I have been using these ET2's for over 9 years now. I am still figuring them out and learning from them. They can be modified in so many ways. Bruce Thigpen laid down the GENIUS behind this tonearm over 20 years ago. Some of you have owned them for over 20 years !
Tell us your secrets.
New owners – what questions do you have ?
We may even be able to coax Bruce to post here. :^)
There are so many modifications that can be done.
Dressing of the wire with this arm is critical to get optimum sonics along with proper counterweight setup.
Let me start it off.
Please tell us what you have found to be the best wire for the ET-2 tonearm ? One that is pliable/doesn’t crink or curl. Whats the best way of dressing it so it doesn’t impact the arm. Through the spindle - Over the manifold - Below manifold ? What have you come up with ?
Ordered two long I-beams yesterday; single and double spring versions. What a nice man Bruce T is! You may recall from early in the thread my description of my diy balsa wood version of a long I-beam. Worked well, but always had trouble with reliably securing the leaf springs to it. Will keep you all posted.
Congrats on the long I-beams. Let us know what you hear with them.
The VDH Black Beauty SPX is not quite broken in yet but I'm becoming a huge VDH fan. Right out of the box it had a luscious midrange without the lost detail I experienced with the MC-1. The Black Beauty SPX is a large upgrade from the MC-1 Special.
Put on the new long beam, and lose half the weight. I wish real life was this easy. I run an hour a day and can barely stay at my weight. Those evening liquid calories.... take a serious toll.
Hi everyone. I've owned and ET II for about 28 years and have had my ups and downs. I've posted in this forum but it's been years. A quick background. I'm in Greensboro NC, running the ET 2.5 on a modified VPI TNT Jr on a custom critical mass base with custom brass feet. Direct wired. Carbon fiber arm. Jenna air pump in another room. Long I beam, currently double sprung, also have a long single sprung one. Silicon damping. I've recently switched out a Lyra Delos for a Soundsmith Zephyr MIMC. I've had this setup sounding really good, and for a while the new Zephyr was spot on, more like listening to a master tape than an LP. That being said, I switched out the Zephyr to re-assess the Delos and never got the Delos dialed in, and upon re-inserting the Zephyr I can't seem to get back to the sound I had previous. For now I'm really just looking for information on one setup issue - Chris' information on using a feeler guage to set the 4 screws on the manifold. I looked at his virtual system page and couldn't find the specifics. Chris, if you read this, could you point me in the right direction? PS,
I saw a post from a few years ago from vpi about getting the manifold level right. In may case Harry sent me a spacer that went under the armboard FWIW.
Hi Mkiser - (Mark) ? long time since hearing from you. ;^)
Pic 35 on my my virtual system shows how to set the gap with the tonearm not mounted.. You can see on the feeler gauge in the pic, that I have it set quite firm. I also do not find a need to use the VTA much. I aim to keep the manifold inscribed line even with the record.
Here are some comments from Bruce that should help. I had to dig into email archives from 2014.
Chris,
The gap is suggested so that the bearing blocks are parallel to the manifold housing, the gap value is arbitrary. I would not force a bearing block too close to the manifold housing such that the friction to adjust VTA is high, doing so would damage the arc block. The bearing block screw length is the same on all tonearms, 4-40 x 3/4 for the bottom pair and 4 x 40 x 5/8 for the top pair. We no longer sell VTA arc blocks as an individual part. I hope this helps.
brucet
Chris,
My first rule would be to use the short end of the Allen wrench as the lever for torquing any screws on the ET-2. The short lever arm will limit the applied torque. For the two bearing blocks that mesh the pinion to the rack in the arc block we first adjust the blocks so that they are parallel to the manifold housing with a .060 -.090 gap between the bearing block and the back adjacent surfaces on the manifold housing. The friction between the manifold housing and the arc block define the feel of the VTA mechanism lever action. We want this to offer some resistance, but not too much when a VTA adjustment is attempted. Turn the 4/40 x 3/4 bearing block screws so that some friction is encountered when adjusting VTA but not so much that the VTA mechanism locks up. We would not attempt this adjustment with the tonearm installed on a turntable.
The main failures we see with the arc blocks are: 1.The threaded insert on back surface of the arc block is cracked due to over torquing of 8-32 stainless steel button head post mounting screw. 2.The bearing blocks on either side of the arc block which support the pinion gear are over torqued which crushes the pinion into the rack and binds the mechanism, if a VTA change is attempted with over torqued bearing blocks the pinion turns and the rack does not move, stripping the teeth on the rack. - brucet
I've had this setup sounding really good, and for a while the new Zephyr was spot on, more like listening to a master tape than an LP.
Re: Master tapes reference. I still own a Studer and some 15 IPS master tape dubs. When I first brought it home many years ago it was a great reference for me and it still is. Over time, and tweaking, I have my main vinyl rig competing and out performing some of the tapes in my room. The good ones (tape) are just really good, and I also don't have LPs for some of the tapes.
Hi Mkieser! I assume you checked this, but in case not... It's quite easy to upset the lateral balance of the arm while changing cartridges or arm wands. Did you carefully check levelness?I had issues with levelness even when using the VTA adjustment. So my recommandation is to always recheck for levelness after changing the VTA, or touching the VTA adjustment. And I think changing a cartridge or arm wand would apply for the same. Horizontal off-levelness skews the tonality of the cartridge and deteriorates bass quality to a surprising the degree. Another variable for somebody with a good aural memory is the tightness of all used screws and connections.IME lowest possible torque sounds best. I use only as much as to prevent slipping of the connections or the cartridge. Your opinion might vary, but at least play and check these things.
