Raul,
Forgot to mention - Final have always done complete bespoke systems. Their cartridge at the time was a rebadged Fidelity research - looks like an FR7. I have both an Ikeda Kiwame and a vintage Dynavector Nova 13D ( Ebony bodied version ) which is due for retipping. Currently using a back up cartridge - Shure V15 type V ( shocking to some I'm sure ). |
Raul/Dertonarm,
One other thing on the power supply on the Final - as well as having separate regulation for 33 & 45 it also has a "torque control". There is definitely an optimum point for sound. With regards to the string drive I cant try a rubber belt as the pulley has a very narrow slot for the string. However the speed is much more stable with surgical silk than others I have tried. The Top Class Audio site has a detailed view of the bearing components and structure of the current Final TT. Its almost identical to mine. The top Melco's would be interesting to hear. |
Dear Raul,
at least you are a music lover - not too bad :-). But seriously I have to apologize for running a business in "the real world" not aswering your post earlier. I saw you and many other MS owners behind you waiting for a lecture. I will dissapoint you.
Maybe I am not a expert on Micro Seiki too. Nevertheless I have figured out what you can do with these well built machines and whoever is telling me he did not regard the big Micros as serious contenders - there are other fine table out of course - may need another approach to them.
I am using rubber belts as well as threads. Who told you this funny story about my preferences. Hopefully not me :-)
Listening is believing Raul. Come over here, and if you return keeping your opinion on the big Micros I will sell my equipment...
deal?
best & fun only - Thuchan |
Well, maybe this could help to other persons to figure it:
http://www.google.com.mx/search?q=melco+turntables&hl=es&prmd=ivns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=2vnCTduVJOvKiALU642wAw&ved=0CD4QsAQ&biw=1360&bih=634
R. |
Dear Dertonarm: I never had on " hand " the Melco that I assume was the ones made it by Maki Engineering Laboratory Company. I don't know other that its heavy weight how could compare against the Final or other today top TTs.
A Contest ( as you name it. ) with main heavy weight TT characteristic means IMHO almost nothing about quality performance level.
Permit me to ask you: what is your " take " here?
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Thuchan: Even that you don't give your answers yet I would like to add ( for you take in count with your answers. ) why you follow that myth that using a thread is way better than a rubber belt with the MS TTs: could you?
Thank you in advance.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dead Dover, Not to forget the Melco turntables in this Contest.
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Dover: Just curios. I understand that Final marketed in Japan a phono cartridge ( I think with an integrated headshell and I think an expensive one. ) that was very well regarded as something truly special.
Do you own this cartridge? was Kitamura its designer or that cartridge is a different " Final " manufacturer?
I disturb you because there are not many ( only a few. ) Final products owners as you are so a first hand experience always is a learning one.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Raul - thanks for feedback. The Final was built in the 70's and early 80's - which means Kitamura was using ac sine wave generator power supply 35 years ago - and yet we are barely seeing this today. There seems to have been much colaboration in Japan in those days. I have also seen various Micro's heavily modified by Final Labs. The 2 versions of the Ginga turntable from Audio Note/Kondo also appears to be built by Final. |
Dear Dover: Yes, high mass help to speed stability especialy on BD designs and you are totally right: power supply makes a difference and the MS ones are not great ones, I have to modified my unit and improved but my take is the same with the MS TTs.
I never had the opportunity to heard your Final TT but that " sine wave generator " for those old times means a lot in that power supply design contrary to the MS ones. Today Acoustic Signature TTs works with similar power supply Final characteristic but this is 25 years after/latter!! my hat-off to Kitamura San.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Thuchan: Agree, I'm not an expert on MS I'm only a music lover and an always learning and in " movement " audiophile.
Are you a MS expert?, yes? : well, what makes do you " convert " in a MS expert against a " rockie " like me? what do you mean with a " well installed 5000/8000? are you suggesting that mine was not " well installed "? why is that?, please explain me I appreciate your advice seriously. As you know I'm always ready to learn and improve.Thank you in advance.
