deutsches Gram.)
Stravinsky 'Rite of Spring,' - Valery Gergiev/Kirov (Philips)
Shostakovich 10 - Karajan/Berlin (DG)
Sibelius 5 - Vanska/Lahti (BIS)
Beethoven 9 - Vanska/Minnesota (BIS)
Arvo Part - Lamentate (ECM)
Benjamin Britten "War Requiem" - Rattle (EMI)
Verdi Requiem - Abbado (EMI)
Brahms "German Requiem" - Klemperer (EMI)
Bartok "Concerto for Orchestra" - Reiner (RCA)
Beethoven 5&7th symphs - Kleiber (DG)
Tchaikovsky 6th Symph - Pletnev (Virgin)

Sure they do not have DX as one person mentioned, but if listening on a properly calibrated system (usually just the basics will suffice) one should be able to hear the DX. If the loud scenes are too loud for your personal preferences then you need to utilize some of the MANY built in compressors available to you. NOT decide for the rest of the film going audience that things need to be set to your liking.

More than likely you don't even LIKE the movies that you are complaining about... just a guess, but it is usually the case in my past experience. Is there a film you really like that has this problem. Someone mentioned Lord Of The Rings. I did not work on that series but am friends with many of those that did. In my opinion they are great sounding tracks. My kids actually watch a lot of those over and over on a smaller system setup at home Just some old B&W CDM 7 in 5.1 I bought when I first got married. All I could afford at the time. My kids will be playing these films in the background all the time and we don't really have any issues with things getting out of control.

And nobody has suggested that anyone has any hearing issues.

When we are mixing these films do you honestly think we just say wow things are too loud and we can't hear any of the dialogue so oh well... Really???

Not every film will have big dynamic range issues. It is relative to the content of the film. Most of the times I hear this complaint with regards to action films. A film like  MEET JOE BLACK is not going to pop up as a film with too much dynamic range because the story doesn't require it. But if you are watching Saving Private Ryan, Apollo 13, Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World, etc... well then the story content does demand and benefits from having the ability to go from a whisper to loud.

I don't know what else to say about the issue other than please use the MANY tools available to you so that you can enjoy films the way you want to watch them. But please don't feel the need to attack an entire community of people that have dedicated their lives to this craft because you don't like how films are mixed. You are completely entitled to your opinion as is everyone... but it is just that, your opinion.

By the way... most of us get our hearing tested at least on a yearly basis. Surprisingly many of us have hearing that is far better than what our age would suggest.

Also a reminder that HEARING and LISTENING are two completely different disciplines. One is passive and the other is active. 

@invalid

Thank you for your response. I have never heard the Duetta Sigs. I bet they sound AWESOME!!! I am now a fan of the technology.

How do they hold up over time. This is still a concern of mine. I am so used the traditional speaker designs and how they hold up. Any thoughts on how this technology fares over time??

Thank you!

@dukeofdoowop 

DUDE!!! That is an awesome setup!!! Yes I get the upgrade bug part of your post. I think that is half the fun of this hobby.

I love the McIntosh gear. Always have been a huge fan.

One other question... what are the dimensions of your room? Standing waves are one of those nasty things that are hard to tone down.

I have used Audyssey room correction before and have had VERY mixed results. In on room it worked fantastic and another it really muddied up the sound and I found using the basic distance settings for delays and speaker level settings worked better. I think the problem lies more with my room and the software trying to correct for poor room treatment on my part. If it has to overcompensate too much with EQ I find it hurts rather than helps. AGAIN... my personal experience ONLY!!

That being said - the Audyssey has some very good compression settings for just your situation.

Would you say that overall you find the DX hard to hear with films in general?
Is the dynamic range of quiet to loud a separate issue or the main problem?

I don't have your Control Preamp so I found the manual online. PG 37 discusses the Dynamic Volume (dynamic EQ) settings. The Dynamic Volume should help you with the overly loud issues - it has 3 levels of compression depending on your likes.

BTW - I do like the Dynamic EQ. It is basically a loudness contour (Fletcher Munson Curve) setting. When you turn down your level the bass suffers more than the 3k - 4k range and need to be adjusted upward a fair bit... I forget how much but roughly 10dB to sound equal in volume. What does this mean. When you are listening back to at a lower level it will adjust those frequencies to keep the overall tonal balance the same. It should still sound rich and full even at lower levels.

