Elrog 300b vs we300b

agree about the workhorse quality of the EML XLS and it sound as very modern and very extended, but the new production of the WE is my new 300B to go to....just everything right in that sound, nothing to complaint about.

@johnnycopy

The Frankensteins are marvelous sounding but can be a bit hard on the 300b tube. I had two failures with the excellent Takatsuki tubes within a 5 year period. Admittedly I use my Frankensteins very regularly for long listening sessions (4-5 hours on average). The EML XLS has withstood this usage well over 9 years with zero problems and continue to test well.

Obviously I can’t predict what your outcome will be, but the point being that the EML has many owners who’ve had very similar experiences as mine over the years. This refers to their “solid plate “, not their “mesh plate tubes. The mesh is very spacious and airy sounding but is much more delicate with regard for usage. XLS is a heavy duty rugged workhorse 300b yet also sounds superb in my opinion.

Charles

@charles1dad 
 

good to hear about the durability of the xls tubes Charles. I am looking forward to what sonic differences I will notice from the psvane (non acme version) to the Eml xls.

and of course the 5 year warranty was important to me after the recent failure.

1. @johnnycopy

In an earlier post I mentioned I had owned the EML XLS tubes for 7 or 8 years. I came across an old post of mine regarding 300b choices. At the time I made that post I had owned the EML tubes for about six months, so early spring 2013. I still have those tubes and they still sound terrific! They tested strong 6 months ago on my friend’s Amplitrex tube tester. My how time flies.😊

11-24-2013 at 10:01pm

Rlowe,
It’s hard to say, I used the Shuguang BT heavily for 2 1/2 years prior to getting the Takatsuki 1 1/2 years ago. The BTs are still very usable presently. I have the AVVT 32b (300b) which the Manufacturer said is a 40, 000 hour tube! I also have the EML XLS which shares a similar design and pedigree so who really knows?
Charles,

The best 300b tubes are expensive. Their better sound quality and reliability are justification. If you have a high quality 300b amplifier and audio audio system, it’s the right way to go. I would not hinder a good amp with lower tier 300b tubes.

Charles

@sns 

i noticed the acmes look completely different and more robust  The price, I am sure, reflects the difference in quality vs the pair I had.

Psvane manufactures different quality levels of tubes. The ACME is their uppermost tier for the 300b.

Charles

@johnnycopy Thanks for the picture, those not the Psvane Acme. Just don't want the Acme to get bad rep, absolutely wonderful in my 300B amps.

thanks Charles
 

@sns these appear to be the tubes visually that israel provided stock

https://www.hifi-amplifiers.com/en/psvane-vacuum-tube-electronic-valve-c-67/psvane-vacuum-tubes-300b-hifi-electronic-valve-matched-pair-p-213.html

@johnnycopy Which Psvanes are you speaking of? I have Psvane Acme 300B in my custom build 300B amps, nearing 300 hours no problem. I hear the Frankensteins run 300B pretty hard, I believe EML XLS is the ONLY 300B I've yet to see a single failure with. If my Acmes die, XLS will be my choice.

@johnnycopy

Be sure to follow EML’s initial use burn-in guidelines. This helps to ensure their long lifespan. They in my experience were good sounding out of the box and did improve over the next 50 hours of usage.

Charles

@johnnycopy 

I did not know that Israel felt the same regarding the EML XLS 300b as I have expressed. I’ve had the Takatsuki, VAIC and Elrog (1st generation) in my Frankensteins. All were truly excellent and I could recommend anyone of them.

All factors considered I’ve decided that the EML XLS suits me best with sound quality and outstanding reliability track record/tube longevity. I hope that you enjoy the same degree of success with them as I have.

Charles 

Deal done and they are in stock. They should be sent out Monday and should have them by following week at latest

Thank you Charles.  I just contacted Israel and asked him about WE vs EML and he stated the EML XLS are his favourites in the amp .  I think I will go with them.  There is a Canuck audio mart dealer ad for EML. Do you know the company?