Btw, could be /is there any " tiny " possibility that things are the other way around and you did not learn yet enough on the MS whole subject?. I understand you like the easy to mount a tonearm through the MS units but for example in the Acoustic Signature TTs is in different way similar easy but this TT characteristic has nothing to say when we are talking of neutrality and quality performance level or maybe you think that the flywheel makes the difference. I don't know that's why your advise is mandatory.
Anyway, waiting for your learning ( and I mean it. ) answers as other MS owners I think are waiting too. Many of us participate in this forum to share our audio/music experiences and learn from other people audio/music experiences.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Raul,
you are not an expert on Micro Seiki I conclude from your statements and it seems to me you never listened to a well installed Micro Seiki 5000 or 8000 in a good system - what a pitty. You really missed something.
best & fun only -Thuchan |
Raul,
In the case of the high mass Final Audio that I have, I think the key attributes are speed stability. Most suspended table/rubber belts have wow and pitch problems on piano in my experience. I note that many of the high mass designs produced today do not have great power supplies - 20kg platters driven by motors/supplies that look like they couldn't spin a cornflake. As an example of the importance of power supply a friend has a Rega P9 - its key strength compared to the priced competition is timing. Interestingly many years ago when I got my first MIT Reference interconnect there was a bigger improvement using it in the power supply of the Final Lab turntable rather than between pre/power. ( FAR power supply has ac sine wave generator and power amp driving the motor ). |
Dear Lewm: +++++ " Does anyone know what is so special about the big M-S turntables, apart from their obvious build quality, which can after all be matched by several of today's high end belt drive turntables? " +++++
IMHO there is nothing especial other than MS was one of the TT heavy weight BD design " pioneers " .
I agree with your friend on " "good" but not mind-blowing " TT and IMHO several today TT's are better and more neutral than the MS.
I had my first " encounter " with MS through an USA japanese audio items importer company named Japanese Stereo that was located in LA ( I think in Wildshire Blvd. ). The model I saw the first was the SX-8000-II and I was no less than " shocked ": beautiful machine when in those times I was playing with Technics SP10s and Denons DD TTs that against the MS looked like " baby's toys ". I never had the money to buy it even that Japanese Stereo had it very good prices. I can't remember the 8000 price but the RX-1500 full equiped ( vacuum plater and the like ) was for 1.3K.
Btw, was through this distributor where I bought my SAECs/Audiocraft/Goldbug/Koetsu/Highphonic/etc, etc japanese tonearms, cartridges, mats, clamps and the like.
Japanese designers trusted on heavy weight TTs, I think that the heaviest was the one from American Sound with a 50kg on the platter alone where the biggest MS has " only " 28kg.
The Final Paruthenon named here weights 140kg and that from AS 170kg. Seems to me that these people were " crazy " about heavy weight and its influence on TT quality performance.
I'm not with that heavy mass used to damp or taking away " resonances/vibrations " ( of course for speed inertia. ) and I think that even today several TT designers and persons that posted here does not find out yet where precisely reside or which is main factor/ characteristic for a neutral TT: heavy mass can't do it, at least is what several TTs shows and showed till today.
+++++ " The motor assembly seems quite large but probably in part due to the incorporation of an elecronic drive system. " +++++
the motor it self was build by a Matushita group company and the TT controls design inside are not first rate, the weight seems to me need it to compensate for the heavy TT platter. Some today TTs comes with a stand alone motor and separate TT control/electronics.
I can tell you that for almost any person that never been in direct " touch " ( other than readed about. ) with the MS ones and bought it IMHO his first impression will be as mine: WOW WOW and certainly that that WoW will translate on a non-true WoW " feeling " about its quality performance level. After the time people learn about and then put these mahines where it belongs against other TTs. Well there are persons either that never learn.
I for good left the MS audio " stage/step " behind and follow " the road " in front/forward: the life is short.
