toddverrone,
Once you figure out the weight of your Rega and wooden plinth, you'll have another decision to make, IMO.
The standard thought would be to go with 4 springs suited to the weight of your equipment. Here's another thought...what about three springs? Depending on the weight, 3 springs will give you a somewhat horizontal isolation effect in addition to the vertical because it won't be as stable as a 4 spring approach. Of coarse you can buy four and try each way. You won't be out much money. Food for thought?
Later, you can try cones under your wooden plinth as well/and/or some sort of discs under the springs. I use carbon fiber discs at some locations, dependent upon the final sound. Lots of options.
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@slaw never mind. I read your earlier posts and saw you mentioned machina dynamica. I'll check them out |
I thought I could just do the math and buy springs with the correct specs, but trying to find a source will be the hard part. Hence my inquiry. |
Ah, got it. Right now my rega rests on a wooden plinth that is resting on a partially inflated inner tube on my credenza. Getting rid of rubber would mean I need a new method of vertical seismic isolation for the plinth. Hence my spring inquiry..
Also, my tube pre amp is on a wooden plinth on an inner tube. So I'll need some springs there too.. |
toddverrone,
Could you expand on what your application for "springs" is for, etc?
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@slaw would you recommend springs instead? I'm not willing to drop a lot of coin, so switching to springs seems like something I'd be willing to try. Any recommendations? |
dlcockrum,
Thanks for the laugh! ( of coarse I meant (3) decades). I'm glad all of you are willing to put up with me, most of the time.
Happy listening.
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Good stuff Slaw. I want to get rid of the last of the rubber in my system, the inner tubes in the original Seismic platforms. I have been planning on getting some of Geoffs springs, and perhaps some of the current Townshend Seismic Pods. I find the Pods more than a little overpriced, but what else is new?! I too had a VPI HW-19, and considered it about as good as a suspended-subchassis design could go. But you're right---that MDF platform was it's weakness. I never heard the later acrylic version, having moved on to the Townshend Rock table, which certainly doesn't have THAT problem! |
Totem395 2-21-2017
Does the the issue arise even when not using the sub?
Miner42, I don't think this question has been answered. Also, where is the sub located relative to the turntable and relative to nearby walls, and what is its rolloff frequency set to? Regards, -- Al |
"in my 30 + decades in audio".
Slaw, you are the audio Rock of Ages. What was your system like before the discovery of electricity? ;>) Kidding!
Dave
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I wanted to tell miner42 that, while he had the upgraded feet for his tt, that in it's center is rubber! That is what connects, (forget that) Traps! the resonances by not allowing a freeflow of these vibrations!
Rubber is not your friend!
This is certainly not his main concern. It is, a valid point.
There, I said it.
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@toddverrone,
I cannot think of ANY area of isolation in my 30 + decades in audio where rubber (innertube) doesn't degrade the joy of listening!
Forget about the idea of the whether maple or teak is the culprit. It is the RUBBER!
Happy listening!
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miner42,
Try replacing your marble for inexpensive MDF. I suspect you'll notice a difference.
This won't solve all of your sources of problems but will validate in a minor way what we've been saying.
Happy listening
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That sounds like an amazing platform!
I tried a 2" maple butcher block on the innertube for under my rega, but it deadened the sound too much. The 1" teak seems to work better.
I like the idea of recessed mounts..
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@bdp24,
This may be an optimum platform to try your future plan?
I can provide some pics if you want?
Happy listening
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1'8" = meant to write 1/8".
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You both may find this of interest..
I've fabricated a 3" maple platform that I've recessed 3 Symposium jr. (cups) into (flush) w/ the top of the platform.....on the bottom, I've a 1'8" recess for my Super Stiff Springs.
An effective,versatile platform that can be used in various applications.
I'm currently using it in my similarly modded rack that my amp/conditioner rests on.
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@bdp24, @toddverrone,
FIM made a ball n" cup device as well that was priced lower than the Symposium jr. Maybe still in production???
I almost offered one of my Symposium jr. sets up for sale, thought about it and decided to keep.