@johnnycopy

Thst is disappointing. I have no experience with the new production Western Electric 300b but owner feedback has been very positive. They also have a 5 year warranty which inspires confidence.

I have used the EML XLS in my Frankensteins MK II for about 7 or 8 years by now and they are excellent! Very rugged construction and undeniably reliable. They sound splendid in this amplifier. I believe that you will be very safe with either of these two tubes.

Charles

Just had a failure of 1 of my 300b psvane on my Frankenstein mk3’s.  Very low hours so disappointed.

now to find a replacement.

sonically would appreciate a comparison of Eml xls vs WE reissue.

also wondering if anyone has heard these?

Steve deckert from decware  saying positive things about them

@sns 

Don't want to go too far off topic here, but Israel told me Psvane 101D tube quality and reliability has gone down greatly in last two years, he no longer sells any 101D tubes. He sold me pair of Linlai, used but tested well, I'm starting to become very concerned with future availability of 101D tubes, only two manufacturers and used very rarely in audio equipment. 

Well, I hope my current Psvane W.E 101D. serve me as well as my 1st pair did. The 101D based Statement line stage has performed brilliantly for me the 13 years I've owned it. During that time, I have had zero interest in replacing it with something else (Unless I went integrated amplifier for lower component box count). So, here's hoping that the Chinese get their act together with tube quality control. Be nice if EML made a 101D. 😀

@sns let us know how the change works out for you.

Charles

Charles, it may be due to the rugged build quality of the 'real' WE's, Makes sense a rugged tube run harder would have greater drive as it may be running in it's sweet spot vs. less rugged which may be on knife edge of performance envelope. If this case, both durability and sound may be affected.

Don't want to go too far off topic here, but Israel told me Psvane 101D tube quality and reliability has gone down greatly in last two years, he no longer sells any 101D tubes. He sold me pair of Linlai, used but tested well, I'm starting to become very concerned with future availability of 101D tubes, only two manufacturers and used very rarely in audio equipment. I don't know if this deterioration in 101D quality is impacting Chinese 300B tubes, well over 250 hours on Psvane Acme, still going strong and getting better all the time.

As for sound quality with diminished heater voltage, we shall see, just finished the install, went with 1% tolerance Ohmite wire wound vs 5% tol. generic.

@sns

I was not questioning the reliability of the re-issue Western Electric 300b, I’v not read/heard of problems. I was just wondering how this specific 300b has more ability to drive Susvara headphones (per larsman) more successfully than another 300b. What would be responsible for this to occur?

I have not spoken with Israel Blume about lowering tube heater voltage. I do suspect it runs relatively high in his Frankenstein 300b SET amplifier. I think this amp nay push the 300b harder than some other 300b amplifiers. I did not consider it may possibly be true with regard to the Coincident Statement line stage. I will say I’ve gotten pretty long tube life with the 101D tubes in this line stage. About 6 or 7 years using the Psvane W.E.Replica fairly heavily.

If lessening the heater voltage does not affect the superb sound quality of either Coincident component, then it seems a good move. The EML mesh plate I had failed very early in the Frankenstein (Amp’s rated heat dissipation too high for the more delicate genuine mesh filament). No issue whatsoever with the solid plate EML XLS (Exceptionally rugged 300b).

Charles

@charles1dad I can only tell you I've not seen a single instance of premature failure of WE, only other tube meets this threshold is EML XLS. This through years of research of nearly all forums on interweb. I worry about durability of every other 300B tube.

Have you spoken with Israel about possibility of lowering heater voltage in your Frankensteins? I'm lowering heater voltage on my Statement since having some 101D failures, per Israel's recommendation, doing the install of two required resistors today. Lowering heater voltage may increase 300B tube life, some of these 300B amps run heater voltages spec'd to original WE300B tube, likely the most rugged 300B tube ever produced, seems many newer 300B tubes can't handle it.

I do not doubt for a moment that the W.E. is the much better sound quality tube. Curious as to how it has better ability to drive a load versus other 300bs.

