Just to be clear, I was quoting and responding to what someone else said in the reference to the Townshend video. Actually we are agreeing about the mechanical feedback issue. That is the most important thing when isolating speakers. Especially subwoofers. But the frequencies below 30 Hz - the so called seismic frequencies - are still running around. That's why you also need to isolate everything else. That's why Townshend called his first ISO stand SEISMIC SINK - because it dealt with seismic vibrations.
Showing 50 responses by geoffkait
mains - you might possibly be mistaking me for someone else as I never mentioned the Townshend video. I am a strong proponent of isolating everything due to the deleterious effects on the audio signal of seismic vibrations - produced by traffic, wind, ocean tides, speaker feedback, subways, footfall, local construction projects, Earth crust motion, etc. Generally speaking I eschew racks since most of them exacerbate the floor borne seismic vibration although I can certainly appreciate that racks organize one’s components. I also do not favor any vibration isolation device that employs rubber or really any soft materials whether for damping or any other reason. As far as your experience goes, everyone has a story and yours is neither better or worse than another's. |
kavakat1 19 posts 12-08-2016 5:11pm Good People: I came across a fine piece of scholarly work from an old Stereophile Magazine regarding the numbers of techniques for vibration control. Check this out. It is scholarly yet written for the layman to understand. I think it may give understanding and change the tenor of this discussion. http://www.stereophile.com/reference/52/index.html#7gKzV9vFIbL28AQH.97 Yours, Aye Kavakat1 Thanks for posting the link to Bad Vibes that was published in Stereophile more than 20 years ago. Actually, rather than address a "number of techniques for vibration control," the article focuses almost exclusively on vibration isolation, which at that time was relatively new to audiophiles. As Shannon Dickson points out the article the inspiration for his article on Vibration Isolation was the Townshend Seismic Sink and the Vibraplane, both of which operate according to the mass-on-spring concept. What made the article so scholarly, as you characterized it, was actually that it was the first article in an audiophile magazine to address vibration isolation in such depth. cheers, Geoff Kait Machina Dynamica |
Theaudiotweak wrote, "Remember isolation can only exist in the absence of matter..if you get the drift." Nobody ever said isolation is or has to be perfect 100% isolation. What we’re talking about is actually rather imperfect isolation, a low passive mechanical filter (for most iso devices) that is inefficient for very low frequencies but increasing effective as one goes up in frequency. You know, depending on where the resonant frequency point happens to be. Thus by the point you get up to say 20 Hz the isolation is very close to 100%. And for frequencies that really count, e.g., the resonant frequencies of tonearms, cartridges, laser assemblies, etc. Circa 10-12 Hz the effectiveness of a competent iso device is actually quite good. |
theaudiotweak 1,353 posts 07-25-2016 12:37pm So these mechanical filters, how do they relieve a component of the on board self generated noise from transformers, motor drives,filter capacitors, wiring and really anything that is electrically or mechanically connected within the chassis This is all one circuit path so how do you suggest removing this interfering energy? Tom Nobody said the mechanical filters relieve vibration from the shelf or the component sitting on the shelf, including the electronic elements inside the component. I trust I didn’t give that impression. At the same time there are any number of (relatively lo-tech) ways to deal with those issues, including but not limited to constrained layer damping, vibration dissipators like those Tekna Sonic dampers, cork damping, damping of the top plate of the "mechanical filter," shielding the component from airborne vibration, damping transformers, CD transport mechanisms, use of very hard materials such as NASA grade ceramics to mount the component on the top plate as well as to mount the iso device on the floor or rack and Marigo VTS dots for all capacitors, circuit boards, electron tubes and the chassis itself. now a question for you. How do you keep very low frequency and low frequency structureborne vibration from getting up into the component? One imagines you look the other way and hope it disappears. cheers, Geoff Kait machina dynamica we do artificial atoms right |
Theaudiotweak wrote, "As for the handling of vibration and in your words “your low tech approaches” in dealing with vibration across all the various and numerous parts of the electronic component, we find them to be anisotropic (physics of unequal physical properties along different axes) in design and nature." Actually those were not my words. What I actually said was relatively low tech methods (like damping) can be used to deal with vibration on the top plate of the mechanical filter and in the component. As for your answer to my question regarding how your product deals with seismic type vibration it appears to be some sort of mumbo jumbo. To whit, "Since we are of the isotropic group (having physical properties that do not vary with direction) the limited two materials used in our designs provide higher speeds at which all energy being transferred allows for greater management over time, speed and decay. These three physical effects provide the difference you hear in the performance and sound quality of our technology compared to all the rest." cheers, geoff kait |
