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The new improved bose 901 series 6 version 2's are the best that I have ever heard and I've heard a lot speakers over the years... |
I haven't heard the harbeths sounding dry. No way. Something must be amiss in the chain. |
I mostly listen to small group acoustic jazz (vinyl source) and heavy metal (digital source). I have two setups. For jazz its all tubes, 300B SET to full range high efficiency coaxial paper drivers. Great for jazz, but no way for rock/metal.
For metal its tube-hybrid monoblocks to full-range three-way floorstanders with ceramic and diamond drivers. Fantastic for metal, but somewhat uninvolving for jazz.
These speakers have such different flaws and virtues. How to compare? |
Hey Pedrillo.Great to see ya posting "quality" threads.
Btw,since you last called me on the phone,how did the Milk Diet "pan" out? -:)
I'm still going ga ga on mastering music theory and looking to add a 5th guitar.This is very rewarding for me these days.
Gonna' just sit back and occassionally look at Audiogon for interestinf folks like you.
Good luck |
Sirspeedy,
Nice to see you back.
If ever in nyc drop by and give a listen to my new setup. |
This is getting interesting.Some very good points.In my own experience,I found the "bast speaker" was always a moving target.
Often I liked something,only to get tired at a later time.I've had great non audio show demoes of stuff like BIG Infinity 4 tower designs(I've owned two systems of these in the past),The Nola Exotica Grand set up with mega buck German origin amps,Big designs from JM Labs(the the Be series),to Pipe Dreams,to TAD speakers.
In the long haul,though I too like orchestral big bang stuff,the vast majority of the Big Boys simply gave me a head ache,after the initial shock of so much energy.Well set up or not.
Though I "did" have a fantastic demo of three different mfgrs(all present)putting their own sets of electronics on the JM Labs Nova Utopia Be's.This might have been my own personal "best in what I've been most impressed with to date"!
There was Zanden,VAC and VTL....all both analog and digital,and we'd go back and forth between each set of electronics on the speaker....in a huge room.Low,and high power(the Zanden was pretty low-ish tube power,but came in first,to me and a few other lucky listeners.
Fortunately the speaker was an easy load to drive...but...for less than half the asking price,the VAC stuff was 95% as good,Imo.
That's just me,and why I'd opt for a simple,somewhat full range design,in my old age -:)
I kinda' think with technology these days,the time of the BIG speaker is coming to an end.There are some amazing small-ish designs coming down the pipe.
I don't care to measure anything as long as I think it sounds good.
I'll probably change my mind again before I turn around -:)
Good luck with it all |
Not sure about this, but I think if a speaker could do symphonic music right, it will get heavy metal right, you really have to do an awful lot well in a speaker to get symphonic music right, including scale and dynamics. There are certainly speakers that are great for solo acoustic singer type music that can't quite get symphonic music right since so much more is demanded to reproduce a real symphonic presence. If you can do Mahler, I think you can do Metallica IMHO.
Just an observation, I think you can really screw up a great speaker when you try to make it produce real bass below 35hz or so, that insistence on the lowest bass really challenge a speaker, an amp, and a room. A long time ago I decide I was willing to give up that bottom octave to have a speaker that was "the best" for me. But then again, I don't listen to alot of symphonic or heavy metal:) |
I'll admit that first impressions are important- you know immediately when a speaker sounds good if its in a good setup. But you have to live with a speaker to really understand its virtues with different types of music. A 'lively' speaker can eventually become fatiguing, and a more neutral design might be preferable over the long haul. I also think that speaker (and amplifier) evaluation is highly dependent on music type- for example, some speaker designs that excel with symphonic music simply fail with heavy metal, and vice versa.
We're not talking about absolute truth here, since the definition of great audiophile sound varies. That's why these opinions always need to be qualified. And its always nice to know the opinion of those who are really well-informed. |
Pubul57....