Page 30 of the manual discusses some other surround settings your preamp has. DRC is one of them which will work with the Dolby True HD tracks. It also has a D.Comp setting as well. I am not sure if you can run both D.COMP along with Audyssey Dynamic Volume and I would recommend double compression, but then again... Hmmm... maybe two light compressors would be better than one HEAVY compressor. That is something I would do in my own mixing/editing environment.

If you are running the Audyssey and like how it sounds in general, then lets just start with the settings on PG 37 and set the Dynamic Volume to at least medium. This will be a subjective setting as only you will know if you want more or less dynamic range.

So...

1. Room size
2. Is DX low overall?
3. Is DX fine, then things get too loud during action scenes. Too much Dynamic range?
4. When you ran the Audyssey calibration, how many sample points did you do?

Best,
Drew

@jayh  

Thank you!

@snbeal

Thank you for your input. Yes I loved the Meridians. Beautiful speakers! I too "dabbled" with Thiel back in the day so not as much recently. I also enjoyed some Revel speakers for a bit too.

To get that level of sound that doesn't need to take up floor space really won my wife over! Which of course is a huge win for me!!!

You are right about needing processor with an active crossover and also needing a lot of amps with a lot of power.

Do you have any recommendations for amps using the Hypex modules?

Trinnov is definitely on the short list of processors as is StormAudio. For a while Datasat was going to be it, but...

Thank you for your thoughtful responses!!! Much appreciated!

Drew

@mijostyn 
I am sorry I missed your post earlier! 

Love all of your advice! I am seriously considering the Trinnov. It really is the state of the art. I have also been looking into StormAudio as well. Datasat used to be king a few years ago and is still fantastic, but since I am buying today I would say Trinnov vs. StormAudio is my main two choices.

I am definitely going to need subwoofers. What I heard a the Wisdom theater was their STS subs and I felt they kept up quite well with the transient response of the planar magnetics.

My dealer is not as much of a fan of the Wisdom speakers and is pushing for JL Fathom. I need to do some more hands on experimentation to hone in on the best sub for my needs.

Best,
Drew

@phusis  I whole heartily agree with your post! I have also argued for years now that BOTH tracks should be present on the Bluray / UHD disc. We should optimize a lower reference level mix for those that prefer it to the more dynamic Theatrical mix. But we should also 100% absolutely keep the original mix intact for those of us who do want that experience!

I can't say for sure what is happening with the Disney tracks, but I do know that they now require a home theater mix that is suitable for streaming due to their new platform. All of the streaming formats require a compressed track. Not nearly as compressed as broadcast standards, but still significantly compressed compared to a theatrical mix.

Something I came to find out a few years back was that MANY times someone else other than the original sound supervisor and re-recording mixers would make the compressed home near field mix.

I encountered this myself accidentally when the film editor asked me to stop by the near field mix that was happening without any of us there to supervise. I stopped by and was shocked at what was happening. People that were not involved with the original creation of the soundtrack were making creative decisions based on their own opinion!

There was an opening scene that involved a Huey helicopter and a character yelling at his platoon. I mentioned TWICE to the director that the DX was being obscured by the Music and SFX and we should raise or lower one or the other. The first time he said - "Duly noted." The second time I knew I had crossed the line when he told me. "I am ok with him being obscured here - the audience gets his intention by his attitude and energy. The actual words are not important in this case. I also hope this is the last time I have to tell you this." Not to mention names, but this director is not a feeble man and can be quite intimidating. We became friends and always joked about that little exchange.

Anyway - what I heard during the near field mix was someone from the studio complaining that they could hear the DX for this very scene. They told the mixer to lower the SFX so they could clearly hear the DX. I said "STOP! What are you doing??!" They explained and I said I nearly lost my life on this very line of DX during the final mix - do you have the director's permission to be making creative changes? If so please proceed, but this is NOT his vision. I pulled out my cell phone to call the director to make sure this was indeed ok and immediately the studio rep said. "No I don't have permission." Then he went on to say - "Well I just think movies are mixed too loud over all."

I then called the Oscar winning mixers that mixed this film and asked them how they would like to proceed with the near field mix and passed that information on to I and the mixer handling the near field and we undid a fair bit of work that had been done.