As always only an opinion.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
|
You may also get some ideas on the big Micros from the thread:
Micro SX-8000 II or SZ-1
best & fun only - Thuchan |
Hello Dertonarm,
While it may be that we do not agree on some things 100%, this time we do. Maybe sometime, just maybe, we can hear each others turntables, and see if we like the flavors. I suspect we will. :) |
Dertonam,
Just to add my 2 cents - turntables owned - Linn, Pink Triangle, Sota, Oracle, Well Tempered, Roksan, Garrard 301 - current turntable used and much preferred is the Final Labs Parthenon - this is like a micro seiki steroids. It is in fact the same turntable used by my friend Warwick Mickell who was the Foreign Correspondent for The Absolute Sound Magazine in the early years.
The key improvements over the Micro's are - solid base ( SPZ some composite alloy/lead ) solid platter ( not a bell ) with inverted bearing, copper mat ( twice the weight of the micto's ), and most importantly the reconstructed ac power generator & thread drive for accurate speed control.
Kitamura the designer was most upset by the TAS review by HP as the turntable was reviewed mounted on an air suspension.
The design wicks energy away from the record and a rigid platform is recommended. The base I use that Kitamura recommended is a plinth of crushed stoned which is highly compressed in a torsion box. I also run the belt on the same plane as the bearing point.
I think no suspension is a key to the design as well.
|
Dear Mosin, dear Lewm, dear In_shore, while I myself are quite an admirer of the Micro Seiki skeleton turntables (RX-1500 g-versions, RX-3000, RX-5000 and SX-8000 in particular), I nevertheless understand the initial "cold welcome" it received from HP and others back in the early 1980ies in the US.
Many reviewers back then favored the LP12 and an unsuspended MS with an untreated platter is certainly sound-wise not to everybody's liking (it is not to mine ...).
The bell-shape of the Micro Seiki's platter (each of the above safe for the SX-8000 w/stainless steel platter and glued glass platter underneath for the air bearing) is certainly not the best possible. Have a look at the photos of Syntax' RX-5000 to get an impression what I mean. A RX-5000 with solid platter on top of it's stock platter is a completely different beast and gives a shocking improve to the MS's sound performance.
What is needed further to really explore the possibilities of the Micro Seiki is a good suspension.
Use a Vibraplane (Kinetic Systems) or Minus-K with additional load and you will explore an all new sonic experience with the Micro Seiki.
Micro Seiki itself realized it late in it's history and the SX-8000 II came with a floating pad (at least an attempt in the right direction).
As it stands, a stock RX-1500G, RX-3000, RX-5000 or SX-8000 is a turntable with incredibly built quality and some real smart ideas topped with a time-less form-follows-function design.
To really show off it's sonic possibilities however a few points (suspension, platter) need to be addressed carefully.
In stock condition it is sonically only 60% of what is possible.
Cheers,
D.
P.S. to put the principle of inertia w/ string/thread drive to perfect function is another topic. It works - and when it does it is really stunning. But it is too often misunderstood and not applied correctly. |
"Does anyone know what is so special about the big M-S turntables, apart from their obvious build quality, which can after all be matched by several of today's high end belt drive turntables?"
Hi Lew,
In my opinion, the string drive, combined with high mass and speed control, is key to the performance of those turntables. The string is a limited, or more properly described as a calculated, slip. A typical belt drive has inherent belt creep that is difficult to overcome, so it is typically less accurate overall. That means a string drive is easier to control for accuracy, and Micro Seiki made a competent controller for that task. Then, the mass does its job with inertia and resonance control. All that makes for a very good turntable, and the other features are lesser in importance, but because of their precision play an important role.
Caveat: Note my use of "in my opinion" and "typically" in this post. I have heard some exceedingly good belt drives that are more traditional in their construction. The Fairchild 750 is one example, but there are others. |
Nandric Being born in the new world to a German mother and Scottish father the influence of both cultures I guess made me this way, no harm intended at all and yes we arein full agreement.
Mark |
In_shore, In some countrys you need to tell in advance that
you intend to tell a joke. Then depending on their upbringing (aka politeness) thy should laugh. I love jokes
so I am very sorry to have missed the point. But we agree
about those ''old TT's'' I think.
Regards, |
Nandric, Please don't take me wrong,my last added paragraph is laced with sarcasm.