That last sentence is "spot on",Imo. |
The closest you will get is to go to RMAF (for a few years) and decide that for yourself, there simply cannot be that many folks who have had the time, or money, or inclination to have heard it all (and also be good listeners with critical faculties), in their home, with their electronics, etc. And then good luck trying to find any "authoritative" conclusion - it's just not like that. It gets all the more complicated when you take into account that the speaker is a very different creature depending on the amplifier and source driving it, let alone the room. And then, at the end of the day, if all that were possible, you would only know what that one person thought was best for them. |
What do you mean by 'real time'? Hours- days- weeks, years? |
Hi Rleff
I'm guessing that there aren't too many people really qualified to answer this question, other than maybe a few reviewers and dealers. But it might be hard to get an unbiased opinion from such a person, if they're still in the audio business.
I looked at the thread again, but I didn't see any answers that sound 'authoritative'. I'd like to hear from someone who's spent real time with some of the best of each design (planar, electrostatic, horn, high efficiency, multidriver, others) and then formed his/her opinion.
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Ok,I've had a past history of 40 years in the hobby.Got out to pursue acoustic guitar "again".My first love,actually.....anyway....
I've been in the NY audio scene and have heard a TON of systems.Many reviewers' set-ups,which in all honesty were not really any better than many hobbyist set-ups.Experienced "hobbyists",that is!There are alot of "you guys" -:)
In all candor,from owning many speakers,and hearing a boat load more(and this is "only" my two cents...maybe "three")the finest speakers,to me,where the "simplest designs,that required the least amount of power"!
It's elementary really,as there is just less complexity of parts to get in the way.Whether it be the actual speaker in question(though many big designs sound fine,in a big room,but who really has "that")or the "electronics" needed to drive them(alot of circuitry is not really the best thing,and BOY do I know "that"!!).
My last speaker was one of the finest designs made,even in todays market,"imo"....The "original" Avalon Ascent MK-II.Built like a tanker ship,but very easy to drive,and an outboard crossover that was/is world class.Simple/spectacular design,but it took a long time to "voice" to my room.
In retrospect,it is just good design sense to have the crossover out of harms way.Meaning out of the path of potential vibrations.
In todays' market(which from what I see,is getting "killed" by the economy)there are few realistically affordable designs which do it all,if you want a big/dynamic and accurate design......better off with a simple,accurate speaker.One that requires "less complexity of drive",and you will be rewarded with the ability to get off the merry-go-round.....Not easy!I know!!
As to the Magico Mini,it might be very pricey,but I've set them up,and in all honesty they are "superb" designs(I have NO agenda,as I'm lovin' my 4 guitars,and becoming a musician).This speaker is a classic case of "who cares about how low it goes",if you have a proper room,and componentry....Just listen to your damn music,and forget about industry status.Not easy...but really it "is"!
The only problem with the MINI,imo,is it needs alot of power,so you are right back where you started,as you are now most likely adding complexity in circuitry....Still,from my experience "it works"!An anomoly,and an expensive one at that,but "that's the hobby"...right?
From a personal(only) perspective,the finest simple speaker designs,requiring the least amount of power,nice simple tube amps,preferrably something like the Dehavilland 50A(an amp to die for) would be the way I'd go,but that is just my own pie in the sky.I'm more into getting this "damn" music theory down,so I can know the fretboard.
It never ends -:)
PS....just a few real beauties in good/proven designs...
Verity Parsifal,Kharma 3.2Fe....."Used" pricing will be tremendous in the value dept.
In stand mounts,there is a load of fabulous designs that can be driven easily.Too many to go into,but I know Richard Foster,and he is in heaven with his tube driven Focal Minis.
Good luck
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Thanks Peterayer enjoy your wonderful speakers i love mine. |
Looks like it's getting personal.
Ebm did share with me his views about various Magico speakers while I was researching them. His opinion was brief though accurate and helpful IMO. |
Psag do you know of such a person;there have been several members who have answered this thread with many years of experience in the hobby, 2 that I know of dealers, and 1 designer/manufacturer of pre and power amps who probally has the most experience with speakers used personally or in shows with his gear driving them.