If it were actually true that the pointed tips of cones and other pointy footers prevented seismic vibration from coming up into the component then why are there so many advanced seismic isolation devices around, not only the ones supporting scanning electron microscopes but the ones in laboratories and universities around the world? Why wouldn’t they all just use "mechanical diodes?" Wouldn’t it be easier and cheaper? And why wouldn’t LIGO, the physics experiment designed to detect gravity waves, also use mechanical diodes in it’s vibration isolation, at least in part of it’s isolation system? Why does LIGO, you know, the project that DID observe gravity waves last year, the ones produced by a merger of two black holes, due ENTIRELY to the effectiveness of it’s seismic isolation system, use springs and pendulums and other advanced vibration isolation systems and NOT mechanical diodes? The answer is that mechanical diodes are not effective as a seismic vibration isolator whereas mass on spring systems are. That probably explains the plethora of advanced isolation devices that have been introduced into the audiophiles market the past twenty years. How many Vibraplanes have been sold since it was introduced twenty years ago? Heck, gotta be close to 10,000. Necessity is the mother of invention. Cheers, Geoff Kait machina dynamica give me a strong enough spring and I’ll isolate the world |
Addendum to my last: apparently you guys including your "seismic expert" don’t appreciate the problem fully’ Because the Earth’s crust motion and other very low frequency generators like wind ,traffic and wave action on the shore produce wave action of the Earth surface, the entire building is moving. thus, ANY solid coupling to the floor or rack simply allows that building motion to FORCE the component to move along with it, in concert with it.t. This is true not only for the vertical direction but for all six directions of motion. Since the vibrational wave on the surface of the Earth has six components. due to its wavelike nature any solid "mechanical diode" is physically incapable of dealing with rotational and horizontal forces, even if I give you credit for some vertical isolation which I actually don’t. so, like a small boat on the ocean, when a wave passes under it the boat moves up and down as well as rolls side to side and back and forth as well. cheers, Geoff Kait machina dynamica |
rickw062 18 posts 07-27-2016 2:50pm Coming from California I can truly understand isolation , we are not dealing with earths vibes. In this hobby we can effectively isolate and even better drain/remove internal noise . If you have turntable rumble or a needle bouncing due to wooden floors you must isolate that component.Now that you have isolated your components you are storing ALL internal noise and energy from tubes,transformers ,etc.Now let's remove all of the internal noise, vibration without total isolation.Open the drain and let it go.Wow this is better than a high dollar component change.After 10 + years of using AUDIO POINTS I am able to enjoy the full potential of my components.I can now enjoy the music in a more LIVE and realistic way.Only ridding the internal noise will bring the live performance to you.Your system has way more potential than you even know.Trust your ears, audio points are keepers.I have absolutely no affiliation with this company whatsoever.I was fortunate enough to borrow a few thing from a friend.Boy was I skeptical.Voodoo,snakeoil,whatever.This stuff actually works wonders above other products.If you can A/B against your stuff you will be amazed.You do have to let it settle a couple days or so.When removed you will be highly disappointed.This is my experience. Hear what you already have, you might lose that high dollar upgrade bug. Happy listening,Rick W. I agree in general. I already commented in detail regarding damping or dissipating or otherwise dealing with internal and or airborne vibrations IN ADDITION TO actual vibration isoaltion, the type that addresses Earth crust motion and other very low frequency vibration producers. Have no idea on Earth why you would say, "we are not dealing with Earth's vibes." Have a nice day |
Robert wrote, "Isolation prohibits the evacuation of resonance formed from vibration. Said resonance builds up within and on all surface areas of the chassis including circuits and all the small parts, wire, power supplies, etc., including every part and surface area of the chassis. This establishes tremendous component operational inefficiencies as this resonance also propagates on all smooth surfaces clogging all signal pathways (electrical, electromechanical and acoustic) per Coulomb’s Law." Robert, as I already said damping is necessary and sufficient to deal with (medium and high frequency) vibrations that show up on the top plate of an isolation device, whether produced by an internal motor, transformer, CD transport mechanism, acoustic waves, etc. BUT this is in addition to isolation which is necessary to deal with the *very low frequency* structureborne vibrations. It is not true that isolation prevents the internal vibrations from escaping the system. The trick is to properly isolate and properly damp without over damping. If there were no such thing as isolation or if isolation prevented vibrations from escaping the system, as you say, then the LIGO project would never have been able to detect gravity waves, the amplitudes of which, by the way, are on the order of the diameter of a neutron. In fact, LIGO would never have been able to detect gravity waves without vibration isolation. Period. Surely your seismic expert knows that. I have almost always used vibration dissipation, "mechanical diodes" and damping techniques in conjunction with or integrated into my isolation platforms, including my sub Hertz Nimbus platform. It is not exactly a big secret that damping of the top plate is important. I have had many discussions with Michael Green of TuneLand and Michael Green Audio, who preaches a very similar message as yours, that vibrations should be allowed to flow freely in the system and the room and that isolation is either not possible or ineffective. Are you aware of Michael Green and are your methods similar to his? cheers, geoff kait |
