Is there are anyone out there who has compared the Esoteric DV-50 to a number of dedicated red book only players (or other universal's) and found one that is SIGNIFICANTLY better?
I stress significantly because in my humble opinion the redbook playback (if comparison unit is just a cd cd player only )must be significantly better to justify losing DVD-A, SACD and DVD-Video capability.
I keep hearing there are better one box solutions and being a die hard 2 channel fan I would sell my DV-50 if I found a player in the same price range that sounds significantly better. But every time I do an AB comparision to other well respected units the DV-50 has slayed each and every one.
So far, it has eaten the lunch of the Classe CDP-10, Ayre CX-7, Linn Ikemi, Cairn Fog Vers. 2, Cary 306/300, Arcam DV 27A and CD 33T, Myryad CD 600, etc. It even betters a Sony SCD 777ES/MF Tri-Vista 21 transport/dac combo that I previously owned. I'm only comparing the DV-50 to single box cd or universal players, but I just wanted to mention the Sony/MF combo. I'm sure there are some dac/transport combo's that will handily beat the DV 50.
Some may say that the DV 50 should beat all the above because the of price point ($5,500 vs. average price of $3,000 for the above players). But I disagree since conventional wisdom says that stand alone players (especially with the pedigree of those mentioned above) should produce better redbook than a universal player trying to be a jack of all trades. Only the DV 27A does video plus audio. By the way, I was very impressed with the 27A as just a cd player. Of all the above I would say the Ayre was the best.
Next on my list is the Electrocompaniet EMC 1UP and the Resolution Audio Opus 21. However, I must tell you I am really impressed with the DV 50 and all the great reviews are absolutely true. I've noticed that many people who are using it or comparing to other players are using the RCA analog outs instead of the balanced outs. There is a significant improvement in sound if you use the balanced outs and I'm only interested in hearing comments from people who have compared it against other players using the balanced outs on the DV-50.
My system components are as follows:
B&W N803's speakers & HTM-1 center Cary Cinema 5 (5 x 200) amp Anthem D1 Statement pre/pro Esoteric DV 50 Acoustic Zen Satori Shotgun speaker wire Nirvana SX balanced interconnects from DV-50 to Anthem Acoustic Zen Matrix reference II interconnects from D1 to Cary No after market power cords or isolation equipment
My system sounds great! Those who comment please make sure to specify what specific improvements you heard over the DV 50 and what cdp were you comparing it against.
Am I missing anything here? I WANT THE BEST ... You might be missing some cells in your brain .There is no best , stupid ...Only something that you will prefer to something else .I have a simple rule : never listen to someone who recommends something as the best .
and cd players. Back in 1990 I had a Cal Aria Mk3 cd player with tube output. It was very musical but had limited resolution. I spent a great deal of time moding that unit myself. I can still clearly remember the space/ambience and layering that unit had. So, with the higher resolution dacs and low jitter clocks now available. It is probably not very hard for a professional modder to come up with a killer tube output machine. Yes, time has marched on, but tubes and digital still are a magical combination. I go about it abit differently with a solid state unit into a balanced tube pre-amp. That also gives a nice result too. But not as magical as having the tube inside the cd/sacd player. All this is very frustrating when these "modestly" priced moded units are smoking many of the high dollar units. Really should not be the case, but you can't ignore the evidence.
Guido, I am getting the demo, so it should be plenty broken in. I am SERIOUS about this journey. From what I have been told by Alex, the VRDS transport is the bomb. Now we will see what these players are made of. I am going to take my time here, plus it will be another week or so till I get back the APL, from the new clock board installation. I put a call into Dan Wright to see if he will sell me his best, and also to John Tucker to get his best. Am I missing anything here? I WANT THE BEST.
Avguru -- Good review. 1markr -- I purchased a ModWright 999ES (Platinum) in late October. It is quite remarkable. The sound stage is extremely wide and deep. With the 999ES, I get a similar presentation as described by Avguru: "Each musician on the soundstage has his own open and airy space to perform." Most importantly, the lack of edge and rich harmonic sweetness is phenomenal. Very highly recommended.
711, ordering a mighty X-01 for yourself? I's bleeding proud of ya! But remember, the creature will need to be broken in 'real good' before it is worth conducting a meaningful shootout with it. Guido
I'd be interested in knowing what specific "improvements" you heard in the Tucker 2900 vs. the DV 50? In what areas did you think the modded 2900 was stronger? Where was it weaker (if any areas)?
Just curious to know if your hearing observations are similar to what we heard when comparing the 3910 to the DV 50. By the way, do you own the DV 50? Where did you do your listening comparision?