Thanks for the responses. I'm going to revisit my setup yet again this evening and get back. It's a lot to take in. At some point I'll update my virtual system with more recent pics of my turntable. I've made a few tweaks that I haven't seen mentioned in this forum.
BTW it's Mike Kiser. Just jumping in to say that I've posted some turntable and tonearm pictures in my virtual forum. Amp and speakers are in a state of flux, so for now it's just turntable pictures. As long as I'm here I just want to thank you guys for your insights over all the years. I haven't solicited much advice directly but have followed a lot of the threads with interest. Probably the thing I've learned most from this forum is the importance of balance, and the wonderful? world of I beams and leaf springs. FWIW, I'm going to be sending my manifold, spindle and manifold housing back to Bruce soon. There is an air flow imbalance that causes the spindle to push in one direction as I increase pressure. It was pushing out. I flipped the manifold and sure enough it started pushing in as I increased pressure. I contacted Bruce and he told me to send it in for balancing. I'm not sure I've seen anyone else mention this issue, so just wanted to put it out there.
I’m going to be sending my manifold, spindle and manifold housing back to Bruce soon. There is an air flow imbalance that causes the spindle to push in one direction as I increase pressure. It was pushing out. I flipped the manifold and sure enough it started pushing in as I increased pressure.
Mike. This is interesting. My understanding is that the stock 2.0 smaller lighter spindle needs about 3 psi to levitate. The larger heavier lower resonance stock 2.5 spindle, designed for MC carts, needs in the neighborhood of 5-6 psi to do the same thing. This is for Bruce’ stock builds. Then we get into the custom builds that Bruce has done for clients, like myself. He set my 2.5 up for 19 PSI. In discussions with him at the time it was my understanding that this is the PSI limit for the design.
So based on the above, why are you choosing to increase the PSI ? and does the spindle stays balanced, when it is run at the PSI that Bruce set the manifold up for at his shop ?
Just thinking out loud over coffee this morning.
If I were located far from Bruce in Florida, and the (spindle, manifold) were going to be sent to him for maintenance anyway; I would first be tempted to try rebalancing the manifold on my own. As you are using direct shot wiring set it up without the wiring and just the spindle on (Look Mom, no wires ! - hah hah )
So with just the spindle on, turn on the air at the factory set PSI. Do observations. Now bump up the pressure and observe again. Slide out the manifold itself, and adjust the screws on the one side a bit, on the side it it pushes towards. Open them up a bit equally. What happens ? If it gets worse turn them in again and go to the other side and repeat. Again, just something to try, before it goes back to Bruce.
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lots of turntable tweaks in your Audiogon page. I really like the way you have set up the thread/floss on your turntable. Interested in the differences you heard compared to the belt setup.
Hi Chris. I too have a custom 2.5 manifold, set for 12 PSI. I'm sure the fix is to adjust the screws on the manifold to adjust airflow, but there are two issues. First, I'm not sure exactly which screws should be adjusted, and second, for the most part, I can't get an allen wrench into most of the screws. The female allen ends are not uniform, they've been buffed down in several places and an allen wrench just can't get purchase. I've had the manifold out and was only able to turn one screw. I should have taken a picture. Right now, with a dead level table and 12 PSI, the arm has a very pronounced bias inward (was outward until I flipped it). I'm dealing with it in the short term by finding a setting that does work, about 5 PSI right now.
We're getting 6 inches of snow in Greensboro right now, so this is prime listening time, so it will be a while before I send the parts in to Bruce, and there's no way I'm going to try to get it right myself. That being said, I ain't hating what I'm hearing right now. I know it could be better and not just because of the pressure imbalance. I recently purchased a Soundsmith Zephyr MIMC and was using that for the last 10 days or so. It has a master tape quality, no doubt. Resolution, when setup is dead on, is jaw dropping, but in spite of that, I've gone back to my old reliable Delos for now. On my rig, the Delos is not quite as resolving, but is noticeably warmer. Add to the mix that two weeks ago I took delivery on a prototype pair of Vaughn Plasma Signature speakers and I'm still familiarizing myself with them. The Delos is sounding pretty sweet through them, even though the speakers are currently being driven by a Marantz SMS-11 power amp. Not ideal, as the speakers are 96db efficient and were designed for low power SET/ Class A amps. At RMAF they were paired with the top of the line Wavelength amps, and it was something to behold. Sold me :) Jim Jordan of Vaughn has shipped me an Almarro A318b tube integrated amp, and when it comes in next week I'll put the Zephyr back in and see if I can get both resolution and warmth with that combination. Someone said an audio system is like baking a cake. Well I've switched up a lot of ingredients, but I hope I'm homing in on a blue ribbon recipe.
Prior speakers were Audio Artistry Vivaldis FWIW. They got along famously with the Marantz amp, but in that case there is a very sophisticated passive crossover between the amp and the drivers. The designer, Sigfried Linkwitz, is on record as saying his speakers are not overly amplifier sensitive.