audiopoint 24 posts 07-28-2016 6:00pm Hello Geoff, Agreed that damping a chassis will have an effect on the sonic outcome however it will also change the sonic of the component and in most cases change the original musical character of the product from what the designer or name brand is presenting. Please don’t put words in my mouth. What I am saying is that damping a chassis or electronic element or whatever - when it is done correctly and without over-damping - improves the sound. I didn't say it would be easy, what is, right? I wish to hear better sound that what the original product sounds like, yes that’s true, now that you mention it. The whole idea is to try to obtain a better signal quality than you had before, no? Note to self: This is the same argument that Michael Green and I used to have all the time. Let the vibrations flow free. Just like old times. ;-) geoff kait machina dynamics we do artificial atoms right |
Folkfreak wrote, "others with more knowldge of springs (Geoff?) may comment on whether the setup transmits higher frequencies, it may." The springs are simply part of the mass/spring iso system. Analogous to seismic vibration isolation, isolating the system from the vibrational energy of the speakers (cabinets) is accomplished by absorbing the energy via the mass/spring system, where it’s converted to work and heat. The mass/spring system would thus have to move somewhat during the whole isolation process. |
theaudiotweak 1,355 posts 07-30-2016 11:32am Hence creating motion artifacts and larger amounts of interfering energy within the component that is placed in "isolation" Tom No, Tom. The motion is imperceptible and only at one frequency, you know, the resonant frequency of the iso system. So no harm/no foul. Plus there are not larger amounts of interfering energy within the component that is placed in isolation. There’s LESS interfering energy. That’s kind of the whole point. Hel-looo! Have you given any consideration to consulting your new seismologist on this subject? cheerios |
Audiopoint wrote, "Wow, as I’m finishing up with this post, I just read your latest one liner with regards to one of our members! Believe me Mr Kate, you do not want to compare your career to hers nor do you want to go head to head in a science debate as that would just be wasting the lady’s time." I am definitely wasting MY time debating you. Since you don’t know what my career is you’re just pissing up a rope. Bring the seismologist on. Let’s rock! ;-). One of our members? You take a lot for granite! ;-) Then Audiopoint wrote, "You obviously already know everything known to mankind or at least your ego believes you do. Gee, I thought your career would be higher up the ladder by now, proving that selling a bag of rocks will only take you so far. (just my personal opinion of course)." Maybe be you should just stick to insults and sophomore jokes as that appears to be your strong suit. Leave the science to someone else. Have a nice day geoff kait machina dynamics no goats no glory |
audiopoint 26 posts 08-01-2016 1:25pm Geoffkait: "Maybe be you should just stick to insults and sophomore jokes as that appears to be your strong suit. Leave the science to someone else." Mr. Kait, In closing, we have been eating your insulting ways for far too long on this forum and just wanted to see how you would react to a taste of your own medicine, so now we know… Pick on our products, nit- pick our technology as best you can but kindly leave our good people alone. You are correct. I am a sound engineer by trade and not a scientist. Getting paid for what my talents are, using my gifts of hearing and delivering good sound definitely beats spending my time arguing earthquakes and the like. The important thing is not to argue as there is no right or wrong, just good and better methods. We are on to something excitingly new for all of audio and music so we participate here only to assist in education. We will do our best to stay on topic but...even sophomores like me reply to everyone's questions when asked. Sincerely, Robert Maicks Star Sound Actually, to be fair, I was not picking on your products. I was picking on your science. See the difference? Have a nice day, Geoff Kait machina dynamica Give me a strong enough spring and I'll isolate the world |
agear 1,097 posts 08-02-2016 4:03pm Geoffkait: "Actually, to be fair, I was not picking on your products. I was picking on your science. See the difference? Have a nice day, Geoff Kait machina dynamica Give me a strong enough spring and I’ll isolate the world to which agear commented, "A master of irony we are.....;" what’s ironic about it? Then agear inquired, "What do you do for a living or are you a full time audio tweak guru? I cannot imagine that is more fertile ground for an aerospace engineer than NASA...." NASA? Shirley you’re joking. Makes the shackles on the back of neck stand up. Have a nice day |
