Mgottlieb,
Thanks for your response. It was very thorough. Sorry you feel the thread is getting old. The feedback I'm getting is that its one of the best threads going with more and more people hopping on and adding their comments! Can't tell you how many phone calls I and other members have received and exchanged because of this thread.
Please don't take my remark "digital guru" seriously. I was just having fun! I only said it because it seems you have owned and currently own some of the best digital gear of anyone on the thread. When I say "best" I'm speaking in relative terms of price and the fact your gear is generally considered to be the best on the market today. I wanted to hear your opinion because you've owned some of the best gear so you have first hand knowledge of its performance.
Stay with us, MGottlieb. We need your open minded and unbiased viewpoint...as well as your constant reminders that no one really knows what sounds best or what a cd "should sound like".
AVGURU |
Mgottlieb,
Bravo on your post, well said. |
Avguru and Jayctoy: If you go back and look at everything I've said, I have never claimed that anything I have or have heard is the best there is or can be. Usually what draws a comment from me is someone else's suggestion that something is "the best" or really gets what's on the source. And this skepticism extends to reviewers as well: a friend of mine who distributes a couple of well known and pricey products assures me that if you saw the listening rooms in which many reviewers listen to new products you wouldn't believe a word they say. As to specific questions:
1. I have heard very few modded products, but I have no reason to believe that a talented modifier can't work wonders with a stock product, most of which are built to a price point. If a manufacturer wants to sell something for $2000, but would need to charge $2200 to sell it with a better internal component and therefore chooses not to use it, why shouldn't a modifier be able to put one in, charge you $500 for the mod, and achieve better sound? [Of course, the problem is, is it better or just different? There are tradeoffs, remember.]
2. In fact my Classe Omega SACD player was in actuality a $12000 reworking of the $5000 SONY SCD-1, and was noticeably superior in every respect. Was that a modification, even though done by a major manufacturer? Depends how you define modification. I heard some mods of the SCD-1 and they were pretty good, but did they come close to the Classe? Not hardly. But the starting point of all of them was an absolutely superb transport mechanism.
3. Would I buy a real modded unit? Maybe, but it would have to be a modification of a stock unit I would have considered buying anyway, and for me that means the build quality would have to be very good. I have heard people rave about the sound of components which were lightweight and flimsy and supposedly sounded good despite their construction, but I've just never heard one I liked--something was always compromised about the sound as far as I was concerned.
4. Hello, where on earth did you ever get the idea that I own anything I wouldn't consider replacing? Certainly not from me. When this thread started back in the 19th century I had just replaced my Classe with an X-01, mainly because I had just received DSD-capable versions of the dCS units, and had listened to the Meitner gear on someone else's system, and wanted something that could do in SACD what dCS and EMM had accomplished without having to put up with what I didn't like about their respective transports. So three of my four digital components are new this year, and the fourth is eighteen months old. Of course, there are limits. Some time next year the three-box Esoteric digital system is going to role in, for about $40,000, and of course I'll want it. But no, I'll have to do without; for now I'm through. Life is full of hardships, I'm afraid.
5. What do I like best about what I've got? That it sounds more like what I hear in the hall, at least in kind, than anything I've heard (which I can afford, if I suck it in hard enough) so far.
6. Me a guru? No one is a guru who doesn't understand how things work, and for all I know there is concrete and spaghetti in them thar boxes. I know what I like, and I don't confuse that with anything else.
All from me, I think. This thread has been fun, but it's getting old. |
The Quest for the Best Continues!
You all will be happy to know that my local Esoteric dealer has informed me he SHOULD HAVE the UX1 in house by tomorrow evening. This is a demo unit that has already made the review rounds to several well known av mag's. As such, the unit will be well broken in. My dealer has decided to buy it as his floor demo.
Of course, yours truly will be there Saturday morning for a listen. Unlike 711, I like hearing a player in a multitiude of systems (or at least another one besides my own) so I can make sure the sonic characteristics I'm hearing are not biased or system dependent. However, I definitely agree with 711 that when it comes time to making a purchase I would never buy before auditioning in my own system.
I have spoken to Jactoy (he being the lucky owner of the glorious Wright modded Sony) and he has agreed to join me if time permits. Don't know if we will be able to directly AB his unit against the UX1 on Saturday, but if not we will do it on Wednesday when he and I both have plenty of free time to do so.
There are couple of other people in the Chicago area who are following this thread but are not really actively participating. (Mr. Northbrook, Mr. Elgin where are you)? Don't be shy...please do join us for a spot of Earl Grey tea, scones and a fantastic listening sesssion!
Be on the look-out for my shoot-out sometime next week!
AVGURU |
Jayctoy, I will give you my impressions of your Modwright Sony DVD9000ES. The sounstage was huge, wide, deep, almost holgraphic. The background had a white noise, not blackness. The midrange was accentuated, bloomy, almost as if there was an eq being used. The seperation of the instrumentation was exagerated, and the bass was a bit boomy, not as tight, as real. The voices were almost hauntingly echoed, and very beautiful. This to me is some of the finest DIGITAL I have ever experienced. Accurate?
