I have been a HiFi guy starting at 12 years old with my father passing along the love. We would spend almost every weekend auditioning speakers looking to find the perfect system. We purchased many speakers over the years and they all had their pros and cons, but the trade off always seemed to be nuanced and delicate vs. dynamic and punchy. When auditioning speakers people would always ask what kind of music do you like to listen to? Rock, female vocals, classical, etc... We had/have eclectic taste and would listen to it all. Why could't a speaker just play all of it?!?! Anyway my love for music, sound, etc... became my profession as I am now an Oscar nominated Supervising Sound Editor with well over 150 movies under my belt.
For the last 5 years I have been looking for speakers that can play films at reference levels with all the detail and punch, yet when I want to listen to music can give that nuanced and detailed imaging, space, air, articulation without being harsh and fatiguing. I have listened to SO MANY speakers and spent hundreds of hours auditioning everything I could find. I would fall in love with something for music and then try play one of my films at reference level and it just never gave me the impact I was looking for. I get it - hard to move a lot of air and still be nuanced and articulate. There are some excellent compression drivers/horns that can do the impact stuff, but for me they always have that harsh edge when it comes to music. The flip side with dome type tweeters I have found things have to be pushed to the edge to try to give that theatrical impact. Looking for the quick transient response of an electrostatic, with the punch of compression driver type of system.
Then a dealer recommend I listen to some speakers from Wisdom Audio. I have to admit I was pretty skeptical at first. I read about these and it all sounded like marketing to me, but the dealer I was talking with said he was blown away by them. So I reached out to the company and setup a demo. They use planar magnetics which is not exactly new, but is very difficult to manufacture. I asked them to have one of my films available to listen to. I chose one that I knew extremely well that has a LOT of dynamic punch as well as subtle nuance. I live in Los Angeles and the company is in Carson City, Nevada. I bought an airplane ticket and I was off. I was treated to a tour of the factory and shown how the speakers were made. USA manufactured!! Then we spent a few hours listening to all types of music on different ranges of speakers. I LOVED what I was hearing with the music part of the audition. Then I asked to hear my film in their theater. I expected to be disappointed based on what I had experienced in the past. Then it happened... I heard the film play and it sounded AMAZING! These speakers could do it all!!! No compression, no fatigue, HiFi sound and still able to play theatrical film tracks as they are meant to be heard. In fact - better! I called my wife in disbelief that my search for "The Speakers" was finally over! I even called my father to tell him what I had just heard. It was the impressive! I remind you - I do this for a living!
Since we are undergoing a major remodel at our home, my wife expected that the family room was going to be filled with big speakers as she has become accustomed to living with me. With some of these Wisdom Audio speakers, they are actually designed to be flush mounted in the wall. I thought there is no way a wall mounted speaker could ever sound as good as a traditional speaker. I was so wrong!! So not only did I find the perfect speaker, but not big boxes in the room 3 feet away from any walls! My wife was thrilled.
If you have never heard speakers by Wisdom Audio you need to find a dealer where you can audition them, or fly to the factory for a private demo!
Thank you. I am lucky (and silently thank the architect from
the 80s…)
The Raidho D2 has been described more as a ‘bottom up’ speaker, probably in part due to to a bass hump 80-160 or so. Once it is ameliorated (DSP) the pure clarity and
liquidity and clarity if even greater. I think between neutral
and laid back is fair. (Sometimes a fast, tight, deep bass confuses the idea of
yin and yang.) The two 4.5” mid/bass drivers are fast and with rear port
loading, very deep. Best is the sealed ribbon tweeter. The treble clarity
of off the charts and it is a bit forgiving as it has never ‘hurt me’, still providing
incredible detail.
No kidding here (ask my poor wife), I owned wonderful
Dynaudio Sapphires with the (fairly) acclaimed Esotar II tweeter (and it’s
possibly my favorite conventional dome tweeter, soft of course) but the D2s have revealed subtle
new musical information, I had never previously heard, in almost every CD I own.
Video stuff is modest. In the 14x20 TV room we use Elac Debut
2.0 speakers, F5.2/C5.2/B5.2 , and an REL Storm III sub, Onkyo AV receiver, Panasonic
BluRay/DVD and a smallish Vizio 55” monitor.
The 12 x 22 basement theater exists, but is not sorted for
speakers. It is a JVC DLA-RS400 projector onto a 150” (1.78) fixed wall screen,
a Denon AVR, and Panasonic BluRay. Speakers: NHT old 2.5i floor-standers, dual 1.5s center,
and NHT bi-polar wall surrounds. OR: Martin
Logan SL3 electrostatics with a ML Cinema center channel. I have two SVS SB-2000s
(and one SB-3000) all just acquired. I originally figured using two SB-2000s
for theater. Now I’m unsure of that.
Correction certainly can be a blessing or a curse depending on
how it is applied. For me, and I don’t want to be a salesperson, but if my DSP
unit quit I’d spend 3-5X its cost to replace it, if I had to. Nothing, aside
from the D2s has made such a huge, extremely audible improvement in music in my
system. I’d beg non-believers to try it before dismissing it…
I’ll be hanging around to hear future reports on the Wisdom
install. Best!
