We can get a better picture of which speaker is truly better if those contributing their favorites have heard a good number of the top speakers. Include in your response the speakers that didn't take the gold.
"I trust that goners take every thread and not just mine with a grain of salt. "
That is not guaranteed. I am not a dealer but I believe its a better business practice to disclose than to place the burden on others to put two and two together and risk a negative impression IMHO.
My favourite speakers are the Tidal Piano Cera but I believe the Tidal Sunray has set the limit so high that is difficult to be surpassed by any other speaker manufacturer.
Jim, The problem is simply that you should disclose. It will not make you look bad. Proud of and loyal to the lines you represent? Maybe. Sneaky and untrustworthy? No.
Saying that "they sounded pretty good at RMAF last year" when it was actually your room and you don't disclose that at the same time is quite disappointing. Does it show you are proud and loyal? Only if one already knows you and what you sell, then perhaps you think you do not need to disclose, but those people are the people you don't need to speak to anyway. All the others who don't know you from Adam are the ones you are speaking to, and then it is sneaky, and many people would say unethical.
Has anyone yet figured out why Audiogon does not label dealers/manufacturers/etc in the fora? I constantly hear from dealers/mfrs that they would rather not post in the fora because of the possibility that if they talk about something in the same category as they sell or make, they will be accused of touting their own product or running down someone else's. Perhaps if it were all open all the time dealers and manufacturers would be allowed to be more forthcoming with their expertise.
ATC !!! You really need some experience to get it perform. If you do not have the experience, be rest assured that you will learn a lot, and anyway get the "experienced" tag
music lover speakers = Harbeth, Spendors audiophile speakers = wilson audio, magico, Dynaudio
Spendor, Yes but Harbeth ? Not at all. Harbeths are both extremely colored and analytical, thats a rare combination. It is colored on the thick/fat side to hide its analytical character which anyway comes through. Lot of people fall for the thick sound of Harbeth thinking thats "musical".
My take, and I have to research this as I am now technically an audio commercial user, is that as long as someone has registered in this fashion the requirements of A'gon are satisfied. My personal feeling matches that of Audiofeil's.
What do you mean by "analytical character"? Besides the Harbeths coloring the signal, how can they analyze it? Do you mean overly "revealing" or something else?
Regarding the subject of disclosure, I, too, agree with Audiofeil. I don't know who Sounds Real Audio is, but if he comments on a product he represents/sells, he should mention that. Quite simple and easy, with no negative consequences that I can think of.
Analytical is not always revealing, it is a sound which has such kind of distortions that it does not sound like music but just sound. Some may also call it "dry", which I did find in the Harbeths but along with the dryness it had a presentation which gave a feeling of "no music just sound". I have heard the SHL5 driven by Rega Brio and Senders Pre-power.
Can't argue with what you heard, but I never heard Harbeth sound like you describe them, "dry" and "no music" doesn't sound like the Harbeth sound to me. Now, I have always heard them with tubes, but I don't think that explains the discrepancy as most Harbeth users do seem to be using SS and "musical" does seem to be the most common phrase used to describer them - though surely not toe everyone's taste in what they are looking for in a speaker.
I don't think that explains the discrepancy as most Harbeth users do seem to be using SS and "musical" does seem to be the most common phrase used to describer them
Thats exactly why it was on the top of my shortlist when I was upgrading from my Dyn Contour 1.3SE speakers a year back. I was drooling all over the "Harbeth" brand and the aura around it. At that time I had created threads on AA asking about Harbeth vs other speakers while some people raved about it, some "experienced" guys did tell me to be careful and not buy a Harbeth blind as they are not as musical as Spendors and I may not like them as much as I am thinking. Thankfully I auditioned them, rejected them in 15 mins.
As a long time Spendor user (3/1, 7/1, 1/2e) I took the opportunity to give the Harbeth's a listen before I moved on from Spendor. Yes they are warmer, especially in the bottom end, but I think I understand what Pani is alluding to. There is definitely some dryness in the mid range IMO, which is opposite to the sound and what I love about the Spendor speakers I've owned. Funny thing, at any of the audio shows I've gone to I can "blindly" pick up the sound of a Harbeth speaker very easily.
