Final-Audio New Series electrostatics

I have not but I am looking at them. What other ESL have you experience with?? 

Popori Audio, Sanders Sound, King Sound, ER Audio, Audiostatic and Acoustat.  Sound Lab through auditions only.  Dipole panels rule in my world.

Since I'm name dropping, forgot my years with Martin Logan Theos.  Never had the pleasure of ML full electrostatics.  I thoroughly enjoyed the Quad 2812 I've heard a t shows.  And yes, I've been at this for a few years.

I have the 35 with tekton subs and love it.crossed with 40 hz run with krell fpb 700 and rotated with mcintosh 1.25 kw and hegel h 30 a mono blocks .100 db and great sound. I do love the flat thin speakers.like you carver,magnepan,kingsound,infinity,soundlab,acoustat,sanders,emenint,wisdom audio,bohlender graebener,apogee ect.bryston,sublime,dbxand other electronic crossovers.enjoy the music.

Can you please share your thoughts on the ones that you have owned/auditioned, as well as your path to where you are currently. Would also love to know what amplification you have driven and are driving your speakers with; the type of music you listen to, and anything else you'd care to share.

I like my genesis and infinity irs v the best.but they are big and due to size need large rooms.most of the flat speakers need a subwoofer because thier drawback is little low frequency.they are fast  and responsive  start and stop quickly.that is why most ribbons are used in mid and tweet range. Momentum is mass x velocity so the less mass the better fast response to sound. This is why tekton uses his array pattern that sounds great.this is why beryllium is used in tweeters it pushes cone breakup past human hearing >20 db. The final panels are a great bang for the buck.you can fly into Phoenix AZ and listen.most flat speakers require big amps like 1 kw macs bryston 28b3 hegel h30 or d sonic m3 class d.class d is used on almost all base speakers with internal amps on the base. You could try the heil ess  it goes from 600 hz to 20 k. Enjoy the hunt

The new ps audio speakers have ribbons in thier mids and tweets that sound great.alot of speakers are using flat speakers more and more.

I have had the Final M12s for about 6 months and love them. They are every bit the "near full range electrostats", meaning transparency, coherency, speed, detail, and sounds great at all volume levels as my old but still working great Acoustat Spectra 22s. They also sound better off-axis so I don't feel the "head in a vice" issue (but maybe its my high frequency hearing reduction, now that I am older!) Thus far I believe that Final Audio is the high value electrostat company that Acoustats were in their day. It took a long time for the M12s to fully break in. Currently paired with SVS 2000 pro subwoofer for low bass. I also have smallish Martin Logan hybrids (Source is the model name) that I like very much in my bedroom system. I am considering the M35s since my listening room is large enough; the M12s do a great job filling the near field space.

I am very interested in Final and Potpori.   I currently have been running XStatic full-range electrostats for 30 years and am a total flat-panel dipole fan.   Last year, I updated my old Velodyne subs to Rhythmic and found that to be a superb match.  At one time I toyed with the idea of going to the ML Renaissance 15A, but after comparing them side by side, I elected to stick with my XStatics.

I heard the Potpori at the Florida Audio Fest last spring and was quite impressed.  I've not heard the Final.

I'd be keen to hear form anyone who has heard them compared to the ML.

I too am big fan of Final Audio.  I have the M12+’s.  I received them a few weeks ago and now they have ~150 hours on them and they sound in a word, TERRIFIC !  I have a modest listening space (10ft X 12ft) with the rear (behind my listening position) open into the kitchen area.  I was impressed at first with the bass as they go to 48hz however sound robust right down to that area.  They have opened up nicely in the ~150 hours and the mid-range and treble sound very transparent and fast.  I have to agree with accousticrat34 with his assessment of these speakers.  I also agree that the take a good while to break in.  The distributor says ~350 hours for full break in.  I’m less than 1/2 way there and I can’t think they’s sound any better than they do now.  I have mine paired with an SVS Micro3000 subwoofer which I crossover at 50hz with a 24db/octave slope and -15db volume and it meshes very well with the M12+’s.  For most of my listening I really don’t need a subwoofer to fully enjoy the music.  

Another thing that has impressed me is the subtle nuances in the music that I hadn’t heard prior.  I keep saying, "well I hadn’t heard that before" !  Like for instance instrument decay lasting longer than I’ve ever heard it on my other speakers.  This was one of the best stereo equipment purchases I have made in nearly my whole life in "Audiophileville" (50+ years)  If you have a small to normal size listening room, I believe the Model 12+’s would be just fine !  No need to go to the M15+’s or above, and I’d stick to the single panel ones as I don’t believe you’d need the models with the subwoofer unless you just want them integrated as a package.  One more important thing...  Ravi Velnati, the U.S distributor for Final Audio is a great representative of this product line.  If you’re contemplating the purchase of one of their fine speakers, you should give him a call.  

I was very curious about these speakers as I really liked their footprint. I have a bit of a narrow room and working with Ravi, who provided great support throughout the process, I was able to get a Model 5 without the bass speaker, which I did not need as I use an active crossover with my distributed bass array. Unfortunately I was not able to really appreciate the speakers as one of them was damaged coming over from the Netherlands and had a constant buzz. From what I could hear though, given the cost, these are high value speakers. 