Wow! I would love to have that setup! Especially with the Rocky Mountains in the background for stereo listening!!! Doesn't get much better than that!
I would love to have a dedicated theater room! That would be ideal, but...
I have not listened to the Raidho D2 speakers. I would like to listen to them. Do find them to be laid back, more forward sounding or neutral??
What do you use for your home theater setup?
I completely agree with you about room calibration. While it can't completely resolve poor room acoustic design, it can definitely make a huge improvement! I have heard the difference and am sold. I have also heard some "auto correction" that did more harm than good. So it is always good to start with room treatment when possible, but that is obvious to anyone on this site.
@mahgister Thank you for your support! One of you is right, and in this case it happens to be you!
I will continue to express my thoughts and share my experience for those interested. I very much appreciate the support and experiences of those who have shared thoughts on some of my questions.
@mahgister I am not making an accusation without proof. I'm just speaking about this eerie feeling i get sometimes. For what its worth, it was deduced (with proof) a couple of years ago on either audioholics or stevehoffman that one very enthusiastic happy customer was indeed a owner/sales guy. For your amusement, I'll link that thread when i find it as It gets very funny lol. Other times, we oughta just live with these eerie feelings, i suppose!
Some threads give me a very eerie feeling that it's the owner/sales guy for some brand pretending to be a extremely happy customer!! It is prevalent in many forums these days.
This is a very good thread. Thanks for your efforts, Drew, and others!
I am fortunate and happy to have my primary two-channel system separate from the TV room, or home theater downstairs. For me, that is a must. I really like seeing the Rocky Mountains and the Continental Divide directly behind my loudspeakers through my living/listening room windows. Having a theater in that room would be tough/inappropriate.
As for Class D amplification I think you are looking in the right direction. For two channel I've used tubes (rarely), but Class AB mostly up until I picked us a W4S STI-1000 integrated (claimed 560/1120w). You cannot hear anything out of the speaker when the system is on with no music input. The pre-amp and amp sections are stone-dead quiet, and clean and precise, with bass authority as well.
I run the STI-1000 with a pair of (used-to-me) Raidho D2 small floorstanders. Unless I had a lot more money these are my 'holy grail' of musical reproduction speakers for two channel. Scratch home theater for these; loudest peaks are only to the mid 90s, but plenty for me for musical listening, and they reproduce tight bass flat to almost 30Hz within limits.
(If I need it louder I'll high-pass D2s and add a sealed sub. I'll also mention that the STI-1000 may be considered neutral to lean, but it pairs very well with the Raidhos as they are more warm than lean; I've tried other power amps but keep going back to the the STI-1000's power section as well as the preamp, looping in the DSP unit.)
I feel room correction for bass response is a must if you ever want to hear how nice your speakers can sound (I still do not know anyone who has that dead-perfect listening space with zero corrections). The DSPeaker Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core, a DSP based room-correction and equalizer, has transformed a good system into one of even greater clarity and detail while establishing near pitch-perfect bass from 30-200 Hz.
If an avid audiophile hears the A/B with his/her room corrected for bass you'll never go back to the uneven bass most rooms provide. it was a night and day revelation, easily discernible to anyone with ears.
Thanks for all of the theater/movie information! I'm reading and digesting it all.
@wweiss: “the time I heard Brothers in Arms through a pair of Apogees in the 80's was a religious experience I have never forgotten.”
“Brothers In Arms” was my go-to auditioning CD when I was looking for components. In particular, the track “Your Latest Trick” seemed to have it all: solo trumpet, crisp high hat and ride cymbal, a point where the bass kicks in and Mark Knopfler’s clear, deepish vocals. It kind of challenged everything I was looking for.
@snbeall I have not gotten that far yet. We are living in the house during the remodel so we are in one half of the house for phase #1 while the other half is being worked on (down to the studs remodel). Then we move to the finished side of the home for phase #2 which will deal with the Wisdom setup with screen....
I am not sure what screen Wisdom was/is using in their theater. I know they did a fair bit of research on the subject looking for a "transparent" screen, but I don't remember what they ended up installing. I will need to find out! Still need to pick a projector as well!
@drewde Speaking of perforated screens and speakers behind, what screen do you plan to use so as not to ruin the sound of the Wisdoms? Do you know what Wisdom was using in their demo theater?
I am really looking forward to 2 channel listening as well. Not just background listening, but sit back and really soak it in! Love that!
In fact... I would venture to say I will do more music listening than movie watching overall! I do enough of that every day at work!!!!
I need a way to audition the Trinnov vs. StormAudio. I do believe the Trinnov does have superior room tuning software... But I have not heard both systems side by side. My dealer (of course biased) is a fan of the Storm system. It is interesting that they are both French companies....??? Hmmm....
The processor is definitely my next big decision. I will let you know what I find out as well.