The Psvane and Linlai WE clones aren't  their top of line tubes, wouldn't expect they'd compete with the real WE.

Haven't heard Elrogs, but I can definitely vouch for the new WE 300B's - they took my Eddie Current Studio B to a whole new level, and they can now even drive my Susvara headphones quite respectably (they were not able to with JJ or Gold Lion 300B's). I do not regret that $$$ outlay one bit.... 

@smodtactical 

The elrogs are very neutral detailed, fast, expansive. Solid tubes but i do wonder what a more romantic bloomy tube would sound like in this amp. Considering the we300b clone (linlai).

Are you still happy with your Elrogs?

Did you try the alternative 300bs you were interested in for comparison?

Charles 

I bought a pair of the WE reissue after giving the Psvane WE replicas a shot. The replicas sound the part, meaning they sound good but the real deal is better in every aspect. The Elrog was high on my list but I think it was the mythology surrounding the WE as well as the warranty that got me. No regrets. 

@sns Thanks will look into that. I am thinking about the caps too... either cutf or maybe something warmer like jupiters. I wish I could do copper duelands but apparently they don't fit.

The elrogs are very neutral detailed, fast, expansive. Solid tubes but i do wonder what a more romantic bloomy tube would sound like in this amp. Considering the we300b clone (linlai).

@smodtactical Keep us informed as burn in continues. My Acmes now up to just over 80 hours, started blooming at around 60 hours, only getting better for last 20 hours, each listening session different and better than previous. Sound stage and imaging just amazing, and its claimed 150 hours for full burn in on Acme.

As for general burn in of tubes, interesting statement on EML website that burn in from tubes has much to do with on/off cycling. The idea that burning in tubes much like forming of capacitors, the heating and cooling stages are most responsible for burn in. Also claim, tubes should be only played at low volume at initial start and only gradually increased as listening session progresses, finally limit listening sessions to four hours. I've been following this during Acme burn in, can't hurt.

Changing out your resistors should be another worthwhile mod. My two favs are Texas Components (nude Vishay) TX2575 for clarity, resolving capability, Takman carbon film for musicality, a bit of warmth. Recently replaced six generic in my Coincident Statement pre signal path with the Takman, added just that tiny bit of warmth/more natural sound looking for. For electrolytic mods Audio Note Kaisei and Seiryu, I've done both, prefer them to Nichicon Muse, FG and Elna Silmic.

@sns  Ya I got the ODAM in right now. From what I read they are warmer which is what I am going for so perhaps its a good thing I have them in rather than CUTF.

So far I am enjoying the elrog. It sounds exceptionally revealing and detailed. I need to listen more and compare further to my cossor black plates. The elrogs still burning in I think.

I do wonder about the Linlai WE300b clone and EML XLS tubes.

Another issue when going to boutique film caps is space to fit. If one has pcb may be impossible, even with point to point may have space issues. Major reason I'm looking at VH Audio ODAM for future mods where space at premium. These look like the caps of choice where space at premium, and may be cap of choice regardless.

@puffball08 Of course ya it was the cost of it. But still wish he did so I don't have to wonder and potentially mod it.

@smodtactical

wish the guy who made my amp used cutf caps

Likely reason he didn’t is the copper foil V-caps are almost triple the price of the oil damped metalized polypropylene.

@puffball08 will look into that.

I wish the guy who made my amp used cutf caps but oh well. If I ever mod it then I can do both mods.

@sns that is awesome and makes me excited for my elrogs! A member of our discord sonic visions actually compared them and found he preferred the elrogs.

@smodtactical  I can't speak specifically to tubes you mentioned, but the Shuguang Black Treasure's running previously, and generally considered best of the low priced 300B weren't really in same ballpark as Acme.

I expected a modicum of improvement with Acme, not prepared for the massive improvement heard within five minutes of first listen to Acme, much greater resolving power most obvious change. Very disappointed I had delayed Acme purchase based on inability to choose which 300B to go with. I expect I'd be feeling exactly the same with purchase of any of the high end tubes.