Mark |
Does anyone know what is so special about the big M-S turntables, apart from their obvious build quality, which can after all be matched by several of today's high end belt drive turntables? They seem to use an inverted bearing; is there anything special about the materials used in the bearing? How is the bearing lubricated? The motor assembly seems quite large but probably in part due to the incorporation of an elecronic drive system. The belt? I know a guy who used to sell M-S in the 80s and 90s. He thinks of them as "good" but not mind-blowing. I don't necessarily take his opinion as gospel. I am interested to learn more. |
In_shore, I know that I am entering some kind of an 'minefield' but the crafmanship needed to produce those
platters and bearings may be lost meanwhile so the question
is if the CNC lathes can compensate for this loss. I have
difficulty to believe that all of those admireres of Micro
5000, 8000, etc. are daydreamers.
Regards, |
Dear all,
Golden Club member of the month - sure, we will reserve a special corner... The Micro 8000 seems to be a bit superior due to it's many advantages regarding the usage of different arms and modern cartridges.
On the EMT 927 you may use an EMT 997 ( vintage vesion, maybe best with an EMT JSD 6 cart) or an vintage Stereo Ortofon tonearm.
As the "Tondosen" are already on the market since 45 years - of course with improvements in the last years - it is still difficult to mount a modern low impedance but heavy cart on the Ortofon RMA 309 for instance. At the weekend I succeded soldering a A-90 cart into an EMT J-shell with the square EMT-connection. Maybe I am the first trying this. The result is very promising and shows that the EMT table is a grand champion. I played a very good pressing of "Rumours" and found it is worth "Going Your Own Way" . The sound is deeper, stronger and really more powerful than with the more on the musical side playing TSD's. BTW the 45 rpm Rumours repressing of 2009 is a bit more on the bright side.
Hans in the Netherland is doing a real good job, also providing vintage parts for the EMT connoisseur.
Best & Fun Only - Thuchan |
Thuchan, and maybe put out a yearly calendar with monthly pics featuring a different Golden Club member in a speedo.... NOT!! :) |
Micro Seiki received a cool welcome over here in North America specifically of the RX 5000 debut with a brief negative comment in the Absolute Sound magazine then year's later by Art Dudley of Stereophile.
For the mostpart from what I can gather flipping through vintage TAS, Stereophile including other not so well known audio magazines from the 1970s and 80s Micro Seiki's entire product line were largely ignored along with EMT including some of the sought after now vintage tone arms and cartridges.
Mark
Today with audio manufactures and reviews the sale's pitch revolves around superior material ,superior machining ,innovative idea's and design concepts that eclipse anything from past product's. |
In_Shore and Logenn, you are both right - and Audiogon is a good place to exchange ideas. Maybe when I retire which is a good 10 years or more ahead I will start a Vintage Online platform. We should provide free access but also keep a golden club corner - for the most vintage looking guys among us :-)
Best & Fun Only |
There was a (Japanese?) review of 10(?) 'big guns' in
which EMT 927 got the first price.
Suprise somehow stimulate our memory. That is , I assume, why I rembember.
To compensate for such a 'poor' info I will add two
references:
www.janvanvliet.nl (the Dutch specialist for EMT );
Deutsche Perfektion ( Enjoy the music, March 2002).
Regards, |
Thuchan- In shore is exactly right.
Reviewing a product that is not currently being marketed or readily available does not serve the industry's best interest, which is to make a market for products currently being manufactured.
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with this approach as most people want to be able to buy a new item whose performance is reviewed.
As for starting a magazine exclusively dedicated to vintage audio, that would be great fun, but a lot of work for a small market.
With this forum Audiogon is providing a vehicle for all of us to share our findings, so in essence we have a venue to review our current experiences with all HiFi gear. |
Thuchan
I maybe wrong but even during the time of these tables production few if any were reviewed here in North America let alone even a brief mention of their existence.
Articles on vintage equiptment it's likely any reviewer today that wanted to write favorable comparison's to the best of today's line up would simply be refused by the editor.