@snbeall I had read about where Wisdom Audio came from when I first started doing my online research and read about BG Radia. I did not know that Christie bought them. That is interesting. Do you know if they have done anything with the technology??
One of the big things going on right now is trying to use Micro LED panels in a Theatrical format and reproduce the sound properly. Traditionally it is a perforated projection screen with speakers behind the screen (as we all know) - but the Micro LED which look pretty amazing I must say... need a new approach. Meyers seems to be the first to launch a workable solution where they are aiming the speakers at the screen in order to reflect the sound back at the audience.
Netflix has just installed a system with Sony Crystal LED. The Sony screen I have seen in person and it is amazing! I have not heard the Meyer's solution myself but my friend Will Files has and he was very impressed. I hope to demo the system for myself soon.
Sorry for my delayed response. I know Chris mostly by reputation. However we have never worked together. I know many of the Skywalker group. It's a very small town when it comes to the sound world!
My latest video on the DIY HiFi Life Channel covers the VTV Purifi Amplifier. Stay tuned for my next video where I show how to upgrade this amp as well. Like and Subscribe is always appreciated.
https://youtu.be/mBj8EjHXBJE
BTW, Drew, you may be interested in the fact that the original BG Radia company (from which Wisdom spun off) was bought by Christie - primarily for the IP and planar driver technology. As you know, Christie is a major movie theater display/speaker company.
@drewde You asked about suggested amps. VTV or Apollon are two manufacturers who can customize exactly what configurations you want and at economical prices - particularly given the number of channels you’re going to require!
I must also correct my earlier post about the history of Wisdom. I had my two originators reversed. Contrary to (my) rumors of his death, Mr Bohlender is very much alive. It was Mr Graebener’s death that resulted in the dissolution/sale of BG Radia. My apologies to Mr Bohlender. My sympathies with friends/family of Mr Graebener.
@dukeofdoowop I have not read the thread you have shared, but I will head that way after this post. I am fairly familiar with the pros and cons of active vs passive speakers and the pros and cons.
I would agree that Audessey can pretty easily over do things trying to make it better and in turn make things worse. When we calibrate our dub stages we don't use any auto calibration and do each speaker one at a time. It takes a bit, but the results can't be beat.
Well when mixing in an "immersive" format Dolby Atmos is the format of choice. Everything else gets scaled down from that format. That is including DTS. In Hollywood I am not aware of anyone who mixes in the DTS format... I could be wrong, but I have never heard of it being done.
Dolby has been such a leader in the professional audio community that it is still the benchmark. A Dolby engineer is present during the print master part of the process. They are are literally there with us on the dub stage monitoring the process to make sure all is as it should be.
That being said what you listen to in your own home is up to you. If you find the DTS format works better in your home and you like that better, by all means go for it!
The difference between the DTS and Atmos in a home situation is much more limited in that we are usually not talking about the same number of speakers as are used in a large venue theater / professional dub stage.
You can usually put your receiver on Auto and it will pick the correct format to be used based on the input signal it receives.
When we go to a premiere (in the old days before Covid) and have the ability to pick what format we will present.... I always pick Dolby Atmos if that helps.
It seems to me the Wisdom system is a hybrid system that addresses many of the stated concerns about flexibility in upgrading. My two cents; you have done extensive listening and research, have a very discerning ear and unusual expertise. You were so blown away by this system that you started this thread. I once played in an orchestra backing up the great Raphael Mendez. After an excellent rehearsal he said "Perfect! Don't play it any better than that tonight." Buy the system that blew you away. Don't make it better.
Thank you for your ideas in tweaking my system. I have tried them and definitely feel you have started me down the right road. The rest will be trial and error. My subwoofer is set at 80hz per Mike Kelly's recommendation. (When you call Aerial for advice, Mike answers.) That should supersede any automatic Audessey settings. Given my issues and my 3.1 setup, do you recommend using Dolby or some other proprietary setting?
Drewde, your subs have to be configured as a linear array or they will not project power like your line source speakers. You can position individual subwoofers against the front wall on the floor under the screen at intervals of 4 feet or so. The higher you cross over the closer the subs have to be. 4 feet is perfectly adequate for crosses up to 100 Hz. The subwoofers will be function acoustically as one big driver all the way down to 1 Hz and project power like a line source. You can do the same thing with two towers but they have to be as high as your ceiling, and they take up vertical space possibly interfering with the screen. I do not like screens in front of speakers. If you look at my system page you will get the idea. If you want to lean more about subwoofers feel free to message me. I have been using line source speakers since 1980. As far as processors go I would go with the Trinnov over StormAudio. I think their Room control is better. I am strictly two channel so I would go with the Amethyst but they have theater processors up to 32 channels. It is interesting that both companies are French. How you use the room control is different for theater than 2 channel. Some people never actually sit in a specific spot to listen, music is for the background only. If you do sit in the listening position and listen seriously you can usually store a profile for strict two channel use and switch back and forth.