They were offered w/ two levels of ball bearings, one of harder strength. (Tungsten)??
I took it one level further and acquired ceramic balls. My project at this time was my VPI HW-19 mk IV that i"d taken way out of stock.
The ceramic ball bearings were a step up in this particular setting, adding major transparency... the highly resonant plinth/base of the VPI was HARD to overcome!
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perazzi28Some woofer pumping will be present as a good preamp will have frequency response near DC. This is mistaken. If the cartridge is properly matched to the arm, and if the rest of the phone system is properly set up, there should be no woofer pumping at all. Absolutely none. |
Probably feedback, just do some good isolating on the turntable.
Get rid of the low pass filter. Do not use it as it changes polarity and you loose micro-details, micro-dynamics, and imaging.
Some woofer pumping will be present as a good preamp will have frequency response near DC. |
ct0517,
I think we are on the same page. This has been my personal experience.
I hope we hear from the OP? It is now up to him.
Happy listening.
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I have been to older audio friends homes where their children have left. (yeah right - will believe it when it happens to me) ......anyway.
So the couple, find themselves with an empty bedroom/s upstairs; Usually (She) doesn’t want the stereo on the main floor. So usually (He) is forced to use one of the bedrooms upstairs. All wood suspended floors have the capability to produce what I call the 6 O’Clock train effect as bass and volume increases. And the higher you go 1-2-3 suspended floors, the worse the effect can get.
All it takes is one of the full range speakers and or sub to be placed above one of the same horizontal beams, as the one the turntable stand sits on. They become joined at the hip - so to speak. As the volume increases, its like that 6 O clock train going by. A suspended floor is never an ideal spot for a resolving turntable. If the problem is bad enough and keeping you from enjoying your system at those levels that get the .....endorphins flowing..... then...
locate the nearest main side wall that supports the house. Not that flimsy wood studded wall between rooms. Attach a shelf/ves to one of the main support walls. Another option - a little more extreme.... is to hang the shelf from the ceiling. 8^0
**************
then there is the other fellow, same suspended floors, that puts all the gear in one room except the speakers. The speakers go in the room next door.
But guess what - they are still sharing the same horizontal wood beam - so - still joined at the hip ...... guess what happens....
thats right ..choooo. choooo !! some Sat morning funny
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If you haven't already watched the Townshend Audio YouTube video showing how a speaker on a concrete floor reacts to vibrations, you should. (bdp24 has talked about this in other threads).
Then think about if a speaker on a concrete floor has this much vulnerability to vibrations, surely your tt on a second story will be magnified multiple times over.
Food for thought.
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miner42,
Did you ever try ct0517's dance tip? If you are embarrassed to dance, follow his directions without the dance. If you're getting the low frequency noise this way, something in your tt isolation chain is not set-up right or is not able to isolate effectively for your particular situation.
What type of audio console are you using?
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My main listening room is on the second floor, carpeted on a suspended subfloor Is the 1st floor, the main house floor also suspended ? Do both floors use horizontal wood beams? |
My main listening room is on the second floor, carpeted on a suspended subfloor. I do not have the luxury of moving the sound system away from the speakers due purely to room size (15' x 15' x 8') and layout (open on two sides - second floor game/media room). I feel my table is shielded from mechanical vibrations. The VPI Aries 3D has the mini-HRX feet, this sits upon a 2.5" layered birch platform with a cork top which is on 4 isoblocks that sit on my marble-topped audio console. |
Just to mention the roller bearing assemblies actually provide very good isolation in not only the horizontal plane (all horizontal directions) but also the three rotational directions - twist, roll and rock, as a consequence of the shallow cup and bearing motion when forced, which are also important since the seismic vibration produced by Earth crust motion, traffic, etc. arrives at the house or building in the form of waves, like waves on the ocean passing under a boat. My first product, the Nimbus Sub Hertz Platform, isolated in all six directions and had a resonant frequency as low as 0.5 Hz!