There is no saleable product other then some nostalgic article of some long gone forgotten out of production item.
Eckert your idea for a vintage item magazine I'm sure would be a popular one.
Similar to vintage knob perhaps except with select World wide contributors,time line history data of outstanding components, articles and pictures galore.
Finally, maybe think about NOT having a members blog.
Mark
|
Logenn, you're right. It' s about the audio magazines which are not focused on vintage items, maybe with the exception of Sterophile's Art Dudley but even not Mike Fremer. They not necessarily need to test vintage equipment but could refer to it's sonic quality, especially with turntables, tonearms and carts. This is unfortunately missing but...
maybe it's time to start a vintage magazine, or is there one?
best & fun only - Thuchan |
Thuchan- I believe the group marketing the EMT products are very professional and dedicated to quality. I cannot speak for the sales in the USA, but perhaps the reason they are not as popular as in Europe or Asia has more to due with buying habits and audio magazine influences.
I am only speculating, but until recently, the audio magazines set the stage with reviews of new more mainstream products, and EMT is a niche player at this time. |
Regarding cables using with the EMT R80 I started to run it with professionell Balanced Cables which is quite good. Nevertheless small improvements are possible if one is using a special silver cable between the phono pre and the pre - even over 5 meters.
best & fun only - Thuchan |
Someone told me in the US EMT products are not very well known and not marketed very well. Is that true? Of course the turntables are not build anymore but carts, phono stages etc. are still being produced and sold.
best & fun only - Thuchan |
Thanks Logenn & Isochronism,
just remember it all started with one turntable, a Micro Seiki SX 8000 II. some 16 years ago, with one tonearm - a Max 237. And of course in a small room. When I put the volume up my wife (as maybe the most of our partners) claimed she liked my music but not in her room...
So the idea started to go deeper and deeper... and finally ended up in my own listening room assembling some humble music reproduction instruments. Now I am comparing the Micros with the EMT and every evening I do explore some more insights.
best & fun only - Thuchan |
Thuchan, you must be in a glorified state. |
Eckert- It seems like everything in audio carries at premium if it is a little special.
In my experience with the Technics, both the Mk II and III, the biggest gains in performance were realized with the right plinth. I believe the arm board alone I am using for the Mk III is 3 pound of panzerholst, which is mounted to a brass rail system attached to an interior wood section...the devil is truly in the details.
I would think the Wavacs are loving the new speaker system. But this is a dramatic shift for you to transition from the big Wilsons to a custom horn system. Typically the two concepts are mutually exclusive. It seems that in your case, you were able to keep what you liked about the Wilsons, and add the virtues of a fine horn loaded system.
|
Louis - you are right, but I had a very special base, especially designed by the German branch of Loricraft. And it sounded well, yes no doubt. But I also believe that Panzerholz or slate might be more appropriate.
I just did an experiment with a Technics SP 10 MK II and a nice but not very very special wooden plinth. It is a good sounding machine, nevertheless not exactely reaching my demands. Maybe it is different with a MK III in a plinth of Albert or Dobbins. But the prices for a good combo are getting insane regarding how much this Pro-series went in earlier times. Don`t you think so?
Thanks for your compliments. I am pretty happy now having had the courage to start my loudspeaker project. The result is just overwhelming. I now have the right partners for my WAVACs. What a difference to the Wilsons.
Best & Fun Only - Thuchan |
Eckert-The secret with the Garrard is the base. The stock 501 was sourced from Loricraft with a very mediocre base, which robbed dynamics. In a proper Panzerholst or slate foundation, north of 70 lbs, you might have a different opinion of the 501 or even the 301 for that matter.
Since I just acquired a RX 5000, I am returning to belt drives after a two year departure from the Walker. I am eager to see how the Micro compares to my current Technics sp 10 Mk III and Garrard 301, both in Porterhouse Panzerholst bases.
Congratulations on your new speakers.
Louis |
Radicalsteve, I see you are also looking for the best possible solutions. Yes indeed I also went into the idler story when owning a Garrard 501 TR which is a fine piece of turntable building. In the end I was attracted only for a short time maybe because I had the chance to compare at home.