@drewde you probably know my neighbor, Chris Flick - he’s a sound editor / mixer as well who constantly works at Skywalker Ranch. Congrats on your system! Hope the install goes / went well! Cheers, Evan
@phusis I whole heartily agree with your post! I have also argued for years now that BOTH tracks should be present on the Bluray / UHD disc. We should optimize a lower reference level mix for those that prefer it to the more dynamic Theatrical mix. But we should also 100% absolutely keep the original mix intact for those of us who do want that experience!
I can't say for sure what is happening with the Disney tracks, but I do know that they now require a home theater mix that is suitable for streaming due to their new platform. All of the streaming formats require a compressed track. Not nearly as compressed as broadcast standards, but still significantly compressed compared to a theatrical mix.
Something I came to find out a few years back was that MANY times someone else other than the original sound supervisor and re-recording mixers would make the compressed home near field mix.
I encountered this myself accidentally when the film editor asked me to stop by the near field mix that was happening without any of us there to supervise. I stopped by and was shocked at what was happening. People that were not involved with the original creation of the soundtrack were making creative decisions based on their own opinion!
There was an opening scene that involved a Huey helicopter and a character yelling at his platoon. I mentioned TWICE to the director that the DX was being obscured by the Music and SFX and we should raise or lower one or the other. The first time he said - "Duly noted." The second time I knew I had crossed the line when he told me. "I am ok with him being obscured here - the audience gets his intention by his attitude and energy. The actual words are not important in this case. I also hope this is the last time I have to tell you this." Not to mention names, but this director is not a feeble man and can be quite intimidating. We became friends and always joked about that little exchange.
Anyway - what I heard during the near field mix was someone from the studio complaining that they could hear the DX for this very scene. They told the mixer to lower the SFX so they could clearly hear the DX. I said "STOP! What are you doing??!" They explained and I said I nearly lost my life on this very line of DX during the final mix - do you have the director's permission to be making creative changes? If so please proceed, but this is NOT his vision. I pulled out my cell phone to call the director to make sure this was indeed ok and immediately the studio rep said. "No I don't have permission." Then he went on to say - "Well I just think movies are mixed too loud over all."
I then called the Oscar winning mixers that mixed this film and asked them how they would like to proceed with the near field mix and passed that information on to I and the mixer handling the near field and we undid a fair bit of work that had been done.
The studio rep had a lot of technical setup specifications, but when it came to setting a reference level for a mix... he would find the loudest part of the film and adjust it to where he likes to listen. Then he wanted to adjust the entire track to compensate for this. Ultimately compressing the hell out of the track by raising all of the quiet scenes so they could now be heard. I listened to one of these mixes and I guess if i was watching an action film at my grandmas house while baby sitting... it would be great! If I was watching it and wanted any of the theatrical movie going experience, well that was out the window and I might as well rewatch an episode of Murder She Wrote for something a little more dynamic!!!
After that experience I found out that there were many little shops doing home mixes for studios by people that had no knowledge of how or why something was mixed they way it was during the final mix. Besides changing levels, they would often re-pan information to surrounds even add new SFX they liked better. It was the wild west! Now days we push to make sure the same team that creates the final mix stays on to create the near field mix.
Love all of your advice! I am seriously considering the Trinnov. It really is the state of the art. I have also been looking into StormAudio as well. Datasat used to be king a few years ago and is still fantastic, but since I am buying today I would say Trinnov vs. StormAudio is my main two choices.
I am definitely going to need subwoofers. What I heard a the Wisdom theater was their STS subs and I felt they kept up quite well with the transient response of the planar magnetics.
My dealer is not as much of a fan of the Wisdom speakers and is pushing for JL Fathom. I need to do some more hands on experimentation to hone in on the best sub for my needs.
Thank you for your input. Yes I loved the Meridians. Beautiful speakers! I too "dabbled" with Thiel back in the day so not as much recently. I also enjoyed some Revel speakers for a bit too.
To get that level of sound that doesn't need to take up floor space really won my wife over! Which of course is a huge win for me!!!
You are right about needing processor with an active crossover and also needing a lot of amps with a lot of power.
Do you have any recommendations for amps using the Hypex modules?
Trinnov is definitely on the short list of processors as is StormAudio. For a while Datasat was going to be it, but...
Thank you for your thoughtful responses!!! Much appreciated!
Great thread and -initiation. I must say that I cherish your insights and where you come from, not least also in regards to your extensive background in the movie sound mix industry, and how I believe this to relate to my own approach and preference with sound reproduction in a domestic setting. A lot to process for sure in what has unspooled in the posts so far, so this, as an outset at least, will be a condensed or fragmented contribution of mine.