Since then I was able to get my direct drive set-up working again. This is a pair of panels with the same footprint as the M5, powered by a direct drive amplifier so there is no step up transformer between the amp and speaker. The amplifier puts 5,000 volts directly on the panel. The system was designed by Roger Modjeski and only a handful if that were sold. I own his personal system.

The thing about Final is that they also can be powered by direct drive amplification. Twinstatic Audio in the Netherlands can build such an amplifier to be used with Final, which is an option I was looking into. Eliminating the transformer really enhances the sound and lets you realize what your speakers can really do. 

Long ago, I owned the Final 0.4’s.   My Carver Research Lightstar Reference amp drove them beautifully.   Powered subs filled in the LF.    The customer service was phenomenal.  During a move, a panel was damaged.  The U.S. distributor quickly sent me a matched pair of replacements. Kudos to Final Audio for their continuing R&D.

Very pleased to hear from fellow Final owners.  I have been enjoying my M35 since January.  Yes, the diaphragm material does require a long break in period.  Left mine on playing music at normal volume for weeks.  350 hours before serious listening.  Majority of change within the first 190 hours.  I ultimately intend to do a Final Atmos setup.  Have four M1 and a pair of M5.  No center yet.  Seriously considering the Tekton subwoofer towers.  That is a lot of speaker in any room.

I concur with others that working with Ravi has been a great experience. Its funny that there are not more biplanar fans out there. Since I first heard Maggies, MartinLogans and especially Acoustat electrostats (35 years ago) it has become difficult to accept regular dynamic speakers as a "disappearing source" that electrostats usually offer. I just hear music reproduced by boxes, with all the flaws that boxes and ports tend to offer. Electrostatic listening is an immersive experience that tends to let me pretend I am in the studio or at the live concert rather than hearing it reproduced. So few showrooms to allow folks this kind of listening experience!

For the record, I do not have a favorite.  Apologies Ravi.  My joy is from the journey.  Some of us are blessed with the ability to sample.  Thank you ecommerce and previously owned.   All the designs mentioned should satisfy long term.  Each design has strengths and compromises.  Intellectually, the segmented, flat panel has the advantage.  I am in agreement with Acousticrat34 on the Final value leader statement.  And I have always listened off axis.  Even with the Sanders Sound setup.  Most of the more recent designs have reduced current demands from our amplifiers.  Please note; the headroom a high wattage high current amp provides is important and has no substitute.  

Might as well get the spelling of Hungarian speaker manufacturer "Popori" correct if interested.  A friend of mine is totally impressed with his pair after decades with modified stacked Acoustats.   

@dgarretson  I attended the 2025 Tampa Audio Expo and wanted to hear the Popori speakers, however they were demoing the high end one and I wanted to hear the more mid-level one.  They seemed more interested in catering to those who wanted to hear the high end speakers.  I am very happy with my Final Audio M12+'s !  

First post, this thread drew me to comment. I have a pair of Final M35’s on order with Ravi. They caught my interest from AXPONA 2024. I believe he had the M15 on show there with some Tekton sub towers. I’m a lifelong Acoustat fan and liked what I heard enough to put in an order not too long after the show. Yes, this is more than a year later, but I have had a big move come up and paused my order so I wouldn’t have to move the M35’s too. They should be arriving in a few weeks. I already had enough to move (7 pairs of various Acoustat models).

When I say I am a lifelong Acoustat fan, my father bought a pair of Acoustats in the late 70’s. I grew up around those and I still have that pair. Having models with the direct drive servo amps and interfaces, I tend to agree that direct drive is better, but my Spectra sets, which only work via interfaces, can be very good with enough power. The problem with direct drive is very limited amplifier options. The Acoustat direct drive servo amps can be updated and taken really far, but we’re still talking about hotrodding amplifiers that were mostly built in the 70’s (I think production of those amps ended in 1980 or 1981). There are plenty of high quality robust amplifiers available today to make the interfaces sing today, but it’s my belief that the interface itself is a weak link holding things back.

So, I’m looking forward to getting and living with my M35’s to see how they stack up to my reference. Oh and the move has provided the benefit of a higher ceiling. Now I can fit the stacked Acoustats, so my collection will likely continue to grow. I’ll finally have room to build some 8-panel (per side) versions. I have heard a setup running 17 panels per side and it was glorious. I never would have thought that would work, but it did. And it was in a fairly small room (considering how big it was to even fit that many speakers). There’s no replacement for displacement and that much surface area extended the bass incredibly low. That was all using interfaces and VTL tube amps to boot.

Welcome to all taking the time to post to this thread.  Ravi is fundamental to Final-Audio's success in the US.  The M series electrostatics will bring fond memories to Acoustat owners.  Similar voicing to my ears.

"Since I’m name dropping, forgot my years with Martin Logan Theos"

Presently using Theos.

Optimized with decent gear/subwoofer reinforcement/placement they’re quite good for what they are. 

That has to be a tremendous upgrade, what color frames did you choose?

I look forward to my turn for some proper stats. Can’t imagine going back to conventional boxes-Ive heard plenty of great sounding SOTA. MBL maybe the only other design  that seems to blow my mind.

