My God!
T_bone are you OK?
Earthquake & TSUNAMI the freakiest nightmare
T_bone are you OK?
Earthquake & TSUNAMI the freakiest nightmare
171 responses Add your response
Bourse, I am inspired for my Horn design not by the guys your are mentioning. Especially the crossover will be something very very special. I have tested the TAD drivers against others, we do some small modifications too. I will use two additional Subs which can be very powerful and do match the design. They are carrying French drivers. will report about my experiences on my page. we always believe we are living in a non global world, at least some people in Europe who are looking to get their freedom in small protected retreats in the hills or at the sea side not really caring about the rest of the world. We are definitely not. Japan is not that far as many think, - when it comes to a nuclear desaster, we all hope it will not happen, we might be all affected. |
Dear T_bone, dear Geoch, first - great to hear you are o.k. Travis. A dreadful and really very sad catastrophe. Showing us once again how dwarf we really are.... T_bone is right - the WE-8000 is the only SAEC tonearm where the offset of the headshell is correct. The SAEC 506/30 was designed to be used with 10" and singles only. It's geometry does reflect it. Out of curiosity I have calculated a different alignment for the 506/30 which does suit 12" records MUCH better ( T_bone it is included in your UNI-Pro set for free !!). Cheers, D. |
Dear Bourse, ..but all roads lead to 5 way horns. :)..- IMHO neither a priori nor in ultimo ratio. Of course it is tempting to address each frequency band with an ideal (on first sight ...) suited driver, but it is always the "team" which produces the results. Every 4+ way horn (or any other driver principle) system I have heard and seen so far (and it were many ...) - regardless the price tag - produced more problems than it solved. One is easily tempted to address the requirements of a top class horn system with an overextended material battle. It is a common yet often overlooked trap. The "lucky" owners weren't aware of it most of the time, but each x-over point less is certainly an asset to the performance. And the computer x-overs available today are no real cure either. There are way enough great horn drivers out there - be it pro audio or "elusive" ( applying to the price tag mainly ...) audiophile drivers - which do cover a large band perfectly (if enough attention to detail is applied (terminals, inner wire, bug nets etc.)). The day I see a 5 way horn system where all other aspects of performance are already addressed and the 4th and 5th way still are really a logical consequence has not yet seen light. Cheers, D. |
No one claims that Syntax, but I feel it is not fair to delude our self that a scarce, expensive to buy, expensive to maintain, expensive to repair & so much restricted to arm/cart choises gigantic TT, is the end and all of our troubles in choosing our source. It can solve most of them concerning the sound, but may create some serious others, in the shadow of them, we can not enjoy the music any more. |
I am always fascinated from technical solutions and an idler drive is THE best (by far) way to transform any vibration and smearing from motor to the bearing and platter. These distortions are called Rhythm (well, the" Subway below Kingsway Hall" in every record), the loss of High frequency information is a result in better Bass (like a compressed MP3 file to the midrange). Most record stations replaced those units as fast as possible. Personally I think, the audiophile world waited for them. Here is a version with an updated motor. PRAT counts. |
So EMT leads to many things... Agree Dertonarm "but each x-over point less is certainly an asset to the performance" and we seek for that "perfect" driver that will span as many octaves as possible. But nothing new "Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem" or "Entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity". One has to go from two way to three then to four and even five to go back to 4 then 3 then 2....otherwise you miss what is missing...! Other said in better words "Perfection is attained, not when no more can be added, but when no more can be removed" The EMTs are "simple" TTs" well made. You have no options, arms, phonos, cartridges (short of diamond/saphire size/profile)....well you can "play" but then best use another TT? EMTs are not about playing with the TT but playing the music accepting the TT limits whilst enjoying its qualities. All fun. |
this is a very good manual Soundlistening and it will me guiding in the next two weeks building up the horn system in my room. I am pretty sure it will change everything and it already did - because at the moment I am not able listening to my EMT. fixing the cross-over points will be a never ending story I guess, hopefully not. It is my first experience into that kind of "tuning" and I am thankful to have some experienced friends at hand... |