I've heard of (but never actually heard) the Wisdom Audio speakers that you've come across with their, per your take, favorable ability to bridge the "nuance and delicacy vs. dynamics and punch" chasm expressed by you. To many an audiophile I'm guessing this is not a dichotomy at all, being the latter part of the "equation" (i.e.: dynamics and punch, certainly as called for with the more uninhibited home movie sound reproduction) isn't that important to them:
"There's no way I would subject a good pair of speakers designed to reveal separate instruments in an ensemble or do justice to a folksinger plus guitars, banjo, string bass, and so on." No offense, but this in a nutshell expresses my frustration over the many years of listening to loudspeakers. Why not have a speaker that can deliver everything? Every single speaker that I have heard in the past that supposedly were intended to deliver the nuance of an ensemble, etc... well they couldn't even play at a level that remotely came close to what an orchestra can reproduce in those moments I wanted to listen to them, let alone playback rock, country and forget about film.
Completely agree with your response. My 2.2 channel set-up is one to take duties of both music (HDD-based and Tidal Hi-fi) and movie playback (Blu-ray's/UHD's) - sans surrounds and center channel, that is, and this is because it's first and foremost and music system through-and-through and dialed in as such, though very closely followed as a HT ditto. The great thing in this specific situation is that one doesn't exclude the other, meaning its qualities into music reproduction complements the sound I'm looking for with movies as well, and that's going by references of live venues (acoustic as well as amplified) and cinematically more akin to IMAX theatres than regular cinemas. This is realized with main speakers that are 2-way pro cinema speakers from Electro-Voice with a horn MF/HF and dual 15" woofer/mids, and two subs that are 15"-loaded tapped horns (20 cf. volume a piece). This may seem brute at first in a home setting, and it is or certainly can be, but the "secret sauce" that makes it a delicate and nuanced performer to boot is careful implementation and a fully active configuration. Active really makes it more resolved, transparent and less signature sounding - a win-win, if you ask me - and ample displacement and headroom translates sonically into ease and a visceral quality rarely if ever heard with smaller and lower efficiency speakers. Where I've sacrificed a bit with movie playback is giving up on the 10-20Hz range, which may seem preposterous to some, but given select movie titles (and there are not few of them) and very potent sub set-ups with huge displacement and amp power this very low octave can produce shudder effects and pressurization that can be very much felt. Tuning a sub set-up that low however, subjectively at least, takes away some of liveliness and impact of the central bass region, which is enormously important for music as well (hence this being a music set-up predominantly). Still, reproduction down to 20-25Hz at full click is no slouch by any stretch of the imagination.
The dynamic range of movies is something I cherish wholeheartedly, and I find it to be an important test for one's set-up also in regard to music playback. I'm dialing in the ref. volume with dialogue and where it sounds naturally present, and the rest of the sound spectrum simply revolves around that in a way that makes a movie breath sonically - be it quieter titles or more action laden ones. With Mr. Nolan's latest 'Tenet' offering that's truly LOUD when the action kicks in, and in my listening space boarders "saturation" levels throughout the movie at ref. (per dialogue) volume. I adore Nolan's very conscious approach to sound mixing hearing it really take off as such from 'The Dark Knight' and onwards, and while my adoration includes 'Tenet' it's at the brink I find in its sheer loudness that's more suitably compatible with bigger spacings; at the digital IMAX theatre I saw it the first time around the sound level span seemed to benefit a bit from the large auditorium. At the other dynamic range scale with have most of Disney's home video Blu-ray and UHD releases these last years that are mixed with low ref. volume, timid dynamics and weak bass response - a travesty, really. Any insights on why they've been going this route almost consistently for years now? It may keep soundbars from blowing up, but it sure as h... is an unfortunate benchmark for those of us who care much more about proper dynamic swings, overall presence of presentation and LF prowess.
Uninhibited dynamics are utterly important with music and not least movies. I own Criterion's Blu-ray of the David Fincher's 'The Game,' and it sports a near field and theatrical mix. I prefer the latter as the more expansive mix that breathes more naturally to me, and therefore I'm happy that they left it there for us to savor in addition to the near field mix. I hope we won't see diminishment with regard to dynamic range to cater, if you would, to the lowest denominator, but will at least uphold the theatrical mix- if nothing else as an option.
@dukeofdoowop I have too have a less than stellar setup for audio! It is what it is!
Well if the DX is low overall, I would simply start by raising the center channel around 3dB. This should make an immediate improvement. If you add some mild compression you might find things falling into a much more comfortable place for you and others.
I don't know for sure, but it is possible that if we adjust the center channel level manually (within the preamp) it might turn off Audyssey. Hmm.
According to the manual, you should be able to see on the front panel if the DYNAMIC EQ and DYNAMIC VOL are lit up - hence engaged.
You should be able to adjust these settings directly from your remote. I couldn't find a way to attach photos so if you look on your remote the #9 key will have DYN EQ/VOL above it. By pressing this it will change the settings accordingly: 1.DYNAMIC EQ: OFF DYNAMIC VOL: OFF
2. Dynamic EQ: ON Dynamic Vol: Heavy (most compression)
3. Dynamic EQ: ON Dynamic Vol: Medium
4. Dynamic EQ: ON Dynamic Vol: Light (least amount of compression)
5 Dynamic EQ: ON Dynamic Vol: OFF
This should easily and quickly adjust these setting from your remote without having to dig deep into the menu settings and try a setting that might help you.