Unobtanium, but the aesthetic is a deal breaker for me anywho. 😂

Enjoy them.

Loved the Theos.  Well balanced hybrid.    

Lusted for MBL for quite awhile.  Chose German Physiks HRS130.  Slightly more coherent to my ears.  More of one voice.  I am a sucker for a single extended range driver.  Like the LFT8 main driver.  

More on the MBL.  Unobtanium is correct.  The only way to have the Radialstrahler cover most of the audio is their top model.  All their other models introduce traditional cone drivers up into the lower midrange.  It does work but makes them less interesting to me.  Still, they rule the cool mountain.  And they do sound fantastic!  

Yes mark200mph, love my pair of ESS Large Heil drivers.  Extremely detailed and airy.  I perceive that they are very low in harmonic distortion.  Much like the Purifi drivers that sound thin at first until your brain realizes that it is just how clean the driver is compared to others.   Same as electrostatics.

I believe I got the second pair of M35s sold in the US.  They have replaced the Magnepan 20.7s I was using previously.  Sonically these are great sounding speakers with some limitations.  I have had trouble with arcing in the panels playing classical music at very loud levels.  It is unclear if that is problem specific to my pair or a general reason for concern.  Oddly, it has only occurred with symphonic classical music.  I have also run into buzzing on a couple of tracks, typically with lower frequency stringed instruments, i.e. cello or bass guitar.  It seems likely that the panel is vibrating in the frame but it is possible there is some sort of resonance in the panel.  Again, I have no idea if that is limited to the first models that were manufactured or occurs more widely.  So far there have only been four tracks over many hundreds of hours of listening that have been an issue but ... In my conversations with Ravi he has promised that those problems with my speakers will be addressed sometime in the future so I am not overly concerned and the speakers really do sound fantastic.

Not only is that brand name a little confusing given the iconic Japanese brand (mostly headphones?)... why would one go all this random stuff if one is going electrostatic? Why not Maggies or Martin Logan?

Just a to clarify a point.  Magnepan does not and never has manufactured an electrostatic speaker.  Magnepan is a magneto-static design more like a traditional cone or dome driver.  Eminent Technology is magneto-static.   Both sound. fundamentally different that an electrostatic.  I own and enjoy both magneto-static and electrostatic designs.   Each involves pros and cons.  

Full disclosure, I own the first Final M35 imported into the US as a retail sale.  The M35 has a somewhat different design than the remainder of the M series.   The design differences were required to extend the low frequency.  Like others, my original order was for the M15.  After research and conversations with the importer, I changed it to the M35.  I have no regrets. 

what color frames did you choose?

I know this wasn't directed at me, but maybe this adds to the color of the conversation: white. I've been on something of a kick lately with buying white gear when the opportunity exists.

Sonically these are great sounding speakers with some limitations.  I have had trouble with arcing in the panels playing classical music at very loud levels.

Could you share the tracks and what you mean by "very loud"? I do listen to classical often, but I don't listen loudly. I rarely play where peaks above about 85 dB, but sometimes the occasion calls for loud :) .

Not only is that brand name a little confusing given the iconic Japanese brand 

I don't recall the details, but the brand is fairly tenured. I think they are over 25 years old, but Ravi is helping to reintroduce the brand to the US market. If you search, you can find some of the old speakers come up for sale occasionally. There was something about Philips buying the brand and letting it flounder and Martin coming back and reviving things.

why would one go all this random stuff if one is going electrostatic?

You've gotta hear electrostats to understand. Preferably some large ones setup well, but it's not strictly necessary. I'm not saying you'll like it, I've encountered plenty of folks that don't -- it's too jarringly different for them. Additionally, as with anything, brands tend to have their own flavor. I am not really a fan of Martin Logan's flavor, but I've heard them setup in some really great demos. Both 2 channel and multi-channel setup, even including their Neoliths. It could very well have been the source gear I didn't like. Electrostats have a clarity and transient speed that's difficult to match with other driver types. The coherence of a single driver is also uncommon, but that can be heard with other drivers. There are trade-offs, of course, like all technology. I was literally raised around electrostats (Acoustats specifically), so that's my reference.

I have a funny anecdote that plays into the electrostat stereotypes. At AXPONA 2024, when I got to hear the M15s, I was in the room and Martin gave a little spiel about the technology and what they were doing and then they started to play some music that I'm not familiar with. I think it was from SACD. The fellow sitting next to me (I didn't/don't know him) starts asking how low in frequency the speakers play. There were sub towers, so good question. Ravi unplugged the towers and you could then hear how low the M15s were going. This fellow started "flipping out". He was gobsmacked. He stood up and sat down a bunch of times. He walked up to the panels (both sides) and kept going on and on about how he didn't think that was possible with electrostats. I've never seen anyone so beside themselves about hearing something. It was humorous. I wished there were more electrostats at the show to hear the different flavors.

