audiopoint 24 posts 07-28-2016 6:00pm Hello Geoff, Agreed that damping a chassis will have an effect on the sonic outcome however it will also change the sonic of the component and in most cases change the original musical character of the product from what the designer or name brand is presenting.
Please don’t put words in my mouth. What I am saying is that damping a chassis or electronic element or whatever - when it is done correctly and without over-damping - improves the sound. I didn't say it would be easy, what is, right? I wish to hear better sound that what the original product sounds like, yes that’s true, now that you mention it. The whole idea is to try to obtain a better signal quality than you had before, no? Note to self: This is the same argument that Michael Green and I used to have all the time. Let the vibrations flow free. Just like old times. ;-)
geoff kait machina dynamics we do artificial atoms right
Where does the vibrational energy from the speaker itself go?
In my system it stays in the speakers. At least for the bass range. Before the podiums (Magico spikes to floor) i felt the bass through my floor (wood on concrete) after the podiums i do not feel anything through the floor only through the air. You kind of miss the floor based boom at first but its really a fake effect, good for sound effects but not something i experience at live acoustic concerts
others with more knowldge of springs (Geoff?) may comment on whether the setup transmits higher frequencies, it may
recognize all of this is with a very inert cabinet design, and no ports on my Magico Q3s.
Ps agear. Nice room, mine is a similar size and likewise complex design albeit a more traditional Art Noxon design for sound isolation and bass response, despite the small size it works well and behaves as yours seems to really disappearing into the recorded acoustic
"others with more knowldge of springs (Geoff?) may comment on whether the setup transmits higher frequencies, it may."
The springs are simply part of the mass/spring iso system. Analogous to seismic vibration isolation, isolating the system from the vibrational energy of the speakers (cabinets) is accomplished by absorbing the energy via the mass/spring system, where it’s converted to work and heat. The mass/spring system would thus have to move somewhat during the whole isolation process.
theaudiotweak 1,355 posts 07-30-2016 11:32am Hence creating motion artifacts and larger amounts of interfering energy within the component that is placed in "isolation" Tom
No, Tom. The motion is imperceptible and only at one frequency, you know, the resonant frequency of the iso system. So no harm/no foul. Plus there are not larger amounts of interfering energy within the component that is placed in isolation. There’s LESS interfering energy. That’s kind of the whole point. Hel-looo!
Have you given any consideration to consulting your new seismologist on this subject?
“Plus there are not larger amounts of interfering energy within the component that is placed in isolation. There’s LESS interfering energy. That’s kind of the whole point. Hel-looo!”
Me Kate, here is your chance to help us learn more about isolation by answering three questions of ours. Please do not post the straw man arguments avoidance reply again, just answer the questions to the best of your knowledge.
1. Prove to us via formulas or we will accept any qualified outsider opinions there are “not” “larger amounts of interfering energy within any component that is placed in isolation and there is LESS” - per our Example.
Example: We do know when turning up the volume on an amplifier and witness those large transformers generating more energy, eating more AC current and generating more vibration changing into greater mechanical and electromechanical resonance at all variable frequencies per Coulomb's Law - so again why is there LESS interfering energy within your isolation model?
Strange but you never refer to de’ Coulomb in any of your writings and since the law named for his formula is absolutely relevant to vibration and component operational efficiency we always thought you would bring it into play as some point or are you willing to eat your own words once directed at us - “One imagines you look the other way and hope it disappears.”
http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-coulomb-friction.htm
Employing isolation techniques, one merely protects one component from interfering with another that it is in direct contact with. Isolation increases the effects of Coulomb friction by building resistance between the mating surfaces. With regards to airborne resonance, isolation principles serve much like the dielectric material in a capacitance device, essentially turning the component into a giant Resonance Capacitor. This is not the opinion of our company, Star Sound Technologies, LLC but rather that of the average graduate - level physics textbook.
2. Does isolation and heat conversion processes attenuate when that amplifier volume is turned up and where does all that increased resonance formed from greater vibration go?
One thing we do know functions within the Live-Vibe Technology™ model; when a high speed mechanical grounding conduit is applied to transfer resonance to ground, when more energy is generated there is never an overload from buildup within the component hence establishing a higher level of component operational efficiency. You can research everything written “anywhere” about Sistrum Platforms and one shining star common among listener’s and reviewer’s findings is one can immediately and substantially increase volume levels of their system, hearing even more of the recording and with an effortlessness feel that never existed before.
3 Does isolation provide this listening benefit of effortless gains in volume because we have not found or read much on isolation models with that result taking place with any consistency.
Admittedly the isolation models we studied and built produced some success through function but we also determined and in our opinions that heat conversion processes are a much slower go in comparison to rapid energy transfer especially when keeping up with musical reproduction and musical instruments which are quite fast and responsive as you know.