What points of view are you looking to hear about? |
Thanks again Mr Wonderful!! |
You too Ebm.
Kiss a frog for me. |
Audiofeil Thanks for being so nice.Have a wonderful day!! |
>>08-12-10: Ebm
If you have nothing to say say nothing!!<<
And nobody does it better than you. |
If you have nothing to say say nothing!! |
Who sells the best gold?
Who has set the gold standard?
Where can I buy the golden fleece?
Who is just golden?
When and where can I find the golden years ?
Is gold really old ?
Where can I find the golden mile ?
Gotta just love all this hot air. If we all filed up the room we really would have wasted a whole lot of precious oxygen ! |
A few observations:
-People like the speakers they currently own.
-In general, you usually get what you pay for.
-There's a difference between favorite and best
-Comparing different designs without qualification is silly.
Would be nice to hear from someone with the perspective of years, who's had objective long-term experience with the true best (price no object). |
Peterayer, great system and component selection, I bet you are getting the most out of your Magicos. |
Peterayer Wonderful MAGICO MINI 2 setup im sure they sound wonderful as well . |
My old Eggleston Rosa's went down to about 35 hz in my room and my Mini II's go down at least to that and maybe to low 30's, but the quality of that mid and upper bass is something to behold. They are expensive, but above about 35 hz, they are extremely musical. |
"MAGICO MINI 2 goes down to 32hz in my room"
Wouldn't doubt it. It seems to do about as much is possible for its size. My Dynaudio Contours (smaller/ported) may go down to 40hz or so.
I did not find bass to be lacking with the minis for teh most part. Not the nth degree of muscle in the low end for certain types of music, but very impressive still for its size. |
MAGICO MINI 2 goes down to 32hz in my room |
PSB Synchrony had perhaps as high a toe tapping factor as anything I have heard run of Rogue Tube amp and a nicely imaged full range sound that was right on.
Magico minis were distinguished by a most natural tonal purity and lovely soundstage and imaging when I heard them.
mbl created the largest, deepest soundstage I have ever heard in a large suitable room with lots of room behind the speakers and also demonstrated extremely accurate and lifelike imaging in that soundstage with a fine full range tonal balance overall.
OHMs are somewhere between PSB and mbl in regards to the overall sound but not far behind Magico in terms of overall tonal purity given the huge difference in cost between my system and the Magico system I heard.
Quad ESLs and OHMs are similar in many aspects however the OHMs have the big edge in overall dynamics and I suspect much less finicky.
GOTO horns had the nth degree of dynamics and a nice tonal purity top to bottom, at least with the vintage jazz and classical vinyl source material demoed. Soundstage was large and natural sounding in a medium sized 18th century room with high ceilings. The digital source on this rig was more back with the pack overall. |
MAGICO MINI 2 SOUND Wonderful in my 13w by 20d Room so knock away boys i love them even more!!Oh yes that was 4 reviewers in ABSOLUTE SOUND!!! I agree. |
Weseixas, I expect to see the T-3.3 at RMAF.
Mapman, I may not have made myself clear- I did not find the mbls to be bright. IOW although I have heard mbl systems sound bright a number of times, under controlled circumstances I have found that it sounds bright, its not the speakers. |
YEs, the mini does not plumb the depths like many speakers in that price category. OTher than that though, they were hard to fault when I heard them (twice).
For smaller rooms or tight quarters, they are one of the best for sure, however, I suspect there are others that can compete for less. |
Hello,
The Magico mini 2 is a lot of money for a limited bandwidth speaker IMO. Unless you have a very small listening room I would pass, there are others at that price point ..
regards,
|
They are good!
Perhaps not the nth degree in detail compared to the others, but otherwise extremely good and hard to fault.