@smodtactical 

Don't think there is any modded rectifiers.

If you're handy with a soldering iron and feel confident about bending and forming leads on a TO-220-2LD package, have a look at these.

https://www.onsemi.com/pdf/datasheet/ffsp05120a-d.pdf

@sns Do you find that even reliable budget 300b tubes (gold lions, linlai black plates) sound as good as ’premium’/more expensive 300b tubes? WE, Elrog, TAK, ELS etc?

I can’t speak for @sns but based on my listening experiences the answer is no. You can achieve pretty good and certainly what I’d consider solid or respectable sound quality.

As discussed above in this thread, the premium tier of 300b tubes are plain and simple better built and unquestionably better sounding. I would also point out that with certain brands you will get longer tube lifespan.

Charles

Thanks to everyone.

@puffball08 Right now I am using RCA clear tops as 12au7s and nos mullard from black burn facility as 12ax7. I have some other tubes too and have been rolling and listening for what I like best.

My amp has lundahl opt, vcap odams, tkd pot. Don't think there is any modded rectifiers.

@sns  Do you find that even reliable budget 300b tubes (gold lions, linlai black plates) sound as good as 'premium'/more expensive 300b tubes? WE, Elrog, TAK, ELS etc?

@smodtactical 

Out of curiosity, in your TU8600, what are you driving the 300Bs with (12AU7/ECC82/12BH7) and what is your input gain stage (12AX7/ECC83)?

Have you done any other tweaking like output transformers (Lundahl), stage coupling capacitors (Mundorf, Miflex, Jupiter), power supply rectifiers (SiC in place of the stock Schottky rectifiers), bypassing some of the power supply capacitors and bypassing the volume control (instead using an external stepped attenuator)?

I too have an Elekit TU8600E (early version with bipolar ripple filter transistors).

Remembering that our definition of sound quality is quite subjective and varies between listeners, I will say that I'm quite happy with the pair of WE300B that have 1998 date codes (made at the long ago closed WE Kansas City works).  Very smooth vocals, very nice bottom and not overly bright upper mids/highs.  I am currently breaking in a pair of new production WE300Bs and like them very much.  Similar to the KC works but a tad more defined sound on the upper end.  Nothing was lost on the bottom end.  I've also had Takatsuki 300Bs in a couple times for several months.  They are also a good choice.  They tend, at least in my system, to add a tiny bit more definition on the low-mids, a bit more "sparkle" in the vocals and well defined bottom end (BIG bass).  Maybe a good word would be a bit more sterile sound but not at all objectionable.

Keep in mind that the items I mentioned in the first 2 paragraphs will greatly affect the sound no matter which 300B you choose.  Some different brands of 12AU7s can make a huge difference in the sound quality.  Or even swapping the 12AU7s with 12BH7s.  The same goes for the 12AX7.  You can spend a very eventful weekend rolling tubes looking for the sound you like.

And rolling the stage coupling capacitors (C103,203 and C104,204) will yield nice changes in sound stage and definition.

Okay I see, was not aware of these specific Elrog 300b tubes. I owned the standard/original Elrog 300b.

Charles 

https://www.partsconnexion.com/ELROG-87365.html These are those Elrog

I would say that any 300B tube made with Molybdenum would be far ahead of those mentioned here.

As far as I know only Elrog makes them

Not sure how you reached that conclusion. As I mentioned above I owned the Elrog 300b. It is an excellent beautiful sounding tube. It has very good dynamic ability, however I find the EML XLS more dynamic and authoritative in its sonic character.

In my audio system the Takasuki was as dynamic as my Elrogs. Both are excellent choices. 

Charles

I would say that any 300B tube made with Molybdenum would be far ahead of those mentioned here.  

As far as I know only Elrog makes them. I Have been through many tube amps (including 300B's) and use their 243's (211 with moly). And it's a dynamic leap, which reflects in price too.