@madtrader I'm not really sure it would be responsible of me to share the two tracks that caused arcing in my M35s.  I have no idea if there is something specific about that music/recording that might damage other speakers.  It is possible there is clipping or square waves or something specific to the music.  Anyhow, the first time it happened I was entertaining an audiophile who wanted to hear orchestral music at "realistic" levels which for him meant well over 90 dBc, much louder than I normally listen.  The second track I was playing with peaks in the high 80s I would guess, again loud but not something that I felt was inappropriate for the music.  Remember live symphonic or jazz performances frequently have peaks over 100 dB.

This track has unusually deep and reverberant bass guitar and it caused buzzing in one of the panels and it was probably playing in the mid 80s dBC.  I imagine dBA would be at least 10 decibels less and when music is this bass heavy it often needs to be played at a louder SPL to sound correct to our ears.  I suspect any speaker that had a low frequency resonance might vibrate to this track.  https://open.qobuz.com/track/2574377

This second track is one of my standard reference tracks and I never heard an issue with it until I tested some cables a friend lent me that have a much more pronounced bass response and I heard buzzing in the left panel in the first 20 seconds of the song on the plucked cello (?).  I don't hear that on my second system or earbuds so I assume it is the panel but I would be curious how you hear it.  That is with peaks around 83 dBC slow.  https://open.qobuz.com/track/11235714

I am a big fan of the M35's bass response which is much better than the Magnepan 20.7s.  However I do use subwoofers that I think are well integrated.  But when I played this track I felt the bass was a little too prominent so I muted the subs and I was surprised to find the very low nearly subsonic bass didn't just diminish, it simply didn't exist anymore.  It points out the limits of even well designed electrostatics and I suspect quite a lot of conventional designs as well.  My guess is that unless you have subs or speakers that go down into the mid 20 Hz region you won't even know that there is information there.  https://open.qobuz.com/track/127028098  And that track doesn't cause any problems I hear with my M35s. 

As I said, I have had my M35s for 7 months and played more than 1000 hours of music and I have only heard issues with those 4 tracks.

@pinwa  I was at an audiophile society gathering a few months ago and we were listening to different genre of music favorites through a great system consisting of Luxman monobloc’s and Quad I believe 2729 speakers.  The music presented was some of the best I had heard it.  One member suggested a specific bass track be played and when the host played it at a moderately loud volume, there was a loud, scary "flapping" kind of resonance coming from the speakers !  We were all surprised and it was fortunate that the host muted it immediately.  Luckily, there appeared to be no damage to the speakers, but the host was particularly unnerved about it.  Apparently, there is a low frequency resonant point on those speakers that the specific cut of music hit.  The host said he had never heard that on anything he’s played, and he’s had these speakers for a few years.  I have the Final Model 12+’s and am still in the 350 hour break in process, but I haven’t experienced that with my M12+’s even playing Bela Fleck’s "Flight of the Cosmic Hippo" fairly loudly.  I’m surprised at the bass output of these M12+’s and so far, am very pleased with the sound.  I hope I don’t run into any arcing when playing loudly !  

Hi All...  Just thought I'd post a picture of my M12+'s in my listening space...  I special ordered them with the clear panels and really like them that way.  

How do we get to the photos?   

Thanks @pinwa , for the tracks.

I also appreciate seeing other owners out there (although mine haven't arrived yet). I wondered how the market penetration has been. I've seen almost no coverage of Final's speakers aside from mentions or slightly more than mentions in show coverage. I did run into one of the professional reviewers at CanJam Dallas last year. We were standing in line waiting a turn at the Warwick Acoustics (electrostat headphone brand) isolation box/booth. This guy said he'd heard them at one of the shows and wanted to get a pair in to review, just hadn't gotten that worked out yet. Hopefully that arrangement does and that there are more.

I have no idea about the demand side but production on the M35s and shipment into the US has been very slow.  I believe the first M35 was delivered in December and I got the second unit towards the end of January.  I suspect there are still only a handful of units here but I don't know that for a fact and I have no idea what shipments in to Europe have been like.  It is a  brand new product and technology for Final so I think it has taken time to increase production.  They have also run into some issues with customs that have created problems.

Dear FINAL Owners and Audiophiles,

SunMoon / Ravi / HighResHiFi joining the conversation to share insights and the fun journey of launching FINAL in the US market as a lifelong Planar Audiophile with 27 years of Electrostatic, Planar Magnetic and Ribbon speaker ownership.

Had to let the conversation brew for a week as I completed my work deadlines related to my day job as an Automotive Engineering Strategy Consultant.

Since we are discussing highend audio and not politics, I dont think we need to hide behind screen names, so some introductions are in order.

• Many thanks to riverdinaudio / Hal, my very first retail Silver M35 customer for starting the discussion so we can all share useful and enlightening experiences that will enrich the ownership while helping curious audiophiles gain a deeper understanding of FINALs.
• pinwa / Paul, 2nd M35 owner in custom Red Metallic finish.
• mark200mph / Mark, owner of the Silver show demo M35s together with the Silver TEKTON 7-10 Line source Subwoofer towers.
• acousticrat34 / Len, owner of Black M12s.
• madtrader / Dustin, soon to be owner of the custom White M35s
• liquid sound / John, owner of Silver M12s with custom Clear Frost panels.

There are many other FINAL owners who may eventually join the conversation as we go, 

Let's go have some fun now.