No way in hell. Great sounding, Absolutely. When I was sitting in my listening position I was amazed at the musical presentation being presented. IMHO I could not live with this type of machine for exclisive 2 channel listening. I was getting fatigued, and confused. This was more romantic, lush, bloomy, exagerated reality. Fun, yes. Sometimes for 2-channel, definately. For me, I am really now trying to make up my mind between the Exemplar, and the Modwright. This would be for HT. The more I think about the experience of your Modwright in my home, with my speakers, the more I think about the potential of using my 5 cornwalls, and my B4-plus/Crown K2 with a soundstage this big, this romantic.
Wow, this may be just the Perfect unit for HT, I can just Imagine the VOICE in the Matrx thru this type of player. OMFG, It would almost be a religios experience. I agree with you, when you said, at my house that the system sounded so good, you could just lay down and go to heaven here. But, to me, this is not accurate. This is romantic. I feel to be accurate, I need a black Background, Voices that sound like live voices, instruments that are not exagerated, but played as it is recorded.
I really believe you that in a church setting, with the acoustics you get in church, like a choir singing. Yes, this is what I heard too. On my upstairs sony receiver, I have a eq function called hall that is similar, certainly not as seductive as the modwright, but I think you get my meaning. I believe the newer Modwrights have a bit blacker backgrounds than yours, and are MUSICAL as all get out. I am really wanting to talk to Dan about the 3910 he is working on right now. He posted, it should be done in a couple of weeks.
I have more decisions to make now. Which unit to buy for my SS/HT rack...the fun continues.
Jayctoy, this is my EXPERIENCE and MHO of your unit in my home, with my ears. I love it, I love the sound, but, it is too much for my 2 channel pleasure. The newer mods I look forward to buying, trying, and who knows.
I had intended to pull the trigger today on the Exemplar for my HT, But, IMHO it is so close to the APL, I do not know if I would enjoy it as much for HT/5 channel.
The saga continues |
MGottlieb,
Jactoy's last point is quite interesting and one I never thought to ask you myself. As the one person on this thread who has the best digital equipment on the market today...X01 as a transport and for SACD's, Meitner's top of the line DAC, DV 50 for DVD-A only and a serious turntable rig, obviously you have invested a lot of money and time choosing your equipment.
What are your thoughts on our findings that the modded players are not only competitive but in some cases can even exceed the performance of your gear? Have you listened to any of these modded players (or others) that we've demoed? Are you of the belief that they can in fact outperform your gear? Or is buying one of these units as a replacement for your digital separates not a viable option? If not, please explain why?
What aspects of your digital set-up (what sonic characteristics) are you so enamored with that you couldn't possibly think of replacng it with the modded units?
Sorry, MGottlieb but you know I have to ask you the tough questions. You basically have a set-up that offers the best of the digital world. You are the resident digital guru!
AVGURU |
Mgottlieb,I would admit, Iam not expert like you, I dont
go to Carnegie Hall, I do go to Ravinia Festival to hear
Live Music.If you are asking me, If Iam in the recording
studio and tell you every instrument that were used, The
answer is no,but I know how to read the label, what were
the instrument used on the CD.My church they do live
recording,I am present when they did that, we use the same
instrument,and this is my reference CD, to find out if the
GEAR or cdp is adding something.When the system is sweetening things up, ITS not good,because its not natural,
they are cables that does that. I am totally aware about
that,Lastly, Do you have any problem that Mod cdp can
compete with high price gear like your Esoteric? |
Aldavis, just when I thought the duststorm was starting to settle, you bring news of upcoming new Esoteric products. What else is known about UX-3 and X-03? Will redbook/SACD performance be less, comparable, or better than UX-1 and X-01? Perhaps these should be the machines for our brave modifiers to consider reworking. Guido |
AVGURU- As much as I think of myself as uncompromising (my friends and family too), I now realize you and folks like 711smilin are more so. In a strange way it is comforting for me to know this.
Before I bought the DV-50S, I was looking for the perfect one box solution for audio AND video within my budget. I found great video for relatively cheap in the Integra DPS 10.5, but the audio...a real let down.
It was then that I realized that audio has much more of a priority to me than video. Even when enjoying a movie, the audio from the DV-50S, the Meridian G98, and the Lexicon RT-10 was hugely more involving than the Integra DPS 10.5 or the Denon 3910 (in stock form).
Now when it comes to all the different formats, I am still trying multi-channel material, but 2-channel always seems to be the bread-and-butter of my listening. Even DVD-A and SACD in two channel.
Now my efforts have turned towards my room, and proper acoustic treatment.
So now, instead of sidetracking this thread anymore, I will sit back and continue to read about your exploits, and enjoy my own system with whatever peace of mind I can hold on to. It is certainly better reading than any rag I could pick up at B&N.
Thanks again guys. Keep up the good workÂ…and the fun.
Dave |
Here's a thought for the modders:Check out the upcoming esoteric ux3 and x03.They are 2 channel versions and have the latest vrds.Prices will be 6000-7000 U.S.(a cheaper entry point to the best available transport) |
Thank you 711. I am rooting for you guys!!! |
Wow, what a journey. Thanks for taking me along. I have experience with 5965 family of tubes. Also the 6H30. Sounds to me like you prefer the sound of the 6H30 transformer coupled in a super short signal path. Thats what I conclude, cause tis what you are hearing. Nothing to hard to figure out. Keep signal paths ultra short. Direct couple a hi resolution triode to a tranny and wala.. magic. |
Avguru,
The Audionote site is: audionote.co.uk
The top-of-the-line stuff is crazy expensive, even more than the Goldmund stuff. But, the level 4 stuff is in the ballpark you folks have been exploring. My Naim CDS3 is, at @ $15,000 retail, a bargain by comparison. |
Guido, I will get the X-01 or the UX-01 as time permits, in the near future. it really is too bad, casue i had paid for the unit, and AVGURU could not make it Tuesday for the get together. |
Guys, I have been sitting on the sidelines for a few days, before deciding to make any further comments. I want to digest what I have been experiencing, and to define my goal in this endeavor.