There are not many well preserved & maintained great idlers out there. Most of them, also the rebuild ones (in and without a new plinth) convince at a first glance.
The big Micros are a class of its own. I doubt that there are many new TTs which can rival the Micro Seikis. It was Japanese Machine Building at
its best. The big EMTs are a serious contender. Especially when connected with good silver cables.
best & fun only - Thuchan |
Thuchan, thanks for your observations.
I have bee,n momentarily seduced by idler and DD drives, but in the end the SX-8000 trumps them all for air, space between the notes and an overall vivacity.
I went down a "dark path" for a couple of years on various platter mat combinations on the Micro and the ultimate truth came back to the bare stainless SX-8000 platter with an ST_10 weight. (Mine has the vacuum hold down, which I never use, but there those two rubber gaskets on the platter which might act as a partial interface).
Best
Steve |
Dear all, I promised to report about my testing between the Micro and the EMT when I had finally implemented my horn system. Now having used the EMT JPA 66 as the phono pre for both tables, going directly to the WAVAC amps - no other circuits in betweeen- I had a pretty good bases for a comparison. Of course due to the arms (Ortofon RMA 309 vs FR 66s) I have a built in difference also if I use the same cartdrige - an EMT JSD 6 (Jubilee anniversary edition, MC, around 2500 Dollar) on both arms thanks to an EMT/ SME adaptor on the FR-66s. I also tried a vintage Ortofon MC from the 50ies on both arms using an Ortofon adaptor on the FR-66s.
The Micro 8000 shows a clearer, more open soundstage, mid range and hights are transported in an excellent way. It is the ultimate reproducing
machine for RIAA and RIAA+ records. The EMT R80 on the other hand is the more musical machine especially with pre 1957 stereo and mono cuts. I usally fell easily in a relaxing mood enjoying the EMT all solution.
So which is the better table? Hard to say. On the Micro you may run three
or four different arms, on the EMT you are able to change carts easily
-especially the wonderful new EMT-Studiotechnik carts. Changing from the Ortofon arm with its old internal cabelling to an EMT 997 tonearm might change the results again. Or maybe going for a new Ikeda silver wiring in the Ortofon arm. Don't know at the moment. At least you may get happy with one of the two tables - this for sure.
I was planning to leave the EMT R80 with the EMT JPA66 phono stage (pre amp). I finally ended up using the Micro 8000 with the JPA66. This is
a great combination with lots of possibilities on reproducing fine records. |
Dear Nandric,
many thanks, do you see the TD 2002 "flying" due to its embedment into acryl? some people say I am a very slim person but I have to find those people... nevertheless you cannot easily identify the free zones on this image because it was shot from 8 meters distance. You are able operating all units by walking around even from behind the system. |
Dear Thuchan, I was confused with the TAD drivers because they all looked to me as HF drivers but the result is even
estheticaly fantastic. I hope that the Bavarian Voice sound
as they look. BTW you must be slender as well as supple to
get 'around' all those beautys.
Regards, |
here is some noise. I made it finally, took me 6 months: the Bavarian Voice has seen it`s light... |
Dear Dertonarm, 'a divine voice' is tribute to your romantic nature but I meant with this Darwian capability
to 'ignore noise' some kind of explanation for the fact
that we are able to enjoy records .
Regards, |
Dear Nandric, indeed - essential in our modern times and as such a result of evolution and the need to evolve to survive. An bengal phrase says that it is only the most quiet moments that one can hear a divine voice. As there are no more truly quiet moments in our days none such voice can find an ear.
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Dertonarm, I am not sure if our ears are capable of
ignoring this 'noise' or our psychology? Anyway, avoiding Freud , such kind of of mechanism must have some Darwian fundation.
Regards, |
Sounds a bit like back in 1982 when the introduction of the CD was hailed as the perfect sound forever ......
Time went by.
As always.
BTW - did anybody ever noticed, that life itself is full of "noise" and artificial by-products, which most of the time somehow fail to add to the enjoyment ?
Cheers,
D. |
