hi geoff thanks for the update the seismic sink back then was a little out of my league price wise, i have only started shouting about the townshend seismic podiums because of what they did in my system and other uk audiphiles systems i have heard, theres talk in the uk that PMC loudspeakers will be building the platforms into there loudspeakers also rumours regarding B&W being very impressed when hearing the podiums being demonstrated , i think its great when a product really makes an enormous difference in sound quality everytime it is demonstrated i have heard nothing negative except maybe prices but when you hear the difference in your own system it seems quite a bargain also i have mentioned the best place to buy townshend audio products from so the price becomes much more affordable Emporium hifi have been around 25 years and still going very strong regards john
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if anyone wants to buy townshend audio seismic isolation products please contact Emporium hifi website or by phone on 01508518542 they are from the uk and the townshend audio prices are by far the cheapest anywhere , you can order any new product you require at discounted prices and shipping to anywhere in the usa or europe is not a problem |
Just to be clear, I was quoting and responding to what someone else said in the reference to the Townshend video. Actually we are agreeing about the mechanical feedback issue. That is the most important thing when isolating speakers. Especially subwoofers. But the frequencies below 30 Hz - the so called seismic frequencies - are still running around. That's why you also need to isolate everything else. That's why Townshend called his first ISO stand SEISMIC SINK - because it dealt with seismic vibrations. |
hi geoffkait heres what im referring to geoffkait5,196 posts09-17-2016 11:11ammains 3 posts 09-17-2016 5:12am YOUTUBE Townshend audio How to isolate speakers from ground borne vibrations. while it is probably true that the Townshend isolation devices prevent structural ground borne vibrations from getting up into the speakers wouldn’t the more important function of the Townshend iso devices be to prevent the speaker vibrations from getting down to the floor thus possibly producing what we generally refer to as acoustic breakthrough? Besides the speakers are going to be vibrating whilst playing anyway, so there’s not much the Townshend iso devices can do to alleviate that speaker vibration and it’s affect on the internal crossover, speaker input connectors, wiring, etc. inside the speakers, no? Excerpt from Townshend website: "Seismic Isolation Podium Designed as a range to accommodate any size and weight of speaker – standmount plus stand, floorstander or subwoofer – the Seismic Podium breaks the acoustic connection between the floor and the speaker, preventing the passage of deleterious vibrations both to and from the speaker cabinets. For a detailed explanation of why this is an absolute necessity before any speaker can perform to its true potential, read ‘Earthquakes on hi-fi’." when im listening to music no energy from the speakers vibrates threw the floor, using podiums your speakers are completely isolated measured down to 4hz so i would confidently say acoustic breakthrough has been achieved down to a measured 4hz regards john |
mains - you might possibly be mistaking me for someone else as I never mentioned the Townshend video. I am a strong proponent of isolating everything due to the deleterious effects on the audio signal of seismic vibrations - produced by traffic, wind, ocean tides, speaker feedback, subways, footfall, local construction projects, Earth crust motion, etc. Generally speaking I eschew racks since most of them exacerbate the floor borne seismic vibration although I can certainly appreciate that racks organize one’s components. I also do not favor any vibration isolation device that employs rubber or really any soft materials whether for damping or any other reason. As far as your experience goes, everyone has a story and yours is neither better or worse than another's. |
hi i do not believe spending several thousand pounds on a rack is needed unless its made out of gold and diamonds, concentrate on speaker isolation have a good listen to your system with your speakers completely isolated from the room then decide if further isolation is required if you already have a rack cheap or expensive it doesnt matter try placing clearlight audio RDC cones underneath your equipment to see if you enjoy any further changes to the sound , for the money they are very good they seem to concentrate on improving the sound without any flavour or discolorations of there own.i would try your stillpoints under your loudspeakers talk to stillpoints for there exact recommendations but i seriously recommend you contact your local townshend audio dealer and arrange a demonstration of the seismic podiums everytime i have witnessed such a demo the sound becomes absolutely incredible it questions the need to isolate any further , if you like the podiums which i know you will you could buy the townshend rack its 2500 dollars or so and has built in isolation pods at the bottom stopping any vibrations entering the rack. you can still further isolate with the seismic pods under your equipment in sets of 3 or 4 that would be the ultimate the complete job down, after going this route i found that the stillpoints really colour the sound the mini was ok a little forward the ss very full on and not natural sounding which was not what i wanted to achieve the ultra 5s cost an absolute fortune just had a price increase in the uk 670gbp each i believe i needed 8 to isolate my speakers and im not convinced or had any proof that they actually work like i said i sold all mine and have never looked back im getting magnificent sound now with the townshend products i hope my story helps good luck |