While I'm here, a couple more things. First off, we all know Bruce is great to deal with. I'd like to add to that list Keith Herron of Herron audio and Jim Jordan of Vaughn speakers. They're both in the same class. On last thing. I do a radio show that you can get off the 'net. It's the World Peace Party on WQFS Guilford College radio, 2-4 PM EST every Monday. Mostly indie rock and singer-songwriter, and all through 2017 I've featured a tribute to the 50th anniversary of the year 1967 around the 3:00 mark. Hendrix, Love, Moby Grape, The Byrds, 13th Floor Elevators, Cream.... If you're interested, do a search for WQFS and the tunein link should pop up. Content is MP3's and WAV files, mostly played through a laptop with Dragonfly Red DAC, so it's not exactly audiophile material.
Thanks for the picture of the manifold Chris. Mine looks nothing like that. Every screw hole has been, for lack of a better word, buffed. The edges around the holes have been sanded to where the edge of the screw is merged with the manifold. Not sure why it's that way, but I'm sure Bruce will make it right.
For now, I've set up two complete armwand / wire looms. One for the Zephyr and one for the Delos using the carbon fiber and aluminum wands respectively. My hope is that I can get them both properly calibrated and then be able to swap them out and not have to do a lot of re-alignment beyond SRA/ VTA and tracking weight. It's not in my virtual system photos, but I do have one of those run-out gauges you can attach to the top of the tonearm manifold housing that allows you to see exactly what the current tonearm height is.
Mike that manifold picture was sent to me by my audio friend down in Southern California. He had bought the ET2 used (not sure where it was sourced from), but it’s a good sample of what can happen when one runs the tonearm in a humid dirty climate without proper filters / moisture control. The good thing is this is not like rust on a car, and it is easily cleaned up; if one is a Type A personality :^)
My Timeter Air pump heats up the air, then with coils, condenses the air, and drains the moisture into a pan inside the pump box, like a car’s AC system. It sends clean desert like air down the line. Have never seen any liquid buildup in the bulb next to the table (except for the time the pumps drain tube became plugged - a story in itself). I have had no reason to pull out the manifold to look at it, so not sure if the screws have been buffed like yours.
What I can tell you is being set up for 19 PSI, it is very difficult to push the spindle through manifold (tight) without the air on. With the air on it is the smoothest bearing.
Hi Chris I also have a moister collecting bulbs but I've never seen a drop in them. My JUN-AIR compressor is about 25 feet away and has a moisture collecting feature that must work pretty well.
Link to image below.
My spindle moves very easily under pressure, and stiffly with no pressure. The buffing on the manifold looks like someone has taken a dremel tool to the surface. I don't think it's from my air supply, but I'm just going to have to let Bruce tell me what's going on. I will try to post a picture of it before I send it off. http://www.jun-air.com/product_images/6-25.jpg
Hi Chris. I realized I never responded to your question about using silk thread in lieu of the rubber belt. For one, the noise floor is lower. Speed stability I'm not sure of, but it's definitely as good as with the standard belt. Getting the tension right is a PITA, as I have to move the entire turntable to change it. FWIW, I'm using silk bead thread #2, and have had the same belt for a year now. I snapped a few early on adjusting tension, but this latest one is still working just fine.
I know we sometimes deviate from the main topic, and I'd like to do so. For the last two weeks I've been auditioning an Almarro A318B integrated amp and Vaugh Plasma Signature speakers. Mostly I've been swapping between two full arm looms (cartridge, arm wand, wiring), one with a Lyra Delos and one with a Soundsmith Zephyr MIMC. My findings are that the Delos has more body but doesn't dig out the details like the Soundsmith. The Delos seems more sensitive to SRA and tracking force, while the Zephyr's ability to extract all that detail is very much tied to getting Azimuth just right. I'm going to work on it again today, but just wanted to pass on these observations. If someone has had a different experience, or any insights, I'm all ears.
I’ve set up two complete armwand / wire looms. One for the Zephyr and one for the Delos using the carbon fiber and aluminum wands respectively
Your carts from the specs appear to both be line contact designs. The Zephr at 10 μm/mN compliance the Delos at 12 x 10-6cm/dyne at 100Hz. Similar compliances.
I would be running both of them on the Carbon Fiber or Mag armtubes not the Aluminum armtube - at least not without modding it. I see you have added wrap in your virtual system picture. I feel if you move the Delos to the CF it will return more information to you. Be interesting to find out.
But I don’t like to recommend activities that involved switching out carts, due to the risks involved in beheading them. 8^0
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Some perspective on the thread application.
Re: your modded TNT
Getting the tension right is a PITA, as I have to move the entire turntable to change it.
If I applied the thread tension that I use on my string drive turntable, to my former modded thread drive TNT, the TNT platter would barely move. It is applied loose - so loose that you can flick the thread as the record plays and not interrupt it. The string drive turntable’s pulley, and platter / bearing inertia design keep it going.
The VPI’s platter/bearing and motor pulleys being designed for belt, take some time to get it right as you say, with thread. But once dialed in I found a profound performance increase. Like the musicians were playing based on receiving some good news earlier in the day. The speed controller needed to be set much higher, but the resulting shorter and tighter bass notes improve pace and tempo and put the TNT on a par with my other tables at the time. I once tried a thread slingshot approach with the motor a few feet away. That was interesting - like kicking in a turbo. But the thread could not take the strain.
My findings Adding belts to a string drive design is easy to do, but it degrades performance. Adding string/thread to a belt drive design, is not as easy to do, but it improves performance.