Wow, as I’m finishing up with this post, I just read your latest one liner with regards to one of our members! Believe me Mr Kate, you do not want to compare your career to hers nor do you want to go head to head in a science debate as that would just be wasting the lady's time.
You obviously already know everything known to mankind or at least your ego believes you do. Gee, I thought your career would be higher up the ladder by now, proving that selling a bag of rocks will only take you so far. (just my personal opinion of course).
Robert Maicks
Star Sound
PS - Regards to you and Mike Green arguing? Must have
consistently
sounded like when brother Moe
repeatedly
hits Curly on the noggin!
"Wow, as I’m finishing up with this post, I just read your latest one liner with regards to one of our members! Believe me Mr Kate, you do not want to compare your career to hers nor do you want to go head to head in a science debate as that would just be wasting the lady’s time."
I am definitely wasting MY time debating you. Since you don’t know what my career is you’re just pissing up a rope. Bring the seismologist on. Let’s rock! ;-). One of our members? You take a lot for granite! ;-)
Then Audiopoint wrote,
"You obviously already know everything known to mankind or at least your ego believes you do. Gee, I thought your career would be higher up the ladder by now, proving that selling a bag of rocks will only take you so far. (just my personal opinion of course)."
Maybe be you should just stick to insults and sophomore jokes as that appears to be your strong suit. Leave the science to someone else.
In my system it stays in the speakers. At least for the bass range. Before the podiums (Magico spikes to floor) i felt the bass through my floor (wood on concrete) after the podiums i do not feel anything through the floor only through the air. You kind of miss the floor based boom at first but its really a fake effect, good for sound effects but not something i experience at live acoustic concerts
others with more knowldge of springs (Geoff?) may comment on whether the setup transmits higher frequencies, it may
recognize all of this is with a very inert cabinet design, and no ports on my Magico Q3s.
Ps agear. Nice room, mine is a similar size and likewise complex design albeit a more traditional Art Noxon design for sound isolation and bass response, despite the small size it works well and behaves as yours seems to really disappearing into the recorded acoustic
I guess the question is what makes the speaker more efficient in propagating energy as sound. It would be interesting to take dB measurements to see if you achieve the same room filling sound as lower settings on your VC. That is what I have discovered with my SS racks (and room). I have gotten profound results even with cheesy, Craigslist grade speakers. One speakers designer I had over claimed that a $75 Pioneers on Starsound apprentice stands sounded better than many 10k audiophile speakers he had heard.
Magicos cabinets are engineered better than most and could well highlight the Townsend gear better. It would be interesting to see its effects on the typical painted Chinese MDF.
The room was a lot of fun to create but the formal reveal is still pending. Clement Perry from Stereotimes is coming to review it once my system fiddling is complete.
You put a lot of energy and $ into your beautiful room and that was very smart. My younger brother lives in Portland. If I visit in the near future, I will have to swing by for a listen.
ricred1, I would try Starsound Apprentice XL stands under your speakers. That is the place to start. Their technology has the most obvious impact on things that vibrate the most (rooms, subs, speakers.....)
Thanks to everyone for their comments. I've decided not to purchase anything. After what I've already spent, it may not be logical, but I can't spend 3-5K(or more) on equipment/speaker stands. I'm done!
+1 for the Townshend. I put the isolation bars under my Analysys Audio Epsilon. I never could have think the tremendous effect this has done to my system. I understand it can be seen as a paradox but the difference really is not subtle. isolation bars give the same sound quality as the podium for a lot less money but are a bit more difficult to settle in correctly. Once it is done. The effort is worth do be done. The difference between native feet and Townshend bars reminds me when I installed my tubed amps on SRA Ohio Class xl2 for a lot less money. in US it seems the Cable Co is selling them. best
Maybe be you should just stick to insults and sophomore jokes as that appears to be your strong suit. Leave the science to someone else.
Mr. Kait,
In closing, we have been eating your insulting ways for far too long on this forum and just wanted to see how you would react to a taste of your own medicine, so now we know… Pick on our products, nit- pick our technology as best you can but kindly leave our good people alone.
You are correct. I am a sound engineer by trade and not a scientist. Getting paid for what my talents are, using my gifts of hearing and delivering good sound definitely beats spending my time arguing earthquakes and the like.
The important thing is not to argue as there is no right or wrong, just good and better methods. We are on to something excitingly new for all of audio and music so we participate here only to assist in education. We will do our best to stay on topic but...even sophomores like me reply to everyone's questions when asked.
audiopoint 26 posts 08-01-2016 1:25pm Geoffkait: "Maybe be you should just stick to insults and sophomore jokes as that appears to be your strong suit. Leave the science to someone else."
Mr. Kait,
In closing, we have been eating your insulting ways for far too long on this forum and just wanted to see how you would react to a taste of your own medicine, so now we know… Pick on our products, nit- pick our technology as best you can but kindly leave our good people alone.