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Todd, I learned of roller bearings from audiophile recording engineer Barry Diament, a leading proponent of them (using them under every piece of his gear, even his Maggie MG 3.7’s!). He had his own "cups" machined locally years ago, and on his website blog details their design. Contributors on his site have offered their homemade versions of the isolators, usually of very low cost with a corresponding reduction in effectiveness (due to the softness of the bearing cups, often of plastic, wood, or cheap pot metal). There have been a few professional/commercial companies making roller bearings over the years, most famously Symposium Acoustics with their Roller Block, it’s cups machined from aluminum. The Jr. model is the best deal, a trio of 1-7/8" double-cups with a half inch ball bearing between the upper and lower cup, priced at $180/set. The major difference between Diaments design and the Symposium Jr. is in the Jr’s use of top and bottom cups, in contrast to Diaments preference for a single cup, with the ball bearing itself in direct contact with the bottom of the component. There is a small company in Canada making two versions of a roller bearing, Ingress Audio Engineering. Their Model 2 is identical to the Symposium Jr, just without the Jr’s black anodized finish, priced at $120 for a set of three double-cups with ball bearings. They also offer their Model 3, made to Diaments specs, a single 1-7/8" Alcoa 7075 aluminum cup with a very large 2" diameter "bowl" machined into it. The gentler slope of the bowl resulting from it’s larger size results in the bearing having a lower resonant frequency, therefore possessing greater isolation properties. The cups are also polished to a smoother finish than are the Model 2. The Model 3 sells for $175 for a set of three cups and ball bearings. The Ingress email is ingressaudio@gmail.com, phone number (519)981-2031. |
@bdp24 ha, I had no idea. I have a teak cutting board on an inner tube..
Where did you get your roller bearings? I'd love to DIY, but I haven't found good cups. |
Todd, the Townshend Seismic Platform (the "original" Seismic product, which I have and use, not the current "spring-in-a-bellows" Seismic Pod design) actually IS a slightly inflated inner tube inside a metal frame. The top and bottom damped metal platforms are separated by the inner tube, and it provides, as you say, a lot of vertical isolation. I then have roller bearings on top the platform for the lateral isolation they provide. The combination works real well. |
lewm
"Start with implementing room treatments rather than
applying this or that band-aid." Isn't there an internal contradiction in that sentence? Some would classify room treatments as a bandaid.
I guess it all comes down to the proverbial "chicken and the egg" If a room has particular issues ie modes that propagate and are not dealt with any amelioration down the chain is in my mind the "band-aid". In a studio or other professional venue the first thing that's considered is the room, since that will always be the limiting factor for whatever follows. Is the room in the OP's case the problem? The way to confirm is to run a sweep and determine where and why the anomalies are present. Personally the whole room treatment subject is one of the most overlooked and discounted topics considering its effect on whatever gear, tweaks or changes follow. Thats my take on it. |
My tonearm is only 32" away from my speaker but slightly behind the baffle. There is no issue with feedback at all. Airborne seems unlikely from my experience. |
I don't know why I assumed he had an integrated..........just run longer interconnects and keep your amp where it is.
Having your turntable so close to the speaker is just not smart. Also, do not place your table in a corner after you move your system.
This is the best solution to your problem. |
lewm - "not likely" means to me; other reasons are more likely and need to be explored. Until we have more info on his floor structure - its all guessing
********************************* Audiophile Dance. keep your turntable motor off. mute system at low volume. put on a record and lower the stylus on to the still record’s groove. unmute and start raising the volume level until it is at the high level for your listening habits. Start to Dance. any dance. jump up and down. Arm waving is optional. Do you hear anything through the speakers ? Dance around the table to determine if there is bad loading point. If all is quiet ..... that spot is ok. oh...before finishing..... try yelling at your cartridge (Baritone and Soprano voices) loud to determine if anything comes out of the speakers. |
CT0517, I have no dog in this fight, which is to say I am only guessing that the problem IS airborne. I certainly could be wrong, since my opinion is based only on the paragraph submitted by the OP. But can you say why you think the problem IS NOT airborne, with such conviction?