Hi Chris. Thanks for the feedback. I've found that the string tension needs to be pretty loose for best performance. As for the arm situation - I did in fact have the Delos mounted in the Carbon arm for a good while and was getting good results. Then I went and switched speakers and cartridges and started fiddling with other parameters and the magic disappeared. I may be switching the Delos back to the Carbon arm, I just dread setting SRA and VTA again, as just last night things were starting to sound pretty decent again.
I've done a good bit of switching around of cartridges lately, and both the Delos and the Soundsmith have good stylus protectors. I'm not saying it's easy or foolproof, but at least it's not a scary proposition. A great opportunity to engage in mindfulness.
When setting up Azimuth If I am using a tube amp/s, make sure its channel output is even. Then I set up digital first and with the speakers in near field (takes the room anomalies out) . If your main speakers can't be moved use a temporary smaller pair of speakers. Then go to the vinyl with the same material. Match it up as best as possible by ear. I don't like the idea of using test instruments for Azimuth because, if the generator is not aligned with the stylus, you will be chasing your tail forever. Its an unknown. We can't tell if the Cart generator is lined up properly.
I am a bit confused by the last statement above. If the cartridge’s generator is misaligned, I can easily see why listening will give a better result than setting azimuth using visual alignment tools, mirrors, etc. that use the cantilever orientation (or even worse the cartridge body) to try to roughly approximate true azimuth alignment. But, given the same misaligned generator scenario, why would using a test instrument (say a Fozgometer or an oscilloscope) that reads each channel’s signal output independently and also the output signal balance between both channels give an improper result?
why would using a test instrument (say a Fozgometer or an oscilloscope) that reads each channel’s signal output independently and also the output signal balance between both channels give an improper result?
Sorry for any confusion. It is my understanding that "some" good carts yielding very high levels of separation, are not necessarily Symetric. They are Asymetric. If you try to use an electrical device in this type of scenario to balance the channels, you will not set up the cart as it was intended to be setup from the factory. It will be an "improper result".
I got this information years ago in talking with Peter at Soundsmith who has retipped for me in the past (two - carts I had bought used), and one of my own - that I beheaded. *^(
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Now Mike just happens to be using a Soundsmith cart and a Lyra Delos.
Mostly I’ve been swapping between two full arm looms (cartridge, arm wand, wiring), one with a Lyra Delos and one with a Soundsmith Zephyr MIMC.
Assuming two full ET2 arm looms implies to me that Mike is pulling the Gooseneck bolt.... to exchange armtubes ...thus leaving Azimuth settings intact for each cartridge.
Mike pls correct me if I am wrong.
Now what if.......
the Lyra has balanced channel db levels (by design) ........and the Soundsmith Cart....... not (by design) They would need different azimuth settings. I am not saying that Mike’s Soundsmith cart is one of these Asymetric Carts but what if.........
I set the cart visually level, then fine tweak Azimuth by ear, match it up with Digital. If one chooses at this point, test out the channel separation with an electrical device. If there is an imbalance, contact the Cart manufacturer and ask if this ok. That’s what I would do.
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This got me curious so I did some digging. Here is a video from Peter at Soundsmith. Watch at the 3:30 mark.
And to throw another can of worms out there. SRA is a moving target and it depends on your records and the plant they were made at. European standards differ from American plants. Angles differ by plant. Every time they put on a new cutting stylus (every 10 hours ?) it is never put in the same way as before. Think about it.
In response to Chris - Yes I am disconnecting the tonearm at the gooseneck, so in theory I'm preserving Azimuth and the tracking line when I swap looms. I still have to reset tonearm height to get VTA right, but I rely on the runout gage readings to get back to the right height. And of course I have to reset VTF. I'm going to switch the Lyra Delos back into my carbon fiber tonearm tonight and see if I can hit the sweet spot. My technique is to use a small van den hull bubble level that sits on top of the cartridge as a reference and make small adjustments and listen. Arguably the least fun part of dialing in the sound. When I hit that SRA/VTF/Azimuth window, and it's small, the reproduction takes on a whole new character. I especially notice it when a vocalist has backup harmony singers or is being double tracked. I listen to those background vocals and when things are right, those vocals are entirely distinct and you can often follow their breathing patterns etc., just as if they were lead vocals. Having said that,
I'm seriously thinking about getting a measuring device like the Fozgometer to get in the ballpark, but I'm going by ear tonight and will try to keep good notes. As Peter Lederman points out, the issue is that if the cartridge has very good channel separation, one channel may be 30db and the other 34db, those are both great numbers that would be compromised by matching output. The consensus from my reading is that the goal when setting azimuth is to minimize crosstalk.
Hi Chris & Dave! Funnyly, I watched through all the cartridge setup videos, and the long "testicles" video about cartridges inner qualities & problems the last three days. There is a lot of common assumptions and concepts about cartridge setup, and I have / had a bit of my own. Listening through Ledermanns videos is very inspiring and like a wave of clean fresh air into the brain. He is a f... genius.