History and Launch ramp up:

FINAL had a successful US launch at the AXPONA 2024 with the full model line up on demonstration with Coda 16 and Coda 8 Class A amplification. M35 did not make it due to crate damage at the UPS warehouse in Netherlands

FINAL's 35th anniversary flagship, the M35 debuted in June 24 at THE SHOW in Costa mesa, California to high acclaims!  Check out all the fun YouTube videos online with some extremely dynamic demos including the RAP music demo track on request by Audiophile Junkie.

The M35 has been the most popular model thus far in the US, followed by M12, both Full Range Electrostats.  Production of the M35 did not start until December 24 due to FINAL moving to a bigger production facility while refining the prototypes of the elegantly designed complex Aluminum extrusion side frame profiles.  These extremely rigid lightweight aluminum profiles combined with the acrylic panels are the reason why the M35s are the ligthest Full Range Electrostatic speakers in the market.

For perspective, @ 66lbs each, the flagship M35 @ 82 inches tall and 26 inches wide is only 10 lbs heavier than Magnepan's smallest floor stander, the LRS @ 56 lbs!

M35 was particularly suited to the listening tastes and preferences of the American market audiophiles with the ability to play any kind of music with resolution, authority and dynamics.

Many of the current FINAL owners in the US market are introverted and not particularly active on the forums unlike some of us!

M35 was launched in Europe this spring with great success, the owner / founder of VITUS Audio has a pair in White (Dustin) as well as Siltech!

Many of the current EU owners of the M15 and M12 are upgrading to the M35, as they auditioned the M35s at launch events through out EU.

There are some useful observations and lessons to be learnt from the differences between the EU market and the US market which I will elaborate further,

It was unfortunate that the launch of the M35 was affected by the TRUMP TARIFF DRAMA,

Some of the crates had been opened by CUSTOMS to inspect for CHINA MADE parts seeking the opportunity to apply additional tariffs while giving us the excuse of searching for Fentanyl.  The electronics boxes including transformer PCB wiring had been moved and abused, in the process damaging the speaker sets. Damaged customer shipments had to be replaced at our cost with no recourse from Customs! FINAL had meetings with UPS to resolve these issues with customs which added to the delays in shipments.  The shipments had to be held until agreements were reached. The strategy is working now and we have not had any issues with Customs for the last several shipments since June 25. 

Thankfully, many are saying that THE END IS NEAR for Trump Tariffs!

" Popori " as a Brand has models of ESL Speaker that are very very expensive to buy into, a substantial sum of money to have a ESL Speaker at hand.

How Popori compares as a comparative purchase price to Final is an unknown to myself.

How both the above Brands compares to a Quad ESL Speaker is known when using the Popori Brand, which shows that the Popori Brand to purchase is considerably more expensive than a Quad ESL.

As an individual who has heard all Quad ESL's as their original and some Quad ESL's having been modified, but as of yet not familiarised with the latest production Quad X Model.

I find it difficult to see where much more is on offer from other ESL Designs, especially when up to 5 x the asking price is required over the cost of the most expensive Quad ESL's I am quite familiar with.

I am not yet familiarised with the Quad X Models, but have had feed back from friends who have recently heard the X Model. Without having these side by side compared using familiar Amplification, my friends failed to discover discernible differences from their recollections of earlier production Quad ESL Models. 

If interest is being shown in ESL Speakers, the Quad ESL's are ones worthwhile having on a Shortlist for further investigation.       

@pindac Just to be clear, you haven't heard any of the Popori or Final speakers, and I'm guessing you haven't heard the latest models of the Clarisys, Diptyque or Alsyvox speakers, but you somehow feel qualified to express an opinion about the superiority of the Quad's?  I have heard the other brands (except Alsyvox) and they are all excellent, albeit in slightly different ways.  

I'm not sure if it is arrogance, ignorance or simply the fact that with 3300 posts you feel the need to share your opinion about everything under the sun but I for one don't appreciate your "contribution" here.

@pinwa Firstly, my reference to Quad ESL's is not the first reference to the Quad Brand made within this Thread, there are other Posts referencing more than one other Brand other than Final Audio that are producing ESL Speakers.

My comments offered was prompted by another Poster making their experiences of ESL Speakers known, along with their referencing how they thoroughly enjoyed their experience of a Quad ESL Model, and one which I am very very familiar with..

My own input is about how Pricing has been discovered to be substantially different between Brands producing ESL Speakers and a Quad ESL Speaker Model.

I was not 'off topic', when the overall content within this Thread is introducing other Brands, revisiting the Quad Brand, is totally acceptable as the Thread is now about encouraged to be off topic from Final Audio Products and covers a broader range of Brands producing ESL Speakers.

My own contribution explains my experiences of One Brand where most encounters are in homes in resident systems I am very familiar with, with such regular experiences had over a long duration, my assessments have in my view, a kudos, and worthwhile making available to a wider reader base.

My ESL experiences is not limited to one Brand, but these other Brands Models  will have been encountered at an event, where when encountered are used in a unfamiliar system and surrounding. I could have added additional Brands to the Thread, but remain not be able to report in a way that I feel would have kudos. Such past encounters, now only memories, have little value as a means to offering up an assessment for a wider reader base to ponder the info offered.  

