We can get a better picture of which speaker is truly better if those contributing their favorites have heard a good number of the top speakers. Include in your response the speakers that didn't take the gold.
I feel like I hi-jacked this post. I appologize for that.
To me the best speaker is one that works with the room. Not to much bass, much better that the room can handle it. Most rooms vibrate just like autos when the subs in the trunk start rattling.
Most of all I like speakers that get out of the way. I want to see into the source. I mean speakers should just let the "good stuff come through".
If you are lucky enough to own really good electronics you will realize you don't need 50K speakers. What would they do? Fill an auditorium?
Just simple speakers, two way, two and 1/2 way. I want a minimal crossover not one that robs me of the music. I have seen crossovers that have more components then my preamplifier. Sick.
Well the amplifiers are warming up. My Pinot Noir has had enough time to breath, ( 6 minutes at the most ) so have to be going. My X wife is out of town so the night is mine.
Disclaimer: I am a dealer for Sonist Speakers and Wilson Benesch Speakers and deHavilland Electric Amplifier Company and last but not least Kubala-Sosna cables and interconnects.
Well, it may just be that we have to conclude that Spendor and Harbeths are well worth auditioning and then draw your own conclusions, but I get the sense that it is true that the Harbeths do sound good with many amps, and that does speak to the logic of the resolution argument made by Pani, one ought to hear real differences with highly resolving speakers (but that may not be that important to the enjoyment you get from your speakers). I know there are alot of "militant" Harbeth owners out there, and that must be for some good reason.
Different strokes I guess. Ive had Harbeth SHL5s for the past five years and think theyre wonderfully musical. Plenty of musical detail and no dryness or thickening whatsoever. I have tried Spendor SP2/3 and SP1/2 plus various JM Reynauds in my system and although they were all very good performers musically I still preferred the Harbeths. I actually found that the Harbeths were the most revealing of the bunch and that extra resolution seemed to draw me into the performance to a greater degree than the others.
That rings true. Yet there does seem to a large contigent of Harbeth lovers and perhaps it is for that very reason - people enjoy them with their "flaws" and perhaps because of them; making them ideal speakers for some, not for others. I certainly liked them (M40s) when I heard them at RMAF with MAC gear.
I would also like to add, Harbeths are not very revealing, they are just a bit bright which makes them sound illuminated in comparison to the likes of Spendor and Dyns. The reason I say this is because the company themselves suggest that their speaker can sound good on even an entry level amp, basically they are amp independent. I myself heard them with two different amps one costing about $1000 (Rega Brio) and the other costing about $6000 (Senders Pre-Power), frankly there was very little different difference in sound, except that the bass was a little tighter and faster with the Senders. Common sense tells me that the speaker did not reveal enough for me to judge anything about the two amps.
I have heard metal domes in many speakers like the Epos M12.2, Thiel, Monitor Audio...even though I prefer a silk dome any day, these speakers with metal domes do not sound analytical to me, they do sound bright and a tad hifi-sh though. I somehow feel it is the mid-bass driver of the Harbeth which has a dry but thick midrange...what a rare combination !!!
Thanks for posting that link. I didn't think the show was going to be as hugely successful as it was. I had a lot of fun there. My top 3 rooms:
1. DeHavilland: Kara took advantage of a diagonal set-up and analog tape playback to create an exceptional listening experience.
2. Salk Sound: Jim's speakers are incredible values. Great guy too.
3. Tonian Labs: A $6000 system, and that accounts for $5500 speakers, never sounded so good to my ears. It's enough to create a paradigm shift in how we as audiophiles approach evaluating equipment and equating cost with quality sound.
I'd also like to mention the Simplifi Audio room as the most fun experience I ever had at a show.
That seems to make sense, I would think that metal dome tweeters carry a signature sound different that soft-dome, I just haven't picked up on it (at my age that might make sense:() Similar overservations made by listeners of Theil speakers (which many love)....
I have heard the Spendors and Dynaudios but not the Harbeths...yet I wonder if your description of analysis and dryness comes from their use of metal dome tweeters (in most models).
Metal domes (in any speaker or application) sound analytical and dry to my ears. Yet the Spendor and Dynaudio models only use soft domes and I wonder if their more forgiving sound is a buy-product of that decision.
Yes, Spendors were far better, they did sound musical, what it is touted for. May be this gives a clue where I am coming from. Since I was upgrading from a Dynaudio which was a fair bit more neutral than the Spendors, I could not convince myself to buy the Spendors. But yes, the Spendor is a more musical speaker than Dyns in general. Finally I hit the sweetest spot with the best of the neutrality and highest grade of musicality with the ATC !! They are God level speakers, where others end, they begin. Set them up correctly and you would not be able to upgrade, which is such a rare thing in Audio. Unfortunately they draw a lot out of you in terms of matching electronics, cables, positioning, room treatment (need not be exhaustive but some care needs to be taken for bare walls especially if concrete). All these things take time if you are doing it on your own and you learn a lot. Most importantly one can blindly trust the speakers not being at fault if there is something wrong in the overall sound, they are brutally honest in a good way. One can listen to the poorest of recordings on these speakers and enjoy every bit of it (if there is anything to enjoy in the music) without getting fatigued....but all that after the painful setting up process is close to done.