Regarding azimuth I always wondered what to strive for when cartridge / cantilever combos of very expensive cartridges can be visibly off by three or more degrees - otherwise it wouldn't be visible. So the cantilever/stylus can be twisted in the body, and we can assume that it's probably difficult to get repeatable precision in production below 1 degree azimuth angle. The second question then arises: How exact is the mounting of the stylus in reference to the moving coil armature, or (around the cantilever axis rotationally) non-symmetric moving iron or magnet structures?All this results in the question: Does the coil/generator needs to be aligned exactly with the groove, or is it the stylus?Ledermann gives a clear and IMO decisive answer. The left/right tracing lines / points should optimally be on equal height – specially with line contact styli there is not much tolerance. Optimizing crosstalk often ends in tracing the upper edge of one groove / channel and getting (sometimes a lot of ) additionnal distortion. Optimizing channel separation symmetry (as a one parameter measurement)yields in that sense wrong results. I used to align my cartridges with mono recordings, or mono signals. I had the cartridge mono-strapped with switched +/- connections on one channel. The problem with this setup is that signal level differences between L and R result in less clear cancelling which gives a rather broad minimum. But interestingly in off-phase mono one can still hear the distortion more clearly. Maybe one should minimize *the distortion* in that setup. I got good results when keeping an ear on the distortion. Ie. minimizing the distortion and then in the minimum /optimal zone slightly adjust azimuth angle for minimal cross-talk. Effectively one listens to the vertical signal in that setup (as in the Fozgometers reading) – with distortion appearing in the lateral signal because of suboptimal tracing in one channel, highlighted by the opff-phase setup. I assume the Fozgometer has an optimized way to ignore the channel level differences and thus attainig a clearer null. But IMO doing adjustment by eye only on a meter eliminates the important audible changes. Ie. eliminating an important sonic parameter, the distortion, eliminates any remaining audible hint to tracing distortions due to stylus position. Both the Fozgometer and the Feickert system align the generator vs. the recording instead of the stylus, and therefore they are misleading (to put it in diplomatic words). And they measure only one parameter instead of the more multi-dimensional listening process.
IMO Peter Ledermanns talks are a must hear&see for any analogue/vinyl lover.
"Both the Fozgometer and the Feickert system align the generator vs. the the recording instead of the stylus, and therefore they are misleading (to put it into diplomatic words). And they measure only one parameter instead of the more multi-dimensional listening process."
Well said.
Chris's comment above under Azimuth is spot on. It's not easy (impossible) to get perfect sound from lp to lp because all of the variables involved in lp manufacturing and with the ET's design. One's best hope is to have the flattest pressing you own from a listening & visual perspective to set things up. Trying to chase perfect sound from lp to lp will be futile.
Before everyone gets (deep) into things, ...Chris pointed out some of your interesting (add-ons). These types of things make a difference to those that are posting without the benefit of whatever you feel those (things) bring to your experience.
For anyone here to give you a correct recommendation based upon their experience (without your obvious add-ons) would be their waste of time and a waste of this threads intentions.
#1. A plastic tie around one of the tonearm junctions? Why? #2 Tonearm wrap around your CF arm ? Why? #3 TT in the corner of your room. #4 Given these things,...what else?... what type of TT suspension are you using? #5 Trying too many varying audio components/tt adjustments in a short period of time.
Go back to the basics. The intended way the designers (BT) had in mind. ( This may require you spending a few $ but then there will be a (reference) all can respond to/you can behold).
These things should be noted before others try and respond.
Slaw It’s not easy (impossible) to get perfect sound from lp to lp because all of the variables involved in lp manufacturing and with the ET’s design. One’s best hope is to have the flattest pressing you own from a listening & visual perspective to set things up. Trying to chase perfect sound from lp to lp will be futile.
Bruce acknowledges and details in the ET2 manual some of the problems that exist with vinyl. One of the most glaring problems is lack of standardization.
Page 51 - ET2 Manual
The angle that the cutterhead stylus is placed at when a record is cut results in an included angle in the final disc. This included angle must be duplicated with the reproducing stylus or distortion will result. The problem today lies in the standardization of the angle by record manufacturers and corresponding standardization by cartridge manufacturers.
One solution is to use a tonearm that easily adjusts the stylus for this included angle. From my experience how much variability is heard between records even same thickness ones, will depend on the cartridge stylus type, the system kit being used, the Room itself, and the listeners hearing ability.
As discussed here multiple times, Bruce’ tonearm design focuses on this included angle cut into the record, and he came up with a worm gear VTA tonearm design that allows for adjustments on the fly, without changing set up alignment or VTF. This is a patented design as we know. But the VTA block needs to be setup correctly as discussed here also. All tonearms except for the ET2 change VTF when you adjust for VTA /SRA.
Furthermore Slaw, the ET2 manual is very clear. For bad ass records (not using those words *^0) - use a pivot arm. No one here that I am aware of plays bad ass records with their ET2.
There is no perfect record or tonearm, but at least Bruce tackles the problem with his design while other tonearm manufacturers choose to ignore this problem, trying to forget the Elephant in the room. I mean imagine a manufacturer selling a tonearm that is marketed as "VTA on the Fly" , but not telling the customer that your VTF will go up when lower VTA/SRA, and VTF will go down when you try to raise VTA/SRA.- ON THE FLY. Physics 101.
I agree that the ET2 has (probably) the only thouroughly intelligent VTA adjustment, though it isn't / wasn't without problems in my setup. It used / uses very low torque direct wires, lower torque than original. With my arm lateral levelness was affected by the VTA setting, which it shouldn't by concept. The block screws are adjusted for equal torque... I will have to check it sooner or later with the "feeler" gauges.
I think the main difference and advantage is regarding the non changing overhang.