Reb1208,the Sony mod I have,dont have compression at all, thats why AVGURU describe the layering unforgettable. And amazing.The voice of Eva Cassidy sounded so palpable natural,the CD is (Imagine).Even the acoustic bass of her guitar it did sound so real.The other CD is Diane Schurr Avguru scream when He heard the voice of Diane,He told me its lush, like being in the bar for real.Even the string on this player they do sound real,no thin sounding. 711 and Avguru are not raelly on classical yet.When I played the Willie Nelson CD, Accross the Borderline, that define the Shoot out, they were enjoying every thing, this Sony played.How good is this Sony mod? I dont know.I will be waiting for 711 and Avguru when Esoteric 13k unit arrive,I would love to compare mine again.Lastly, what got 711 and Avguru is the emotions of this player, very musical. We also played Terry Evan Puttin it Down, #10,to show them the slam on this player.The slam did shook Steve speaker.Thanks, I hope this helps
Hi Guys: AVG...I've A/B'd the DV-50 directly against the Tucker modified 2900 and there is a definite improvement. How significant it is will depend on each listener. I've spoken with Tucker and he tells me that the 3910 he mods is quite a bit better than the 2900, so your "significantly" may lie there. He has a new upgrade available soon, proprietary through a manufacturer, which involves Crystal Cable instead of Siltech. This will improve the mod even more, so keep your ears open. I'll try to find out more if I can get in touch with him again. Till then: Happy music and sweet treats!
You guys are out of control!!!!!!!! I think the whole industry must be watching this thread. Incredible.....
I'll put my 2 cents in about what I heard in the Meitner gear. Easily the most open and non-compressed sounding digital I have heard. Run that thru a high quality tube linestage and I doubt there is "better" digital sound.
Guys: The Mac universal is going into production as I write this. It will retail for about $4,100. Chuck at Mac says that its SACD circuits will greatly reduce both the noise and distortion inherent in the SACD process. Stay tuned!
Ok guys, I just bought the Esoteric X-01, I will have AVGURU pick it up in the AM and bring to me, than we will know. BTW I have to ship my APL back to Alex this week for the NEW CLOCK he had custom made for the 3910. This should be fun.
I have heard extremely positive and great things about the Meitner combo (dac and transport). I have no doubt it is some of the finest digital gear in the world and totally crushes the DV 50. I've heard the SACD playback in particular is just amazing.
You are right that I don't want to go to a dac/tranport combo anymore. I prefer a one box solution. At this point 711 and I are arranging to obtain for demo purposes an X01. We will then do another demo going head to head with the X01 vs. the APL 3910...in addition to the new APL 3910 with Alex's modifed clock. We will probably add the modwright Sony to the mix also.
At that point I will be ready to make my buying decision based on the results of that shoot-out. From everything I've read from the reviews and people's comments the X01's performance is very close (at least 90%) to that of the Meitner gear. So, if the APL or Modwright gear is significantly better (by better I mean more musical)than the X01 I would expect that its also better than the Meitner gear. That may be a flawed "assumption" but in my mind its a logical conclusion. Plus, we are having a very difficult time finding a dealer who has a demo unit that they would allow us to take home for a "demo".
I suspect that I'm going to have a very hard time finding any solid state gear (Meitner, Esoteric or otherwise) that matches the musicality of tubed gear like the Exemplar and APL 3910's or the modwright Sony. There may be intrinsic qualities of tubes that add a touch of magic and warmth that no solid state equipment can match. That's what I hope to find out by comparing the two units.
I want the Esoteric equipment to win as I love everything about the technology, tranpsort and build quality behind it. Plus I can get a great deal on the price.
But in my "heart of hearts" I already know neither the Meitner nor the Esoteric is going to be as musical as the Modded players. It's hard to explain but once you hear three dimensional music with real imagages you can touch and feel and a soundstage that is palpable and lifelike..its awfully hard to accept anything less! Alec, John and Dan are doing some amzaing things with these modded units.
I need to hear from you guys that attended the comparisons about the specific types of music used to demo and judge the performance of the players. It will go a long way if you could place your thought in terms of the differences the music of these specific CDs changed with the different players.
For instance: The female vocals of xx CD sounded ?? on player a and ?? on player b, etc. Mass strings soundedÂ…Â… Acoustic bass from xx CD soundedÂ….
Do any of you guys have anything to share along those lines?
I beg to differ that I don't understand "the technical aspects of digital audio". I am very confident in what I do know. And as I told Alex I'm not going to engage in any more technical chatter as it takes this thread away from its intended purpose. Alex has offered to submit to me additional information and pictures to justify his position. We have ended our differences and I look forward to hearing his conclusions on whether or not he can use the DV 50 as a platform for one of his re-designs.