My Post does not recommend any Brand, the content is to encourage considering Retail Pricing Differences and encourages extension of Investigation to produce a increased base info for oneself.

As always, If a Forum Member is not able to appreciate the content of another Forum Members Post within a Thread, that as the outcome is fine by myself, even when it is my own offered content receiving expressed discontent.

In this case, the Thread is about Final Audio which I do not know the Retail Price. Content offered by myself, flagged up the difference in Retail Price between Quad ESL and Popori ESL's, which are both Brands that are not included in the Threads Topic, both are Alien to the OP's initial inquiry- Yes / No? I can't help but think, the follow up post as a response as a response to my Post is unusually negatively reactive.

In the case those who are Members of Onlookers and do not like content added to Threads by 'pindac', those who are finding contributions repellent. Please scroll on past the contribution offered. 'pindac' has encouraged this as a practice on many a occasion, 'pindac', is not wanting to make any forum members interaction unpalatable. 

'pindac' has seen the content of all Posts within this Thread, and has certainly not added a content to unbalance the info already made known by others.

The non participant onlooker of this Thread, if expressing an interest in ESL Speakers, who may be at the place a purchase is looking attractive, along with all the Brands referred to within this Thread, now as a result of the latest added content, has an increased info to consider, albeit, Price Comparisons Retail vs Price Comparisons for Used Items, when creating their shortlist.  

Thrilled to see the excellent engagement and participation with great insights from all participants thus far!

@pindac, in this age of AI based search capability, all it takes is a google search / web query to get details on pricing for any brand or any model if you would like to dig deeper,

HEARING IS BELIEVING!  There is no substitute to auditioning, let me know if you would like to audition any of the FINALs.

Every ESL design is different by the technology chosen and the execution details,

The Devil is always in the details,

Example:

• Panel stators versus Wire stators,
• Line source radiation versus Point source radiation pattern,
• Mylar diaphragm versus Teonex diaphragm,
• Curved panels versus Faceted segments versus Flat panels,
• Continuous radiation pattern versus segmented radiation pattern....

All of them offer different sonic flavors, just like different types of Scotch , Wine or Beer!

I agree the devil is in the details and the technology chosen varies among manufacturers. While we can talk about stators, panels, diaphragms, and radiation patterns, all of which are important, one of the key pieces of the design that seems to be getting over looked are the transformers that convert the voltage. Peter Walker's original Quad ESL used excellent transformers, not sure how Quads current transformers stack up.

I have owned Acoustat Model 2s as well and will say that removing the transformer interface and using Acoustat's servo amps to directly drive the speaker made a big difference, and I will readily admit that the input section of that amplifier was not of the best design. In fact I was in the process of modifying mine with the help of Roger Modjeski, who designed a direct replacement tube input circuit for the Acoustat servos. However, the project was never completed due to his diminishing health and subsequent death. Unfortunately I was denied the opportunity to compare FINAL M5s to my QUAD ESLs (I have 3 pair including the 57QA: https://www.quad-musik-shop.de/en/p/esl57-qa-elektrostatics).

Roger Modjeski used to work for Harold Beveridge whose Model 2 and 2SW are somewhat legendary with their unique lens that allowed for amazing dispersion and soundstage realism. Unfortunately Beveridge was not much known for their reliability. However, Roger took what he learned, did additional research, and I am happy to say that after years of trying, I have finally figured out how to set up and use his design, featuring an all tube direct drive amplifier - no transformer interface. Personally, while other technology elements of the design are important, my feeling is in many case with ESLs the transformer is the weakest link. 

I agree with clio9 that the transformers (and associated circuits/parts) have a tremendous impact on the quality of sound through electrostats. In my many pairs of Acoustats I have Spectra’s, which of the Acoustats are more like Finals (electrically segmented) which were only available using transformer based interfaces, earlier interface driven models that aren’t electrically segmented (like the Model 3), and original direct drive servo amplifier driven Acoustats (Model X and the Monitors). Amongst my sets of those direct drive servo amplifiers I have fairly stock and highly modified amplifiers. Modern amplifiers can make those Spectras sing. The middle generation interface driven models can play extremely well. The direct drive amplifiers are magic.

A fellow I bought a pair of Spectra 33’s from had never heard the servo amps, but was a big electrostatic and horn lover. He actually ran Sound Labs for some years before switching back to Acoustats. Curiousity eventually got to him enough to buy a pair of very nice, highly modified servo amps to drive some Model 6’s. He was blown away by how great they sounded.

Those servo amps got some bad early press that was really undeserved. They are fine. Stock amps aren’t bad. The direct drive part is their magic. The later builds were better than the earlier ones, but with a little work they can be greatly improved. If you want to go crazy it’s kind of amazing how far they can be taken and there are folks out there still coming up with improvements. To me, the most amazing thing that stands out for Acoustats vs other electrostats is the panel reliability. The newest Acoustat panels are maybe 30 years old. The oldest are approaching 50. And nobody is rebuilding the panels. They just keep trucking. They are certainly NOT perfect panels. It’s easy to pick out things I wish were better, but it’s hard to argue against demonstrated long term reliability.