The #8 on your remote will get you directly to the channel level settings. There you should be able to scroll down to the Center channel and hit select it and bump it up 3dB.
My only concern with this adjustment is whether it will disable you Audyssey calibration or not. Hopefully not, but I can't say for sure as I am not familiar with this preamp I couldn't find the info in the manual as to what it might do.
As for you speaker setup in a room 30x15 I guessed 10' heigh for ceiling and doing a quick look using REW software. (https://www.roomeqwizard.com) Your one subwoofer in the corner is actually a reasonable spot based on your room dimensions and your listening position. One sub is actually always difficult to get the smoothest curves and it shows you will have significant bumps at 37.7Hz, 52.9Hz 67.5Hz, but assuming you using the Audyssey crossover at 80Hz the dip I see at 107 Hz shouldn't be a problem. Audyssey should have made the appropriate EQ adjustments to tamp down the bumps.
Of course the best instrument we have is our ears! These tools help us get a good idea of what is going on, but listening is the ultimate test!
Let me know if this helps.
Like I said - I would definitely tweak the system you have before feeling the need to buy new speakers!
Take a look at VTV or Apollon for US based makers of multichannel Hypex or Purifi based amps. You could have them customize exactly what you want - 500 watts for bass, 250 or 125 for tweeter sections, etc. But you’re probably gonna need to use Wisdom’s SC2 and/or SC3 preamp/crossover which are proprietary and equalized for the speakers.
I have salivated over Wisdom Audio for years. Decades actually. The closest I came were some BG Radia 520dx made by Bohlender Graebener at the turn of the millennia. BG manufactured the planar units for Wisdom, started by Graebener when he left BG. Unfortunately BG did not survive the death of Bohlender. Wisdom carries on the tradition and elevates it.
That you have experienced Meridian 8000’s and moved on says something about your point of reference. Meridian is where I personally went following BG. I am now dabbling w/Thiel, but would leave them all for Wisdom. If I could afford it! You ask about amplification. Unless something has changed, the Wisdom universe is similar to Meridian. It is all intended to work together as a system. Their speakers are all active - in the sense that there is no internal passive crossover. They require a preamp/processor/active DSP crossover unit and are bi or tri amped depending on the model. Although you can probably substitute your own power amplification stage. I would strongly suggest the Hypex of Purify modules based D class multichannel amplifiers. You’re going to need a lot of channels of amplification and these do it not only efficiently but with best specs.
The inwall or on wall nature is I believe their strongest attribute. Especially as it goes for movies. I find large in room speakers - which to provide the best sound must necessarily be out in the room- to be very distracting.
They are a complex system and not unlike Meridian require a good and experienced dealer/installer to get the best result. Although with your background along with support from Wisdom, and plenty of $, you should experience Nirvana.
I have received some other posts that I believe have been removed before I could respond still complaining that this is spam, advertisement, etc...
If you look at when I joined this group it was in May 7, 2017. Boy I sure played the long game to start a simple advertising thread!!!??!?!
I just didn't feel I had anything really exciting to post regarding my experience with a speaker until now. I get the weekly recap on Friday from Audiogon and just click on the topics that interest me. Sometimes nothing grabs me and I just delete the email. Sometimes almost all of the threads interest me.
I enjoy the group and plan on continuing. I have also refrained from posting once or twice in the past because these things can become a HUGE time suck. I am more than happy to help those that I can via email. If you live in LA I would be happy to come by and help out as well. But I am usually SO swamped with work that any free time I do have I spend with my family.
I knew when I started this particular thread there would be some flack - It's fine and I enjoy the discussion. I don't enjoy insults to me or those I work with for well over 25 years in this industry.
Thank you to all here who are interested in discussing, debating without resorting to ignorant attacks.
Drew You are extremely generous. I will admit that my room is a setup nightmare. Unfortunately, it is a small house and our living room must also serve as a....living room. The room is 30 x 15. The long wall is all glass and overlooks the river, so the room focuses on the view. Accordingly, the OLED monitor and speakers are arranged in front of the glass along the long wall and no room to move them away from the wall. Conversely, the listening position is only 12 feet away and the subwoofer is in a corner at the end of the wall. I know - audiophile heresy.
I think the bottom line is I must rely on electronic tweaking. I think of Audessey as a beginning point (I ran two reference points), but the infinite options beyond that are mind blowing. It may well be that compensating for this setup nightmare is beyond the capabilities of Audessey.
Yes the DX is low overall, so I crank the volume and get yelled at when the shooting starts. We also use captions a lot. I think this is a fairly common problem that seems to get worse the better the sound system. I have several systems, in other rooms, of lesser quality and have less of this problem.
If necessary I will have my dealer's tech come in and evaluate my settings.Unfortunately, he is 70 miles away. In the meantime, I very much appreciate your thoughts.