audiopoint 27 posts 08-02-2016 6:29pm "You absolutely lost me with your last comment referencing picking on Star Sound’s technology. Why would anyone lacking a formal background in music or sound reproduction pick on anything proven to be musically successful, widely accepted by highly educated electrical and mechanical engineers and add to that possesses the graciousness of public support?" I never said your product was not musically successful. I only pointed out your product does not address seismic vibration apparently because you it to be inconsequential and or that mechanical diodes account for seismic vibration. Strawman arguments. then Robert wrote, "Is your presence in audio just to aggravate people or are you out to prove you are "the best of the best of the best” relying on your aerospace background?" I like to challenge people on any number of audio and technical issues. I actually never claimed to be the best of the best. I actually don’t rely on my aerospace background. I didn’t even mention it. You did. Your statements are Strawman arguments. then Robert wrote, "I have read about people, who get kicks from argumentative lifestyles and have to ask, are you one of those personalities?" I enjoy joy a good debate, that’s true. I like to keep personalities out of this and stick to the science. finally, Robert wrote, "Unfortunately my vacation is over and I must get back to more important company matters. We are still awaiting your answers to our previous technical questions with regards to vibration and science (your specialty) so please let us know if you intend to answer them so I may set time aside for review and if not…" i think the answers to your questions you either answered yourself or have been answered by yours truly already in this thread. Geoff Kait machina dynamica we do artificial atoms right |
agear 1,099 posts 08-03-2016 3:35pm Geoff Kait machina dynamica Give me a strong enough spring and I’ll isolate the world to which agear commented, "A master of irony we are.....;" what’s ironic about it? Then agear inquired, "What do you do for a living or are you a full time audio tweak guru? I cannot imagine that is more fertile ground for an aerospace engineer than NASA...." NASA? Shirley you’re joking. Makes the shackles on the back of neck stand up. Have a nice day to which agear replied, "Geoff, you are not connecting the dots. Its ironic simply because because you yourself have been ridiculed on multiple forums for the absence of any science behind your products. I don’t agree with that stance necessarily, but it is what it is. Trolls be trolls." I don't understand what you mean. I have lots, and I do mean lots, of science behind my products. They are, in fact, ALL based on science. I was even gracious enough to provide the details of how the Teleportation Tweak works on my web site. Don't tell me you missed it! Ditto for the Super Intelligent Chip, vibration isolation stands, crystals, the Clever Little Clock. Follow? agear then commented, The NASA reference is derived from your CV/bio on your website. I don't understand your response." I don't understand your question. If you have access to my CV/bio what's all the rumpus? I worked at NASA as Sr. mathematician but that was 45 years ago. Finally agear asked, "What do you do for a living?" I like to think of myself as a song and dance man. |
"Our platforms are made of conductive materials and vibrates, attracting energy from every known source. The key to function is "resonance transfer" to ground via high speed conductive pathways depending heavily on the forces of gravity. The seismic energy actually arriving upwards at the component level is so minute after battling motion, gravity and space, well in truth we never heard it so these mini earthquakes were never on our radar." vibrational forces, unlike mass, are not subject to gravity, which is actually an acceleration, not a force.. That rule applies to both vibrational forces coming down the pike and forces going up the pike. F=ma. Nor could your conductive materials attract energy as you say since energy, like force, is not "attract-able" as it were. I.e., they have no charge or magnetic pole. |
"We never said spikes would isolate seismological effects. I believe the word used was “rejected” (the audiotweak on 07-25-2016 9:18pm). We stated there is far more energy moving down the Sistrum Platform™ towards earth than energy flowing up the conductive platform hence rejecting the majority of seismic energy rising above the gravity of earth’s ground per the angles of geometry located at the tip of the Audio Point™ and our understanding of shear waves." the trouble with that entire paragraph is that the frequencies involved are quite different so one set of vibrations coming down cannot block the seismic (very low) frequencies going up. Furthermore the energy involved with the seismic vibration is much much greater than the energy coming down towards the floor since seismic energy can move the entire building, and does move it, the everyday microseismic activity moves the building up and down, to and for, and in 3 rotational directions. The spikes are unable to deal with the rotational directions of seismic vibration and cannot block them. So the real analogy is it’s like a 44 Magnum vs a pea-shooter, with the seismic vibration being the 44 Magnum. Without decoupling techniques such a mass on spring the whole Coulomb device is moving right along with the motion of the bundling and the spikes are moving up and down right