You are correct. I am a sound engineer by trade and not a scientist. Getting paid for what my talents are, using my gifts of hearing and delivering good sound definitely beats spending my time arguing earthquakes and the like.
The important thing is not to argue as there is no right or wrong, just good and better methods. We are on to something excitingly new for all of audio and music so we participate here only to assist in education. We will do our best to stay on topic but...even sophomores like me reply to everyone's questions when asked.
Sincerely,
Robert Maicks
Star Sound
Actually, to be fair, I was not picking on your products. I was picking on your science. See the difference?
Have a nice day,
Geoff Kait machina dynamica Give me a strong enough spring and I'll isolate the world
Actually, to be fair, I was not picking on your products. I was picking on your science. See the difference?
Have a nice day,
Geoff Kait machina dynamica Give me a strong enough spring and I’ll isolate the world
A master of irony we are.....;
What do you do for a living or are you a full time audio tweak guru? I cannot imagine that is more fertile ground for an aerospace engineer than NASA.....
While we're on the subject of Stillpoints, I don't want to sound dumb but in the case of Mapleshade brass footers, how in the world does one go about balancing an 83# amplifier on these? I get that once they are in place they are stable but getting them in place would seem to take at least two people. Can anyone explain their experience?
agear 1,097 posts 08-02-2016 4:03pm Geoffkait: "Actually, to be fair, I was not picking on your products. I was picking on your science. See the difference?
Have a nice day,
Geoff Kait machina dynamica Give me a strong enough spring and I’ll isolate the world
to which agear commented,
"A master of irony we are.....;"
what’s ironic about it?
Then agear inquired,
"What do you do for a living or are you a full time audio tweak guru? I cannot imagine that is more fertile ground for an aerospace engineer than NASA...."
NASA? Shirley you’re joking. Makes the shackles on the back of neck stand up.
Kait - Actually, to be fair, I was not picking on your products. I was picking on your science. See the difference?
Mr. Kait,
You absolutely lost me with your last comment referencing picking on Star Sound’s technology. Why would anyone lacking a formal background in music or sound reproduction pick on anything proven to be musically successful, widely accepted by highly educated electrical and mechanical engineers and add to that possesses the graciousness of public support?
Is your presence in audio just to aggravate people or are you out to prove you are "the best of the best of the best” relying on your aerospace background?
I have read about people, who get kicks from argumentative lifestyles and have to ask, are you one of those personalities?
Unfortunately my vacation is over and I must get back to more important company matters. We are still awaiting your answers to our previous technical questions with regards to vibration and science (your specialty) so please let us know if you intend to answer them so I may set time aside for review and if not…
If suspended plywood floors isolating speakers is the first step then see what you have. Something inexpensive like Auralex subdude platforms under speakers can work wonders (does for me).
audiopoint 27 posts 08-02-2016 6:29pm "You absolutely lost me with your last comment referencing picking on Star Sound’s technology. Why would anyone lacking a formal background in music or sound reproduction pick on anything proven to be musically successful, widely accepted by highly educated electrical and mechanical engineers and add to that possesses the graciousness of public support?"
I never said your product was not musically successful. I only pointed out your product does not address seismic vibration apparently because you it to be inconsequential and or that mechanical diodes account for seismic vibration. Strawman arguments.
then Robert wrote,
"Is your presence in audio just to aggravate people or are you out to prove you are "the best of the best of the best” relying on your aerospace background?"
I like to challenge people on any number of audio and technical issues. I actually never claimed to be the best of the best. I actually don’t rely on my aerospace background. I didn’t even mention it. You did. Your statements are Strawman arguments.
then Robert wrote,
"I have read about people, who get kicks from argumentative lifestyles and have to ask, are you one of those personalities?"
I enjoy joy a good debate, that’s true. I like to keep personalities out of this and stick to the science.
finally, Robert wrote,
"Unfortunately my vacation is over and I must get back to more important company matters. We are still awaiting your answers to our previous technical questions with regards to vibration and science (your specialty) so please let us know if you intend to answer them so I may set time aside for review and if not…"
i think the answers to your questions you either answered yourself or have been answered by yours truly already in this thread.
Geoff Kait machina dynamica we do artificial atoms right
We appreciate your latest defense - the good guy bad guy thing, really?
Humorous…but we were hoping for much better.
You stated that you appreciate a good debate. Debates require two or more people so why is it when we direct questions regarding and/or challenging your understanding and approach to audible and inaudible interfering energy, all we ever get in return are idiotic replies such as “straw man arguments” yet no answers of any substance.
My personal opinion is you enjoy debates as long as all questions are fired from your shores hence the carney term “a winner every time”!