As a long time Spendor user (3/1, 7/1, 1/2e) I took the opportunity to give the Harbeth's a listen before I moved on from Spendor. Yes they are warmer, especially in the bottom end, but I think I understand what Pani is alluding to. There is definitely some dryness in the mid range IMO, which is opposite to the sound and what I love about the Spendor speakers I've owned. Funny thing, at any of the audio shows I've gone to I can "blindly" pick up the sound of a Harbeth speaker very easily.
I don't think that explains the discrepancy as most Harbeth users do seem to be using SS and "musical" does seem to be the most common phrase used to describer them
Thats exactly why it was on the top of my shortlist when I was upgrading from my Dyn Contour 1.3SE speakers a year back. I was drooling all over the "Harbeth" brand and the aura around it. At that time I had created threads on AA asking about Harbeth vs other speakers while some people raved about it, some "experienced" guys did tell me to be careful and not buy a Harbeth blind as they are not as musical as Spendors and I may not like them as much as I am thinking. Thankfully I auditioned them, rejected them in 15 mins.
Can't argue with what you heard, but I never heard Harbeth sound like you describe them, "dry" and "no music" doesn't sound like the Harbeth sound to me. Now, I have always heard them with tubes, but I don't think that explains the discrepancy as most Harbeth users do seem to be using SS and "musical" does seem to be the most common phrase used to describer them - though surely not toe everyone's taste in what they are looking for in a speaker.
Analytical is not always revealing, it is a sound which has such kind of distortions that it does not sound like music but just sound. Some may also call it "dry", which I did find in the Harbeths but along with the dryness it had a presentation which gave a feeling of "no music just sound". I have heard the SHL5 driven by Rega Brio and Senders Pre-power.
What do you mean by "analytical character"? Besides the Harbeths coloring the signal, how can they analyze it? Do you mean overly "revealing" or something else?
Regarding the subject of disclosure, I, too, agree with Audiofeil. I don't know who Sounds Real Audio is, but if he comments on a product he represents/sells, he should mention that. Quite simple and easy, with no negative consequences that I can think of.
My take, and I have to research this as I am now technically an audio commercial user, is that as long as someone has registered in this fashion the requirements of A'gon are satisfied. My personal feeling matches that of Audiofeil's.
music lover speakers = Harbeth, Spendors audiophile speakers = wilson audio, magico, Dynaudio
Spendor, Yes but Harbeth ? Not at all. Harbeths are both extremely colored and analytical, thats a rare combination. It is colored on the thick/fat side to hide its analytical character which anyway comes through. Lot of people fall for the thick sound of Harbeth thinking thats "musical".
ATC !!! You really need some experience to get it perform. If you do not have the experience, be rest assured that you will learn a lot, and anyway get the "experienced" tag
Jim, The problem is simply that you should disclose. It will not make you look bad. Proud of and loyal to the lines you represent? Maybe. Sneaky and untrustworthy? No.
Saying that "they sounded pretty good at RMAF last year" when it was actually your room and you don't disclose that at the same time is quite disappointing. Does it show you are proud and loyal? Only if one already knows you and what you sell, then perhaps you think you do not need to disclose, but those people are the people you don't need to speak to anyway. All the others who don't know you from Adam are the ones you are speaking to, and then it is sneaky, and many people would say unethical.
Has anyone yet figured out why Audiogon does not label dealers/manufacturers/etc in the fora? I constantly hear from dealers/mfrs that they would rather not post in the fora because of the possibility that if they talk about something in the same category as they sell or make, they will be accused of touting their own product or running down someone else's. Perhaps if it were all open all the time dealers and manufacturers would be allowed to be more forthcoming with their expertise.
My favourite speakers are the Tidal Piano Cera but I believe the Tidal Sunray has set the limit so high that is difficult to be surpassed by any other speaker manufacturer.
"I trust that goners take every thread and not just mine with a grain of salt. "
That is not guaranteed. I am not a dealer but I believe its a better business practice to disclose than to place the burden on others to put two and two together and risk a negative impression IMHO.
When some one who reads one of my threads and calls me to order a piece of gear I mentioned I will immediately contact you both. Until that day comes however it is probably not worth getting you knickers in a knot.
I trust that goners take every thread and not just mine with a grain of salt. I would encourage that, though I would be satisfied if they would simply take mine with the grain that I include in each thread.
Blindjim, Hey, I have my canvas coats tailored at Saville Row...they fit tightly, (as prescribed by my...uh advisor), but look really great. Yet another hilarious and entertaining one Jim. lolololololololololololol....
Yeah. That seems to be an adequate assessment of my biggest shortcoming not that I am as you say, but that I THINK I am. FROM TIME TO TIME.
However, Im attending 3 humility meetings per weekk now so hopefully I can regain control somewhere down the road quite soon.