along with the motion of the building. There is nothing coming down the pike resembling 0-20 Hz, but there is plenty of seismic vibratin going UP the pike in that region, which includes the resonant frequencies of tonearms, cartridges, turntable platters, CD laser assemblies circa 8-12 Hz. If spikes could block seismic vibrations as you claim LIGO, the experiment to detect gravity waves could have saved itself an awful lot of time and effort by foregoing the very advanced seismic vibration isolation systems they developed and just used Coulomb type devices, or spikes or mechanical diodes. But that would not have worked. In order to obtain the instrument sensitivities that were eventually deemed necessary to detect gravity waves (recall they are the amplitude of the diameter of a neutron) REAL and HEROIC sesmic vibration isolation techniques were required. Gravity waves were not detected overnight. LIGO project was begun 20 years ago and didn’t detect gravity waves until last year, most of the effort was actually applied to the development of the seismic vibration isolation systems. Geoff Kait Machina Dynamica vibration isolation & resonance control |
agear 1,100 post "I have yet to read anything thus far in this thread that would qualify as "science" which implies reproducible data. It is merely speculative physics (hello....it is the audiophilia after all). I am sure it could be had with the right labs, R&D budget, etc. Townsend data is non-existent. Machina has none. I know SS was working with a third party lab on various projects but I am unsure what happened. The data has yet to materialize. This is the state of audio. Posturing from one company against another is simply unadulterated hypocrisy. Rather than coming on like a bull in a china shop I suggest you head on over to your local library and do some due diligence.. You mightt even consider a refresher course in physics., this is not that difficult, are you what, an English major? Heck, you can even go to my page on vibration isolation. its been on my website fro gosh I don't know how long. but above all have a nice day. |
agear 1,102 posts 08-04-2016 2:29pm Rather than coming on like a bull in a china shop I suggest you head on over to your local library and do some due diligence.. You mightt even consider a refresher course in physics., this is not that difficult, are you what, an English major? Heck, you can even go to my page on vibration isolation. its been on my website fro gosh I don’t know how long. but above all have a nice day. Again, a maestro of irony. Avoiding the question is not a valid position. The information is not for me but rather for the sake of your audience right? That is why you post. You are not an intellectual Good Samaritan. whatever. I don't even know what you're going on about. No, I am not an english major. Making patronizing assumptions is not a defensible position either. I am merely a physician for whom english is my primary language. I have an undergraduate and graduate degree from the same intuition you apparently went to. I have enough math and physics in my belt to facilitate meaningless exchanges on this and other sites. But I digress. Machinaman, I find your scatty brand of audio sophistry highly entertaining so keep it up. I'm sure you've undoubtly forgotten all of your math and physics so no need to puff yourself up. Education is what's left after you forgot everything you learned in school. Measurements are overrated. Haven't you been paying attention? Besides, the only measurements that matter are the ones performed by third party testers. Have a nice day. |
Just to be clear I never said Robert’s product(s) doesn’t work or is/are ineffective or any such thing. My argument has to do with explanations of what vibration isolation is and what can be done to ameliorate it. It would certainly be a BIG MISTAKE to take the view, as Robert does, that because seismic vibrations, because their frequencies being generally below 20 Hz, I.e., BELOW the audible frequency range, that they can be dismissed as UNIMPORTANT. I am a physicist (theoretical propulsion and fluid dynamics a + ) with 20 years developing vibration isolation devices for audiophiles, including my erstwhile 6 degree of freedom 0.5 Hz resonant frequency Nimbus Unipivot which, if you can believe it, employs a single narrow air spring with very high internal pressure, technically almost impossible to construct. A little like trying to balance a large cinder block on a rubber pencil. But I can get 0.5 Hz performance. "What does LIGO have to do with audiophiles?" Best line of the thread. As I have maintained over the course of this thread BOTH the vibrations on the top plate from various sources AND the seismic forces from various sources - Earth motion, traffic, etc. MUST BE ADDRESSED for optimum results. Of course, one can acheive good - though not optimal - results by choosing only ONE SOLUTION. It all depends on what you’re trying to achieve and where you get off. Even for seismic isolation there is no perfect solution since almost all such devices are mechanical low pass filters and because most do not address all 6 directions of isolation. I have always addressed both solutions and still do, by the way. Even the Nimbus incorporated dual symmetrical damping of the top plate. As Shannon Dickson opined in his watershed article Bad Vibes, the first and one of the best tutorials on vibration isolation, in particular the details of the just introduced Vibraplane iso stand, published in Stereophile Magazine twenty years ago, "the only good vibration is a dead vibration." cheers, geoff kait machina dynamica |