geoffkait hi im sorry i am very new to these forums i was replying to you after you mentioned the Townshend audio you tube video , i thought you got the wrong end of the stick about the podiums im very sorry nothing i wrote was meant to offend , this thread i believe was regarding using stillpoints with or without a expensive rack, i personally do not like the changes stillpoints make to the electronics i have never tried them under loudspeakers, even stillpoints recommend isolating your speakers first once you have reduced or eliminated any vibrations from your speakers if you have the budget you could buy a nice rack , and yes you can then change the sound with the stillpoints as long as you have the room between the shelves. its a very expensive approach. i did this i used podiums for my speakers that completely eliminated floor vibrations i then used a seismic rack with adjustable shelves and then used the stillpoints SS and ultra 5 under my equipment , i didnt like the sound with the stillpoints so i sold the lot and the money i got paid for the podiums and the rack so i ended up with a much better sound than i started with and no stillpoints |
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geoffkait hi as for the townshend podiums they do not just isolate the speakers from ground born vibrations , they allow the speakers to float so theres is no room interaction between the speakers and anything else ,a speaker being played without the use of a podium will vibrate threw the floorboards and walls basically everywhere so the vibrations will also enter the electronics and the other speakers in a 2 channel stereo system or enter all 5 speakers if using a home cinema system , i have experienced many different loudspeakers being placed on podiums and the results are always spectacular , it makes you realize that this level of isolation to your loudspeakers is so important, when isolating your hifi system the most important place to start is the loudspeakers , once they are completely isolated the rest of the system is then not affected by ground born vibration which has always been a major issue , with you speakers successfully isolated on the seismic podiums you can then look at isolating the rest of your hifi from suspected vibrations generated by the components there selves , townshend audio seismic platforms or seismic pods are a great place to start , they are very effective with all types of equipment and will handle any weight from cd players to huge amplifiers the platforms come in various sizes so you just need the size of your equipment and the weight ,its the same process for your loudspeakers your require the footprint and weight of each speaker then you can choose the right size pair of podiums for your situation, i know there are lots of isolation ideas and products on the market , the townshend audio seismic isolation products are the result of 50 years of R&D and are backed up by engineering facts no snake oil or magic dust i have heard all the seismic products in various hifi situations and the results are always spectacular the biggest bang for the buck is the podiums for your speakers after hearing the difference from just the podiums and no more floor bourne vibration entering your speakers or electronics you will already be very happy with the results already but for piece of mind you could still isolate your electronics to completely finish the job using the best products on the market with measurements and 50 years of R&D behind them there is not any other company i know of that can offer these facts and that have been around as long as max townshend the seismic podiums are maybe the biggest break threw ever in the reproduction of recorded music they really are that good and not a speaker spike in site check them out you will then know exactly why im so convinced and so full of praise for them please google Townshend audio in the uk and take a look at there award winning products regards john |
Hello Everyone, Hope I am not veering too far off topic.... Experimenting with wooden cutting boards as platforms for speakers, cdps and amps. Would be most grateful if I could get some questions I have answered... 1) Ikea Aptitlig ...are they carbonized bamboo...or? 2) Has anyone compared the Ikea bamboo vs maple or walnut as platforms for cpd and/or speakers? Sonic differences? Thanks. |
kavakat1 19 posts 12-08-2016 5:11pm Good People: I came across a fine piece of scholarly work from an old Stereophile Magazine regarding the numbers of techniques for vibration control. Check this out. It is scholarly yet written for the layman to understand. I think it may give understanding and change the tenor of this discussion. http://www.stereophile.com/reference/52/index.html#7gKzV9vFIbL28AQH.97 Yours, Aye Kavakat1 Thanks for posting the link to Bad Vibes that was published in Stereophile more than 20 years ago. Actually, rather than address a "number of techniques for vibration control," the article focuses almost exclusively on vibration isolation, which at that time was relatively new to audiophiles. As Shannon Dickson points out the article the inspiration for his article on Vibration Isolation was the Townshend Seismic Sink and the Vibraplane, both of which operate according to the mass-on-spring concept. What made the article so scholarly, as you characterized it, was actually that it was the first article in an audiophile magazine to address vibration isolation in such depth. cheers, Geoff Kait Machina Dynamica |