Yes, Spendors were far better, they did sound musical, what it is touted for. May be this gives a clue where I am coming from. Since I was upgrading from a Dynaudio which was a fair bit more neutral than the Spendors, I could not convince myself to buy the Spendors. But yes, the Spendor is a more musical speaker than Dyns in general. Finally I hit the sweetest spot with the best of the neutrality and highest grade of musicality with the ATC !! They are God level speakers, where others end, they begin. Set them up correctly and you would not be able to upgrade, which is such a rare thing in Audio. Unfortunately they draw a lot out of you in terms of matching electronics, cables, positioning, room treatment (need not be exhaustive but some care needs to be taken for bare walls especially if concrete). All these things take time if you are doing it on your own and you learn a lot. Most importantly one can blindly trust the speakers not being at fault if there is something wrong in the overall sound, they are brutally honest in a good way. One can listen to the poorest of recordings on these speakers and enjoy every bit of it (if there is anything to enjoy in the music) without getting fatigued....but all that after the painful setting up process is close to done.
I have heard the Spendors and Dynaudios but not the Harbeths...yet I wonder if your description of analysis and dryness comes from their use of metal dome tweeters (in most models).
Metal domes (in any speaker or application) sound analytical and dry to my ears. Yet the Spendor and Dynaudio models only use soft domes and I wonder if their more forgiving sound is a buy-product of that decision.
That seems to make sense, I would think that metal dome tweeters carry a signature sound different that soft-dome, I just haven't picked up on it (at my age that might make sense:() Similar overservations made by listeners of Theil speakers (which many love)....
Thanks for posting that link. I didn't think the show was going to be as hugely successful as it was. I had a lot of fun there. My top 3 rooms:
1. DeHavilland: Kara took advantage of a diagonal set-up and analog tape playback to create an exceptional listening experience.
2. Salk Sound: Jim's speakers are incredible values. Great guy too.
3. Tonian Labs: A $6000 system, and that accounts for $5500 speakers, never sounded so good to my ears. It's enough to create a paradigm shift in how we as audiophiles approach evaluating equipment and equating cost with quality sound.
I'd also like to mention the Simplifi Audio room as the most fun experience I ever had at a show.
I have heard metal domes in many speakers like the Epos M12.2, Thiel, Monitor Audio...even though I prefer a silk dome any day, these speakers with metal domes do not sound analytical to me, they do sound bright and a tad hifi-sh though. I somehow feel it is the mid-bass driver of the Harbeth which has a dry but thick midrange...what a rare combination !!!
I would also like to add, Harbeths are not very revealing, they are just a bit bright which makes them sound illuminated in comparison to the likes of Spendor and Dyns. The reason I say this is because the company themselves suggest that their speaker can sound good on even an entry level amp, basically they are amp independent. I myself heard them with two different amps one costing about $1000 (Rega Brio) and the other costing about $6000 (Senders Pre-Power), frankly there was very little different difference in sound, except that the bass was a little tighter and faster with the Senders. Common sense tells me that the speaker did not reveal enough for me to judge anything about the two amps.
That rings true. Yet there does seem to a large contigent of Harbeth lovers and perhaps it is for that very reason - people enjoy them with their "flaws" and perhaps because of them; making them ideal speakers for some, not for others. I certainly liked them (M40s) when I heard them at RMAF with MAC gear.
Different strokes I guess. IÂ’ve had Harbeth SHL5Â’s for the past five years and think theyÂ’re wonderfully musical. Plenty of musical detail and no dryness or thickening whatsoever. I have tried Spendor SP2/3 and SP1/2 plus various JM ReynaudÂ’s in my system and although they were all very good performers musically I still preferred the HarbethÂ’s. I actually found that the HarbethÂ’s were the most revealing of the bunch and that extra resolution seemed to draw me into the performance to a greater degree than the others.
Well, it may just be that we have to conclude that Spendor and Harbeths are well worth auditioning and then draw your own conclusions, but I get the sense that it is true that the Harbeths do sound good with many amps, and that does speak to the logic of the resolution argument made by Pani, one ought to hear real differences with highly resolving speakers (but that may not be that important to the enjoyment you get from your speakers). I know there are alot of "militant" Harbeth owners out there, and that must be for some good reason.
I feel like I hi-jacked this post. I appologize for that.
To me the best speaker is one that works with the room. Not to much bass, much better that the room can handle it. Most rooms vibrate just like autos when the subs in the trunk start rattling.
Most of all I like speakers that get out of the way. I want to see into the source. I mean speakers should just let the "good stuff come through".
If you are lucky enough to own really good electronics you will realize you don't need 50K speakers. What would they do? Fill an auditorium?
Just simple speakers, two way, two and 1/2 way. I want a minimal crossover not one that robs me of the music. I have seen crossovers that have more components then my preamplifier. Sick.