I'll just keep my "wild tales" to myself. Please make sure you do the same as I've never heard from you before nor has your name appeared on this thread previous to this. Your comments are unsolicited and very unnecessary at this point. If you are not bringing anything positive or worthwhile to the table don't bring anything at all!
Guidocorona and others who sugested using the VRDS; Thank you I appreciate it! I have already thought about it, but it will take substantial investment in building a player like that. I am personaly thinking of re-designing X-01 first and see what it will bring me. Oh well, may be some day...:-)
Alex and all other modifier on the thread, Teac is also OEMming a version of its VRDS transport. Wadia is apparently using it. Have you considered creating your own branded player using this OEM transport? Given what you have already done with Children Of Lesser Gods, your magic applied to the top TEAC transport may become absolutely unbeatable.
Rex, not to forget the vintage EAD T1000 transport I own, that is also based on a Pioneer transport. SJMGR, the TEAC Japan page you list is entire written in Japanese. Other than the fact that the P01/D01 combo appears to handle both CD and SACD format, there is no info I can extract from it. Can someone supply us with an English translation? It also looks like this combo is not available in the US at this time. Does anyone know if this will change in the future?
I am eagerly awaiting the new McIntosh universal player. The folks at Mac tell me that it has some significant new circuits to greatly reduce the distortion in SACD.
That's great the you've tried the new dac board on the 563a! What are the Tamura transformers? How do they compare with the Lundahls? How does the 563a + dac board compare with the modded 2900?
Finally, what's the output impedance of the 563a? I imagine the MOSFET output buffer gives it a pretty low output impedance. My amp has an input impedance of just 8k ohms.
Guidocorona - Teac is indeed using part of the Pioneer OEM kit for the DV-50. They use the laser assembly, some parts of the transport mechanism, and Pioneer's OS firmware.
The Pioneer OEM kit seems to be the most popular kit in the "univeral" world. A short list of companies using it:
- Ayre's upcoming "universal" player - Integra "universal" players - Lexicon RT-10 - the first batch of Marantz "universal" players - McCormack UDP-1 - Onkyo "universal" players - Yamaha "universal" players
And probably some others that I've forgotten.
Oh, and the Pioneers of course :-) BTW, the DV-59avi mentioned previously is not a Teac, it's Pioneer's top-line "universal" player.
When I had one, Richard Kern also had a unit. He was not able to come up with a substantial mod due to the circuit layout of the DV-50. I sold mine and he latter sold his.
Next I experimented with some of the inexpensive universal players, including the Pioneer. Truth is that the Pioneer had some similiar sonic traits to the DV-50. Most notably a full/round macro presentation to the sound.
Transports and their associated components are obviously at a minimum, half of the sonic equation of a given machine.
There are some older TEAC units floating about that did use VRDS. Perhaps these would be a good candidate to gut out and mod.
Avguru, have u had the chance to audition EMM Labs gear? Many in audiogon and others swear by it as I do (the new transport + DCC2). So I guess doesn't qualify for u as its two boz solution? But given it doesn't require a pre-amp (DDC2 has pre-amp functionality ..very neutral and clean), may woth checking out. Personally have tested agst DV-50 and its no contest for both SACDs and CDs. Far greater transparecy, air, top octave extension, decay etc. However I have not had the opp to personally audition either X01 or the mod versions of Sony etc. Some reviewers have however on the latter in comparison to Meitner gear and continue swear by EMM Labs
AVGURU, It is interesting to read your comments. You are right, we should not turn this to something we do not want to...:-). The truth (my truth) is that I have seen with my own eyes a Spectral Analysis of re-sampled CD with sample by sample accuracy. There are many errors in the re-sampled file and the spectrum is pretty much as the original. Anyway, we do not have to go further on that one.
When I get the DV-50 I will send you a picture of the Laser pick up and the tracking mechanism so you can see it...:-)
If I am to work with the DV-50 everything inside for the main Stereo channels will be bypassed. All I am going to use is its transport/DSP section, just the way I do with the Denon. I will let you know how it goes.
Thanks for your comments. I am not going to get into a long theoretical and technical disertation with you on the merits of oversampling vs. "resampling", nor am I going to debate who makes the best Analog DSP Chip, nor am I going to debate the superiority of who has the better transport.
But I will say this:
Oversampling or re-sampling is widely used by many consumer electronics companies involved in musical equipment manufacturing and musical reproduction. Keyboard companies like Yamaha, Korg and Roland use oversampling to produce better and more realistic piano, drum and orchestral sounds on their keyboards. Audio companies like Ayre, Cary, Esoteric, Arcam use oversampling to produce better sounding, higher fidelity equipment audio equipment.