1st Goal=Accurate Digital music reproduction, as close to vinyl as possible.
Reason=I have no room, or desire, too embark on the vinyl journey. My listening space, right now has 1 rack SS for HT
1 rack Tube for 2 channel. The main speakers are being shared. I swap out interconnects.
This journey has brought me ownership, and the listening pleasure of many machines. In the past, I have made the mistake of hearing a product in a showroom, falling in love with the sound, bringing it home, and not being able to duplicate what I heard, and loved, in my own home.
I am trying ONLY to judge machines, in my home, with my system, with my ears.
I have owned these machines this year.
Denon 2900
Xindak SACD2
Eastern electric Minimax
Shanling T200C
Sony XA777ES
Exemplar 2900
APL SACD 1000
Musical Fidelity Tri-Vista
Audio Aero Capitole II
Esoteric DV-50
Exemplar 3910
APL 3910
From the best of my recollection, I have heard in my home this year.
Sony 333ES
Tjoeb w/mods
Sony 555ES
Modwright Sony DVD9000ES
There are many, many more I have auditioned in audio salons around Chicago, including the Meitner DCC2(I think with the new transport), the DCS/Elgar stack, and more.
I am trying to formulate a way in my mind to express my opinions on the machines I have heard on MY system, without suggestion that one "blows" another away. I am realizing that, in the pursuit of excellence, and when I get to a certain level of detail in an excallent machine, there are the smallest of details that make the difference. This is the reason I HAVE to listen in my system. I realize my system is evolving during, and after these auditions too. IE pre-amps, Interconnects, Power-cords, mods to my speakers, new dedicated power, conditioning, ect. All these changes have cause/effect.
Bearing this in mind, I will try to be as honest as possible, and relate what I am hearing/or heard in the past.
I definately know what I like best TODAY, plus I realize that 1 machine cannot be enough for me. I need 1 machine for 2 channel, and 1 machine for HT/Multi-channel. I like diffent flavors for each. Thus I have a big problem in determining what is best for me. Writing this is helping me think this thru, more clearly. I am taking the approach of money, not being an issue up to $20k. Any more, and I am out. This budget leaves much room. I also do not like to throw money out. I like bang for my buck, thus have fallen head over heals for audiogon, cause it provides a forum for us AUDIO crazed middle aged guys and our obsessions(yes, younger, older, women, are all included here). I have been able to sample so many fine amps, pre-amps, tubes, interconnects, digital sources, buy them, evaluate them in my home, sell them here, and still have relatively the same money to do it again.
Thank you AUDIOGON, sincerly from my heart, and WALLET.
I will answer questions on individual machines i have owned on a per question basis. I would like to tell you where my journey has ende.
JUST FOR TODAY.
For my 2 channel pleasure
I own the APL 3910
I own this machine because it gives the BEST analogue reproduction I have ever heard. It has a built in digital remote control(for my lazy ass)and sounds better without a pre-amp than with one. The redbook on ths machine is phenominal, the best I have ever heard. The 6h30 supertube give the playback a 3d sounstage that draws me into the music, without making me wnat to analyze the instruments, or vocals. I can close my eyes, pick out instruments, visualize in my minds eye where each performer is on the stage. Instrument sounds REAL, piano is piano, drums are drums, cymbals sound like symbals. The dynamics are incredible, the sounstage is layered, the sound is just REAL. I do not experience or feel any digititis. The trble is airy, the decay is natural, when playing one of my college favorites, Chuck Mangione, The Children of Sanchez, the part when the drums start, I have NEVER heard the bass drums sound so real, tight, natural, strong. I was literally brought to tears on this recording. I had to play it over and over, I am still amazed how my system sounds. This is with redbook, If this player did nothing else, I would own it. Here is the kicker. This machine plays ALL formats, and wonderfully, accurately, DVD-A, SACD, HCDC, DVD, Video, 2-channel, multi channel.
Just for today, I love this machine.
Why do I like it better that the Exemplar?
I want to start out by saying that the Exemplar 2900, made me a believer in modified digital. I had the 2900 on my HT rack for a yearand for video, and multi channel it was very good.(my 5.1 has 5 of the same speakers, my subwoofer is the SVS B4-Plus, Crown K2)But, 2-channel made my ears bleed. The Denon Sucked, sucked sucked, compared to my 2 channel. I had bought modded APL SACD 1000 from Tvad, here on audiogon and was thrilled with the SACD playback, and happy with the redbook. I was spending at least 5 hours every day various audio forums, and review sites. I read so many threads, ect my eyes started going blury. I am into horns, and was reading about the Exemplar Horns. I googled Exemplar, and came accross a thread right here on Audiogon, I believe by Tbg, about the Exemplar 2900, and John Tucker, (A wonderful nice man, and a damn rocket scientist to boot). I was so intrigued I emailed John, about the machine, and tried negotiating to order one. He told me he could not discount the Machine, I asked if there was someone local where I could hear the machine. He put me in contact of his Chicago Rep, a great guy named Ric. i drove to his home, and we compared the Exemplar 2900(without siltech)with my APL 1000. SACD was much better on my APL, but, redbook was astonishingly great on the Exemplar. I was a bit dumbfounded cause after reading the stereotimes review of this player, I thought it would best anything out there. It had done that for all other rivals. My tail went between my legs, and Nice salesman that he is, ric offered to let me bring the 2900 to my home for trial. AAhh this would be the real test.
