Assuming the modifiers are doing the same full-out mods, why is the Denon 3910 better than the 2900 as a base unit for modifications? Is the transport mechanism that much better?
E M W T K
nquiring inds ant o now
Thanks
Kerry |
Sorry about the post regarding Alex. It won't happen again.
Kerry |
Beer? Seriously, Tom, you're welcome to join us. As soon as everyone lets me know when they can make it, date and time, along with what they'd like to demo, I'll post the info.
Brian |
TGUN5, I'm real proud of you! I will join you at the shootout in Chacago 'in spiritu'! |
If there's beer, I'm coming. Seriously, I will drive the 5 hours from Sandusky, OH and bring the modified DV-50. Figure out a final date and post.
Tom Roberts |
My advice is to have a session next weekend and allow any that can make it to come by, relax, and have a listen. If they are interested in hearing other players then they can come by another time when another particular player will be shown. I think you are going to end without good conclusions because those A/B/C/D, etc comparisons when switching players with many people changing seats ( and drinking beer) all the time is not conducive to a fruitfully effective audition. It's not much different than being in your local Circuit City listening room while the salesman is punching those switching boxes every minute or two. While some may be able to pick their sacred cow from an audition like this, most can not.
Anyway, looking forward to reading comments whenever the audition takes place. |
For some unexplained reason my phone number got deleted from my post. It is 847-382-8433. |
OK, then will all concerned please propose the date. The following Saturday, Feb. 5th? Let's get the date reserved as soon as possible, as I have some other commitments.
All planning to attend, please RSVP because space is limited and be sure to indicate afternoon or evening, as we probably need to have two sessions. If you're bringing a player, please let me know well in advance, including details on its features. Since there will be quite a few players involved in the comparison, a little planning can go a long way. Anyone wanting to bring their player over a day or three early to plug in and warm up is welcome to do so.
I can be reached by email through this site or by phone at , preferably evenings and weekends.
Thanks.
Brian |
Hey Brian,
The 29th is not a good day for 1Markr, Jactoy or myself. Since having Bon's modded Sony 9000ES and 1Markr's new Wright modded Sony 999ES are critical to the shootout I suggest we plan another weekend. The person bringing the Exemplar 2900 also won't be available. And I won't have access to the handful of stock players that I wanted to bring on the 29th.
I suggest we wait until everyone's schedule permits.
AVGURU |
It would appear from some of the posts in this thread that the strength of the Denon 3910 is its transport/DSP function. In fact, one of the modifications of this unit that has been discussed involves just using those components and replacing all else. This raises the question of how a 3910/great DAC combo would compare with the modified 3910?
Anyone tried this? |
There is a new review of a modified DV50 with the Superclock 3 modification by Reference Mods. This is a new thread worth following.
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?rdgtl&1106373263
Perhaps the owner can be persuaded to participate with his unit to the upcoming 'Grand CDP Listening Slaughter & Shootout Extravaganza". AVGURU, to you the honor of contacting the owner. |
--Some comments on my analog vs. CD playback
I thought I would gratuitously post some observations I've made on my Modwright Sony 999, now that it is broken in, compared against my analog rig. This is unscientific in every way and includes only one recording that I did a direct synchronized A/B test upon.
The comments I've made on the Modwright player earlier in the thread are still valid.
My analog setup is a Linn LP12 with all the known current mods. It additionally sports a Goldmund platter rather than the standard Linn platter. The arm is a Linn Ittok and the cartridge is a relatively recent Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood MK II. The preamp is an Audio Research SP16 with phono stage. It has about 400 hours on a new set of Electroharmonics "Elite" 12AX7 type tubes.
Interconnects are Audioquest Jaguar for the CD player and Cardas arm wires. Between amp and preamp I'm using Kimber Hero and the speakers, Nautilus 803s are connected to the Musical Fidelity A3CR amp via Nordost Solar Wind cables.