Not to be redundant and if anyone is still following this thread, our three questions directed to Mr. Kait are listed on this thread by audiopoint on 07-30-2016 8:53pm:
In closing, we are here to learn. You shoved earthquakes and inaudible frequencies up our rods and we agreed to review, measure your advice and sought out a highly educated seismologist to evaluate both sides of the coin. In turn we directed questions regarding your approach and how you deal with what we have determined to be of higher importance relative to managing resonance formed from vibration i/e Coulomb friction.
We take no pride in winning a debate when there is silence from the opposing side.
You shoved earthquakes and inaudible frequencies up our rods and we agreed to review, measure your advice and sought out a highly educated seismologist to evaluate both sides of the coin.
Robert -- Geoff and I both asked for a link to an independent third party data source on how your spikes, or any other similar device could act as a mechanical diode able to isolate against seismological effects, You have yet to provide this. As far as I can tell you have brought no facts to this "debate"
Geoff Kait machina dynamica Give me a strong enough spring and I’ll isolate the world
to which agear commented,
"A master of irony we are.....;"
what’s ironic about it?
Then agear inquired,
"What do you do for a living or are you a full time audio tweak guru? I cannot imagine that is more fertile ground for an aerospace engineer than NASA...."
NASA? Shirley you’re joking. Makes the shackles on the back of neck stand up.
Have a nice day
Geoff, you are not connecting the dots. Its ironic simply because because you yourself have been ridiculed on multiple forums for the absence of any science behind your products. I don’t agree with that stance necessarily, but it is what it is. Trolls be trolls.
The NASA reference is derived from your CV/bio on your website. I don't understand your response.
Robert -- Geoff and I both asked for a link to an independent third party data source on how your spikes, or any other similar device could act as a mechanical diode able to isolate against seismological effects, You have yet to provide this. As far as I can tell you have brought no facts to this "debate"
To be fair, no manufacturer has provided such data.
I personally am unconvinced that isolation from the boogey man of seismology has any real relevance.
Maybe another thread can be started. The OP is clearly not acting on any of this.
agear 1,099 posts 08-03-2016 3:35pm Geoff Kait machina dynamica Give me a strong enough spring and I’ll isolate the world
to which agear commented,
"A master of irony we are.....;"
what’s ironic about it?
Then agear inquired,
"What do you do for a living or are you a full time audio tweak guru? I cannot imagine that is more fertile ground for an aerospace engineer than NASA...."
NASA? Shirley you’re joking. Makes the shackles on the back of neck stand up.
Have a nice day
to which agear replied,
"Geoff, you are not connecting the dots. Its ironic simply because because you yourself have been ridiculed on multiple forums for the absence of any science behind your products. I don’t agree with that stance necessarily, but it is what it is. Trolls be trolls."
I don't understand what you mean. I have lots, and I do mean lots, of science behind my products. They are, in fact, ALL based on science. I was even gracious enough to provide the details of how the Teleportation Tweak works on my web site. Don't tell me you missed it! Ditto for the Super Intelligent Chip, vibration isolation stands, crystals, the Clever Little Clock. Follow?
agear then commented,
The NASA reference is derived from your CV/bio on your website. I don't understand your response."
I don't understand your question. If you have access to my CV/bio what's all the rumpus? I worked at NASA as Sr. mathematician but that was 45 years ago.
Finally agear asked,
"What do you do for a living?"
I like to think of myself as a song and dance man.
To be fair, no manufacturer has provided such data.
I personally am unconvinced that isolation from the boogey man of seismology has any real relevance.
Maybe but at least there is ample and readily accessible data on how springs can be used for seismic isolation, any modern construction in an earthquake zone stands in evidence of this. The Star Sound guys made a claim about their spikes and an appeal based on their "seismic expert" and I’d just like to see them back that up
Geoff always has a scientific theory or data point (even if some of them are odd) to back up every one of his claims
Your request was forwarded to the seismologist who provided us information on diodes related to shear waves and seismic waves. Our associate is doing us a time consuming favor here so please be a bit more patient.
Geoff and I both asked for a link to an independent third party data source on how your spikes, or any other similar device could act as a mechanical diode able to isolate against seismological effects, You have yet to provide this. As far as I can tell you have brought no facts to this "debate"
We never said spikes would isolate seismological effects. I believe the word used was “rejected” (the audiotweak on 07-25-2016 9:18pm). We stated there is far more energy moving down the Sistrum Platform™ towards earth than energy flowing up the conductive platform hence rejecting the majority of seismic energy rising above the gravity of earth’s ground per the angles of geometry located at the tip of the Audio Point™ and our understanding of shear waves.
Analogy: Turn on a fire hydrant with the water flow wide open and put your fist in the hole - it’s a tough go. The same is true with seismic waves moving up the platform.
Sistrum Platforms DO NOT ISOLATE. Isolation traps energy within the component. Without an exit, resonant energy propagates on all smooth surfaces hence establishing component operational "inefficiency" (per Coulomb's Law).