True, whether this is better or not is subjective based based on the preferences of the listener. But to my ears and millions of other consumers who are buying these products, resampling offers major improvements that are audibly discernable and desirable. To my ears, oversampling (when done correctly) is a pleasant enhancement that brings about a sense of higher fidelity and a more realistic sound. I agree with you that it does not (using your words) "improve the sound of the cd" which I think is more aptly put as "improve the music recorded on the cd" but it DOES offer the potential of making what's already there much more pleasureable, richer in tonal texuture and increasing the detail presented. Oversampling doesn't always sound better but I find I prefer it much more than I don't prefer it.
It just makes sense that the more you take an original waveform and sample it "over and over again" you increase the resolution, detail and fullness of the original waveform. In the case of the high rez formats like SACD and DVD-A, they theoretically have the ability to actually reach these higher sampling rates/frequency. So audio mfg's have started incorporating DAC's that can interpolate a 16 bit word length to 24 bit and then re-sample it 192,000 times per second in an attempt to re-create these higher frequency rates that are an inherent part of these formats.
Anytime you re-sample a waveform this many times (and that fast) there will be errors in the reproduction of the 0's and 1's that represent the digital information. This is commonly known as jitter...or better yet timing jitter errors. And you are right, some of that information CAN BE LOST in the re-sample process.
However, the trick to resampling is in the post filtering process that attempts to re-create the lost information. On the really high end units this filtering process is quite sophisticated, occurs in mulitple stages, substantially reducing and virtually eliminating these errors to the point where they have little effect on the music we hear.
Regarding the Analog DSP, whether or not one chip is better (whatever that means) is really irrevelant. The selection of a particular chip by a manufacturer is usually determined by need, functionality and design criteria rather than what's the best out there. If a particular chip can do DSD conversion for SACD and offer the best bass management it may be construed as being the best chip. But if the mfg wants to convert the DSD stream to PCM (or better yet if the player doesn't offer SACD)or if the mfg decides not to offer extensive bass management features, then using the best most expensive chip is not important and does not add any improvements to the functionality of his unit.
At the price point of the DV 50 I'm sure the engineers could have "afforded" to incorporate the Analog Devices chip of the 2900. And I hope you're not trying to suggest that Denon uses better quality parts for their machine vs. the Esoteric because THAT IS CERTAINLY NOT TRUE. DENON IS A MARKETING COMPANY STRICTLY THINKING ABOUT MOVING LARGE NUMBERS OF WIDGETS, MAINTAINING OR INCREASING THEIR MARKET SHARE AND MAKING THE HIGHEST PROFIT POSSIBLE. IF THERE'S ANY COMPANY OUT THERE THAT DOES "REALLY GOOD MARKETING" AS YOU PUT IT IT IS DENON. My guess is that Esoteric did not use the chip because there was no performance advantage in using it.
Yes, I was referring to the top lens of the laser transport when I was talking about the thin wires. Thank you for your correction as I was writing very fast. However, you will find when you receive the DV 50 that it does not use the thin wire in the same configuration as 99% of the other units on the market. I stand by my original comments. And I am confused as to how you know this for a fact when you've never modded a DV 50 before? Mfg's routinely use Pioneer and Philips transports and modify them for their own use.
Anyway, I've enjoyed our dialogue on the issues above and I graciously "bow out"asI don't want to turn this thread into something other than what it was meant. I am anxious to see what you can do with the DV 50 in terms of modifications. When do you think you will have an idea of what improvements (if any) you can add? If I can make a suggestion, please look at the 5.1 channel analog outs as a start. The rca's are of average quality and the dac's are nowhere near the same quality of the 2 channel dac's. The improvements alone would substantially increase the multi-channel performance of this unit.
Hi guys, a bit late to jump in here as the thread has just been brought to my attention. The shootout was certainly interesting and I am obviously pleased with the results.
I believe that this has been cleared up already, but the unit we modified for the customer in question is the Sony DVPS-9000ES, not the XA-9000ES.
RE the 3910, we do have a unit here that we are working on and I am impressed with the stock unit. I have some 'new' parts on order to complete the work and I will be posting when the mods are available. We will be selling complete new units with mods at that time.
The 2900 and 3910 transports are absolutelly identical. The tray loading mechanis, and clamper were re-designed in the 3910 and although it makes a cheap funny noise it is better than the 2900. What makes the 3910 a winner is its better Audio DSP design. The major flaw with the 3910 is its Master Clock circuit. The 3910 owned by 711 Smilin has compromised Master Clock upgrade which is still not to my liking and is about to be completely removed (bypassed and disabled) from the machine. My new coming Master Clock generator will be installed soon. If my 3910 sounds good now, just wait until I upgrade it with the new Master Clock.