Regarding phono playback, I would identify the built-in phono section of the SP16 as the weakest link in the chain. I think it is generally pretty good, but compared with a true high-end phono stage it may lack some of the dynamics and openness of the best.
Throughout my critical listening to compare, I was constantly surprised at how close the two sources were. I mean, really close. The Linn, with a properly cleaned LP has a very black noise floor. The album I was able to A/B test was Linda Ronstadt's Lush Life on Elektra. I have an original standard LP pressing from circa the time of its release in 1984. My Redbook CD copy is relatively new, but it was apparently produced for CD in 1986. So, not only is it a Redbook CD, but it's apparently produced on first generation equipment for that medium. My comparisons were all with Redbook, not SACD.
Both front ends produced marvelous detail, dynamics and soundstage. There was a consistent difference across almost every type of music having to do with soundstage depth. With the LP12, the lead vocals were focused solidly between the speakers at about the plane of the speaker fronts. All vocals and instruments had plenty of air and bloom. The Ronstadt album was produced with the use of an Aphex Aural Exciter so that room acoustics could apparently be synthesized where acceptable ones did not otherwise exist during the recording. Actually, I know next to nothing about the Aphex unit, but I'm assuming this is the purpose. With the LP, insttruments remained tightly organized around the leads and extended back in space nicely. Microdynamics were good and did not lend themselves to any subjective critisism. Notes in the upper midrange had a slight tendency to sound a bit blunted on their leading edges as though not able to fully open up as they attacked. The upside of this is that the effect was one of mellow richness. Overall, the impression of listening through the LP12 was one of intamacy: As though I were hearing the music in a smaller venue such as a nightclub.
I was able to play both sources separately and synchronized within a second or two and could switch back and forth relatively quickly between the Linn and the Modwright. As I said, the two sources had many more similarities than differences. The most noteable difference was in the perspective. The Modwright gave me the sense of listening in a much larger theater with the lead singer out in front and spotlighted. The vocals had uncanny clarity. The soundstage extended a bit further back with each instrument existing in its own space. The roundness of attacks, especially with piano and brass instruments was replaced by a laserlike clarity. This is not to say it was clinical. To the contrary, each note carried warmth and bloom but still held its own identity even as the overtones blended and expanded. What one would hear as the characteristic glare associated with Redbook sound was handled by the Modwright in a very euphonic way. It emerged as a brilliant shine without a headache-producing glare. This effect worked decidedly to the Modwright's advantage when reproducing the sound of brass. I especially noticed it on trombone parts.
The other thing handled decidedly better by the Modwright were the dynamics of Linda's voice. As her volume would build and peak, the LP would begin to exhibit some thinness. This could be due, in part, to the fact that it is a twenty-year-old LP which has been played several dozen times. Still, while the tone of the note remained clear, it would lose body. Maybe this has to do with arm resonance. My knowledge of the physics associated with analog playback is limited. This is where the contrast and, I'm afraid, superiority of the Modwright was really illustrated. On the CD version, as the notes would build, so would their body. They would get tangibly more powerful as she expelled more air. In contrast, the notes would weaken slightly when played through the phono equipment.
On this album, side 2, the cut "Falling in Love Again" begins with a melody produced, I assume, with vibes. It's a glowing bell-like solo which sets the mood for the song. On the LP version, it is intriguing, musical, and engrossing. From the Modwright, it is absolutely stunning! It reaches out and grabs me as each note rings out solidly. Each note decays while its overtones are marvelously experienced. Again, one has the impression of a lead performer being spotlighted on a large stage.