Within our model the seismic energy has to rise up from the earth moving against the greater flow of energy established by geometry and material science that is rapidly moving downward supported by the laws of motion and gravity. We do not care where interfering energy comes from. It will arrive via air-borne, floor-borne and structure-borne sources regardless of any type of attempts to isolate it.
Our platforms are made of conductive materials and vibrates, attracting energy from every known source. The key to function is "resonance transfer" to ground via high speed conductive pathways depending heavily on the forces of gravity. The seismic energy actually arriving upwards at the component level is so minute after battling motion, gravity and space, well in truth we never heard it so these mini earthquakes were never on our radar.
We have disclosed facts on this thread related specific to the mechanical sciences for which our products and technology are based which is resonance caused from vibration related to Coulomb’s Law. We can provide as much non-proprietary information as you can digest relative to our applications. Proprietary information at this time cannot be divulged do to current US Patent searches.
Seismology has been around for some time, agreed? Live-Vibe Technology™ has been around for sixteen years so we do not know everything or have a history of scientific data supporting it. When we say its a new approach, it is just that - a new technology where we are working to prove as a science.
Until the data arrives from our investment in third party testing, we can only back our claims in that we are willing to compare the performance of our products to any in today’s market - any comparisons, any products. The one leg we stand heavily on is the proof of undeniable musical performance.
Again, we are working to acquire you more information.
"We never said spikes would isolate seismological effects. I believe the word used was “rejected” (the audiotweak on 07-25-2016 9:18pm). We stated there is far more energy moving down the Sistrum Platform™ towards earth than energy flowing up the conductive platform hence rejecting the majority of seismic energy rising above the gravity of earth’s ground per the angles of geometry located at the tip of the Audio Point™ and our understanding of shear waves."
the trouble with that entire paragraph is that the frequencies involved are quite different so one set of vibrations coming down cannot block the seismic (very low) frequencies going up. Furthermore the energy involved with the seismic vibration is much much greater than the energy coming down towards the floor since seismic energy can move the entire building, and does move it, the everyday microseismic activity moves the building up and down, to and for, and in 3 rotational directions. The spikes are unable to deal with the rotational directions of seismic vibration and cannot block them. So the real analogy is it’s like a 44 Magnum vs a pea-shooter, with the seismic vibration being the 44 Magnum. Without decoupling techniques such a mass on spring the whole Coulomb device is moving right along with the motion of the bundling and the spikes are moving up and down right along with the motion of the building.
There is nothing coming down the pike resembling 0-20 Hz, but there is plenty of seismic vibratin going UP the pike in that region, which includes the resonant frequencies of tonearms, cartridges, turntable platters, CD laser assemblies circa 8-12 Hz.
If spikes could block seismic vibrations as you claim LIGO, the experiment to detect gravity waves could have saved itself an awful lot of time and effort by foregoing the very advanced seismic vibration isolation systems they developed and just used Coulomb type devices, or spikes or mechanical diodes. But that would not have worked. In order to obtain the instrument sensitivities that were eventually deemed necessary to detect gravity waves (recall they are the amplitude of the diameter of a neutron) REAL and HEROIC sesmic vibration isolation techniques were required. Gravity waves were not detected overnight. LIGO project was begun 20 years ago and didn’t detect gravity waves until last year, most of the effort was actually applied to the development of the seismic vibration isolation systems.
Geoff Kait Machina Dynamica vibration isolation & resonance control
The opinions of the engineers who have worked on this study throughout our history stated all along that the geometry governing the tip of the Audio Point rejected low frequency from the floor surface . Our newest associate in science flew in for a meeting to fully see what we were doing as she found our design for the mechanical grounding of musical instruments on the web and thought the two of us might be sharing on an infringement with regards to each other’s patents and methods. ...
She said it was common knowledge in her field of seismic science that this shape was a mechanical diode.
This is the full quotation. Personally my reading of the definition of a diode is close to 100% rejection, in other words isolation at the frequencies in question
I’m also hopelessly confused as to what you are claiming your devices do. Per your latest they DO NOT ISOLATE so presumably they do not reject any of the extremely low frequency interference that is at issue in all of this discussion and thus in comparison with spring based products bring nothing to the table
Arguments about the proportions of energy moving up rather than down are besides the point (and also act as a perfect demonstration that your product is not in any way a diode)
And by the way where is all this sub 8Hz interference moving down your platforms coming from (your fire hose analogy)? I’m not sure I’m aware of any well set up audio system that generates energy at this frequency? I think this was Geoff’s point in response
The one leg we stand heavily on is the proof of undeniable musical performance.