Dear Thuchan, I assume that everyone would love to build his own 'dream speakers'. Anyway I would. My curiosity is about the drivers. I know that A Capella uses some midd-dome for the range of +/-300- 50000 Hz. Then the Usher horn uses the TAD coaxial driver (version Pioneer) for midd/high in a three way system. If I understand you well you are using the TAD coaxial beryllium driver(?). If so I am not able to understand the need for a 5 way system. Ie even in the case of an extra midd/bass one should think that a 4 way will be adequate. You must have some specific reasons for your choice. Will you be so kind to explain? Regards,n |
Dear Nandric, I have a 4 way horn system. I will use some additional subs which I can use for Stereo support as well as for 7.1 surround. The TAD drivers are TD-4001, TD-2002 and Exclusive ET-703. The horn is a very special construction I will show when the system is completely built up - approx. end of next week. You are right a 4way is absolutely adequate. Just for fun I have added the small amounts I have paid for the drivers only - then the other material, the work and did mulitly by 6 -which is the usual sales price of speakers- Unbelievable! |
Thuchan nailed it. "If you ever had a chance to look into the motor design of a big Studer Tape machine or at the big EMTs you know what motor design could be at its best. This is how professionals do it. Maybe we are used to deal a little to much with the consumer audio works..." The Studer uses a proprietary 3-phase eddy current motor with an external rotor. This, as Papst would call it, is an "Aussenlaufer", or electric flywheel motor. The Studer is particularly low torque, but is very stable and quiet. Neumann used similar designs in their studio equipment, except those were significantly more powerful, but noisier. The Neumann motors are the big brothers to the ones we find in Empire and Rek-O-Kut turntables, and go a long way to explain why people continue to be enamored with those cheap vintage turntables. EMT used a variety of motors, but all were large in comparison to most modern turntables, and some followed suite with the solutions offered by Studer and Papst. The bottomline, in my opinion, is that many of today's makers of turntables sacrifice a bit of performance for assured motor silence and ease of construction. Many users expect the more positive aspects of their decision, but listeners of the old high performance machines don't put stethoscopes to the plinths. They tend to spend more of their time listening to music and tapping their feet. Caveat: Regardless of the findings of the old reputable manufacturers, (and the opinions of Thuchan and me) there are smaller, less powerful turntables that deliver music very, very well. Audio is filled with flavors, you know. . |
Dear Nandric, indeed - essential in our modern times and as such a result of evolution and the need to evolve to survive. An bengal phrase says that it is only the most quiet moments that one can hear a divine voice. As there are no more truly quiet moments in our days none such voice can find an ear. Cheers, D. |
Dear Nandric, many thanks, do you see the TD 2002 "flying" due to its embedment into acryl? some people say I am a very slim person but I have to find those people... nevertheless you cannot easily identify the free zones on this image because it was shot from 8 meters distance. You are able operating all units by walking around even from behind the system. |
Dear all, I promised to report about my testing between the Micro and the EMT when I had finally implemented my horn system. Now having used the EMT JPA 66 as the phono pre for both tables, going directly to the WAVAC amps - no other circuits in betweeen- I had a pretty good bases for a comparison. Of course due to the arms (Ortofon RMA 309 vs FR 66s) I have a built in difference also if I use the same cartdrige - an EMT JSD 6 (Jubilee anniversary edition, MC, around 2500 Dollar) on both arms thanks to an EMT/ SME adaptor on the FR-66s. I also tried a vintage Ortofon MC from the 50ies on both arms using an Ortofon adaptor on the FR-66s. The Micro 8000 shows a clearer, more open soundstage, mid range and hights are transported in an excellent way. It is the ultimate reproducing machine for RIAA and RIAA+ records. The EMT R80 on the other hand is the more musical machine especially with pre 1957 stereo and mono cuts. I usally fell easily in a relaxing mood enjoying the EMT all solution. So which is the better table? Hard to say. On the Micro you may run three or four different arms, on the EMT you are able to change carts easily -especially the wonderful new EMT-Studiotechnik carts. Changing from the Ortofon arm with its old internal cabelling to an EMT 997 tonearm might change the results again. Or maybe going for a new Ikeda silver wiring in the Ortofon arm. Don't know at the moment. At least you may get happy with one of the two tables - this for sure. I was planning to leave the EMT R80 with the EMT JPA66 phono stage (pre amp). I finally ended up using the Micro 8000 with the JPA66. This is a great combination with lots of possibilities on reproducing fine records. |