So which is better? If I could choose only one, it would have to be the CD player. Fortunately, I don't have to choose only one. The analog experience is still special and to me, more intimate. What it lacks in fireworks, it compensates for in rich melodic, relaxed sound reproduction. I have to say that for me, the Modwright gives a more involving sound. I'm a more active listener, hearing elements of music reproduction that I am not accustomed to. Let me restate and emphasize that the two sources were quite similar. During the Ronstadt playback, I would sometimes lose track of which source I had selected and have to wait for a telling bit of acoustics to get it straight. I have to admit that prior to this player, I'd never taken digital sources all that seriously so some of my enthusiasm is undoubtedly due to novelty. I'm still very amused/gratified that I can repeat tracks, restart the disk or change the volume without getting off my butt. I'm finally really enjoying the convenience of CD now that I can get them to sound like music! |
Update: Steve (711smilin) called, and it looks as though the listening and comparison session is on for next Saturday, the 29th. Probably from 1pm till ?
For planning please email me with your preferred time, afternoon or evening, in case there are more people than space available, and I'll send you directions. Preference will be given to those bringing a player mentioned previously in this thread, but all are welcome. BYOB if you like, I'll provide all the munchies, soft drinks and water. For an idea at the back end of the system, click the "click here" link near the top of the products page on my website (my username, .com). Please let me know whether your player has single ended, balanced, or both kinds of outputs.
Brian |
Musicfirst,
Because I have received many personal e-mails suggesting that this thread is biased towards Alex and APL (please view the total history of this thread and in particular Richard Kern of AudioMod's complaints earlier in the thread) we have asked posters to direct any technical or personal questions about Alex's products, whereabouts, services etc to Alex directly. I'm sorry that Alex did not return your phone calls for two days but that is really no concern of this thread.
Thanks in advance for your cooperation!
AVGURU |
|
Sorry folks, a general reminder to keep comments pure audiophilic in nature and to avoid postings concerning commercial transactions with manufacturers, or personal requeststs for transaction prioritazation. Thank you for your understanding. |
yeah, that's the word i got from alex, too.
although, it would be greatly appreciated if all of you would refrain from ordering anything from alex until he's shipped my (hopefully repaired) meitner sacd1000 back to me. i'd hate for him to be too distracted.
;-p |
Alex was in the ER last week with a kidney stone, which apparently measured 5mm. He wrote me the next morning. Honestly, I don't know how he did that! |
Kerry,
Alex has not been feeling well these past few days so bear with the delay. I was in touch with him earlier today. |
Hello everyone! Well for the most part, the hook is set and I want to get my name on the APL waiting list, but I can't seem to reach Alex. Phone messages and E-mails over the last two days have so far been unanswered. I know I'm being a little impatient, but you know when the bug bites, ya gotta scratch!
Tomorrow I'm thinking I'll try Smoke Signals, Telepathy or Channelling #;)>.
Does anyone know if Alex is away or otherwise indisposed?
Thanks
Kerry |
DBLD, as AVGURU mentioned I did listen to the Bel Canto PL1-A in New York, together with the Burmester 001 and the Esoteric X-01. My detailed findings are posted at the following URL:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1090867688&openfrom&3&4#3
In a nutshell, the Bel Canto produced a huge but somewhat unstable soundstage with floating images in the three dimensions. Bass was extremely tight, transient coherence was excellent, and microdynamics was good, bbut not quite as good as in Esoteric X-01. Here appear to be a residual thinness in the midrange. You will find more detail at the URL listed above. |
Here's another mod question, has anyone has experience with the VSE level 4 mod?
http://www.vacuumstate.com/
Boy, I am just full of questions lately...sorry.
Dave |
Avguru,
I'd like to add a question: How long have these been warmed up before listening? As we know, some gear changes dramatically with warm up. If I'm willing to wait, say 1 hour, for gear to reach it's maximum, then I'm not too interested in players that take longer, nor would I know the full potential of those that have not had a sufficient warm up. I realize this isn't easy to do when you are listening to so many players.
I appreciate the effort being made for the shootouts (and know how much fun they can be), but it would be really great if a few modders would designate units that would be sent to different groups such as yours, so more people could hear them for themselves. I'm not mentioning this for myself, I have an APLhifi denon 3910 on order, but I do think it would be beneficial to both potential customers and the modders.