oleschool 199 posts 08-05-2016 3:05pm "Geoff, I can say as a "Novice" of vibration I find it a stretch to understand how a tone through my phone will improve my system." I know what you mean. There has been considerable blowback on the Teleportation Tweak but I guess I asked for it, right? Lol Act-chew-ally, I don’t send a tone through the phone, although that's the most frequent guess. It has nothing to do with tones, signals that condition the system, white noise, pink noise, sine waves or Schumann frequencies or anything even remotely like that. The system doesn’t even have to be turned ON at the time I do the TT nor does the customer have to be in the house. He doesn’t even have to be in the city. And I can do the TT anywhere in the world. As fate would have it I decided last year to get it all out there and write an explanation how the Teleportation Tweak works. The whole story can finally be told. The name of the paper is, "How the Teleportation Tweak Works - The Whole Story Can Finally be Told." http://machinadynamica.com/machina43.htm Oleschool also wrote, "Hey guys send me springs and starsound platform I will put them under my tube guitar amp and my various audio gear and I will give an honest answer( I know niether of you need my approval).You didnt respond Robert did,I do believe your springs work they are proven throught the world .I would think they would be a big improvement under my sub. I have 33 yrs in audio( salesmen at The Discerning Ear in Md late 80s- 90s.) and have been a musician for 35 yrs i have tried hundreds if not thousand of ridiculious tweeks to real deal stuff while many applauded at my house and others laughed at me.If it works I believe it, I guess thats why one of the biggest threads here is on fuses lol Respect to all." I have a pretty strict policy not to sell any of products to participants on threads here. Sorry about that. I view it as a conflict of interest. Thanks for your interest, however. cheers, Geoff Kait Machina Dynamica the only good vibration is a dead vibration |
mapman 13,588 posts 08-06-2016 12:27pm That’s a very practical policy actually since nobody who spends time discussing anything of consequence with Gk is likely to buy his wares though his explanations must have surely made his 4th grade science teachers head spin. Saves everyone a lot of embarrassment. 🏆 One wonders what that little emoticon is at the end of your post, Grasshopper. My guess it’s a trophy you gave yourself for the most posts on Agon that don’t actually say anything. Either that or it’s a trophy for the best impersonation of a real engineer. ;-) (sarcasm emoticon) have a nice day |
oleschool 209 posts 08-06-2016 9:12pm geoff . You seem to respond to every comment but yet I asked what is the conflict of interest with selling me a spring? A positive or negative thread about your "product" .And again if i bid the 2 dollars for your "tweek" you wouldnt sell it to me? Again dazed and confused .... OK, I've changed my mind. Cheers, geoff kait |
bccoven wrote, "Oh, you want an explanation of how it works? OK....give me a couple hours and I'll make something up. Whether it has any grounding in science (or hell, reality for that matter) is irrelevant -- it's an explanation, right? Gimme a break. Maybe you should "teleport" yourself back to whatever planet you came from (and take your Peter Belt science textbooks with you)." Ouch! Very ouch! |
Post removed Aug 08, 2016 agear 1,110 posts 08-08-2016 11:43pm Geoff, you need to catalogue the insults much like this blogger did in response to his hate mail: http://www.somethingawful.com/your-band-sucks/your-band-sucks-2/ I have neither the time nor the resources for such an undertaking. |
agear 1,108 posts 08-08-2016 5:58pm bccoven wrote, "Oh, you want an explanation of how it works? OK....give me a couple hours and I’ll make something up. Whether it has any grounding in science (or hell, reality for that matter) is irrelevant -- it’s an explanation, right? Gimme a break. Maybe you should "teleport" yourself back to whatever planet you came from (and take your Peter Belt science textbooks with you)." To which I responded, "Ouch! Very ouch!" Then agear asked, "Jeff, is that from another thread? Its tempting to use that line on you but it does not win points for originality....." The mods deleted his post, which originally had preceded my response. :-) I dunno why the Teleportation Tweak evokes such angst and anger. ;-) |
oleschool 221 posts 08-09-2016 4:07pm I personally have decide to rebuild my entire house on springs, create my own fusion generator, uv bubble dome the entire place, control atmosphere to a perfect temp and humidity.Then allow my audio room to float on a magnetic system with solid 24" thick lead walls... Good for you! Now you’re duplicated what the big boys do, like the high end atomic physics labs, even the Air Force Satellite Control facility, the Blue Cube. It’s actually quite efficacious to construct multiple stages of isolation as long as you remember to separate their resonant frequencies sufficiently. I constructed a three stage version of my erstwhile Nirvana Platform, place a penny on the top plate and the whole contraption undulates and sways up and down and to the side and all around at a frequency of around 0.5 Hz like a drunken belly dancer. |
Agear: "The take home message is simple: time for some new material. We are all here to be entertained (as well), and the last thing we want is for Grandpa to keep telling the same stories....;) Would it be safe to assume (no pun intended) since you apparently have no sense of humor you’re not a proctologist? |