I hope you are doing well! BTW, the 563a with the new DAC board is now reality. I just completed the first one. I now have a option of using Tamura transformers for its Analog stage. It sounds really amazing.
Denon uses their famed ALU processing (an arithmetic logarithm) to "interpolate" a word length of 24 bits from a standard 16 bit redbook cd. They've been using this technology for the last 10 years in everything from their recievers to their dvd players to their cd players.
>>> Denon has refined their algorithm for the 24 bit expansion. There are many other companies using similar techniques. Philips SACD1000 and even the little Pioneer 563a are also expanding to 24 bit. Of course, the “engine” incorporated to do the job is really important. In the Denon 3910 case, as I mentioned earlier, this is done by World’s best “hands down” Analog Devices SHARC Audio DSP.
This is a proprietary process that Denon has developed. Other more "hi-fi" companies such as Ayre, Cary, Arcam etc accomplish the same feat through a different process that I'm not technical enough to explain. But the results speak for themselves and I don't think most people reading this post feel that Denon's sound is anywhere close to the performance levels of the companies mentioned above. And to be honest, there are great 1 bit cd players on the market today that sound incredibly good. So I'm not even sure if interpolating data to a larger bit stream is critical to obtaining great sound.
>>> See the above answer. The Bitstream conversion has nothing to do with the bit rate expansion.
Regarding upsampling (atually there's no such thing and it should be referred to as oversampling)your comment "there's no theoretical or practical advantadge to upsampling the cd" is not true. While Denon may have come to this decision after reviewing the overall design and performance criteria of their units, there are many other companies (including Marantz which is now owned by Denon) that are very high on the concept and use it with regularity. Ayre, Arcam, Cary, Musical Fidelity, Esoteric, etc are but a few of the companies that routinely use oversampling in their cd players and with GREAT RESULTS! All of the above companies are much more highly respected than Denon when it comes to their engineering design and "know how".
>>> Oversampling and Upsampling (actually Re-sampling) are two different things. It does not matter to me what the other companies do with “GREAT RESULTS” because whatever they do does not sound right. The Re-sampling to any rate does not improve the quality of a CD. This can be clearly seen in a Spectral Analysis after Re-sampling which I have done using the best CD/DVD mastering program available in the World. It is also clearly stated in their instruction manual that re-sampling the CD will NOT improve the audio quality. Further more, when CD is re-sampled to 96 KHz or 192 KHz there is actual loss of information because these frequencies do not divide by 44.1KHZ but to 48 KHz. So mathematical truncation is used for the conversion. Re-sampling to 96 or 192 makes it actually worse than just keeping it as 44.1 but is really good marketing bringing a lot of money.
I agree that oversampling is not always necessary to achieve good sounding cd playback. But I just want to make it clear to everyone reading your comments that was a decision Denon made and reasons could be varied...anywhere from cost concerns to the design of their unit not being compatible with oversampling. You will note that on Esoterics's UX1 player they decided not provide all of the oversampling options available on the DV 50. One of the primary reasons for this was the design of their transport made it unnecessary to do so.
>>> That was a wise decision for Teac. Again, oversampling is something different that happens in the Digital Filter for PCM and uses LINEAR interpolation. The transport has nothing to do with that.
Regarding the DV-50's transport being the same as the Pioneers, please do not understate the importance/impact of adding the clamping mechanism...which reduces jitter and allows the laser mechanism to track the disc in a more linear and accurate fashion. In my mind this modification alone puts the Esoteric transport on a higher level above the Pioneer. Furthermore, the laser tracking mechanism and the laser wavelengths (which are adjustable) help by determining how far the player is capable of digging in to the "cd pits" and obtaining the recorded information.
>>> The clamper is nicer, I agree, but this is not necessarily removing the jitter from the transport. Also the clamper has nothing to do with the Laser tracking. The Laser tracking mechanism and laser wavelengths (which can not be adjustable) remain untouched and original to the Pioneer transport found in the DV-50.
As you know, many laser tracking mechanisms travel on a thin wire that in itself is subject to vibration. The better companies such as Esoteric do not use this method..or they use a better version. In my mind the outer housing,laser mechansim, etc are all part of the transport and in this regard the Esoteric does have a better transport than the Denon. You are free to disagree as I'm sure you will.