@ericsch Yes I am starting with the basics. Again you and others are complaining that they dynamic range of Theatrical Film mixes is too great for your liking. Period.
When the the film says "Directed by Ericsch" (or whatever your name is) then you can decide how much dynamic range you want in your film. It appears many of those complaining prefer the limited dynamic range imposed by Broadcast TV. I can tell you from personal experience when you play those tracks in a Theatrical environment - It sounds horrible.
Here are some great examples of Classical pieces that also have tremendous Dynamic range.
Mahler Symphony 9 - Claudio Abbado/Berlin (Deutsches Gram.) Stravinsky 'Rite of Spring,' - Valery Gergiev/Kirov (Philips) Shostakovich 10 - Karajan/Berlin (DG) Sibelius 5 - Vanska/Lahti (BIS) Beethoven 9 - Vanska/Minnesota (BIS) Arvo Part - Lamentate (ECM) Benjamin Britten "War Requiem" - Rattle (EMI) Verdi Requiem - Abbado (EMI) Brahms "German Requiem" - Klemperer (EMI) Bartok "Concerto for Orchestra" - Reiner (RCA) Beethoven 5&7th symphs - Kleiber (DG) Tchaikovsky 6th Symph - Pletnev (Virgin)
Sure they do not have DX as one person mentioned, but if listening on a properly calibrated system (usually just the basics will suffice) one should be able to hear the DX. If the loud scenes are too loud for your personal preferences then you need to utilize some of the MANY built in compressors available to you. NOT decide for the rest of the film going audience that things need to be set to your liking.
More than likely you don't even LIKE the movies that you are complaining about... just a guess, but it is usually the case in my past experience. Is there a film you really like that has this problem. Someone mentioned Lord Of The Rings. I did not work on that series but am friends with many of those that did. In my opinion they are great sounding tracks. My kids actually watch a lot of those over and over on a smaller system setup at home Just some old B&W CDM 7 in 5.1 I bought when I first got married. All I could afford at the time. My kids will be playing these films in the background all the time and we don't really have any issues with things getting out of control.
And nobody has suggested that anyone has any hearing issues.
When we are mixing these films do you honestly think we just say wow things are too loud and we can't hear any of the dialogue so oh well... Really???
Not every film will have big dynamic range issues. It is relative to the content of the film. Most of the times I hear this complaint with regards to action films. A film like MEET JOE BLACK is not going to pop up as a film with too much dynamic range because the story doesn't require it. But if you are watching Saving Private Ryan, Apollo 13, Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World, etc... well then the story content does demand and benefits from having the ability to go from a whisper to loud.
I don't know what else to say about the issue other than please use the MANY tools available to you so that you can enjoy films the way you want to watch them. But please don't feel the need to attack an entire community of people that have dedicated their lives to this craft because you don't like how films are mixed. You are completely entitled to your opinion as is everyone... but it is just that, your opinion.
By the way... most of us get our hearing tested at least on a yearly basis. Surprisingly many of us have hearing that is far better than what our age would suggest.
Also a reminder that HEARING and LISTENING are two completely different disciplines. One is passive and the other is active.
Thank you for your response. I have never heard the Duetta Sigs. I bet they sound AWESOME!!! I am now a fan of the technology.
How do they hold up over time. This is still a concern of mine. I am so used the traditional speaker designs and how they hold up. Any thoughts on how this technology fares over time??
Thank you!
The foam that is between the clamps and bass foils deteriorates and then they can resonate very bad. There is a diy fix for this, but the current foil manufacturer frowns upon this if you ever want then replaced.
DUDE!!! That is an awesome setup!!! Yes I get the upgrade bug part of your post. I think that is half the fun of this hobby.
I love the McIntosh gear. Always have been a huge fan.
One other question... what are the dimensions of your room? Standing waves are one of those nasty things that are hard to tone down.
I have used Audyssey room correction before and have had VERY mixed results. In on room it worked fantastic and another it really muddied up the sound and I found using the basic distance settings for delays and speaker level settings worked better. I think the problem lies more with my room and the software trying to correct for poor room treatment on my part. If it has to overcompensate too much with EQ I find it hurts rather than helps. AGAIN... my personal experience ONLY!!
That being said - the Audyssey has some very good compression settings for just your situation.
Would you say that overall you find the DX hard to hear with films in general? Is the dynamic range of quiet to loud a separate issue or the main problem?
I don't have your Control Preamp so I found the manual online. PG 37 discusses the Dynamic Volume (dynamic EQ) settings. The Dynamic Volume should help you with the overly loud issues - it has 3 levels of compression depending on your likes.
BTW - I do like the Dynamic EQ. It is basically a loudness contour (Fletcher Munson Curve) setting. When you turn down your level the bass suffers more than the 3k - 4k range and need to be adjusted upward a fair bit... I forget how much but roughly 10dB to sound equal in volume. What does this mean. When you are listening back to at a lower level it will adjust those frequencies to keep the overall tonal balance the same. It should still sound rich and full even at lower levels.