Good People: I came across a fine piece of scholarly work from an old Stereophile Magazine regarding the numbers of techniques for vibration control. Check this out. It is scholarly yet written for the layman to understand. I think it may give understanding and change the tenor of this discussion. http://www.stereophile.com/reference/52/index.html#7gKzV9vFIbL28AQH.97 Yours, Aye Kavakat1 |
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hifiman5 @geoffkait My bad on the ebay listing instead of Audiogon. I just looked at the ad. again. Is the stand designed to support components within a certain range of mass? It looks like it could be applicable to supporting a large power regenerator like a PS Audio P10 or a sizable amplifier. The dimensions of the top plate are 18x12 so the Bio Mikro G can isolate a range of components, from turntables to preamps to CD players to amps to power conditioners/power regenerators to small or medium size speakers. The Bio Mikro G is about two inches high and contains about 5 lb of glass microbeads below the top plate. All wood is bamboo. Viscoelastic feet support the stand. Geoff Kait machina dynamica |
hifiman5 @geoffkait I am not trying to be at all snarky here, but is that eBay posting a gag of some sort. The pic looked to show a nicely crafted product but the write-up sounded like a comedy bit followed up by the dismissive questions. This whole thing may be well known to many but predates my recent involvement with the forum. Just wonderin’ Actually, it’s not an eBay listing, it’s an Audiogon listing for Machina Dynamica’s brand new isolation stand that mimics the biological capabilities of the woodpecker. The woodpecker is able to withstand very high negative g’s on the order of -1000 g whilst pecking wood, thus preventing brain damage or even death, because of unique biological characteristics of the tissue and bone surrounding it’s brain that absorb and dissipate the shock and vibration. The active material in the Bio Mikro G isolation stand is micro-scale glass beads that behave like the spongy tissue surrounding the woodpecker’s brain. And the bamboo mimics the bony material of the Mr. Woodpecker’s head. Geoff Kait machina dynamica no goats no glory |
@geoffkait I am not trying to be at all snarky here, but is that eBay posting a gag of some sort. The pic looked to show a nicely crafted product but the write-up sounded like a comedy bit followed up by the dismissive questions. This whole thing may be well known to many but predates my recent involvement with the forum. Just wonderin' |
Hmm well gee wilikers i may not be all book smart and have fancy Sunday clothes. 😁 But i must say reading the banter on this thread is like a comedy skit .. And my chuckle today was on the questions on ebay .. And at 50 yrs old geoff i may have a few things outside of audio gear i could teach you . Believe it or not |
The link that works is posted below. Apparently a hyperlink CAN have too many http's in it. https://www.audiogon.com/listings/stands-machina-dynamica-bio-mikro-g-isolation-stand-2016-09-03-acc... |
Folks, I think we have the answer: http://https//www.audiogon.com/listings/stands-machina-dynamica-bio-mikro-g-isolation-stand-2016-09-03-accessories-22042-mosby-va |
mains 3 posts 09-17-2016 5:12am YOUTUBE Townshend audio How to isolate speakers from ground borne vibrations. while it is probably true that the Townshend isolation devices prevent structural ground borne vibrations from getting up into the speakers wouldn’t the more important function of the Townshend iso devices be to prevent the speaker vibrations from getting down to the floor thus possibly producing what we generally refer to as acoustic breakthrough? Besides the speakers are going to be vibrating whilst playing anyway, so there’s not much the Townshend iso devices can do to alleviate that speaker vibration and it’s affect on the internal crossover, speaker input connectors, wiring, etc. inside the speakers, no? Excerpt from Townshend website: "Seismic Isolation Podium Designed as a range to accommodate any size and weight of speaker – standmount plus stand, floorstander or subwoofer – the Seismic Podium breaks the acoustic connection between the floor and the speaker, preventing the passage of deleterious vibrations both to and from the speaker cabinets. For a detailed explanation of why this is an absolute necessity before any speaker can perform to its true potential, read ‘Earthquakes on hi-fi’." |
YOUTUBE Townshend audio How to isolate speakers from ground borne vibration: Seismic Isolation Podium for speakers have a look please you search is over regards john my email johnhannant2016@hotmail.co.uk , 07769675378 thank you please feel free to contact me for Townshend audio products 40% discount at least plus postage. |
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agear 1,129 posts 09-15-2016 11:09pm ps for those with good memories Machina Dynamica spring based platforms were highly desirable and much sought after back in the day on Vinyl Asylum, I’m sorry I did not get the chance to acquire one when they were available You can always redeem the loss by snagging a teleportation tweak: http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina60.htm Thanks for posting the link. I'm giving serious consideration to promoting you to associate shill. |