>>> There is no Laser mechanism that travels on thin wires. If you are referring to the actual top lens of the Laser pick up then yes it is suspended in thin wires in 99% of the cases including DV-50. The ONLY laser pick up in the World to date using pure magnetic field for the top lens suspension in the Laser pick up and radial primary tracking is Philips. As I mentioned above, the Laser tracking mechanism in the DV-50 is not upgraded in any way from its original Pioneer state.
Regarding comparing the DSP (Digital Surround processing)chips in both units that really doesn't concern me as I'm much more interested in analog audio performance (op amps, DAC's and their associated filtering processes) than I am with digital processing..most of which is associated with video and digital processing speed. Is the Denon the better DVD player? Probably.
Do I care? NO!
Is HDCD a nice feature to have? Maybe to some but not to me since the in my listening tests the use of the three oversampling filters can bring a level of resolution to cd's that's better than HDCD.
>>> DSP stands for Digital Signal Processing and I was referring strictly to the AUDIO DSP in the Denon which, again, is superior to the one in DV-50. As for the HDCD decoding, you really need to hear how HDCD sounds with the Denon 3910 compared to other HDCD or non HDCD machines. The Analog Devices DSP is practically unbeatable.
Alex, 711 has given me several extended listening auditions of your units and I think they sound incredible..much better than the DV 50 in terms of musicality. And if you are successful in bringing the DV 50 to a level of performance on par with your APL 3910 I will gladly be one of your next customers requesting an upgrade. But I just had to respond to your comments and imho the build quality, transport and overall engineering found in the DV 50 is on a much higher level than the 3910. To be able to use the lesser Denon platform and take it to a level of performance that surpasses the DV 50 is high praise indeed and a testament to your modding skills!
>>> I am glad that you liked my 3910. It is actually not modded, it is my own machine. All I use from it is its transport and DSP just like many other companies like Krell, Musical Fidelity (Philips). Marantz (Philips, Sony, Pioneer). Teac (Pioneer), etc. The digital information from the transport is taken to my own DAC board then to my own tubed Analog stage which are powered by my own power supply.
The only better thing about DV-50 compared the Denon is its much nicer enclosure, nothing else. Of course, the DV-50 DACs, Analog stage and Power supply might be and I am sure are much better than the Denon, but I do not have any reasons to care about that because I completely bypass and disable them with my re-design. Since ALL I care is the transport and DSP of a given machine, the Denon 3910 makes better platform than the DV-50 at least theoretically. I do have DV-50 coming in for evaluation so the results will be announced soon.
Now, if you ask me which machine in current production features the best transport, I will say it is Teac VRDS in the UX-1 and X-01. There is nothing better currently available. I can not comment on their DSP though. It would be nice to use one of these for a platform but their price tag is really high. Who knows, I might be able to do it some day.
I apologize for the spelling of my last post, I did not have proper lighting in my room, my father in law is recuperating here from cancer surgury, I had my HT showing Law and Order, his fav, and the lights were out. I will try to be better in the future.
No Disc, glad your feeling better.
Guys, I have also ordered the top of the line Esoteric from quintessince audio to compare in my system, when it arrives, I invite those who would like to hear, and experience, to email me.
If you know where I can purchase other HIGH END digital, in my area, with the right to return, without fee's, I would much appreciate. This would include the Meitner Dcc2, DCS-Elgar, Reimyo, ect. My cards can handle it, and I will buy the best. Yes, I am obsessed with finding, and owning, what IMHO is the best digital source.
Reb, if you are ever in the area, email me and we can get together, I have had different experiences, and I feel my system is very revealing.
AXGURU, thanks for the complimenets of my system. I need to clarify the cornwall facts, I said I have 1200 into the pair, including new crossovers, made by a fellow klipsch lover Dean, from the Klipsh forum, I also had cardas binding posts put in so I can take the Niles switching box out of my signal path. The VRD's are mad by Craig Ostby of NPSValves, also from the Klipsch forum. I added NOS Gold Lion KT88's, Mullard fat base 5AR4, mullard 12AX7, and Amperex 12AU7 phase splitter. I chose to have almost unlimited SPL for our session, and you did not get to hear the Cardinal X1's with the Western Electric 300B's. I still caqnnot find a better speaker for my awful room under 10k used. Any suggestions would be great. I belive a lot of people in the pursuit of wonderful audio, poo poo Klipsch as being low end, or colored. I feel that the cornwalls are some of the BEST speakers in the world under 10 grand, maybe more. I used to be a yuppie shopper, now, I try to shop with what I hear, with my ears in my system. I am amazed myself, that my speakers are the cheapest part of my system, sans wire. I am now embarking on that journey too, and hope I do not go too nutz. AVGURU, I believe you were taking Alex wronf when he chimed in, but I will leave that to you 2 guys.
