EMT 927 vs. Micro Seiki 5000 or 8000 - different?

Thuchan,
Not many visitors here can even get close to any single source that your room hosts. You have trained yorself to the best, experiencing pieces that are from dreams. Therefore maybe not easy to join views in this arena? We are both fortunate enough to expose resource to forge our own views based on our precious ears and needs. To jump into the past with no support from glossy magazines or buring forum posts is an act of faith, congratulations! Few R80's or 927's populate rooms on this planet. Very few of the fortunate owners browse these alleys looking for answers. Perhaps they remain focused on the primary and only true source, the recording.

For servicing EMT's in the US I would contact Dusch directly, he will be of assistance http://www.emt-profi.de/welcome.htm

But in reality look at these PDF's http://www.hans-fabritius.de/en/emt.html at the bottom of the page and it gives the service to be performed.

In reality the EMTs are simple and the schematics are readily available. Best is service by Dusch but then things can be done by competant technicians.

In regards to the 930 vs the 927 I would say that they are in different ballgames, I auduitioned the 927 vs the 930 very briefly in Italy and that was enough to hear a significant difference (both had the 139st). The 930 has less weight, presence an PRAT.

The 930 is without doubt good so long as you get it with the 139st not the 155st. Therefore care must be taken on getting one that has the correct PS. Voltages for the tube phonos are not the same as the later SS phono stages. Van Vliet in Netherlands does make a PS for the 139 phono ic case you do not have one, no idea if it is good.

Even if Thuchan and I disagree (we also agree on many things) my view is that any EMT should be considered as a "plug and play" with its phonostage, Thuchan is using the TT part of his R80.

I have done a/b between the 927 direct to Kondo phono stage and ANJ amps etc....horns....vs the 927 and its 139st (mine is original fully serviced by Dusch and kitted with following serial numbered Telefunkens), well it is quite amazing to see (hear!) how this technology from >50years ago performs.

I also have the SX8000 with FR66s and FR7 cartridge, the a/b SX8000 FR66S:FR7 into Kondo phono vs 927 with 139 is on the agenda in the next weeks.

I lived with my 927 for sometime then switched back to the SX8000, missed the 927. Now back on the 927 I do not miss the SX8000 what doe that tell me?

All fun!

Thuchan,

Have you tried the 927 with the plexiglass-plate? That does decrease the weight. Some people say that glass on platters is "wrong" but the studio turntables EMT 927 were delivered for the disc-recording industry as a measurement studio turntable the EMT 927 D equipped with a glass-plate instead of a plexiglass-plate.

When you tap on the plexiglass-plate it is not that solid, a bit flimsy to be honest. Okay it offers the added brake, but know needs that at home??? The total mass of the platter is not that high even with the glass platter plate, much less that our cherished SX8000’s. I have from good sources learned that the 1st R80’s platter was heavier, that the 927’s were even less than the R80 and the last 927’s even less.

I would like to talk about a few other aspects that are, from my modest perspective, important.

1) The torque of the motor: This is one 3-phase workhorse and when you attempt to slow the platter with your hand you see how strong the drive is. Do this on a belt drive and.....you know! When done on a Garrard you can slow it quite easy, and other idler drives are in same category. The 927 has a huge torque and power and as such does offer a great control on rotation. Once documented you realize that the 927 offers rotational stability that is amazing, in fact far greater that that of the TT used for the record making!

2) Bearings of the idler mechanism: Look at those bearings and levers...this offers very solid and stable basis for the power and stability of the motor to get to the platter

3) Distance of idler from stylus: Well the 927 was made for 16” records but we only use them on 12” or 10” (those good mono ones!) and this offers another advantage; the stylus is further away from mechanical contact point of the idler and the inside of the platter.

4) Chassis construction: The cast aluminium is a very solid and high mass base for the tone arm. The fact that the motor is mounted on isolation supports prevents it from transmitting energy to the tone arm. The motor is overpowered; the variations in drag generated in the groves do not strain the motor and introduce the potential adverse consequences.

5) The bearing: It is large diameter and very long offering an extremely stable foundation. Apparently the next best thing is a Neumann lathe that the “ultra hard core” analogue boys use as a TT, your next step?

But to conclude: All of this means nothing in reality. The 927 sounds spot on. Is that objective or subjective? We always attempt to come to rational answers to understand why, I offered some above. The rarity of the 927 (and even more so the R80) make these hard to come by. Many have not been serviced and show the toil of time, I have seen quite a few of those! Thuchan, we both went for fully serviced and as per factory specification machines that work as they were designed, this is the only way to go and it requires a particular dedication. You know that I jumped into the "927" following advice from around the world and from one person in particular with whom I share taste in music, “but” I needed to experience it in my setting and to my agenda. I am glad that at this stage we agree; that you considered that my ears were a valid enough reason for you to jump onboard...