agear 1,129 posts 09-15-2016 11:35pm Geoffkait: LIGO this the most sensitive physics experiment in history! the gravity waves which it detected finally last year had amplitude the diameter of a neutron. If LIGO uses springs as opposed to some cones or spikes or other coupling devices then springs are require to achieve the experiment objectives. To which agear responded, "And the relevance of that in regards to audio is what? We are not measuring things but propagating energy. Again, a spring for a violin endpin? I think not. What have you actually measured in regards to your products and their performance or is it all quantum divination?" the relevance to audio is that seismic vibration must be addressed in order to eliminate or attenuate external low frequency vibration where electrical and or optical components are involved, as they are in both LIGO and audio systems. For CD the nano nature of the data requires the laser beam to be relatively unaffected by low frequency vibration for optimum performance. One need look no further than turntable platters and tonearms and cartidges appreciate that low frequency seismic type vibration can excite the resonant frequencies of those items, resonant frequencies are circa 10 to 14 Hz, well below the frequencies of any vibration produced by the component or by acoustic waves. Follow? I never suggested a spring for a violin endpin. Try to keep up with the discussion. It is very easy to calculate the effectiveness of isolation devices and you can find the resonant frequency manually for spring based devices. The effectiveness of a particular device depends on how well set up the device is, as I have already pointed out optimum performance depends on how the component is interfaced to the top plate and how the device itself is supported on the floor or table. Why audio magazines never measure the performance of iso devices is a good question as it’s not rocket science. There is no requirement for me personally to measure anything. geoff kait machina dynamica no goats no glory |
LIGO this the most sensitive physics experiment in history! the gravity waves which it detected finally last year had amplitude the diameter of a neutron. If LIGO uses springs as opposed to some cones or spikes or other coupling devices then springs are require to achieve the experiment objectives.And the relevance of that in regards to audio is what? We are not measuring things but propagating energy. Again, a spring for a violin endpin? I think not. What have you actually measured in regards to your products and their performance or is it all quantum divination? |
ps for those with good memories Machina Dynamica spring based platforms were highly desirable and much sought after back in the day on Vinyl Asylum, I’m sorry I did not get the chance to acquire one when they were availableYou can always redeem the loss by snagging a teleportation tweak: http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina60.htm |
theaudiotweak 1,364 posts 09-15-2016 5:16pm Geoff There are waveforms and portions of waveforms that your methods do not account for but they do alter. Your methods directly eliminate portions of these waveforms that are crucial to how a speaker diaphragm works, operates and makes sound. It is all text book, you just haven't compiled the data. I thought you were much faster. Tom Let's see, what was that Jethro Tull album? Oh, yeah, Thick as a Brick. |
Agear wrote, "Diversionary answer. LIGO is irrelevant. How about a cheap bedspring for a violin endpin? Now that would make the music come to life." LIGO this the most sensitive physics experiment in history! the gravity waves which it detected finally last year had amplitude the diameter of a neutron. If LIGO uses springs as opposed to some cones or spikes or other coupling devices then springs are require to achieve the experiment objectives. agear also wrote, "Since no one in the Audiogon ecosystem appears to be using your products, how about a pic of your own system unless of course its a lonely walkman as Monsieur Greene insinuated." I have already stated many times I’m using a portable Sony Walkman CD player and Sony Walkman cassette player for my sources. Are you dense or just pretending to be dense? Hel-loo! I'm certainly not trying to hide it, on the contrary. Duh! Besides, Michael Green is a big proponent of low mass audio systems. He’s just jealous that mine is the lowest mass system around at only 10 ounces and much lower mass than anything he has been able to come up with. |
Geoff There are waveforms and portions of waveforms that your methods do not account for but they do alter. Your methods directly eliminate portions of these waveforms that are crucial to how a speaker diaphragm works, operates and makes sound. It is all text book, you just haven't compiled the data. I thought you were much faster. Tom |
agear - you observe Since no one in the Audiogon ecosystem appears to be using your productsFact is Geoff is not the only proponent of spring based isolation from subsonic vibration and I along with many well regarded reviewers and experts are getting great results from the current Townshend kit. Your attempts to dismiss his emphasis on the need to deal with the vibrations impinging on our systems as well as those generated within them are unhelpful. Remember this entire debate was triggered by a manufacturers assertion that his carefully shaped spike would reject seismic interference, an assertion he has been unable to provide any evidence for ps for those with good memories Machina Dynamica spring based platforms were highly desirable and much sought after back in the day on Vinyl Asylum, I'm sorry I did not get the chance to acquire one when they were available |