Non changing VTF is a question of having the centre of gravity aligned with the vertical bearing when floating the arm. This is not an exclusive feature of the ET2 arm, there are more that are concipied this way AFAIR. Fine-tuning this precis balance is however most easy on the ET 2. The WTA Signature (which I own too) is extreme in that regard, as the vertical bearing is at the lower end of the nylon threads, where the threads vertically leave the paddle block (which swims in silicone oil). Way below the center of gravity.
To have the statical center of gravity aligned with the vertical (or horizontal...) bearing axis is, BTW, a solution for only half of the problem: Elongating the I-beam until "mirroring" the cartridge/arm masses and lever lengths potentially aligns also the dynamic center of gravity into the vertical bearing axis. This reduces the dynamic, horizontally pulling forces on the bearing when the arm moves up and down with warps. Ie. it reduces a source of "microdynamically varying offset" with warps - and or vertical modulation...I have not seen a discussion of this aspect anywere yet, but it's a weak point IMO of the WTA and unipivot arms. If one considers the tiny metal point contact (rather a microscopically short metal string) of a unipivot this makes one scratch ones head, because this interface is "elastic by design" which "even" a ball bearing is, on a microscopic level.There is much talk about the elasticity of air bearings - but actually the "better" or more close toleranced ones are rather stiff (plus being chatter / variation free) compared to the situation in metal bearings, at least compared to unipivots.
I think that Ledermann’s video has some subtleties that merit further clarification. At least to my understanding of his dialogue, he is discouraging use of electrical measurement primarily for setting azimuth with his Soundsmith cartridges, which he goes on to explain at length are very different than other cartridges, having extremely high channel separation that defies using channel balance as the criteria for optimal azimuth setting. He also makes statements indicating that electrical measurement tools can work well on other brands of cartridges IF the coils and stylus/cantilever alignment are not significantly out of whack.
Certainly, if the Fozgometer indicates that severe rotation of the cartridge is necessary to achieve lowest indicated channel crosstalk, then its use is counter-indicated for that cartridge.
In my particular case, the azimuth of my Orpheus L looks perfect using traditional azimuth setting tools (visual) after setting azimuth optimally according to the Fozgometer, which indicates zero channel crosstalk and that each channel reads exactly the same output level when tested individually. Listening tests confirm that channel balance and separation are indeed very good to my ears and soundstage depth/width excellent as well.
Maybe I am lucky but I would be more than a little upset if my $$$ cartridge had misaligned coils or a poorly aligned stylus-to-cantilever relationship to the extent that measurement is impossible. Apparently it is not that uncommon which, if so, is a shame.
I do share the idea that extended critical listening may help further improve sound quality once one has achieved best results with the Fozgometer, but at least it is a very good starting point for tweaking by ear vs eyeballing it with no idea of a proper starting point and it can also show if the coils are misaligned (as per the above where the cartridge must be tilted to an extreme to get good readings).
We all have our methods and whatever works for you and your individual situation is always best.
Pegasus Non changing VTF is a question of having the centre of gravity aligned with the vertical bearing when floating the arm. This is not an exclusive feature of the ET2 arm, there are more that are concipied this way AFAIR.
AFAIR - as far as I remember.
Oh wondrous flying Greek horse - 8^0 - please do tell of another design that strives for this high level .... and achieves it. If you don't post back I will assume none exist.
You see I am interested in some reading to get me past this last stretch of holiday stress and cold weather.
Pegasus From the info in your posts here, I recommend you remove your VTA block, re-align with a feeler gauge. re-install, and if not level... (leaning tower)... it's something before it causing your symptoms. I would not install the bearing, armtube, end I Beam until this was resolved.
**************************** True story
I knew an audiophile guy, lets call him "the Fogz", not to be confused with
Fogz had this room imbalance, I think because of the HVAC runs - ceiling left side. It was a small room, the negative being the sound bounced around easily; the pro being it was easily pressurized for that "Maxell Tape" effect, but .........In order to get a center stereo 2 channel image at his listening position, he would need to either adjust his preamp balance to compensate, or move the left speaker forward (1 foot) 12 inches closer to him than the right speaker. He sat about 10 feet away.
He liked to listen to digital and vinyl and to set up his own Cartridge. His Digital was always sounding different to him, more accurate, less distortion and better overall ...than his Vinyl ( he was using a pivot tonearm that did not have easy Azimuth and VTA/SRA adjustment ).
True Story... names have been changed. This Audio hobby is a set up game. But Analog (Vinyl) is 10 fold the complexity.
Off Topic, but what are the speakers over Peter's left shoulder? Cheers Grant
Hi Grant they sure do look like slim two panel ESL's don't they? ...or doors ? You got me curious so I asked Peter.
Dear Chris;
Thanks for the inquiry.
Yup – they look like speakers. They are the insides of cabinet doors for the TV.
What you cannot see are the Soundsmith Dragonfly speakers, directly behind me, which have replaced the Soundsmith larger stand mount Monarchs. The Dragonfly’s are great, but I was surprised at how well they do in place of the larger stand mount Monarch’s. They always get rave reviews at shows, and we have won best of show with them many times.
Most folks are not aware I have been designing speakers for over 40 years, and was director of Engineering at Bozak.
Ha, should have known, but as a vinyl, tube and ESL tragic I do get excited when I hear talk of UFO’s and see glowing spheres. :-) Damn if I had known you were going to ask him, I would have asked if he thought his MIMC* would be suitable for the ET2? Just trying to get back on topic. Oh and my best cartridge (ignoring the Koetsu I am too scared to use!) is a beautiful piece of Peter’s work, an SS ruby cantilever re-tipped Supex SD900. Thanks for checking and cheers
Damn if I had known you were going to ask him, I would have asked if he thought his MIMC* would be suitable for the ET2?