And "YES" I am looking forward to engaging my ears with your R80 & Lamm etc……Maybe we will have another pair of EMTied ears with us?

The Kondo testing is on the agenda, work for the time being guess this hobby needs funding!

All fun!

I would be cautious when securing any EMT R80 or 927. the guys who have them tend to hold onto them....so those out there are hard to come by or there is a reason attached.

The last ebay ones were in very bad condition. Remember that the 927 has the dedicated PS for the EMT 139st Phono stage (it must have that...). Many capacitors in these parts and yes they can be upto 60 years old so stable DC to the all important phono cannot be guarenteed let alone the phonos stage equalizing circuits (3 in all as you can choose).

Two ways in my view: get a low priced one and have it serviced by Dusch or get a serviced one. FYI I have taken both routes and in all honesty they come out to approx the same amount. Another alternative is the Thuchan route taking on the TT part and not using the phono. Then Van Vliet makes the replica EMT 139st that I have heard and you would be hard pressed to tell any difference with an original that I have. VV also does a PS for it so this is an alternative to house in a 927 or R80 TT base.

Many routes I guess....but it will cost serious money to jump onboard. But what is serious? Think the price of a good familly car.....or for Europe verging towards 2 X the average annual salary. Add to that the increased buying of records....the "necessary" cartridges TSD15, TMD25 and for the hardcore 78ers one of the 65 range....

In my books? Best thing I ever did and wished I had done it earlier.

All fun!

Hi Bourse,
Yes we are meeting here...going from east to west! How are the French lessons going? May need to learn German myself as all this hammertone stuff is well documented! Need to hear the 5 way YL/AN horned system....
Take care

Geoch,
Well at one time I played a/b between Micro Seiki SX8000 and fully serviced well plinthed (slate) good armed (FR66s or Davinci Grandezza) finely tipped Garrard 301. Some advised me "now way" oh are you crazy, never....well it was close for me. Oh not from the "high end" perspective on no the MS shinned in that arena...perfect reproduction? No idea really. The only thing is that the 301 got me to listen to more records. The MS was slanted towards lets analyse the record. Do not get me wrong the MX SX8000 is a fantastic TT by all means and made for very serious analogue playing. In the end the MS had me overall. I notwithstanding missed the "enjoy" factor of the 301. On soprano vocals the MS had that "inner" image that the 301 missed. The 301 misted that side of the interpretation. The 301 does let the " atmosphere" of live jazz come to you in a way that the MS does not, the MS cuts through that into the performance. Can live with a 301 and any good TT so long as I have my records and have access to more of them. We all know of audiophiles “audiophiles” that host “glossy magazine” kit, hoping for deeper pockets, yet own next to no records…. Well the price of any “high end” silver litz cable that adds little vs a “regular” cable can get you one hell of a lot of records. But this is a hobby and I respect all of its facets.

I am not one who can accommodate (or want?) to have more than one TT so I am in single partner category. The MS was that one. Until…I had the opportunity to go to Italy and at that time stepped into a “good” room that has 301/EMT997 & Thomas Schick, EMT 930/EMT/139st and 927/Ortofon/139st at a good place in Italy near to Parma, birth city of Verdi… a museum dedicated to sound reproduction and really worth the visit showing the most ancient and exotic vintage kit to the Ipod. Anyway the 930 betters the 301 whist still having that “idler” sound, the 927 takes it all to another level adding the detail and resolution that the MS has.

For the idler “ears” the 930/139st/b is the “bargain”…Indeed, you can get a fully refurbished one with phono stage for 35/40% of a 927. It will cost less than a Garrard 301/decent plinth/arm and separate phono stage of similar calibre, takes up far less space (if that is of concern), enable “true” mono with the TMD25 and 139st/b setting to mono…and yes you will listen to more records, buy more of them…

Okay if those “idler ears” get to hear the 927 they will tell your brain to find a way to getting one. Oh yes! no choice of arm, no variations on cartridges, no choice of cable (short of the one from 139st to amp or preamp)…so you are stuck? No… simply at the place one should “be” accepting the limits (choice entails that) and enjoying the rest of it!

All fun!

So EMT leads to many things...

Agree Dertonarm "but each x-over point less is certainly an asset to the performance" and we seek for that "perfect" driver that will span as many octaves as possible. But nothing new "Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem" or "Entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity".

One has to go from two way to three then to four and even five to go back to 4 then 3 then 2....otherwise you miss what is missing...! Other said in better words "Perfection is attained, not when no more can be added, but when no more can be removed"

The EMTs are "simple" TTs" well made. You have no options, arms, phonos, cartridges (short of diamond/saphire size/profile)....well you can "play" but then best use another TT?

EMTs are not about playing with the TT but playing the music accepting the TT limits whilst enjoying its qualities.

All fun.