Phil |
Yes, I did, but not under very good conditions. It was in a small room. |
Tbg,Did you get a chance to hear this player at the CES.Thanks,Bob |
TBG,
Sorry you feel that way. You are always welcome as a contributor to this thread. All I ask is that if you have personal issues with me or any other poster that you direct your comments to them outside of this thread.
AVGURU |
Boa,
I will answer your questions in regards to my listening style (what I look for) as we get closer to the shootout. We will probably set up some type of written evaluation form with parameters that everyone can agree to. Then we will compare the results as notated on each person's form. That's probably the best way to do it.
AVGURU |
Dave,
I had it in my system for a week and Guido also had an extended listening session with it. I will let Guido respond since he writes so eloquently and can also wax philisophical about the pro's and con's of this fine multi-faceted player.
AVGURU |
Has anyone here ever heard the Bel Canto PL-1 or PL-1A?
I am curious and pose this question here since there is a wealth of knowledge in this thread. This player has gotten some favorable reviews as a cdp even though it too is a universal, and is priced in the same ballpark as the DV-50.
Dave |
I would probably bring Eric, He own a Mod Sony by
Richard Kern,so will see. |
Guido,
I meant to say the X01 instead of the UX1. Regarding the Ayre, someone also at the show told me it sounded very "clinical" but I love Ayre prodcuts and will certainly try to get it. My local dealer still doesn't have one yet but is expecting one any day.
AVGURU |
Wish I could be there.
My request is that before you render your individual and/or consensus evaluation, would each of you please answer the following questions:
1) What kind of music do you predominantly listen to?
2) What do you listen for while evaluating a component? In other words, are you listening primarily with an ear for critical analysis? Is the best player the one that is the most accurate? Or do you listen perhaps for an overall immersion into the music? I find this is key in knowing what sonic pyramid that person is climbing.
3) How long have you been into high end audio?
4) How long do you expect to have your next player before scouting for another?
Thanks for considering these (and other) pieces of background information, all which is helpful in knowing more about the person who is evaluating the product.
Have fun listening, guys! |
Avguru et al.: How about a week from Saturday (Jan 29), here?
Brian |
AVGURU, the new AIR CX-5 would be an interesting player to add to the mix.
A friend of mine heard it at CES and found it to be marvellous. If you could replace UX-1 with X-01 it may be a good idea, because X-01 has twice the DACs on its two channel outputs. |
Boa2,
I agree that the wait is much too long and I wish I could speed things up. Unfortunately, we are waiting on a bevy of players to arrive before we do the shoot-out.
Here is the anticipated line up of players and the personnel who will bring them:
AVGURU (ME)- Esoteric UX1, Classe CDP 100 (new series), Marantz SA 14, Exemplar 2900, Meridan G08. I either own or have access to all of these units whenever I need them. I sold my DV-50.
Jactoy- Modwright Sony 9000ES.
711 Smilin- Will soon have both the Modwright 3910 and the APL 3910.
1Markr- Will soon have the Modwright Sony 999ES. He also owns the Audio Aero Capitole DAC.
Additionally, there are a couple of people we know who own the Meitner but no committments yet on whether or not they'll participate.
I honestly believe it will be another 2-3 three weeks before 711 and 1Markr have their units in hand. Once they do, we will arrange the shoot-out (if everyone's schedules permits) for the following week...preferably a Saturday.
I think the group of players listed above represents a wide sampling of some of the best tube and stock players on the market today. Having the Meitner would be the icing on the cake.
Facing these units off in a system that is as neutral as possible would at least give everyone an idea of the strenghts/weaknesses of each player. That's all any shoot-out can realistically hope to accomplsih as the ultimate performance of any player is system dependent.
If anyone has any other players they would like to see included (assuming we have access to them)please let us know. Just keep in mind that we will only have so much time.
AVGURU |
Heck, I'm waiting for 711smilin to get his Modwright machine, break it in, and then provide some feedback.