See if you can get a chance to try a pair, or it is within your budget. I would think performance wise it would be a no-brainer.  

@sns 

My same outcome with the 6EM7 driver tubes, no real differences heard. 

Very different from my 300b experiences.

Charles

I did hear differences in driver tubes with AA 845. I haven't heard a bit of difference in various 6 EM7 for Coincident 845, Israel said as much when I questioned him in regard to this. After AA experience, assumed my 300B would react well to high quality drivers, never tried with anything other than same nice NOS drivers I've  been using from beginning.

@david_ten

I’m pretty sure Scott is familiar with Arthur Loesch and I’m very curious to know his thoughts regarding driver tube attributes (Particularly the high current aspect). Given Scott’s expertise I suspect he has a strong opinion one way or the other.

Charles

I have been playing around with a whole range of driver tubes on my WAvac EC300B. There are audible differences that are of the same order of magnitude as output tubes. Specifically Jan Philips 7581a: very resolving and fast, yet slightly harsh in the treble. Svetlana Winged-C 6L6GC: very harmonious, sweeter than Jan Philips 7581a, yet most depth of soundstage, Tungsol KT66 (actually really 6L6 GC with 900mV heater current): deepest bass, very powerful but slightly sluggish. These were the best of the lot; JJ, GE and RCA black plate are fuzzier and less dynamic. I have not yet tried the Tungsol 6L6GC reissue but am intrigued because of the strong KT66 performance. As mentioned mixing and matching driver and power tubes gives additional mileage. 

@sns Thanks for your responses. Looking forward to your findings when comparing the Acme and Shugang in your 845 amp.

@charles1dad Thanks. I’ll reach out to Scott to find out his thoughts on his choice of driver tubes (7A4 x2 with OC3 x2 and OD3 assisting) for my 2A3 amps and what he thinks of Loesch’s points.

@david_ten

Arthur Loesch tracked me down at the CES a few years ago, and as we chatted and toured the rooms at the Alexis Park, he mentioned that most DHT’s sound alike - if driven by a low enough source impedance and a powerful driver with *lots* of current. It’s when they are driven by feeble 5-8mA driver tubes that the characteristic 45, 2A3, 300B, or 845 signature appears. In other words, you’ll get loads of that 300B sound if all you’re using is an RC-coupled 6SN7."

The esteemed SET maven Arthur Loesch (Haven’t seen his name in quite some time) seems to be making 2 points.

1 DHT tube require a high current driver tube to obtain optimal performance.

2 If this driver tube requirement is met then there’s little (If any) sonic signature distinctions amongst the DHT tube choices.

Well I do know that the builder of my Coincident Frankenstein 300b SET specifically chose the 6EM7 as the driver for the 300b output tubes. Citing the 6EM7 has far greater (Max of 50ma per data sheet) current capability compared to the 6SN7. He said this is exactly what a 300b tube needs to display its full potential. Also the late Roger Modjeski said the 6EM7 had enough current and power it could function as an output tube driving a speaker load.

He in fact subsequently built a 6EM7 SEP amplifier that produced 2 watts per channel (Equal to  a 45 tube). Point being if it can drive a speaker impedance, it can drive a DHT output tube. So Mr. Loesch may have a very valid point.

As to his 2nd point, I just don’t know. I’ve compared numerous 300b brands in my Frankensteins (With high current 6EM7 driver tube) and could very easily and clearly hear sonic character differences between all of them. Now granted this was using only the 300b . Whereas Mr. Loesch was comparing different DHTs (45/2A3/300b/PX 25 etc.) to each another.

As always the world of tubes is interesting and even fascinating.

Charles

@david_ten  At some point after Acme 300B fully burned in I'll return to Coincident 845 in system and compare present Shuguang Black Treasure 300B as driver vs Acme. Based on 6moons review of Coincident monoblock 845, Linlai Elite 300B  vs can't recall cheaper tube as drivers made obvious difference to reviewer.