Thuchan, thanks for your observations. I have bee,n momentarily seduced by idler and DD drives, but in the end the SX-8000 trumps them all for air, space between the notes and an overall vivacity. I went down a "dark path" for a couple of years on various platter mat combinations on the Micro and the ultimate truth came back to the bare stainless SX-8000 platter with an ST_10 weight. (Mine has the vacuum hold down, which I never use, but there those two rubber gaskets on the platter which might act as a partial interface). Best Steve |
Radicalsteve, I see you are also looking for the best possible solutions. Yes indeed I also went into the idler story when owning a Garrard 501 TR which is a fine piece of turntable building. In the end I was attracted only for a short time maybe because I had the chance to compare at home. There are not many well preserved & maintained great idlers out there. Most of them, also the rebuild ones (in and without a new plinth) convince at a first glance. The big Micros are a class of its own. I doubt that there are many new TTs which can rival the Micro Seikis. It was Japanese Machine Building at its best. The big EMTs are a serious contender. Especially when connected with good silver cables. best & fun only - Thuchan |
Eckert-The secret with the Garrard is the base. The stock 501 was sourced from Loricraft with a very mediocre base, which robbed dynamics. In a proper Panzerholst or slate foundation, north of 70 lbs, you might have a different opinion of the 501 or even the 301 for that matter. Since I just acquired a RX 5000, I am returning to belt drives after a two year departure from the Walker. I am eager to see how the Micro compares to my current Technics sp 10 Mk III and Garrard 301, both in Porterhouse Panzerholst bases. Congratulations on your new speakers. Louis |
Louis - you are right, but I had a very special base, especially designed by the German branch of Loricraft. And it sounded well, yes no doubt. But I also believe that Panzerholz or slate might be more appropriate. I just did an experiment with a Technics SP 10 MK II and a nice but not very very special wooden plinth. It is a good sounding machine, nevertheless not exactely reaching my demands. Maybe it is different with a MK III in a plinth of Albert or Dobbins. But the prices for a good combo are getting insane regarding how much this Pro-series went in earlier times. Don`t you think so? Thanks for your compliments. I am pretty happy now having had the courage to start my loudspeaker project. The result is just overwhelming. I now have the right partners for my WAVACs. What a difference to the Wilsons. Best & Fun Only - Thuchan |
Eckert- It seems like everything in audio carries at premium if it is a little special. In my experience with the Technics, both the Mk II and III, the biggest gains in performance were realized with the right plinth. I believe the arm board alone I am using for the Mk III is 3 pound of panzerholst, which is mounted to a brass rail system attached to an interior wood section...the devil is truly in the details. I would think the Wavacs are loving the new speaker system. But this is a dramatic shift for you to transition from the big Wilsons to a custom horn system. Typically the two concepts are mutually exclusive. It seems that in your case, you were able to keep what you liked about the Wilsons, and add the virtues of a fine horn loaded system. |
Thanks Logenn & Isochronism, just remember it all started with one turntable, a Micro Seiki SX 8000 II. some 16 years ago, with one tonearm - a Max 237. And of course in a small room. When I put the volume up my wife (as maybe the most of our partners) claimed she liked my music but not in her room... So the idea started to go deeper and deeper... and finally ended up in my own listening room assembling some humble music reproduction instruments. Now I am comparing the Micros with the EMT and every evening I do explore some more insights. best & fun only - Thuchan |
Thuchan- I believe the group marketing the EMT products are very professional and dedicated to quality. I cannot speak for the sales in the USA, but perhaps the reason they are not as popular as in Europe or Asia has more to due with buying habits and audio magazine influences. I am only speculating, but until recently, the audio magazines set the stage with reviews of new more mainstream products, and EMT is a niche player at this time. |
Logenn, you're right. It' s about the audio magazines which are not focused on vintage items, maybe with the exception of Sterophile's Art Dudley but even not Mike Fremer. They not necessarily need to test vintage equipment but could refer to it's sonic quality, especially with turntables, tonearms and carts. This is unfortunately missing but... maybe it's time to start a vintage magazine, or is there one? best & fun only - Thuchan |