To bring this back around to the Finals — part of what got me to order a pair are some of the details that I think are going to make these long life panels. The teonex, the low bias voltage, and the process and coating used to deposit the conductive layer. I’m hoping these turn out to be as long lasting.

The arcing report above catches my attention. I’m hoping to find out more.

As said I have not recommended a Brand and only referred to a Brand, as it was already included in Posts prior to my own.

The Thread is not restricted to one Brand of Speaker from the earliest of Posts.

I know as well as anybody with a decent amount time behind them in using Audio Equipment that differences are easily able to be found in comparisons between designs. Substantial amount of time has been spent being participant as a contributor to creating occasions for comparing Audio Devices across different systems. I may have been blessed with hearing more manifestations of synergy than many others have been blessed with.

I stand by the statement made in relation to the latest superseded Quad ESL Models " I find it difficult to see where much more is on offer from other ESL Designs ", I did not say more wasn't on offer!  

Taking up a offer of a Listen would be great, but these Speakers are not seen to have a support in the UK, so extensive travel would be needed, maybe it could be looked into for when I next drive through mainland Europe.

The Whiskey - Wine - Beer thing is not my Cup of Tea, hence, the Substances have no connection to Sound and I am not relating to this analogy in any way. 

I do get being mildly intoxicated can create a sense of euphoria and possibly make a experience seem much more than it actually is, but is this mindset a good place to be when assessing sound and gathering info to be reported on to a wide audience?

Excellent, it was an analogy meant to reflect different flavors of sound!

Sense of humor varies by the individual as always!

@pindac 

Recommend contacting FINAL directly at final-audio.com for audition opportunities,

I know FINAL has multiple customers including very recent buyers in UK,

Cheers! 

@madtrader Arcing is one of the common problems with electrostatic speakers and modern designs, including Final Audio, typically include various protective measures to prevent that.  In the case of my M35s one of those protections is a fast blow fuse that is designed to blow when the speaker is being overdriven.  Unfortunately, my M35 was shipped with the wrong fuse.  Instead of the 1 amp fuse that apparently went into subsequent speakers, my speaker had a 3.15 amp fuse that permitted me to overdrive the speaker.  I only experienced arcing on two tracks played well above my normal listening levels and that was when I had the incorrect fuse installed.  Final has told me it shouldn't be a problem now that I am using a 1 amp fuse.  I generally listen around 75-85 dBC and at those levels I have never had a problem with arcing.  And I occasionally listen with peaks going into the mid 90's without any issue.  But if you are trying to achieve truly deafening levels I suspect no electrostatic speaker would be the ideal choice.  At Axpona two years ago I was listening to the $250K Borresen speakers after hours and they cranked those up to 105 dBC on a sustained level.  That was impressive but also fairly painful and I would never recommend listening at those levels LOL.

Unfortunately people do not really understand that electrostatic speakers are very different than boxes with dynamic drivers in one critical area. That is the level of detail that an electrostatic can produce can be done at much lower listening levels (high efficiency horns being an exception). It’s not uncommon for people to try to drive ESLs as hard as they may drive  dynamic drivers given those dynamic drivers need the power to produce the same level of detail. That’s a recipe for disaster whether the ESL has a protection circuit or not.

The original Quad ESL was limited to a 35V maximum, but I have experienced many trying to drive them with amplifiers with much higher voltage ratings. The original Quad II designed for the ESLs was rated at 17 watts per channel. The Music Reference RM-10 was double that but met the 35V demand the bass panels would tolerate before arcing. It just so happened that Roger Modjeski owned Quad ESLs and so had the opportunity to  research the effects his amplifier had with these speakers. Building an amp that worked well with his Quads was not his intent, but he got lucky (the amp was built to work well with Vandersteen 2s, a dynamic driver speaker). Fused, clamp boards, what have you in terms of protection, what is important is understanding how the ESL speaker can best be driven to provide the best sound and what type of amplification and sound levels are required to do that. 

@clio09 I agree that the M35s don't need to be played as loud as my Magnepan 20.7s in order to open up, but that doesn't mean that they don't sound good at higher volumes or can't play loud.

I think you need to be careful extrapolating from the older technology in brands like Quad or Soundlab or Martin Logan when you are talking about Final or Popori speakers.  Both of those brands have been specifically designed to overcome the limitations in dynamics, frequency response, and dispersion that have historically been a problem with electrostatics.  All you need to do is look underneath the socks on new Quads or Soundlab to see that they are fundamentally the same technology that was used 30 or 40 years ago.  And Martin Logan continues to rely on curved panels to widen the sweet spot.and woofers to extend the bass response.

@pinwa I think you misunderstood my post but no problem. Personally, new technology or old, my interest is ultimately how it sounds. For Quad and Sound Lab, if something is working well why change it. For those developing new methods of designing ESLs that's great, but to the point @pindac made, these speakers cost quite a bit more, so the new technology should deliver the equivalent value to cost ratio and be reliable designs.

Both my ESLs can be played louder than my room can handle. I have heard lots of ESLs and I just prefer my Quads, their limitations and all. My other set is based on older technology with a few new twists. The biggest difference though is using direct drive amplifiers. Why none of the newer ESL manufacturers are designing their speakers to be used with direct drive amps is something I am curious about.