I bought it, and at a great price. I was so exited I started telling people all who would listen about this Denon Exemplar. I could finally get rid of my HT Denon 2900 and have the EXEMPLAR 2900. I shipped my 2900 to John, and impatiently waited, mine would have all of the upgrades, I wanted it to be the best. At about the same time Alex from APL, received his custom made double dac boards with remote volume control for the APL SACD 1000, so I emailed Alex, and shipped it out for the upgrades.
Yes, I am obsessive, no?
After waiting about 3 weeks I received my Exemplar, my hands were sweating, I was breathing heavy, I tore the box open, hooked it up, but no music, the transport was fried. Very disappointed I shipped the unit back to John. Being the great guy he is, he replaced the transport, and shipped it right back. All the while I was on ebay buying E180CC's, 12AV7's, 5965's, ect, just waiting to roll some tubes. I open it up, set it up it plays music, just not the way I remember. I was on audiogon at the time and asked about this, I believe it was Tbg that wrote 250 hours to get it right. I never in my life imagined this could be true. 10 days for the unit to burn in? Why, it did not compute.
Day 10.5 WOW this machine was amazing, all was right in the world. I started on my new mission to see if this was the best machine out there. I received my APL 1000 back with the volume control, I had already determined the Exception II pre-amp bested the Thor TA 1000 mk ii, so I hooked em both up and voila. The redbook on poorer recording was much better on the Exemplar, but, the SACD was better on the APL. On better recorded cd's they were equal. Now, I was happy, I pwned the IMHO at the time best redbook with the Exemplar, and the best SACD with the APL. I was pretty happy for a while. I could not play my Grateful dead remasters on HDCD.
My friend Bill, importer of Eastern Electric had brought over his CD player for me to use while both players were being modded, and when I put my Grateful Dead cd's in his player, they sounded like SACD, they were tranformed into real music. I had to have HDCD. Thanks Bill. More on this player later, this is getting long enough, I feel like I am releasing myself here from pent up audio/mind/block.
I found that the 3910 had newer betterdacs than the 2900,and played all formats. In my research, and in my belief I had to have the Exemplar 3910, but, while I was at it, I realized I had been comparing aplles to oranges in the APL vs Exemplar, they were different machines. As my DAD always said, 2 heads are better than 1, so, I asked both John, and Alex to med me their versions of the 3910.
My fingers are starting to get tired already, but, my soul is being cleansed.
Needless to say, The 2 3910's are some of the Best digital I have heard anywhere, especially in my home in the under 15k catagory. Yes, I know I said 20k was my limit, I just have not listened to any player that expensive, YET.
NOW, how did Imake my decision?
I finally broke he Exemplar fully in, yeah I know those painful 250 hours, and had about 150 hours on the APL. I used my Exemplar Exception II Preamp connected to my Wavelength Cardinal X'1's, connected to the 2 3910's. I used my trusty ratshack spl meter to set volume(The APL has digital volume control), and started to AB these beauties. I could not believe my ears, their was not audible difference. I have been buying a lot of music recently, and intentionally duplicated MFSL's, SACD's, DVD-A's, and HDCD's.
About a week went by, I was driving myself nutz, cause I could not hear a damn difference. They both were WONDERFUL, musical, accurate, all the accolades of great music. I read AVGURU challenging the DV-50 against other players. I knew mine would be better, I just did not realize I would learn about my 3910's at AVGURUS house.
On his system I realized I loved the sound of the APLa touch more than the Exemplar, and amazing as it was, it was because of the redbbok playback. The APL was always great with SACD ect, but it was now better in redbook.
I am getting real tired, and actually need to go back to work, yeah, I know, I still need to make $$$. Gotta support my hobbies, yaknow.
Okay, real fast, with more to come later
I got back to my place, put the exemplar into the system with pre-amp, played a disc-took the 2 pieces out, plugged the APL directly into the amps, and VOILA, a bit more extension, a bit more air, a better sounstage, i stopped analyzing the instruments and vocals, I was ENJOYING the music. I felt wonderful. The difference is this, my friends. I get absolutly no feeling and urge to analyze, I enjoy my music. I could get a little fatigued with the Exemplar, it reminded me of what I remember the Meitner being. Just a tad analytical. With the APL I get everything the Exemplar has to offer, but, with more musical involvement, I am drawn in, I am not trying to get in. |
Sinosin,
Good to see you join the thread again! Haven't heard from you for awhile. Having spoken to you by phone, knowing your set-up and respecting your audiophile knowledge, please do tell us your thoughts on what the X01 needs to take me to that "magical level" of the modded tube players? Are you thinking a tubed pre-amp?
If anyone reading this thread hasn't figured it out yet, combining the accuracy, coherency and detail of the X01 with the 3 dimensional and totally musical soundstage of the modded units would be an unbeatable combination. Although I'd have to steal from the the kids college funds it'd be worth it. I'd probably listen to music 18 hours a day!