Page 30 of the manual discusses some other surround settings your preamp has. DRC is one of them which will work with the Dolby True HD tracks. It also has a D.Comp setting as well. I am not sure if you can run both D.COMP along with Audyssey Dynamic Volume and I would recommend double compression, but then again... Hmmm... maybe two light compressors would be better than one HEAVY compressor. That is something I would do in my own mixing/editing environment.
If you are running the Audyssey and like how it sounds in general, then lets just start with the settings on PG 37 and set the Dynamic Volume to at least medium. This will be a subjective setting as only you will know if you want more or less dynamic range.
So...
1. Room size 2. Is DX low overall? 3. Is DX fine, then things get too loud during action scenes. Too much Dynamic range? 4. When you ran the Audyssey calibration, how many sample points did you do?
@drewde All your suggestions above are basic to the setup of a home theater system. Most of us on this board know how to do this. In my 5.1 system (separate from my 2 channel system) it is virtually impossible to hear soft dialog without getting blasted out of the room during so-called action sequences. BTW this has nothing to do with any hearing deficiencies as this problem is documented by multi generational listeners. Depending on the movie, I sometimes have to resort to turning on the captions which can be distracting. My opinion, the movie industry is catering to the bling, the masses, the dollars.
Thank you for your response. I have never heard the Duetta Sigs. I bet they sound AWESOME!!! I am now a fan of the technology.
How do they hold up over time. This is still a concern of mine. I am so used the traditional speaker designs and how they hold up. Any thoughts on how this technology fares over time??
I run my system as 3.1. I went through the built-in calibration and setup protocol using the included microphone. The 7T's are new this year and sound magnificent, but many of us, like you, are always thinking about that one last upgrade...........
What are you using for your Home Theater setup? Speaker configuration 2.1, 3.1, 5.1, etc...
What speakers are you using now? You may have stated this earlier, but I don't recall.
What McIntosh preamp are you using.
Have you done any home theater calibration? At a minimum would be setting the correct delay compensation for each speaker and then a simple pink noise SPL cal. That should get you in the ballpark for sure.
The compression options many preamps provide are just that - compressors to address the needs of which you speak. These are not ideal, but might help reduce the loud peaks so you don't have to chase the volume for quiet DX scenes and then loud action sequences.
By raising the center channel you will also help give a boost to the DX (along with everything that is in the center channel) The center channel is the most utilized speaker for film mixes.
I would start with the basic calibration of the correct delay compensation and SPL level for each speaker. Then trying one of the compressors built into your preamp. Then if you feel the need for more DX separation bump up the center channel.
You should not have to buy all new speakers to get proper levels unless you have a severely mismatched center channel compared to your L/R mains???
If you are looking for new speakers, THEN you might want to put Wisdom Audio on your list of speakers to audition. They may fit your needs or maybe not, but if you haven't heard them you owe it to yourself to take a listen.
This was the intent of my post(s).
Let me know if I can help get your system better dialed in for you!
@drewde your comments and information are greatly appreciated. You have invested a huge amount of time on this thread. I am also a musician and a strong advocate of improving the sound quality of home theater as well as music reproduction systems. I agree that people who use sound bars and other inferior products are missing out on half the fun of movies.
The latest, and worst iteration of the "SFX" problem is the canned crowd noise being transmitted over the announcers during NFL games. You can hardly hear the play by play over the gratuitous (and ridiculous) white noise.
My McIntosh AV preamp offers compression settings and I try to use them, but frankly, the setup of these units is so complex they need to be professionally set up. Based on your suggestions, I will do two things: Push the center channel settings and try to find an expert to calibrate my system.
If that doesn't work, I will audition the Wisdoms.
I get it. My favorite film is Citizen Kane. Transformers and Marvel films are not really my cup of tea either. But there are plenty of other dynamic films that are not stupid comic book stuff.
I would put a stereo pair of Wisdom Audio speakers up against pretty much anything I have listened to. Again... the majority of my time at Wisdom was spent listening to just that. Stereo music of ALL types. If I could afford the LS4 models I would get them. Just amazing. The great thing about a speaker like these is that they play at lower levels with greater detail and presence than more traditional speakers. Just because they CAN go loud, doesn't mean you need to listen to them at that level. My evaluation of these speakers is on quality not "volume/loudness"
drewde- I get your (voluminous) arguments/observations, etc. I have heard good things about Wisdom Audio myself so I have no problem with a successful technology that you want to discuss. I know classical music has dynamic shifts etc. My only observation is that people are known to speak softly even to a whisper on a film which also contains "other" sequences with loud to extremely loud content as well. And I still maintain that 7.2 home theater is in fact very different than 2.0 music coming from small to medium to 600 lb./each floor standing speakers that assumes all the sound is coming from a bandstand or a stage. The 2.0 system has (99%) no conversations in any tone of voice in the mix. If Wisdom speakers sound phenominal that's great. I myself (just me!) prefer a movie like My Friend Godfrey or It Happened One Night to Transformers or another Marvel sequel. OK?
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