I have been having a blast with this journey, and learning quite a lot along the way.
I have tried not to make blanket statements, and to keep an open mind, and ears here. If some of you have construed me to be a bit overzealous, I apologize. Bear with me, and us as we venture into more in depth comparisons in the future. I will try not to make any rash judgements. I do have opinions, so far, but, all is subject to change.
Tvad, you are right that there is no one holy grail, just as I realized I have yet to find 1 amplifier that make me totally happy, I fear I must have 2 digital sources too. In this journey, if we want to be done, we need to settle, some where. But, at this time, I am not ready.
711's sytem sounds very good. I had never heard or seen Cornwalls before (but I've seen them discussed favorably on Audiogon) and therefore I was pleasantly surpised by the sound. I must tell you however that 711 has had these speakers modded to the tune of about $1,200 so they are not OEM anymore.
My impressions: Dynamic as hell, easy to drive, play loud and the hoarn loaded tweeter doesn't miss any frequencies including those heard by dogs! Also very good bass response and mid-range but the tweeters and dynamics are definitely the strong points. The Center fill imaging was also very impressive. They are definitely full sounding even though they are not shaped like a traditional floor-stander (they are wide like a rectange but maybe only 25 inches tall. Some of the bass drum and low end orchestral sounds we were getting were phenomenal. Mfg's love to exaggerate the low end response of their speakers but I would say these can get down to a realistic 30 HZ at a reasonable volume before starting to roll off.
Regarding the VRD tubed power amps, I had never heard those either. But what was amazing to me was even though we were using a tubed cd player and tube amps the sound was never overyly warm or syrupy, there was plenty of dynamics and the system cranked out some very high db's without a hiccup or any sense of strain. Plus transparency was very good, which I believe to be a function of both the cd player and the amp.
Mid-range clarity was also a strong point and that is where I think they really excelled. I felt there were times where the bass control could have been a little tighter. It was good but didn't put a "chokehold" (in terms of control) on the bass like some of the Krell or Levension amps I've heard.
711 does not have an ideal room configuration which makes the sound we heard even more amazing. I'm sure 711 can fill you in on better details than I.
I thought I did lay out both the similarities and differences in my lenghty shoot-out results. If there is something specifically you are looking for or I missed please e-mail me with your phone number and we can discuss by phone.
Regarding the Audio Aero, I believe 711 has had that unit in his sytem for comparision purposes and both the the Exemplar and APL modified 3910 were better. Which is a really strong statement considering the AA Capitole is supposed to be one of the best standalone players (in terms of musicality)on the market.
I wish everyone could hear the APL & Exemplar Exemplar Denon's as well as the Modwright Sony's because its the musicality that's just amazing. A lot of us on Audiogon have very nice high end cd players and systems which reveal loads of detail, transparency, soundstage, imaging, etc but none of that means ANYTHING until you hear the modded Sony and APL play music!
Before I started this forum (I'm embarrassed to say this) I didn't really understand what 2 two and three dimensional music was. Terms like holographic I just took for granted...thinking since I had very high end the equipment the sound I was hearing must be holographic.
Now that I've really heard it I can never go back to music without it!
Avguru, Bravo..great review. When you compared the Dan Wright Modded Sony to the other players, could you comment on the differences that was heard when playing and comparing CD's...and SACD's.
I have no poblem doing another audition at your place in Elgin. The only Dali dealer in the Chicago area is in Elgin (I forget the name of the audio store). I've been dying to hear some Dali speakers. They consistently receive killer reviews!
Before I come I'd like to know the components in your system (speakers, amps, etc) so I can prepare myself accordingly.
Interesting comments on the Denon's transport and DSP -- are there many differences between the Denon 2900 and 3910? In terms of final product, we have read here on audiogon that your modded 3910 is better than your 2900.
Can you guys share the music used to evaluate the machines? Specific CDs, SA-CD would be helpful. Any comments comparing the sounds of the different players referenced to the specific CDs/Music would go a long way to helping me understand more of your comments.
Can any of you guys provide some meaningful commentary about the similiarities, contrasts and preferences between the Exemplar 3910, the APL 3910 and the Modwright 9000ES (I'm actually considering the 999ES)? Your first hand listening experiences speak volumes!
I'm currently running an Audio Aero 24/192k DAC, so if you have any opinions on it vs. these other three, I would be interested in hearing about that as well.