Grant The limitation is not with the ET 2 and 2.5. As you know they can handle any cartridge, but the 2.5 "was" designed for heavier lower compliance MC’s. So this MIMC would probably work better with the 2.5 and its larger lower resonating air bearing spindle.
The limit will be based on your preamp capability. From the website.
The name is an acronym for “Moving Iron for Moving Coil preamps). In other words, with its .4mV output, the MIMC should be used with a moving coil phono preamp capable of producing between 58-64dBs of gain.
I have a cart like that too that I call the XV1-AXE. Japanese Design, German Rebuilt
I once beheaded it - 20 feet from the turntable years ago. It was on a ET2, on a brass armpod - (see pic 39 on my audiogon virtual system page ) I had carried the whole shabang over to the bench to repair one of the leads with some solder. Somehow the 20 lb pod got moved in an awkward way and I felt a light tug............. Still hurts to think about it Anyway sent it to Peter and because of the manner in which its well endowed cantilever was sheared off, it damaged internals. He said it could not be rebuilt. At least he was not willing to do it based on his business model. So from advice from Audiogon user Nandric, I sent it over seas to Axel Schuerholz in Germany. He rebuilt it. He even had to make his own cart body bolts for it. Got it back and used it for a bit. One word - Organic. just amazing. But I was scared to use it out of fear over what happened. It still intimidates me today. Kind of like my daughters cat.
That MIMC design you reference can be retipped multiple times at $350 a shot.
but as a vinyl, tube and ESL tragic
good wording. 8^0 Reminds me of the Tragically Hip - Gord Downie - RIP of the remaining speakers (4) that I have held onto that will passed on ... two are full ESL’s and one is a hybrid - B&W ESL DM70 Continental.
Happy New Year to all!Hi Chris, this two remarks of yours are still open:
Pegasus: Non changing VTF is a question of having the centre of gravity aligned with the vertical bearing when floating the arm. This is not an exclusive feature of the ET2 arm, there are more that are concipied this way AFAIR.
AFAIR - as far as I remember.
Oh wondrous flying Greek horse - 8^0 - please do tell of another design that strives for this high level .... and achieves it. If you don't post back I will assume none exist.
I don't know if we understood each other correctly: I was speaking about static balance around the vertical axis, which defines if tracking force is stable with changing height of arm/VTA....AFAIR: - Any "standard" arm, with a straight tube (as seen from the side), a concentric counterweight and a vertical bearing axis crossing the arm tube in the center of the tube is in principle (almost) correct. - The ET2 is not different in that regard from arms like the Rega, or the Graham Robin eg. It is easier though to correct the ET2 precisely, with the vertical position of the counterweight. But... who does this precisely – and how?- Most unipivots try to stabilize the bearing by placing the counterweight below the (vertical ? :-) bearing, which introduces varying tracking force with height/VTA.
Pegasus: From the info in your posts here, I recommend you remove your VTA block, re-align with a feeler gauge. re-install, and if not level... (leaning tower)... it's something before it causing your symptoms. I would not install the bearing, armtube, end I Beam until this was resolved.
Humble horse, although a racing horse, listened to massa Chris :-) - I checked on a "spare" ET2 (Yes I have one... :-) and dismounted the VTA block. Yes, the engineering, idea and precision are admirable. Yes, some people torqued the VTA block much too much like the pre-owner / pre-setup man (are there any setup-woman...?). But not me... Two "axe blocks" left/right side of the VTA adjustment axe press the axe with the VTA mounting block to the air bearing block. Both "axe blocks" should exert the same force onto the axe, most easily done by precise adjustment of the gaps for equal depth. - This was/is correct on my arm. - I tested if changing the VTA with the VTA lever affects lateral levelness of the arm. It still does, lateral levelness is sligthly different with height, repeatable for different settings, some positions good, some a bit less so. Not to an obvious degree, but IME to a degree that necessitates rechecking lateral levelness after resetting VTA, based on my listening experience, specially in its effect on the bass. Sorry for the still not totally happy news :-) This is in my system with two twisted naked 0.1 mm silver wires, two L/R independent caple looms in a ca. 10cm diameter, very low torque on the arm apparently.
Pegasus This is in my system with two twisted naked 0.1 mm silver wires, two L/R independent caple looms in a ca. 10cm diameter, very low torque on the arm apparently.
Pegasus You have spoken repeatedly about your wire setup but have never been generous enough to share pictures of it to those in this forum. It is a new year and pictures are worth a thousand words. I ask you to share again. if you would like send me the pic and I will post for you.
From my experience the best wiring setup is to have the wiring come off the armtube down into a happy face loop. I discovered this during my armpod experiments. The wires, going down into a happy face loop after the armtube have the least effect on the movement of the air bearing spindle. Remember the ET2 is a free bird, unlike say the Kuzma Airline for example; does not need the wiring and airline for damping. Different design. Those that have wiring arranged in a Kuzma Airline type setup, on their ET2, are asking for trouble. Your wiring is controlling the spindle and will make you think maybe things are not level with its pushes and pulls. My Verdier uses a tall Solid Aluminum pillar for an armboard, that is bolted to the plinth, so the wires come down naturally. The ET2 really does like to be placed on a pedestal. I show pictures of this wiring set up on my virtual page.