Well the amplifiers are warming up. My Pinot Noir has had enough time to breath, ( 6 minutes at the most ) so have to be going. My X wife is out of town so the night is mine.
Disclaimer: I am a dealer for Sonist Speakers and Wilson Benesch Speakers and deHavilland Electric Amplifier Company and last but not least Kubala-Sosna cables and interconnects.
This type of discussion often leads nowhere. I have heard 500 dollar Paradigms that sounded better than 3000 dollar Vandersteens. System synergy is EVERYTHING and that includes the room where the listening is done.
I don't care how good the system is; a bad room will not allow a system to excel.
There are a LOT of good speakers out there and few "experts" can agree on them because of the vast variables involved. Trust YOUR OWN ears first. They are specific in their ability. My wife has worked at a hearing clinic and I can assure you that there are VAST differences in the way we hear, just as there are between systems. Find what you like and enjoy the MUSIC...the system is secondary.
Jim, the reason you might have to wait a while before calling Tvad or Paul is that when you mention your gear that way in your threads it degrades your credibility.
IMO its OK to steer the conversation into an area where you can offer correct and impartial advice which might relate to what you are selling, but leave it up to others to comment on the sound in such situations!
regular programming:
here are 6 speakers:
I've had very good luck with the Wilsons over the years
Sound Lab is the state of the art in ESLs, and for that matter, planars, although I really like the big Audio Analysis.
While not full range, the High Emotion Audio Bella Twin does everything else so well I am including it.
A surprise for me is the mbl101, which at shows always has been way too bright and stilted. Turns out its not the speaker; at shows its always been an all-mbl setup, and their preamp is their weak spot by a wide margin.
Of course I always show with Classic Audio Loudspeakers and own a set of the field-coil models. Before he introduced the field coils and the new first order crossovers, I felt that the CAL was a good compromise of what you want in a good speaker, but now I don't regard it as a compromise on anything that you want a speaker to be. Except small.
preferences: I ignore speakers that cannot be driven easily with tubes or are built around the Voltage Paradigm, as such speakers rarely sound like real music. The exception so far to that has been the mbl and I do believe there are others. Since Voltage Paradigm rules ignore human hearing rules for the most part, its a real testament when such technology is actually musically convincing.
"I ignore speakers that cannot be driven easily with tubes or are built around the Voltage Paradigm, as such speakers rarely sound like real music. The exception so far to that has been the mbl and I do believe there are others. "
Atma, if you took to the mbls but found them a bit bright, you should give a listen to some newer OHMs also.
If not for OHM, I suspect I would be much more of a tube kinda guy than I am. I'd love to play mine for you someday if you are ever in the area.
I've heard the same dealer's mbl 111s in a good dealer showroom and at a show on all mbl electronics. The dealer setup was stellar. The show setup was more back with the pack.
His classic line look like Hartleys? love the look !!!!! His T- line i have never seen before. What speakers are you are you going to demo with at RMAF?
The TAS listing was 12 most "significant" speakers, not necessarily the best, in fact they are clearly not the best 12 speakers of all time, which does not mean the Magico Mini is not a great speaker, it might be, bust just to get the record straight.
Has anyone read the latest review in TAS of the TAD CR-1? It must be incredible. It was the biggest rave I think I have ever read in a review of a speaker. Where can one audition it?
The best I have heard recently that I found hard to fault are OHM, mbl, Magico mini, and custom GOTO horns. I've heard some PSB Synchrony and Quad ESL speakers that were up there as well.
Perhaps not the nth degree in detail compared to the others, but otherwise extremely good and hard to fault.
Driven optimally and set up well as I heard them, they are in the same league perhaps but more like the Reds or Twins perhaps, not the Red Sox or Yankees. The Red or Twins are capable of beating the Yankees on any given day!
The Magico mini 2 is a lot of money for a limited bandwidth speaker IMO. Unless you have a very small listening room I would pass, there are others at that price point ..
YEs, the mini does not plumb the depths like many speakers in that price category. OTher than that though, they were hard to fault when I heard them (twice).
For smaller rooms or tight quarters, they are one of the best for sure, however, I suspect there are others that can compete for less.
Mapman, I may not have made myself clear- I did not find the mbls to be bright. IOW although I have heard mbl systems sound bright a number of times, under controlled circumstances I have found that it sounds bright, its not the speakers.
MAGICO MINI 2 SOUND Wonderful in my 13w by 20d Room so knock away boys i love them even more!!Oh yes that was 4 reviewers in ABSOLUTE SOUND!!! I agree.
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