Rotarius, There is no harm in trying the cover, I agree. But in general, I would never run any turntable with its dust cover in place. This is based on trying it both ways, over many decades and with several turntables. Could it help in this particular instance? Maybe. Anyway, trying the cover would tell us much about what is going on; if the cover makes a difference (for better or worse), the problem probably IS airborne. |
I feel the problem is airborne.
not likely have you performed the audiophile dance yet to vet placement ? in order to give recommendations we need to know what your floor is and how it is supported. Wood floor with wood suspended beams, concrete pad, etc.... can you give some detail. stringreen
...... and I can do back flips, and never get feedback from the turntable. how 'bout posting a youtube showing this ? |
You may find that seismic isolation can benefit airborne resonance issues too. Though only because it would allow the rest of the table to vibrate and dissipate the energy..
A cheap way to experiment is to use a small, partially inflated inner tube under the platform your TT is on. Simple and effective against some horizontal and many vertical vibrations. Though, if you've already ordered the springs, you may as well see how that goes. |
I will be trying positioning the speakers and moving the TT a bit. The more I think about this the more I feel the problem is airborne. I may go as far as plugging the rear ports on the Audito Ms first to see if that helps. Thank you to all who have contributed. |
I'm planning on trying those springs myself slaw, in combination with roller bearings. |
I use machina dynamica super stiff springs between my tt platform and my wall mount. This is an inexpensive option that works very well.
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Get in touch with Edensound Audio and try out their BearPaws....large brass cones. I have a Superscoutmaster with a 3D arm and these made a HUGE difference...no down side.....the sound is better by far, and I can do back flips, and never get feedback from the turntable.
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Some strange replies posted here. There is no harm in using a cover during play to see what the results will be, so why not experiment? As for standing waves, resonance etc., it is all very dependent on that particular system of components and materials, impossible to predict by anyone and I am sure most people giving advice here have never used a vibration analyzer, they just go by their perception. Try everything you can, experiment away:) |
Totem, You wrote, "Start with implementing room treatments rather than
applying this or that band-aid." Isn't there an internal contradiction in that sentence? Some would classify room treatments as a bandaid. Not that there's anything wrong with that. The simplest first steps would be to make small changes in the positions of the speakers or the turntable, respectively, and determine what that does. Such experiments cost nothing. The OP has such plans afoot, I should hope. |
Having feed back issues and running the table with a cover is
never a step in the right direction. I can't believe I needed to
say that.
Step back and look at where the problem begins the acoustic
characteristics of your room and what you are adding to it.
Start with implementing room treatments rather than
applying this or that band-aid. The gains will far outweigh
other options.
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"Run longer speaker cables and move your source away from your speakers." No, I beg to differ. Run longer interconnects(balanced if possible) and keep your power amp only between the speakers. Keep speaker cables short.
Don't go down this road until trying all the simpler solutions suggested first. Cheers,
Spencer
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No cover. The cover itself will resonate, if the issue is airborne, and could make matters much worse. As a general rule of thumb, I would never ever use a cover during play. The stylus/LP interaction itself elicits vibrations that are best dissipated, not trapped under a cover.
Having said that, try it. I am interested to know whether my negative feelings about covers are operative in this instance. I have five turntables and none of them has a cover except the Kenwood L07D, which has a clever lucite, LP-shaped cover that sits down over the spindle directly on the mat and not over the whole top surface. |
You might be getting airborne feedback as well as mechanical. I, for one, would never place my table behind and so close to a speaker. It is a recipe for disaster.
Run longer speaker cables and move your source away from your speakers. |
Try it both ways and see what happens! |
If you have sound waves affecting playback, the cover should help (I doubt that though). It should not be a hindrance either way. |
Thank you to everyone who has contributed their thoughts. I will start by removing the cones and allowing the platform to sit directly on the isoblocks. I will also move the right speaker a bit at a time to see if I can eliminate those airborne vibrations. I think I know the answer but will ask anyway - would keeping my acrylic cover on during sessions help or hinder my issue? |