Really all of this fuss could have been avoided if you'd refrained from making claims based on assertions of science and instead said what you say above -- "we fine tune our stuff to sound good and improve the performance of your system", it was good enough for the makers of Cremona after all (and by the way I believe you)
Within our model the seismic energy has to rise up from the earth moving against the greater flow of energy established by geometry and material science that is rapidly moving downward supported by the laws of motion and gravity. We do not care where interfering energy comes from. It will arrive via air-borne, floor-borne and structure-borne sources regardless of any type of attempts to isolate it.
Our platforms are made of conductive materials and vibrates, attracting energy from every known source. The key to function is "resonance transfer" to ground via high speed conductive pathways depending heavily on the forces of gravity. The seismic energy actually arriving upwards at the component level is so minute after battling motion, gravity and space, well in truth we never heard it so these mini earthquakes were never on our radar.
Geoff was right.....total mumbo jumbo 🤔
You admitted you were not a physicist R Maicks.....but you should also have included 'scientist' in that disclaimer.
As folk freak rightly says......peddle your snake oil without the pretence of the relevant sciences that apply.
Sciences I might add, that are obviously a mystery to you 💩
"Our platforms are made of conductive materials and vibrates, attracting energy from every known source. The key to function is "resonance transfer" to ground via high speed conductive pathways depending heavily on the forces of gravity. The seismic energy actually arriving upwards at the component level is so minute after battling motion, gravity and space, well in truth we never heard it so these mini earthquakes were never on our radar."
vibrational forces, unlike mass, are not subject to gravity, which is actually an acceleration, not a force.. That rule applies to both vibrational forces coming down the pike and forces going up the pike. F=ma. Nor could your conductive materials attract energy as you say since energy, like force, is not "attract-able" as it were. I.e., they have no charge or magnetic pole.
I have yet to read anything thus far in this thread that would qualify as "science" which implies reproducible data. It is merely speculative physics (hello....it is the audiophilia after all). I am sure it could be had with the right labs, R&D budget, etc. Townsend data is non-existent. Machina has none. I know SS was working with a third party lab on various projects but I am unsure what happened. The data has yet to materialize. This is the state of audio. Posturing from one company against another is simply unadulterated hypocrisy.
Mr. Kait, instead of attempting physics lessons, show us the measurements backing up any of your products. One relevant to this thread would be helpful. Put that dusty undergraduate engineering degree to use.
"I have yet to read anything thus far in this thread that would qualify as "science" which implies reproducible data. It is merely speculative physics (hello....it is the audiophilia after all). I am sure it could be had with the right labs, R&D budget, etc. Townsend data is non-existent. Machina has none. I know SS was working with a third party lab on various projects but I am unsure what happened. The data has yet to materialize. This is the state of audio. Posturing from one company against another is simply unadulterated hypocrisy.
Mr. Kait, instead of attempting physics lessons, show us the measurements backing up any of your products. One relevant to this thread would be helpful. Put that dusty undergraduate engineering degree to use."
Rather than coming on like a bull in a china shop I suggest you head on over to your local library and do some due diligence.. You mightt even consider a refresher course in physics., this is not that difficult, are you what, an English major? Heck, you can even go to my page on vibration isolation. its been on my website fro gosh I don't know how long.
Folk, is your system more or less efficient with the Townsend products in place? In other words, do you still have to turn your pre-amp to 11 or is it now lower?
agear -- good question but the answer is not as simple as that
Firstly I have come to recognize that the limit on what is the "right" volume for a track is not loudness per se but in fact the impact of distortion and noise -- to whit resonances and all the niggling interferences in a poorly set up system. Prior to optimization I typically set the volume on my ARC 40th at 30-34 for CD playback. With optimization of the noise floor through fine tuning of my footers and the electrical system I now use a range of 34-40. In other words as you remove interference you benefit from increased dynamic range
Adding the Townshend Podiums had somewhat of a similar effect in the bass range. The immediate effect seems to be that the speakers are LESS efficient. i.e. it "sounds" less loud at the same volume setting. But quickly you realize that this is the removal of the floor borne boom that I described in a prior post. I find then that some tracks that had been limited by a bass distortion (e.g. a resonance or boom) could now be turned up a couple of notches without any issues.
So overall I cannot make any conclusion as to whether the Townshend kit has made my speaker more efficient in absolute terms, all I can say is that it helps get the speaker/room interface out of the way and lets you hear what is on the track irrespective of volume level
Two cases in point -- Nancy Harms "Bye Bye Blackbird", opens with close miked acoustic bass that can get out of control, now much better controlled and also makes it easier to seperate the room rattle (that is actually in the recording) from the bass that is causing it. Second example Melody Gardot "It Gonna Come" -- a plethora of bass sounds and soundstaging effects that I can now reach into while at the same time cranking the volume wheras before it overloaded the room
ps regarding your comments on lack of science I for one have no problem with references to known and published science (e.g. use of springs to manage seismic interference, even Mr Kait's citing of Sheldrake to support some of his tweaks), it's the stuff I've never heard of before that I expect people to be able to provide some back up for. WIthout a source it's hard to attach any credibility for or against
Rather than coming on like a bull in a china shop I suggest you head on over to your local library and do some due diligence.. You mightt even consider a refresher course in physics., this is not that difficult, are you what, an English major? Heck, you can even go to my page on vibration isolation. its been on my website fro gosh I don’t know how long.
but above all have a nice day.