Thanks for all your digitial efforts! Mark - Northbrook, IL
Sounds as though you all had fun. Although the overall results aren't too surprising they're quite interesting. Seems the modded players did at least as well as the other units auditioned. But then I'd have to hear it for myself in a high resolution system. For what it's worth, I'd put my tweaked, no longer available, redbook gear up against anything else out there regardless of cost. I have nothing to gain by saying this since I don't currently sell any digital equipment unless you count cables, but you're all welcome to bring on all challengers sometime and see how they do. Allow plenty of time for equipment warmup (my transport takes a long time which is why it's always on) and stay for pizza. I'm in the northwest suburbs. My system listing can be found at http://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/237.html
711 has been requesting that we meet to compare his 3910 and my Sony Sony SCD-777ES - Richard Kern modded into the test mix. I was reluctant before because I felt the results would be meaningless if it were just him and I. Since there are more ears now, I would be willing to participate.
I've got plenty of room so we could do it here. I'm in Elgin.
APLHIFI, are you sure Teac is using third party transports in DV-50? As Teac is a relatively broad-spectrum vertical integrator, the hypothesis about Teac using Pioneer parts seems--prima face--somewhat unusual. By the way what is a DV-59AVI? The product is not on the US Esoteric site. Is it something new we should know about, or is it a Pioneer product?
Denon uses their famed ALU processing (an arithmetic logarithm) to "interpolate" a word length of 24 bits from a standard 16 bit redbook cd. They've been using this technology for the last 10 years in everything from their recievers to their dvd players to their cd players.
This is a proprietary process that Denon has developed. Other more "hi-fi" companies such as Ayre, Cary, Arcam etc accomplish the same feat through a different process that I'm not technical enough to explain. But the results speak for themselves and I don't think most people reading this post feel that Denon's sound is anywhere close to the performance levels of the companies mentioned above. And to be honest, there are great 1 bit cd players on the market today that sound incredibly good. So I'm not even sure if interpolating data to a larger bit stream is critical to obtaining great sound.
Regarding upsampling (atually there's no such thing and it should be referred to as oversampling)your comment "there's no theoretical or practical advantadge to upsampling the cd" is not true. While Denon may have come to this decision after reviewing the overall design and performance criteria of their units, there are many other companies (including Marantz which is now owned by Denon) that are very high on the concept and use it with regularity. Ayre, Arcam, Cary, Musical Fidelity, Esoteric, etc are but a few of the companies that routinely use oversampling in their cd players and with GREAT RESULTS! All of the above companies are much more highly respected than Denon when it comes to their engineering design and "know how".
I agree that oversampling is not always necessary to achieve good sounding cd playback. But I just want to make it clear to everyone reading your comments that was a decision Denon made and reasons could be varied...anywhere from cost concerns to the design of their unit not being compatible with oversampling. You will note that on Esoterics's UX1 player they decided not provide all of the oversampling options available on the DV 50. One of the primary reasons for this was the design of their transport made it unnecessary to do so.
Regarding the DV-50's transport being the same as the Pioneers, please do not understate the importance/impact of adding the clamping mechanism...which reduces jitter and allows the laser mechanism to track the disc in a more linear and accurate fashion. In my mind this modification alone puts the Esoteric transport on a higher level above the Pioneer. Furthermore, the laser tracking mechansim and the laser wavelengths (which are adjustable) help by determining how far the player is capable of digging in to the "cd pits" and obtaining the recorded information.
As you know, many laser tracking mechanisms travel on a thin wire that in itself is subject to vibration. The better companies such as Esoteric do not use this method..or they use a better version. In my mind the outer housing,laser mechansim, etc are all part of the transport and in this regard the Esoteric does have a better transport than the Denon. You are free to disagree as I'm sure you will.
Regarding comparing the DSP (Digital Surround processing)chips in both units that really doesn't concern me as I'm much more interested in analog audio performance (op amps, DAC's and their associated filtering processes) than I am with digital processing..most of which is associated with video and digital processing speed. Is the Denon the better DVD player? Probably.
Do I care? NO!
Is HDCD a nice feature to have? Maybe to some but not to me since the in my listening tests the use of the three oversampling filters can bring a level of resolution to cd's that's better than HDCD.
Alex, 711 has given me several extended listening auditions of your units and I think they sound incredible..much better than the DV 50 in terms of musicality. And if you are successful in bringing the DV 50 to a level of performance on par with your APL 3910 I will gladly be one of your next customers requesting an upgrade. But I just had to respond to your comments and imho the build quality, transport and overall engineering found in the DV 50 is on a much higher level than the 3910. To be able to use the lesser Denon platform and take it to a level of performance that surpasses the DV 50 is high praise indeed and a testament to your modding skills!
AVGURU, Curious about your opinion of 711Smilin's system OTHER than the CD players. Seems the results were similiar at both your places. What did you think of the cornwalls and VRDs?
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