Many of the current FINAL owners in the US market are introverted and not particularly active on the forums unlike some of us!

I'm very introverted, but this thread drew me out.

Arcing is one of the common problems with electrostatic speakers and modern designs, including Final Audio, typically include various protective measures to prevent that.

I know what arcing is. I've heard of it happening to folks, but I've never experienced with Acoustats in the 40+ years I've been around them.

I generally listen around 75-85 dBC and at those levels I have never had a problem with arcing.

That's where I listen too, maybe even a touch higher than I do.

And I occasionally listen with peaks going into the mid 90's without any issue.

Another anecdote. Last year seemed to be Chicago themed for me. I'd never been and then I had 5 trips. On one of those I managed to catch a Chicago Symphony Orchestra (CSO) performance at their hall downtown. It was marvelous. It turns out there is a recording of one of the pieces they played by the CSO in that hall decades ago (so likely not the same players, and conductor). So I queued it up at home and listened. First of all, In the hall was louder than I prefer, but to try and see if my system could do it justice I cranked the volume up to where I thought it matched what I heard in the hall. This was with my Acoustat Monitors (4 panel speakers) driven by some heavily modified direct drive servo amps. It was very close. I think the imaging in my room was a little fuzzier than what I experienced in the hall. It still imaged, but I think I was able to pick out placement a bit better in the hall (of course maybe it helped that I could actually see the players). Everything else was there. I had the dynamics, the tonality, the volume, the detail. I was very happy. But, I've now moved and that room is gone. I'm starting over from scratch on the setup.

I have heard lots of ESLs and I just prefer my Quads

I was in the same camp with my Acoustats, even though the different models also sound different. My 4 panel Acoustats sound warmer than my 3 panel Acoustats. My Spectra series Acoustats have higher frequency extension (at least with strong enough amps) and better imaging than my non-Spectra series Acoustats. I think the key thing to take away there is for folks to keep in mind that specific implementation is just as important as fundamental theory of operation. We can't completely generalize away all electrostats as sounding the same or even having the same capabilities. Value is then at least one more step away from that. If you value midrange, and someone else values top end sparkle, you're going to come to different conclusions on which electrostat is any good. I think of Acoustats as a hell of a deal, but that's in-part because they're 30+ year old gear and the manufacturer is gone. If you get ahold of set now, it's likely you're not the second owner, but the fourth (or more). I'm happy we have a diversity of brands and offerings actually on the market. I will continue playing with my Acoustat gear, but I've bought into Final to see if they're "spiritual" successor to what Acoustat was in the marketplace. I anxiously await hearing Popori as well.

Why none of the newer ESL manufacturers are designing their speakers to be used with direct drive amps is something I am curious about.

I think Acoustat serves as a warning. They did that with their first models. The marketplace wasn't so accommodating. Audiophiles want to bring their own gear. They want mix and match to their preferences. At best you treat them like active speakers and traditionally those haven't sold as well to audiophiles. Acceptance of large speakers isn't high so we're a niche of a niche. If you need to sell well enough to be a viable company you need to work in terms of what the market expects to be able to do.

Twinstatic Audio in the Netherlands can build such an amplifier to be used with Final, which is an option I was looking into.

I'm actually quite keen to see if we could do some direct-drive on the Finals. It's my understanding that Twinstatic's amplifiers are highly modified Acoustat designs, but I've seen so very little discussion on them over the years. Their page mentioning Finals predates these new models in Final's re-introduction to the US market, so I don't know how different these new speakers configuration is from the old Finals. Is that still something the Twinstatic amps could be configured to drive? If so could some of the Acoustat direct drive amps be reconfigured to do the same and how hard would it be? I know there have been folks use them to drive other ESLs. I've even talked to a guy that used a modified SoundLab interface on his Acoustats.

@madtrader I owned a pair of Acoustat 2+2s.  When I auditioned them at a friends house I thought they sounded fantastic and asked the guy how much he was selling them for he said $2000 and without thinking or any further research I ended up buying them.  As soon as I got them home I knew I had made a mistake.  Lovely midrange but terrible bass and mid-bass and rolled off highs.  I ended up selling them a couple of years later for $600.  Live and learn LOL.

2+2 are a model I've not owned yet. Until recently, I didn't have the necessary ceiling height. I have heard some really sing, though. A friend had some about 25 years ago that he drove with the direct-drive amps. He had them in a brick and glass room with like 16' ceilings. Very nice, but that was a long time ago. A couple of years ago I heard another pair in a much smaller room, but driven by some stout VTL amps through interfaces and they were very nice. I know they're quite capable of bass. There's a pair of monitors (also 4 panel, just only side-by-side wide) I heard setup in a concrete and brick room (with direct drive amps) that surprised me with it's concussive capability. It actually hit you in the chest more like a dynamic driver can. Never experienced that before or since with any sort of dipole. My setups never hit hard, but certainly go low enough. In my previous room, I had a 29Hz mode my room would ring at and my speakers would ring it quite readily. My digital gear I could notch that out and it portrayed fantastic texture down low. But I also don't listen particularly loud.