Again, a maestro of irony. Avoiding the question is not a valid position. The information is not for me but rather for the sake of your audience right? That is why you post. You are not an intellectual good Samaritan.
No, I am not an english major. Making patronizing assumptions is not a defensible position either. I am merely a physician for whom english is my primary language. I have an undergraduate and graduate degree from the same intuition you apparently went to. I have enough math and physics in my belt to facilitate meaningless exchanges on this and other sites. But I digress. Machinaman, I find your scatty brand of audio sophistry highly entertaining so keep it up.
agear 1,102 posts 08-04-2016 2:29pm Rather than coming on like a bull in a china shop I suggest you head on over to your local library and do some due diligence.. You mightt even consider a refresher course in physics., this is not that difficult, are you what, an English major? Heck, you can even go to my page on vibration isolation. its been on my website fro gosh I don’t know how long.
but above all have a nice day. Again, a maestro of irony. Avoiding the question is not a valid position. The information is not for me but rather for the sake of your audience right? That is why you post. You are not an intellectual Good Samaritan.
whatever. I don't even know what you're going on about.
No, I am not an english major. Making patronizing assumptions is not a defensible position either. I am merely a physician for whom english is my primary language. I have an undergraduate and graduate degree from the same intuition you apparently went to. I have enough math and physics in my belt to facilitate meaningless exchanges on this and other sites. But I digress. Machinaman, I find your scatty brand of audio sophistry highly entertaining so keep it up.
I'm sure you've undoubtly forgotten all of your math and physics so no need to puff yourself up. Education is what's left after you forgot everything you learned in school. Measurements are overrated. Haven't you been paying attention? Besides, the only measurements that matter are the ones performed by third party testers.
Furthermore the energy involved with the seismic vibration is much much greater than the energy coming down towards the floor since seismic energy can move the entire building, and does move it, the everyday microseismic activity moves the building up and down, to and for, and in 3 rotational directions.
So what does that have to do with musical reproduction and how does three rotational directions affect musical quality?
Without decoupling techniques such a mass on spring the whole Coulomb device is moving right along with the motion of the bundling and the spikes are moving up and down right along with the motion of the building.
Absolutely correct, but who ever said the device can not or should not move with the motion of the building and what does the motion of the building have to do with musical reproduction? In a concert or practice hall the instruments and musicians also move right along with the motion of the building too.
There is nothing coming down the pike resembling 0-20 Hz, but there is plenty of seismic vibratin going UP the pike in that region, which includes the resonant frequencies of tonearms, cartridges, turntable platters, CD laser assemblies circa 8-12 Hz.
I’ve always heard what goes up must come down…so do the rising seismic waves come back to earth, do they change into airborne resonance, does any portion of energy return to earth via gravity does any of that leftover energy then affect the component residing on springs? Does this also have an affect on component operational efficiency?
REAL and HEROIC sesmic vibration isolation techniques were required. Gravity waves were not detected overnight. LIGO project was begun 20 years ago and didn’t detect gravity waves until last year, most of the effort was actually applied to the development of the seismic vibration isolation systems.
My uncle flew in project Sageburner managed by Commander Jim Lovell. These guys were very real and heroic but other than experiencing true low end frequency, I am not sure if this project or the LIGO project has anything to do with sound reproduction.
Our model is “not” a seismic vibration isolation system and we do not know if gravity waves affect sound waves or at what frequencies or if these waves are even part of the “Audible Range of Human Hearing.”
We are still learning...
HALCRO states:
As folk freak rightly says......peddle your snake oil without the pretence of the relevant sciences that apply.
Sciences I might add, that are obviously a mystery to you
All this crap about science and not one word about musical reproduction techniques. Not one word as to why or how avoiding earthquakes is good for sound. Not one word or 'question answered' as to why INAUDIBLE seismic waves prohibit the function of musical systems or musical instruments, not one word about these sub-harmonic waves affecting pitch or harmonics and someone please tell me how the freaking LIGO project relates to music reproduction?
Just slamming down the age old sciences... lacking any vision as to the future of sound or the possibility that a new technology is at hand - nothing but age old arguments and AGAIN, I am not a scientist or physicist nor would I ever want to be.
BUT,
Put me behind a concert reinforcement system (FOH or monitor mix) or sit me down in any recording studio and I will show you and teach you what good sound is and what all that mumbo jumbo is all about. Invite me to your house and I will help show you where your system might be lacking and physically demonstrate how to improve upon it. I will also point out your system’s strengths and am also fairly accomplished with the acoustic sciences and applications as well. That is my science - the science of sound.