Thuchan I maybe wrong but even during the time of these tables production few if any were reviewed here in North America let alone even a brief mention of their existence. Articles on vintage equiptment it's likely any reviewer today that wanted to write favorable comparison's to the best of today's line up would simply be refused by the editor. There is no saleable product other then some nostalgic article of some long gone forgotten out of production item. Eckert your idea for a vintage item magazine I'm sure would be a popular one. Similar to vintage knob perhaps except with select World wide contributors,time line history data of outstanding components, articles and pictures galore. Finally, maybe think about NOT having a members blog. Mark |
Thuchan- In shore is exactly right. Reviewing a product that is not currently being marketed or readily available does not serve the industry's best interest, which is to make a market for products currently being manufactured. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with this approach as most people want to be able to buy a new item whose performance is reviewed. As for starting a magazine exclusively dedicated to vintage audio, that would be great fun, but a lot of work for a small market. With this forum Audiogon is providing a vehicle for all of us to share our findings, so in essence we have a venue to review our current experiences with all HiFi gear. |
There was a (Japanese?) review of 10(?) 'big guns' in which EMT 927 got the first price. Suprise somehow stimulate our memory. That is , I assume, why I rembember. To compensate for such a 'poor' info I will add two references: www.janvanvliet.nl (the Dutch specialist for EMT ); Deutsche Perfektion ( Enjoy the music, March 2002). Regards, |
In_Shore and Logenn, you are both right - and Audiogon is a good place to exchange ideas. Maybe when I retire which is a good 10 years or more ahead I will start a Vintage Online platform. We should provide free access but also keep a golden club corner - for the most vintage looking guys among us :-) Best & Fun Only |
Micro Seiki received a cool welcome over here in North America specifically of the RX 5000 debut with a brief negative comment in the Absolute Sound magazine then year's later by Art Dudley of Stereophile. For the mostpart from what I can gather flipping through vintage TAS, Stereophile including other not so well known audio magazines from the 1970s and 80s Micro Seiki's entire product line were largely ignored along with EMT including some of the sought after now vintage tone arms and cartridges. Mark Today with audio manufactures and reviews the sale's pitch revolves around superior material ,superior machining ,innovative idea's and design concepts that eclipse anything from past product's. |
Dear all, Golden Club member of the month - sure, we will reserve a special corner... The Micro 8000 seems to be a bit superior due to it's many advantages regarding the usage of different arms and modern cartridges. On the EMT 927 you may use an EMT 997 ( vintage vesion, maybe best with an EMT JSD 6 cart) or an vintage Stereo Ortofon tonearm. As the "Tondosen" are already on the market since 45 years - of course with improvements in the last years - it is still difficult to mount a modern low impedance but heavy cart on the Ortofon RMA 309 for instance. At the weekend I succeded soldering a A-90 cart into an EMT J-shell with the square EMT-connection. Maybe I am the first trying this. The result is very promising and shows that the EMT table is a grand champion. I played a very good pressing of "Rumours" and found it is worth "Going Your Own Way" . The sound is deeper, stronger and really more powerful than with the more on the musical side playing TSD's. BTW the 45 rpm Rumours repressing of 2009 is a bit more on the bright side. Hans in the Netherland is doing a real good job, also providing vintage parts for the EMT connoisseur. Best & Fun Only - Thuchan |
In_shore, I know that I am entering some kind of an 'minefield' but the crafmanship needed to produce those platters and bearings may be lost meanwhile so the question is if the CNC lathes can compensate for this loss. I have difficulty to believe that all of those admireres of Micro 5000, 8000, etc. are daydreamers. Regards, |
Does anyone know what is so special about the big M-S turntables, apart from their obvious build quality, which can after all be matched by several of today's high end belt drive turntables? They seem to use an inverted bearing; is there anything special about the materials used in the bearing? How is the bearing lubricated? The motor assembly seems quite large but probably in part due to the incorporation of an elecronic drive system. The belt? I know a guy who used to sell M-S in the 80s and 90s. He thinks of them as "good" but not mind-blowing. I don't necessarily take his opinion as gospel. I am interested to learn more. |