Sinosin, please give us your thoughts!
AVGURU |
Larryi,
Thanks for the referral. I think I will look into the Audionote equipment as I've never heard it but have heard good things about it. Do you have a website address where I can start my journey and find a local dealer?
AVGURU |
DBLD,
Continue to enjoy your DV 50S! It is a truly great player. And now with the new and improved video dac the video is on par with the high end Arcams (which I still believe are the best dvd players on the market sans the Ayre DX-7). Additonally, if you go to the earlier part of this thread you will see a list of all the superb cdp's it beat in a head to head comparision.
Keep in mind that I've only auditioned the modded players in redbood and SACD, not DVD-A or DVD-Video. I'm sure they're also good in those formats but the DV-50 is morethan likely at least as good. I personally feel the video on the DV 50S is as good as a stock 3910 (which by the way has superb video) because the 50 has better power supplies.
Member MGottlieb will agree with me that the DV 50 is superb in DVD-A. And in multi-channel SACD the Esoteric may sound better than the modded denon's. Why? Because the tube output of the Denon's only applies to the front two channels, not the surrounds. You can get the other channels modded (improved op amps/rca's upgraded, etc) but they aren't connected to the tube outputs. Again, I can't say for sure because I haven't auditioned the Modded units in mulit-channel. But I'm sure the DV 50 is at least competitive in multi-channel.
But whatever you do please don't audition the Esoteric X01 because as good as your 50 is its not even close to the X01. Yes, the price is twice the DV 50 but the X01's performance is 3 times that of the DV 50. That (as unbelievable as it sounds) makes it a good value! And as a transport the UX1 is probably a keeper for the next 10 years.
Enjoy the music!
AVGURU
|
Fascinating review, AVGURU!
Yet it is my understanding that you are at this time comparing X-01 to ModWright from memory. In that the two units were not played in the same session. Are you still planning a real A/B shootout? |
This has been an interesting thread and I think has really helped sort out the different modded players and their individual sounds/characteristics. Keep up the good work Avguru. Sandra |
I hate to keep harping on these little points, but personal playback taste and accuracy are NOT synonymous. Jayctoy: you said "what you are hearing on the Sony Mod, is exactly whats in the CD, I am very familiar with this PLAYER." Maybe, but how do you know that it is accurately conveying what's on the CD? You like what it does; maybe your taste is superb; but that's all you know. Maybe the CD sucks, and this player sweetens it up a bit. Is that good? What about when it does it on a CD which doesn't suck? I once had a conversation with Wilma Cozart, who produced most of the great Mercuries, during intermission at Carnegie Hall, about various tape, LP and CD transfers of recordings she had made and then remastered, and she said that if every person who commented how close to the master tape some recording sounded on some playback device had ever actually had access to the master, it would have crumbled into dust years ago. |
AVGURU,
Now that you've got the tube bug, you must audition an Audionote DAC, particularly at the 4 and 5 level. These deliver the "magic" -- solid, palpable and realistic feel that is often missing from CD/SACD players that emphasize detail and "air."
I personally went a quite different route, favoring the more dynamic sound of the Naim CDS3, but I can easily see why others favor the Audionote sound. Both are worth looking into in your quest for the ultimate. |
Avguru, what you are hearing on the Sony Mod, is exactly
whats in the CD,I am very familiar with this player.
Its really exceptional player,the tube Dan used are
cryod,Tungsol 5687.Thanks for the review again.I will
get the unbilical upgrade today.According to Positive
Feedback its a must to have it for the Sony mod.
Will see? |
And not only me of course. There are so few machines out there that can drive me away from my analog rig . Albeit, it is worth only 10K, but in the end even my set-up is mostly superior to digital. And how many digital discs are properly encoded at high resolution that you can purchase today. As a consumer, you really have no idea how that DVD-A or SACD was processed. And maybe 30% of my cd's challenge the table. The moded machines have a rightful place in this game. For a "reasonable" amount of $$$ you outperform higher dollar units. I applaud you for your efforts. |
AVGURU, fanatstic job in reviewing. You really gave us what I believe is a accurate reflection as to what you heard. I trust your ears. Now, be gentle in your post on SA11. Remember it is only a $3,500 stock piece of Japaneese consumer electronics. Plays both cd and sacd. And by the way, when hooked to the Marantz pre-amp thru balanced the signal is in correct polarity. |
AVGURU, thanks for your review, it is absolutely infomative and refreshing to see a good thread like this one. Thumbs up for your effort and others of course. But I think you have gotten the tube bug. It did got me once when I have my BAT VK-51SE. It sounds like everything you just described. I also think system matching and system synergy is important. Based on what you said about the X01 I have a pretty good idea of what it needs to sound better. I can't wait to have an opportunity to audition some of those mod units. |
Fellow Audiophiles:
I am looking to wrap up my search for the ultimate, most musical cdp or universal in the next three weeks. As such, I left work early today and had a glorious four hour listening session with our beloved Esoteric X01. This was my second session with the X01 (the first one was 1 hour) and I just needed to verify in my mind what I thought I previously heard. I also took a second long listen to the Marantz SA 11 as I promised Reb 1208 I would. I'll report on that unit in a separate thread. First, a list of the music played:
Jacintha- Autumn Leaves
Norah Jones-Come go away with me (SACD)
Mighty Sam Mclain- Give it up to Love (JVC XRCD)
Ray Charles- Genius Loves Company- Concord Jazz SACD
Ana Caram- Blue Bossa- Chesky SACD
Diana Schuur- Music Is My Life-Atlantic HDCD
Marilyn Scott-NightCap- Prana Records
Isaac Hayes -Hot Buttered Soul-MFSL Gold Recording SACD
Art of the Ballad- Maple Shade Records
Madeline Peyroux- Careless Love-Rounder Records
Cassandra Wilson- Traveling Miles-Blue Note
Diana Krall- The Girl in the Other Room-Verve-SACD
The Equipment:
Speakers-Legacy Whispers
Pre-amp- Marantz 7SA ( $6,000)
Amps: 300 Watt Marantz 9SA ($7,500 each)
Esoteric X01
Black Diamond isolation Trey (not platform)
Top Gun Power Cord
Audioquest Sky and Harmonic Truth (switched back and forth)
No power conditioning
As you can see, the music selection was very extensive and varied. I have to give special mention to Ray Charles, Art of the Ballad, Marilyn Scott and Isaac Hayes and Jancintha. Rahy Charles SCAD is one of the most airiest, spacious and well recorded SACD's I've ever heard. Jacintha's voice is absolutely heavenly.