Mike Green wrote, "part 2, another topic really but because my name was mentioned Part two of my post is about Geoff Kait. Geoff has a Sony Walkman Cassette player with earbuds and spends his time trolling audio forums for the sake of getting nothing more than a rise out of folks. It’s entertaining if you are a little on the warped side, but as is often recommended best to just report geoff and let your mods take care of things." actually, one reason I was interested in a portable battery powered system was Mike Green’s insistence that low mass systems are inherently better than high mass systems. So, in reality my portable walkman with Ultralight headphones subscribes to Mike Green’s concept. Anyone not see the irony that he should attack my low mass system? Oh, maybe he means only HIS low mass systems... Mike Green also wrote, "For the record, I have never had discussions with geoff kait and was only a victim of his trolling on Stereophile. We could have had conversations if he was legitimate but many members pressed him only to come to the same conclusions. This forum will no doubt head down the same path if trolling is allowed. The Stereophile forum which once was alive is a graveyard now sadly do to trolling. nuff said" If you like I’ll count the discussions we had together on Stereophile. Three years of them. Hel-loo! The main point of contention is that you eschew damping and vibration isolation, instead preferring to allow the vibrations to be free to move wherever they wish. Did I state your position correctly? geoff kait machina Dynamica |
oleschool 365 posts 09-09-2016 3:59pm Like i said before the proofs in the pudding ... I am a fan of let it vibrate it has made a noticeable difference for the better i run all audiopoints top to bottom. well, actually proof sometimes in not in the pudding. I’ve had Audiopoints myself, quite some time ago, as I was one of Mike Green’s first customers. While I like the effects of Audiopoints, real vibration isolation is better in every way. And actually, now that I think about it there are even other cones and pointed things that are better than Audiopoints, such as for example Golden Sound's NASA grade ceramic Super DH cones. Things have changed quite a bit since thirty years ago, I think it’s fair to say. Vibration Isolation and resonance control is one area that has changed considerably, you know, ever since the introduction of the Vibraplane - twenty years ago. Time flies when you’re having fun. Cough, cough. While you fellows have actually done, by dismissing vibration isolation, is obtain what we refer to as a local maximum. Cheers, Geoff Kait |
oleschool 381 posts 09-09-2016 5:37pm I,m not a pro geoff ,all i know is they made a marked improvemnent in my setup (guitars ya i know my way around the 100 plus i have owned after 35 yrs ).I,m sure there are better or newer setups i cannot respond because i use the audiopoints.Regardless of anyones comments pro or con.I personnally used them first under my spkrs-tighter bass and better soundstage openess, under my sub -massive change in performance. Under my tt -i got better low end and a more open sound ,and also they look cool under it lol. they are now under every piece of gear i have including my rack and power supply .I am a fan personnally thats all i can say .No more no less ,they improved "MY" sound." Oleschool, just in case I wasn’t clear, I am not disputing your results with the Audiopoints. Actually, I haven’t heard anyone make comments con, as you suggest. I was using Audiopoints 25 years ago. Furthermore, unlike the claims of both Mike and Robert, you know, the claims how Audiopoints work, I.e., by removing micro vibration from the component, vibration produced by motors, transformers, CD transport mechanisms, I trust I’m not putting words in their mouths, strongly suggests that the vibration in the component IS A PROBLEM, no? I.e., that vibration degrades the sound. Thus, allowing vibrations to roam free in the system or the room is probably not a wise strategy. Therefore, in light of the evidence that vibration, micro and macro, is not something to just slough off or ignore, then, gentle readers, you must agree that any vibration, regardless of source is a problem, no? With the Audiopoints, the seismic type vibration is free to come up into the system and degrade the sound. I don’t think anyone is prepared to claim Audiopoints stifle seismic vibrations. also, let me remind everyone that I have always proposed a combination of very hard cones under the component WITH vibration isolation. I actually propose cones under the component and under the vibration isolation device itself, since in my world it’s necessary to allow all vibrations to exit the iso system as rapidly as possible. And for Mikes info, Mike who is so fond of the expression "walk the walk," I am actually currently using a combination of vibration isolation and cones in my portable Walkman set up. Thus, I allow micro vibrations to EXIT the system rapidly AND disallow seismic vibrations getting up into the component. I am also not shy about using a smidgen of viscoelastic material just in case some micro vibrations have somehow escaped my elaborate trap. The only good vibration is a dead vibration. Hel-loo! Geoff Kait Machina Dynamica vibration isolation and resonance control |