The studio rep had a lot of technical setup specifications, but when it came to setting a reference level for a mix... he would find the loudest part of the film and adjust it to where he likes to listen. Then he wanted to adjust the entire track to compensate for this. Ultimately compressing the hell out of the track by raising all of the quiet scenes so they could now be heard. I listened to one of these mixes and I guess if i was watching an action film at my grandmas house while baby sitting... it would be great! If I was watching it and wanted any of the theatrical movie going experience, well that was out the window and I might as well rewatch an episode of Murder She Wrote for something a little more dynamic!!!

After that experience I found out that there were many little shops doing home mixes for studios by people that had no knowledge of how or why something was mixed they way it was during the final mix. Besides changing levels, they would often re-pan information to surrounds even add new SFX they liked better. It was the wild west! Now days we push to make sure the same team that creates the final mix stays on to create the near field mix.

Again.... I ramble on and on and on....

Thanks again for your post!!!

@dukeofdoowop  I have not read the thread you have shared, but I will head that way after this post. I am fairly familiar with the pros and cons of active vs passive speakers and the pros and cons. 

I would agree that Audessey can pretty easily over do things trying to make it better and in turn make things worse. When we calibrate our dub stages we don't use any auto calibration and do each speaker one at a time. It takes a bit, but the results can't be beat.

Well when mixing in an "immersive" format Dolby Atmos is the format of choice. Everything else gets scaled down from that format. That is including DTS. In Hollywood I am not aware of anyone who mixes in the DTS format... I could be wrong, but I have never heard of it being done.

Dolby has been such a leader in the professional audio community that it is still the benchmark. A Dolby engineer is present during the print master part of the process. They are are literally there with us on the dub stage monitoring the process to make sure all is as it should be.

That being said what you listen to in your own home is up to you. If you find the DTS format works better in your home and you like that better, by all means go for it!

The difference between the DTS and Atmos in a home situation is much more limited in that we are usually not talking about the same number of speakers as are used in a large venue theater / professional dub stage.

You can usually put your receiver on Auto and it will pick the correct format to be used based on the input signal it receives.

When we go to a premiere (in the old days before Covid) and have the ability to pick what format we will present.... I always pick Dolby Atmos if that helps.

Best,
Drew

@audiocaseevan 

Sorry for my delayed response. I know Chris mostly by reputation. However we have never worked together. I know many of the Skywalker group. It's a very small town when it comes to the sound world!

Best!

@mijostyn   

I am really looking forward to 2 channel listening as well. Not just background listening, but sit back and really soak it in! Love that!

In fact... I would venture to say I will do more music listening than movie watching overall! I do enough of that every day at work!!!!

I need a way to audition the Trinnov vs. StormAudio. I do believe the Trinnov does have superior room tuning software... But I have not heard both systems side by side. My dealer (of course biased) is a fan of the Storm system.  It is interesting that they are both French companies....??? Hmmm....

The processor is definitely my next big decision. I will let you know what I find out as well.

Thank you for your input! Much appreciated!

Best,
Drew

@snbeall 
I had read about where Wisdom Audio came from when I first started doing my online research and read about BG Radia. I did not know that Christie bought them. That is interesting. Do you know if they have done anything with the technology??

One of the big things going on right now is trying to use Micro LED panels in a Theatrical format and reproduce the sound properly. Traditionally it is a perforated projection screen with speakers behind the screen (as we all know) - but the Micro LED which look pretty amazing I must say... need a new approach. Meyers seems to be the first to launch a workable solution where they are aiming the speakers at the screen in order to reflect the sound back at the audience.

Netflix has just installed a system with Sony Crystal LED. The Sony screen I have seen in person and it is amazing! I have not heard the Meyer's solution myself but my friend Will Files has and he was very impressed. I hope to demo the system for myself soon.

Best!
Drew

@snbeall  I have not gotten that far yet. We are living in the house during the remodel so we are in one half of the house for phase #1 while the other half is being worked on (down to the studs remodel). Then we move to the finished side of the home for phase #2 which will deal with the Wisdom setup with screen....

I am not sure what screen Wisdom was/is using in their theater. I know they did a fair bit of research on the subject looking for a "transparent" screen, but I don't remember what they ended up installing. I will need to find out! Still need to pick a projector as well!

@deep_333 

I get your concern, but I have responded to this question enough I believe.

I technically am NOT yet an owner as it will still be a few months before I have the speakers installed in phase 2 of our remodel.

I am not sure what else I can tell you except that I made my original post out of my enthusiasm for the love of "sound."

I very much look forward to giving further impressions once I finally have these speakers installed.

Best,
Drew