Marilyn Scott is a real stunner and is somewhat under the radar. I found it at Borders hidden behind bigger names. An unbelievable recording! Anybody whose heard a Maple Shade Recording knows they go for a very raw, live sound with well placed mikes and very little effects other than ambiance from the recording venue. This was also a stunner and sounded better than SACD..so real I could reach out and touch it.
But the best of all was (I'm still surprised) the Issac Hayes Hot buttered Soul. Only four songs on the whole album...Walk on By, By the Time I get to Phoenix, etc... This sounded just like I was at the studio when it was recorded. The most vinyl sounding SACD I have ever heard with unbelievable attack on Strings and horns and the guitar solo's burned right through the mix like I was there live! Definitely recommended. The worst of the above was Diana Krall. I love her music..and this album...but there is nothing special about the SACD version of this cd. It only sounds marginally better than the redbook version.
Now, the review:
The X01 in redbook is simply unbelievable! The soundstage is tight and extremely well focused. Unlike the DV 50 where the soundstage is a bit too forward, the bass is a little heavy handed and the dynamics are slightly over the top (See Reb 1208, we do agree on a few things!) they have reined in the X01 to compensate for those weaknesses. The sound is more laid back and noticeably less forward, the bass is even handed and doesn't over take the rest of the soundstage and the dynamics are not over done. The sound is so, so smooth and put together...nothing ever gets out of its place.
When there is a trio of horns playing in harmony at the same time you can easily pick out the timbre of each horn.
In other words, it plays as one piece but you can pick out which horn is which...unlike other cdp's I've heard where it sounds like one mass of horns jumbled together. Strings and synthethic strings well up from a backdrop of pure blackness and just swoosh into the soundstage, never overtaking the front images (unless recorded that way) but laying a foundation of warmth and texture that is just totally eveloping and absorbing.
The imaging is spot on and special mention goes to the spacing. Again, each instrument has room on the soundstage without crowding the other out. The soundstage is very wide. Also, if the recording venue has ambiance or reverb this player will pick it up beautifully. The Mapleshade recording was a good example of that.
Finally (And I want to make sure everybody gets this) the SACD playback of this unit is super, super phenomenal..the best I've ever heard. Air, huge soundstage, analog sounding on the better recorded SACD's, soundstage depth and even better timbre fecognition (you can hear the skin on the drums, on piano you can hear the hammer of the keys inside the piano..that's also true for some redbook cd's that had piano solo's). It just sounds so real!!
Now, for the weaknesses:
This unit does not sound analog so those looking for an analog sound need not apply. It sounds like a well aged, fine digital wine. Very smooth, very sophisticated but still digital. Sometimes cymbals and brushes have an extra sheen or sparkle...but what's amazing is that if you listen closely you can hear the separation of the strands on the brush as each one opens up and swipes across the symbol. Some players (and many audiophiles like this) tend to push this type of detail back further in the soundstage or mask the sound behind other instruments so it doesn't draw attention to itself. Not the X01. I'm not even sure if I would call it a "sheen" but moreso drawing out extra detail.
The bass is very tight but but still could be better defined. I've yet to hear any cd player do bass better than the Ayre CX-7. But unlike the DV 50 the slam is in proportion to the detail. The bass definitely goes deep.
One thing I should mention is that the X01 is not as airy or open as some might like. Because it brings out so much detail it tends to fill the soundstage more than other units. The old adage "less is more" definitely applies here. Other players that aren't as detailed "seem" to have a more open and airy presentation because quite simply they don't have the resolution of the X01. These players could also give one the impression that the background is blacker and the noise floor is quieter. You'd be surprised at how much is going on in a song even during a quiet interlude. The X01 does not add air to these type of passages. Some audiophiles may not like this. Where the X01 somewhat makes up for this is in its smoothness and a natural ambiance it exudes.
Finally, in my opinion the X01 is very musical..but in my listening session only sometimes made the speakers disappear (with eyes closed) and is still primarily one dimensional instead of producing two and threee dimensional images like the Exemplar, APL and Modwright Sony. Don't get me wrong, there is plenty of soundstage depth, width and and height but rarely that sense of being there with living, breathing images.