Robert wrote, "In closing: One of our engineers examined your ‘Isolation Springs’ and noted there is a “shear component” as well as a “compression component” with a single metal conduit providing a “primary mechanical grounding conductor” which is very similar to our technical approach. Are you absolutely sure you products are actually isolating and not transferring resonance?" Strange he should ask since just about everyone and his brother knows that mass on spring isolation devices work by attenuating the transmission of seismic vibrations according to a simple mathematical formula. Obviously the isolation effectiveness is a function of the resonant frequency of the iso system and technique in setting up the iso device as I’ve already alluded to. Thus, even advanced iso devices allow some vibration up into the component. Duh! Nobody ever claimed these iso devices are perfect, or that there is perfect isolation. However, by minimizing resonant frequency of the device, maximizing the degrees of freedom one can obtain very good results. Spring based systems are well documented and are a proven technology for vibration isolation. One need look no further than the LIGO project to detect gravity waves to see just how well (talk about understatement) springs do in real science experiments. And by employing tricks of the trade, you know, tricks like cryogenically treating the springs, one can do very well. That’s why my spring based systems have been and are in some of best systems extant. In closing let me turn your opening snarky comment around and ask you, don’t you think you and your engineer could use a little research into vibration isolation? have a nice day geoff kait machina dynamica advanced audio conceits |
agear 1,125 posts 09-14-2016 3:06pm That’s why my spring based systems have been and are in some of best systems extant. Please provide pictures or links to said systems. http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina16.htm cheers, Geoff Kait machina dynamica |
theaudiotweak 1,361 posts 09-14-2016 3:47pm Geoff, Please list and explain what specific wave form types your products are designed to encounter and deal with..People other than yourself may wish to be informed. Thanks in advance. Tom tom, I think the boat has sailed already as far as my trying to explain vibration isolation. I have already explained myself numerous times. Prior to asking repeatedly to explain myself it seems only fair for you and anyone else who’s not caught up on the while vibration isolation thing, which was introduced to audiophiles twenty years ago, to at least look into what it is and specifically what seismic type vibrations I’m referring to and how specifically mass-on-spring systems perform to mitigate the sesmic type vibrations I’m referring to, I.e., the ones that make the entire building shake, not only up and down but side to side and in the three rotational directions as well. I can certainly recommend Shannon Dickson’s milestone article in Stereophile magazine twenty years ago, Bad Vibes, in which he provides an excellent overview of vibration isolation and describes the operation of the then new iso stand, the Vibraplane. http://www.stereophile.com/reference/52/#zFHyvMoSslRuhvcm.97 cheers, Geoff Kait machina dynamica ps when you say people other than yourself may wish to be informed, I can certainly sympathize with that sentiment, I wish others would wish to be informed also. ;-) |
agear 1,126 posts 09-14-2016 11:15pm Geoff, those images are from 2002. As you intonated earlier, things have moved on. I have perused a majority of the virtual systems on this site, and your springs are no where to be found. As I mentioned earlier LIGO uses springs and they are required to use what's best. Why more audiophiles don't use springs, well, you'll have to ask them. "I looked everywhere but couldn't find them" is a common refrain. |
theaudiotweak 1,364 posts 09-15-2016 5:16pm Geoff There are waveforms and portions of waveforms that your methods do not account for but they do alter. Your methods directly eliminate portions of these waveforms that are crucial to how a speaker diaphragm works, operates and makes sound. It is all text book, you just haven't compiled the data. I thought you were much faster. Tom Let's see, what was that Jethro Tull album? Oh, yeah, Thick as a Brick. |
theaudiotweak 1,363 posts 09-15-2016 12:49pm Geoff, When a thunderstorm rocks and rolls thru the limestone creek bed outback I can’t hear that noise thru my cello’s body laying on the concrete floor. Nor when the train a mile away can be heard late at night and under some different atmosphere that has the same non effect. I have tried. What may be good science for living on a fault line or under the elevated sure faults up speaker and audio components when listening to music. You and some others have built a better mouse trap, one that does not allow for an efficient method for the wave forms that are self generated within any electronic component or speaker to leave the chassis. You have become highly accomplished at isolating this self generated component noise within a metal container or wooden box so it can be left to contaminate the signal that is to follow. Self perpetuating noise pollution for sure. What you won’t let in, won’t let anything out either. Tom I can’t tell whether you’re slow or just pretending to be slow. I’ve already stated on more than three occasions on this thread and elsewhere on these fora that both vibration isolation AND some way of dissipating vibrations generated by motors, transformers, acoustic waves in the room hitting the component, etc. I never said vibration isolation solves all vibration problems. I have always included a means for internal vibration to exit the isolation system, including the component itself. As I've said repeatedly. Follow? |