Our technology is quite functional, proven over time and is “scalable” from the mounting of a resistor to a component or loudspeaker chassis to equipment racking to structural room environments and yes it improves and adapts to musical instruments too. Isolation and spring theory never went in music where Star Sound has already gone
(just my opinion of course).
Say what you will, call us names as they did back in 1999, you do not have to believe in anything we do, products that we build, product performance we generate or the discovery of a new technology as we know fully the direction our company is headed. My guess is that all the reviewers who own our products are full of crap too? Funny… grown men arguing, some with textbook experience, some with practical experience and some without any.
I sat behind this Star Sound desk for sixteen years working to improve audio system performance and solving problems with thousands of audiophiles, music lovers, musicians and listeners. You cannot buy an education like this from any science or research college. Sixteen years in the school of hard knocks and my teachers who are my peers are now our customers.
Snake oil peddlers? I take strong offense to… uncalled for and obviously shows that we have never met or conversed before.
So gents, are we up for a personal visit? Are we up for a product comparison or listening test? Are we up for an audition of our technology in the privacy of your home? Are we up to visiting an Energy Room and hear a presentation that will last in your memory for a good long time? Are we up to learning more about sound - I am, and my phone is always open. In addition, I promise to keep my ass out of science and will gladly pay our engineers overtime to participate here.
If provoked, this old snake bites!
Regards,
Robert
Star Sound
Engineers innovate and build things then scientists figure out why they work.
Having read this entire thread as well as a somewhat similar thread on What's Best Forum I suspect most of us music lovers just want to get some good practical results from our efforts at racking our equipment. Regardless of the method used. and I suspect different methods can result in improvement of sound, I do think an overall consistent approach for each system has more merit than a hodgepodge method. I use the Star Sound platforms under my speakers and tube mono blocks to good effect. Across the room the on side wall area my components reside on a DIY rack of 3 3/4 in thick cutting boards with brass threaded rod through to the floor, resting on Herbies isolation footers. Addition of the footers after having acorn nuts ending the brass rods onto the floor increased resolution. The Herbies footers also erased the tendency of the turntable to howl at increased volumes. I would love to try a Star Sound rack for my components but that's not in the budget presently. Carry on with your research, guys. All in all it's pretty interesting stuff. The Gary Koh discussion from What's Best Forum on isolation/decoupling focuses primarily on speakers but is in depth and informative. It introduces the makeup of the floor as a factor and ends up somewhat inconclusive.
I've sat back and watched this thread roll along..I feel a need to respond to the conversation.I have a hard time understanding the constant banter and nit picking of everyones choices here on the gon .People come here to converse and share ideas and there experiences with products or music.I play a Paul Reed Smith guitar. We could argue all day as to why I prefer a specific pickup.I could have someone explain till the cows come how why the winding is better,This I know I prefer my McCarty pickups,because I have tried hundreds of guitars.My point is "What does it do in MY system"?. One guy raves over blue jean cables "oh there great" ..well dam sure not in my system, tried them and many others.I use Acoustic Zen because they sound good in my setup( and were not 25k) the difference is clearly noticable .I can say I have had atleast an hour long conversation with Robert at Starsound .I emailed him and he called me at home to answer my questions.We talked at great length about Star sound,music and being musicians.Never did he pressure me, actually he offered me a chance to try his products for my guitar amps and home audio.I find it interesting that he has offered a plane ticket or open ended chance to try his gear to a few here.Even a in house visit but that is snake oil ? To try it in your own system with the product owner there?.He was very respectful and offered alot of options from less expensive to thru the roof money.I am in the process of trying some of his products.Proof is in the pudding to this guy, will it make a difference? There are many who say it does and also many who say geoffs springs do too!.Whatever works for you and your budget.
I have nothing personal against Robert and indeed he appears to be a nice guy...and maybe even a 'good' guy. What I object to, is the use of 'voodoo' science to prop up some ill-defined theory in audio. There is so much in this hobby of ours that is unable to be currently explained by science...not that there's anything wrong with that. You don't see or hear Ted Denney of Synergistic Research trying to explain his weird and wonderful contraptions with 'voodoo' science. He can't and doesn't even attempt it. He says...."try it free of obligation and if it doesn't work for you, we'll refund your money in its entirety".
Put me behind a concert reinforcement system (FOH or monitor mix) or sit me down in any recording studio and I will show you and teach you what good sound is and what all that mumbo jumbo is all about. Invite me to your house and I will help show you where your system might be lacking and physically demonstrate how to improve upon it. I will also point out your system’s strengths and am also fairly accomplished with the acoustic sciences and applications as well. That is my science - the science of sound.
This is what you should have been saying from the start Robert. Please stay away from the perceived pressure to justify yourself 'scientifically'..🤓 Good luck....
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