In fact they said recently, I wouldnt have to wear this canvas coat nearly as much if I continue to progress steadily.
;-))
Pubul57
A long time back people said to me right here Never take seriously any audition of equipment if heard at a show. They are the worst place to formulate your buying decision upon
They went on to give reasons such as less than optimal conditions front ends comprised of gear youre likely to never own due to its price poorly addressed power conditions cabling containing too much unobtainium less than optimal time to determine things to your satisfaction seldom will you get the hot seat to listen or the use of your own materials .
All of which sure made sense to me at the time and more or less still does.
It serves no purpose to me to even hear components which are in some arrangement of which, Ill never be able to own . Even when the setup has been remarkably well done, I can see where making an on the spot choice can be inappropriate. At times.
Naturally, for those with loads more green backs to dispense, well, Yaaayyy for them I suppose.
Assessing outstanding loudspeakers in some hierarchy or concensous is fun to do I guess, but its just so arbitrary a thing and amounts only to TIME WELL WASTED.
Associated factors are just too extensive. Esthetics for one is always an item of note for me. Size is another. Etc.
I ALSO TEND TO LIVE IN THE FRONT END FIRST AND SPEAKERS SECONDARILY, CAMP. Knowing full well the value of both, Ill agree with Chas too, with a great sounding front end and nice room, one doesnt have to hock the ranch to buy speakers in order to have an outstanding listening event.
Once you get into the $6K to $12K +/- ranges, youre in great speaker country. The front end and setup will either make or break any speaker, as will the room itself.
One example would be hearing from others here for instance, that either Avant Garde Trios or Focal Grand Utopias are the absolute best . Really? In a 14 x 19 room set on the short wall?
With class Ds?
With SET amps?
Doubtful. Given the room size on either hand and the amps on at least one account. Given their costs neither works for me . Or for many others.
Peripheral factors are just too extensive in attaining loud squeakers for there to be any real and true concensus of better or best. . Even from those with extensive squeaker ownerships.
Id bet heavily that as those with great experience in various squeaker ownerships changed across the years, so did their systems, rooms, amps, etc . and nearly as often. Yet in any case such quantifications are the value of the poster and their own ears notthose of the Ops.
Its so infrequent in upper end audio that costly squeakers are outdone by inexpensive ones so much so that one can almost qualify the concept outright, that more $$$ cast towards a speaker set will yeuild one better speakers.
The real and always underlying and unnerving proposition is Which ones are going to give me a shot at a better listening experience for my own particular configuration than the ones I own now given these parameters .. etc.???
Yes, a little credibilty gap when there is no disclosure, where statements can be taking with a grain of salt when there is a commercial interest. The Wilson's did sound good though....
I am not sure that I understand the intent of the OP? It seems to be something different than simply asking, "what is the best speaker you have heard?" It almost reads as if he is asking what is the best speaker according to those that have heard 100 or more, some type of qualification to the recommendations based on the level of "experience" of the individual making the recommendation, and some type of test to determine if the Tidal speaker would somewhow be mentioned. I am a little confused by it. And yes, one should certainly here the Vandersteens at their respective price points ~ not a dealer.
At RMAF you will hear "a good number of the top speakers" - if not all - and if not under optimal conditions; that is a given. But life is not perfect and it does provide what is really not available in any other reasonable, exposure to many speakers (and other equipment)that is not available dealer hopping (unless you make it a full time job)and optimal or not, alot better than depending on other people to tell you what speakers are best or right for you. There may be better hypotetical means to evaluating equipment, but in the real world a show like RMAF is hard to beat for what it offers, and it is fun to boot.
I've heard mbl twice, once optimally in a dealers showroom and once by the same dealer at a show.
They were far less impressive at the show than properly set up.
All speakers sound best when properly set up and matched to teh room, not just mbl. If you just focus on this you can reach nirvana a lot faster and most likely for significantly less cost than otherwise.
The best speaker's are the one's that best fit your situation. Like your room size, budget, taste, wife, cat, etc.
Everyone's situation is different of course.
I'am very happy with my Innersound Kaya's.
Other speakers I have heard at shows and dealers that I like are.
Vandersteen 7 Vienna Acoustics The Musik Scaena Avalons Merlins Soundlabs Quads Harbeths
I have heard MBL's a couple of times and have not been impressed. Maybe the third time is the charm.
Also have heard many different Wilson Audio speakers and havent liked them enough to pull the trigger. The Alexandria's driven by VTL sound quite good but are out of my price range and probably would not work in my room either.
The speaker's I have not heard but would like to are.
Magico Rockport Tidal Evolution
These are not represented in my area or RMAF the last two years.
Pedrillo, have you ever gone to RMAF? Not the same as listening in your home and room, but you might hear 200x as many speakers there than you ever will at home or a dealer, and as good a way as any to get a broad exposure to the "best" speakers (well maybe identify some that might be worthy of further inquiry). There is no beating hearing things with your own ears and RMAF is on of the best and easiest ways to do so.
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