I am reposting a thread archive shot of Frogman’s wiring set up for everyone benefit here also. Frogman, I hope you do not mind ? 8^0
For anyone using a plinth that was fairly flat with the armboard (like here with FM’s TNT), this is IMO, a great arrangement and the way I would do it also, if I had a flat plinth. Notice the happy face loop coming off the end of the armtube.
I guess I’m missing something regarding the post I made above. and then your response...
How can the VTF not be changed when one changes VTA by using the arc block design of the ET? This will either move the overhang out or in depending upon the necessary adjustment....right?..therefore altering S2P distance and VTF.
From my memory, this fact is not stated in the manual
Early on in this thread I addressed this issue this way... when I set up the arm, I used my most played record weight/height/thickness as my reference and used this to set up the arc block in (it’s center) regarding the latter record height preference. I referred to this as the "neutral zone".
Any deviation from this "zone" is a result of a VTA adjustment on the ET’s arc block that alters in some way the SRA, the S2P, the VTF. None of this is mentioned in the manual.
So... as all of this relates to why I posted above to another member...
He had so many system changes in play, and seemingly a lot of basic arm set-up issues, yet seemingly wanted a direct response to one/two issues..... Impossible!
Regarding your VTA question - I find it rather odd from a previous owner/user of this tonearm ...how many years ? ... to be asking this question. This ET2 patented VTA feature is in fact what distinguishes it from all other tonearms including other air bearings. Bruce understood that records come with varied included cut angles, so he designed a tonearm to easily deal with them.
Now the smart designer in whatever field, would never discuss secrets about how a patented design works .......in an Owners manual.
To use this VTA feature properly, and to see how it executes, is to understand it. Period. And we have discussed it in this thread previously.
Your question therefore indicates to me that either your setup was off, you just never understood it, or maybe a combination.
*********************************
As some of the ET2 owners here are Johnathan Carr fans I will let him re-affirm things.
********************************* for those not wanting to click on the link.
Jonathan Carr
However, as I recently wrote in Stereophile, the construction of every tonearm that I am aware of (with the sole exception of the Eminent Technology linear trackers) guarantees that altering SRA will simultaneously cause the effective length to change, along with the tracking force.
To make sure that any SRA-induced audible changes are truly attributable to SRA rather than sundry alignment shifts that came along for the ride, you must recheck the overhang and tracking force and "put them back" to what they were prior to the VTA change.
At the end of the day, you may ponder about the real value of "VTA on-the-fly" mechanisms (grin).
I’m still an owner. Plan to use it again at some point. If this negates me asking questions, well....that’s for you to decide.
You keep referring to the owner’s manual in almost every case except for mine? "Now a smart designer in whatever field, would never discuss how a patented design works.....in an owner’s manual".
#1 Why not? #2 A patent is public knowledge for those who ask. #3 Am I still missing something?
The arc block. Emphisis on (arc). Am I still missing something? When adjusted..moves the overhang slightly backwards or forwards. Doesn’t it?
The quote from Steven Carr seems to me at once confirm my post.
Ages ago I replaced the entire arm mounting block and with it the VTA arc slider. At that time I did not have the machining capability to replicate the arc in my design. So I did not copy that feature. I wasn’t too worried about this however because it is useful only if you play records on the same thickness and adjust VTA with them. Try a little trig..... Set up the arm with the wand parallel to the record surface and the arc at its deepest point. Now raise or lower the manifold using the VTA adjust leaver. As designed the stylus will land at the same place regardless of manifold travel up or down. Brilliant. Now use say a thicker record. With the same set up as before, the wand is parallel to the record surface at a point where the arc is not at its deepest. This has had the effect of moving the stylus landing point forward in the direction of record rotation. The stylus landing point now moves backwards and forwards as VTA is changed. Making the slider straight means that for a given VTA the stylus lands at the same place regardless of record thickness. With an arced slider we land at the same place regardless of VTA but only with the record thickness that the arm was set up for..
Doesn’t your post confirm my point? So, all things being equal, with a thicker lp, this results in an overhang error if the exact SRA is maintained. I believe this is what I was saying. It's really just basic logic right?
(Anyway, I hope that my continuing to follow this thread hasn't upset more of you.)
I took a U-turn and have been experimenting with two other tts. I felt it necessary in order to develop my own design at some point for my own enjoyment.
Can you please explain why these two names in big letters? Did these two persons something wrong in your opinion? I don't hope so.
I don't think that any sort of superior beings / majesties exist in this thread or in engineering. There is only superior design. The VTA design of the ET2 design has it, but with certain qualifications, as seen above. Engineering is optimizating for and starting with certain parameters. Bad engineering is forgetting important parameters. But even good engineering can only optimize for a given *choice* of parameters. One necessary choice of the ET2 VTA arc design is that of a certain precise height for defining 0 degrees. Therefore the optimization only works ca. perfectly for the chosen parameter. As explained by Richard. I did own already an ET one, which was followed by the ET2. And I most usually never needed any lessons about setup or tonearm geometry. cheers...
@slaw but you commit the continuous crime of not using the ET 2 for now. This is a crime onto your ears... ;-) I did the same for a certain time. And I admit the crime of not using my Thales Easy for the moment. Probably because I don't understand it. As a stubborn swiss I am uncapable of understanding superior engineering and mechanical skills.
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