Driven optimally and set up well as I heard them, they are in the same league perhaps but more like the Reds or Twins perhaps, not the Red Sox or Yankees. The Red or Twins are capable of beating the Yankees on any given day! |
Mapman, are the PSBs that good? They seem to be well priced if they can compete with the others on you list - all good speakers no doubt. |
The best I have heard recently that I found hard to fault are OHM, mbl, Magico mini, and custom GOTO horns. I've heard some PSB Synchrony and Quad ESL speakers that were up there as well. |
Has anyone read the latest review in TAS of the TAD CR-1? It must be incredible. It was the biggest rave I think I have ever read in a review of a speaker. Where can one audition it? |
The TAS listing was 12 most "significant" speakers, not necessarily the best, in fact they are clearly not the best 12 speakers of all time, which does not mean the Magico Mini is not a great speaker, it might be, bust just to get the record straight. |
MAGICO MINI 2 Listed by 3 reviewers as well as top 12 speaker of all time in Absolute Sound. |
EDIT:
I meant to say to say JBL Hartsfield not Hartley....
Groan .. |
Interesting stuff Atmasphere,
His classic line look like Hartleys? love the look !!!!!
His T- line i have never seen before. What speakers are you are you going to demo with at RMAF?
Regards, |
"I ignore speakers that cannot be driven easily with tubes or are built around the Voltage Paradigm, as such speakers rarely sound like real music. The exception so far to that has been the mbl and I do believe there are others. "
Atma, if you took to the mbls but found them a bit bright, you should give a listen to some newer OHMs also.
If not for OHM, I suspect I would be much more of a tube kinda guy than I am. I'd love to play mine for you someday if you are ever in the area.
I've heard the same dealer's mbl 111s in a good dealer showroom and at a show on all mbl electronics. The dealer setup was stellar. The show setup was more back with the pack.
If you are ever |
The Model T-1.3, although he has a new T-3.3 that I have not heard yet, but will be at RMAF. |
Hello atmasphere,
Which Classic Audio Loudspeakers model are you recommending ?
regards, |
Jim, the reason you might have to wait a while before calling Tvad or Paul is that when you mention your gear that way in your threads it degrades your credibility.
IMO its OK to steer the conversation into an area where you can offer correct and impartial advice which might relate to what you are selling, but leave it up to others to comment on the sound in such situations!
regular programming:
here are 6 speakers:
I've had very good luck with the Wilsons over the years
Sound Lab is the state of the art in ESLs, and for that matter, planars, although I really like the big Audio Analysis.
While not full range, the High Emotion Audio Bella Twin does everything else so well I am including it.
A surprise for me is the mbl101, which at shows always has been way too bright and stilted. Turns out its not the speaker; at shows its always been an all-mbl setup, and their preamp is their weak spot by a wide margin.
Of course I always show with Classic Audio Loudspeakers and own a set of the field-coil models. Before he introduced the field coils and the new first order crossovers, I felt that the CAL was a good compromise of what you want in a good speaker, but now I don't regard it as a compromise on anything that you want a speaker to be. Except small.
preferences:
I ignore speakers that cannot be driven easily with tubes or are built around the Voltage Paradigm, as such speakers rarely sound like real music. The exception so far to that has been the mbl and I do believe there are others. Since Voltage Paradigm rules ignore human hearing rules for the most part, its a real testament when such technology is actually musically convincing. |
Well there is agreement that the Merlin VSMs are the greatestest speakers ever made:) |
george w. bush...didn't take the gold. |
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This type of discussion often leads nowhere. I have heard 500 dollar Paradigms that sounded better than 3000 dollar Vandersteens. System synergy is EVERYTHING and that includes the room where the listening is done.
I don't care how good the system is; a bad room will not allow a system to excel.
There are a LOT of good speakers out there and few "experts" can agree on them because of the vast variables involved. Trust YOUR OWN ears first. They are specific in their ability. My wife has worked at a hearing clinic and I can assure you that there are VAST differences in the way we hear, just as there are between systems. Find what you like and enjoy the MUSIC...the system is secondary.
Cheers,
Rob |