As I mentioned earlier LIGO uses springs and they are required to use what's best. Why more audiophiles don't use springs, well, you'll have to ask them. "I looked everywhere but couldn't find them" is a common refrain.Diversionary answer. LIGO is irrelevant. How about a cheap bedspring for a violin endpin? Now that would make the music come to life. Since no one in the Audiogon ecosystem appears to be using your products, how about a pic of your own system unless of course its a lonely walkman as Monsieur Greene insinuated. |
theaudiotweak 1,363 posts 09-15-2016 12:49pm Geoff, When a thunderstorm rocks and rolls thru the limestone creek bed outback I can’t hear that noise thru my cello’s body laying on the concrete floor. Nor when the train a mile away can be heard late at night and under some different atmosphere that has the same non effect. I have tried. What may be good science for living on a fault line or under the elevated sure faults up speaker and audio components when listening to music. You and some others have built a better mouse trap, one that does not allow for an efficient method for the wave forms that are self generated within any electronic component or speaker to leave the chassis. You have become highly accomplished at isolating this self generated component noise within a metal container or wooden box so it can be left to contaminate the signal that is to follow. Self perpetuating noise pollution for sure. What you won’t let in, won’t let anything out either. Tom I can’t tell whether you’re slow or just pretending to be slow. I’ve already stated on more than three occasions on this thread and elsewhere on these fora that both vibration isolation AND some way of dissipating vibrations generated by motors, transformers, acoustic waves in the room hitting the component, etc. I never said vibration isolation solves all vibration problems. I have always included a means for internal vibration to exit the isolation system, including the component itself. As I've said repeatedly. Follow? |
Geoff, When a thunderstorm rocks and rolls thru the limestone creek bed outback I can't hear that noise thru my cello's body laying on the concrete floor. Nor when the train a mile away can be heard late at night and under some different atmosphere that has the same non effect. I have tried. What may be good science for living on a fault line or under the elevated sure faults up speaker and audio components when listening to music. You and some others have built a better mouse trap, one that does not allow for an efficient method for the wave forms that are self generated within any electronic component or speaker to leave the chassis. You have become highly accomplished at isolating this self generated component noise within a metal container or wooden box so it can be left to contaminate the signal that is to follow. Self perpetuating noise pollution for sure. What you won't let in, won't let anything out either. Tom |
agear 1,126 posts 09-14-2016 11:15pm Geoff, those images are from 2002. As you intonated earlier, things have moved on. I have perused a majority of the virtual systems on this site, and your springs are no where to be found. As I mentioned earlier LIGO uses springs and they are required to use what's best. Why more audiophiles don't use springs, well, you'll have to ask them. "I looked everywhere but couldn't find them" is a common refrain. |
agear 1,125 posts 09-14-2016 3:06pm That’s why my spring based systems have been and are in some of best systems extant. Please provide pictures or links to said systems. http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina16.htm cheers, Geoff Kait machina dynamica |
theaudiotweak 1,361 posts 09-14-2016 3:47pm Geoff, Please list and explain what specific wave form types your products are designed to encounter and deal with..People other than yourself may wish to be informed. Thanks in advance. Tom tom, I think the boat has sailed already as far as my trying to explain vibration isolation. I have already explained myself numerous times. Prior to asking repeatedly to explain myself it seems only fair for you and anyone else who’s not caught up on the while vibration isolation thing, which was introduced to audiophiles twenty years ago, to at least look into what it is and specifically what seismic type vibrations I’m referring to and how specifically mass-on-spring systems perform to mitigate the sesmic type vibrations I’m referring to, I.e., the ones that make the entire building shake, not only up and down but side to side and in the three rotational directions as well. I can certainly recommend Shannon Dickson’s milestone article in Stereophile magazine twenty years ago, Bad Vibes, in which he provides an excellent overview of vibration isolation and describes the operation of the then new iso stand, the Vibraplane. http://www.stereophile.com/reference/52/#zFHyvMoSslRuhvcm.97 cheers, Geoff Kait machina dynamica ps when you say people other than yourself may wish to be informed, I can certainly sympathize with that sentiment, I wish others would wish to be informed also. ;-) |