I'm convinced now after listening to the APL, Exemplar and Modwright Sony that these qualities are due to the tubes. The X01 and Meitner gear may be the best digital has to offer but it just can't give you the live feeling the way tubes can.
From my recent recollection and notes from hearing the modded cdp's here are my comparisions (I have yet to do a head to head between the modded units and the X01):
X01 vs Exemplar 3910
The X01 is more detailed, smoother and even handed (less subject to dynamic swings). Imaging is better and the soundstage is tighter.
The Exemplar puts more air around the instruments (therefore sounds more open, spacing is about equal and throws two and three dimensional images on a regular baasis. But the Exemplar sometimes give an unnatural timbre to instruments and instruments can sound thin at times (occassionally, not often). I'm talking piano's and guitars.
Verdict: I like the X01 but I could easily see where others could choose the Exemplar.
X01 vs. APL
Both units are equally detailed, vocals are more upfront and life-like on the APL, tonally richer than the X01, more air, spacing is about even, APL is more dynamic. X01 is smoother, more accurate, more inner-detail, APL bass is better and is overall more dimensional and more musical.
APL has that you are there quality.
Verdict: APL is the more musical player. I could however see someone choosing the X01 as its also very musical but in a different way, just not quite as satisfying as the APL.
X01 vs. Sony Modwright (or now Denon Modwright)
The Modwright player is flat out the most musically satisfying player I have ever heard. Tonally rich, harmonics out the ying-yang, spacing is incredible...each instrument has its space and the soundstage is never crowded. (This asset is in my opinion what really sets this player apart) bass is detailed yet tonally rich with slam, instrument timbre's seem to be very accurate (i.e piano sounds like piano), vocals ar real and life-like. Great imaging!
I sometimes wonder if the Modwright is adding harmonmic textures to music that are not really there in the recording studio because I've never heard anything so harmonically and tonally rich in my life. So full, never thin. Yet due to the timbral accuracy (tenor sax sounds like tenor, alto sounds like alto, easy to differentiate different pionos i.e Yamaha vs. Bosendofer, etc) I can't say the sound is not accurate.
Verdict: Betters the X01 in almost every cagtegory. Extremely musical. I wish I could afford both..but given only one I'd go with the Sony.
Just wanted to share this with everyone. If you read my first review (in this same thread) of the X01 nothing really changed. I now feel more comfortable with my knowledge and understanding of this unit.
When you include the price differences between the X01 and the modded units the mod's are very hard to pass up!
Next Up: I'm in search of Meitner gear to audition
AVGURU
|
I have been following this thread since mid November. I am a happy owner of a DV-50S (for now anyway), and have only one thing to say...You guys are BERSERK! I am lovin it!
OK, you are past the DV-50, but many of us are living vicariously through these "tests."
I am also glad that the bashing has been kept reeled in.
Thanks,
Dave |
Reb1208, please note the "all solid state"...:-)
No, Meitner it not better than the best analog setups...but...$20K vinyl setup recorded on 96/24 DVD-A sounds the same trough my 3910 compared to the original...:-)...same system, same cables, same speakers. Who knows, if we can record the same vinyl trough the same $20K setup to SACD, then the results with Meitner can be the same. We won't know that till Meitner supports DVD-A though..:-)
Regards,
Alex |
Mgottlieb, I hope you are right...:-) It would probably be best to work with the UX-1 because it is universal player and has exactly the same transport as X-01.
Will see...:-)
Regards,
Alex |
Aplhifi: "It will turn out very expensive"? Read this thread--you did notice that we are not sane people you're talking to, didn't you? Build it and they will come, as someone said in "Close Encounters of the Third Kind". |
"There is nothing out there in its stock for that outperform(s) it."
Does this include a stock analog system ? |
OK, I couldn't take it any longer! It turns out that the Sony 999 with the Modwright Platinum mod is not that much more than the Underwood Maverick I was close to buying. I spoke with Dan this afternoon, a very nice guy, and ordered my modded Sony. I hope to join some of you in Audio Nervana in a couple of weeks.
Peter |
Mgottlieb, I would have to agree with you! This is the reason why I can not wait to put my hands on and re-designin X-01 similar to what I do with the Denon machines. Of course, it will turn out very expensive, but having the best transport in the World available (the new VRDS), might bring truly amazing results.
Let's hope I'll be able to do it some day..:-)
Regards,
Alex |
I really have to take issue with Aplhifi's statement that "the actual transport is not that important. Meitner used (and still uses in their new $7K transport) a flimsy $100 or less Philips digital transport...." Right, and it sounds it. When I heard the EMM separates, with the new transport--in someone else's unfamiliar but excellent system--I was astonished at the range, depth and width of the soundfront and the image clarity. I would have bought the DAC in a flash if it could have been used to its full potential with another transport. At the same time, I was very troubled by the thinness, aggressiveness and lack of impact of what I heard. The same is true of the dCS separates; in DSD the Purcell and Elgar Plus are extraordinary, but they are compromised by the Verdi, which is not a great transport, in very much the same way the EMM system appeared to be. Put an X-01, which has an absolutely superb transport section, or something comparable in to feed the dCS units, and you hear what they are capable of (in redbook anyway), and I bet the same would be true of the EMM DAC. I said it above, and I say it again; making the greatest DAC in the world does not guarantee you can make a good transport, and probably the opposite is true as well. People used to sell turntables (some of you may remember them) short also, with the same result. You want an interesting test: hook the X-01 and whatever you fancy up to a good external DAC with the same cable type, and compare them. |
Reb1208, have you heard SACD playback with Meitner digital products? There is nothing out there in its stock form to outperform it. May be there are just a couple to have "better" CD playback, but the difference is so subtle that it fails in personal taste cathegory. As I mentioned, the transport Meitner uses is really cheap and flimsy compared to Teac's VRDS or the Sony Pro transport used in the Reimyo. What that proves?