Dave |
Jsala, I would prefer to await the unit I will be getting. |
This is the longest 7th inning stretch ever. Let's get back to the game? Avguru, what's next? |
TBG,
Could you tell us more about your impressions of the APL 3910? |
Avguru, I think you tainted yourself in assuming the moderator role. I think when magazines accepted advertising they also tainted themselves to charges, whether warranted or not.
I must admit that I would be paying little attention to APL's unit were it not for your shootout, but I would never use the shootout as a buying decision anymore than I would buy based on a Stereophile or TAS review. I see no further use for this thread and think it ending with this division was inevitable. |
Dbld, I was told that it betters the UX1 and X01. As for availability, there were only two demos at CES 2005 and those were sold on the spot. Please understand that I am telling this information as it was told to me by a dealer who sells both Esoteric and Accustic Art gear. |
Kana813,
In looking through the history of your posts on this thread it does seem that I incorrectly attributed the "shootouts are useless" comment to you when in fact it was Tbg who said it. My apologies.
However, I do not apologize for my efforts to restore order and focus to this thread. I will continue with those efforts until this thread comes to fruition.
AVGURU
|
Orjazzm - which Esoterics is the Accustic Arts Surround Player 1 being compared to? And, where/when in the states can this this thing be seen/heard?
Dave |
Tbg,
Somebody had to step in and take control of a thread that was clearly getting out of hand. Anybody could have done it but no one else wanted to. I was receiving e-mails from other posters asking me to do something. Although it has lessened to a great degree, people are still taking "pot shots" and making personal remarks against others even though I've asked everyone not to do so.
For example, look at your comment..why is it necessary for you to criticize me for labeling myself the moderator? What purpose does that serve? I made my comments (and my self imposed title) over two weeks ago and yet you're still talking about it? Why?
If trying to restore order to a thread and making commentators show respect for each other is vain then I gladly wear that label. If I have to call myself the moderator in order to accomplish that then again I will gladly take your criticism. If I have to enlist the help of A-gon staff to temper the rhetoric on this thread then I will do that also.
When I made my comments I stated then there would be those who wouldn't be happy with what I had to say. And I also strongly suggested that those who weren't had every right to leave this thread and start their own. That option is also available to you.
Please, let's move on!
AVGURU |
"I am still struck that a poster can also serve as a moderator, although I think avguru has been open, although perhaps with too much vanity showing."
Tbg- Excellent point. I'm still waiting for an apology from avguru-poster/moderator for being accused of making a statement made by you. |
Uh oh guys seems like there's a new universal coming from Accustic Arts called the Surround 1, that's supposed to be killer. According to a source it's better than the Esoterics and $4K cheaper. Might be an interesting contender in a shootout. |
I listened to the APL 3910 at CES and talked extensively with Alex. One thing is certain, Alex thinks his unit is superior to the Exemplar. After listening to it at CES, I certainly am not prepared to agree. No amount of salesmanship can overcome my need to hear it myself, and hopefully soon I will have that chance.
As a political science professor, I fully expect politics to be involved everywhere, although I might prefer it not to be. I have heard many stories involving this shootout, none of which I can substantiate, but all of this does not matter to me as I will not believe a comparison unless I am there, and as was the case a VSAC, often not even then if the venue is not suitable as was the case there.
I am still struck that a poster can also serve as a moderator, although I think avguru has been open, although perhaps with too much vanity showing. |
Love my Exemplar modded 2900 but need to sell it (see my ad if you are interested). As soon as I am able I will not hesitate to by a modded CDP. It is definitely the way to go to get the best sound at a fraction of the cost of the big money gear. |
The Reimyo 777 I briefly got to hear but the 3910 was not broken in yet. Another comparison will be done as soon as I do a valid a- b . I have met a fellow AG member and he has one and said we could do something soon . Stay tuned. |
PSCIALLI, you may want to relate to the thread your recent interesting experience with the Sony ModWright after you realized that your power cabling topology was. . . suboptimal. Thanks, Guido |