Regards,
Alex |
Now it is being suggested that "the actual transport is not that important". Oh my.............?????? |
See if can find the Reimyo player too as many consider it to be the best CDP around. |
Already suggested. But, where can the Chicago-based shootout gang find the EMM devices in the greater Chicago area? |
Agreed, there is no better "all solid state" than Meitner out there. I've heard it in my own system. It was the new DAC6e and highly modded (by me) SACD1000 transport. It sounded phenomenal (for what it is)!
This also proves the fact that, with today's very advanced DSP technologies and re-clocking techniques, the actual transport is not that important. Meitner used (and still uses in their new $7K transport) a flimsy $100 (or less) Philips digital transport which is not even close compared to VRDS and Sony Pro transports. The paradox is that Meitner gear beats them all...:-)
Regards,
Alex |
Try Meitner gear transport CSDC plus DAC6 (mutilchannel) or DCC2 (2 channel DAC + pre-amp). Though u have specified one box solutions the combined cost is not out of whack compared to some of the pricer one box players like Burmester, mbl etc..even cheaper. The DCC2 also has by pass mode if you wish ( I use the preamp, very neutral). This set up play SACD and will also convert PCM (CD) to DSD but no DVD-A Incredible transparency, extended highs, decays that linger in your mind, excellent transients, clear mid range, image depth excellent. I have compared it to the DV-50, no contest. But admit no experience in the Sony Mod versions (pre-mod Sony definetely inferior) or the X01. |
Due to a hectic work schedule and family committments I couldn't keep up my end of the deal to pick up the X01 on behalf of 711 Smillin. Sorry guys as 711 went though all the time and trouble to purchase the unit. We were to have a long and glorious shoot-out this evening between the APL, Exemplar and X01. Would have been better than 4th of July fireworks!
Tonight was the best night for all involved since 711 has a host of business committments that will keep him busy all of next week. Same with me.
We will have to reschedule this grand event for another day...but please be assured it will happen! The quest for the best and most musical digital cdp must (and will) go on!
AVGURU |
Bearman3,
Thanks for your response. My listening session with the 3910 was similar to yours with the 2900...only the sonic differences were of a greater magnitude. I really just wanted to compare notes and make sure what I am hearing is what others (outside of us crazy Chicago guys) are also hearing.
AVGURU |
711smilin
Well said and keep smilin. |
Guru I haven't heard the 3910 yet so I really can't make an informed comment.
On the 2900 the areas I heard "better" than the "50 were in the soundstage and throughout the midrange, where the 2900 was more lifelike, especially in it's presentation of vocals and flute. (I hear a lot of both live at home from a professional musician)If there is a weakness it's in the detail area. I'm still not convinced that detail isn't overdone as an area where real music lies though. I'll take correct pace and tonality any day.
My listening room at home is where I A/B'd them and it was a borrowed "50 I used. The room is quite neutral and well set up as a dedicated listening room. I have a small computer desk in one back corner but it's shut down during listening sessions and each wall plug is a dedicated 20 amp line. (4 of them). |
jmic, I see you are a pessimistic soul, who is having no fun in his own life, trying to vicariously live thru other peoples enjoyment. This is a FUN journey to find what IMHO is the best for me, certainly not you. I have realized that unless I can hear equipment in my home, with my system, with my ears, I cannot pass personnal judgement. There are people like you, in this world who attempt to take the joy out of anothers journey. I will NOT let them happen. I will say that IMHO my hearing AND brain, work very well. There are also a lot of people who RESPECT my opinion, and are happy to have the opportunity to learn from/with others. I, in fact respect your opinion, but, I do not respect your written words. They are hurtful, AND distasteful. I have in fact, had you read the full thread, apologized for any rash statements I have put into print. I have also held myself back from formulating further written opinions until my journey is complete.
I will continue with my journey, until it stops being fun and enjoyable.
Best Wishes
Steve |
Jayctoy,
Thank you for providing some information about the music listened to and some of the things you observed. This does a better job of putting things into perspective since so many CDs are recorded differently. I now have some point of reference.
711,
Thank you for the phone call to explain your thoughts with the music as well.
Things are becoming clearer now.
Dre |
711, AVGURU, you and the rest of the Chicago gang are on a brave voyage of discovery. If you seek the ultimate, you may also want to try sourcing a Teac Esoteric G0 external clock generator to connect to the X-01. When I visited Andy Singer shop in N.Y. during the summer, the consultant indicated to me that the corresponding device for the DCS stack -- called Verona -- improves the sound of that brand's gear tremendously. |
JMIC76, I do urge you to avoid meaningless appellatives on this thread. The gang is very busy having a load of fun, and while your relativistic views are laudable, their delivery may be found to be somewhat grating. |
I have heard that Dan's best mod is his Denon 5900 mod. If you can hold out another 6 months till the 5910 comes out that mod should be a killer. |
