Elrog 300b vs we300b

Who manufacturers the EAT. I suspect they farm that out just as Audio Note does to Psvane.

Yes, materials and design. Over the past few months I've experienced four different 101D tubes in my Coincident Statement MkII pre, one mesh plate, three solid plate, mesh plate and one solid plate use a bit of gold plating in tube structure,  one lower cost, three much higher cost. The three higher cost tubes each have special qualities I can prefer at any point in time or for particular types of music. My experience with 101 replicates what I hear from many reviews of 300B's over many years.

The other major thing I hear with premium tubes is color, perhaps one could say character. Cheap tubes sound bleached out in comparison, this is something I never noticed until moving to the premium tubes, immediately noticeable just like the added resolution.

One other aspect of differentiation is durability, the only two premium 300b's I've yet to see a single failure are the EML XLS and WE. Now, as to whether tube or amplifier running excessive plate voltages at fault, I can't say. I've seen Psvane Acme failures, I believe every single failure has been with Line Magnetic amps. Was this early Acme production or Line Magnetic running them to hard? I've seen failures from all the others as well, exceptions pointed out above. Elrog has also had many failures, Thomas claims to have solved issues, may be true, haven't seen a failure lately? Linlai Elite has had some recent issues, I've heard issues resolved. I guess point of all this is, tube manufacturers constantly changing and refining in order to maintain presence in marketplace, the tube you purchase today may not be the same tube you would have purchased the month prior.

I've long been observing perceptions of all the boutique 300b. Don't think you can go wrong with any of them, different flavors, all very resolving and refined. I wanted to purchase new 300b boutique tubes for perhaps a year, simply couldn't make up mind as all mostly favorably reviewed. Finally, threw dart at board, Psvane Acme came up, this for custom build 300b monoblocks. Acmes so far superior to Shuguang Black Treasure, should of upgraded long ago, indecision kept me from enjoyment for far too long.

Point being, all the boutique tubes are nice, just a matter of different flavors. All will resolve at high level and offer refinement the cheaper tubes can't come close to. Acmes have  aprox. 75 hours and getting better all the time!

@charles1dad Can't follow your link. I didn't know tooling for tubes that widely available, but then that is eastern Europe, probably lots of old Soviet tooling around.

Well, here we go again, one gets good results with particular tube another not. I couldn't stand KR 845 in Art Audio Carissa Signature I was running at time, sterile, clinical. It also suffered failure, blew resistors in amp.  Various Chinese 845 tubes have been my choice since, both for AA and now Coincident Turbo 845. You should also know Art Audio stopped recommending KR at some point when I owned AA due to other failures. EML only Eastern European tube manufacturer I feel confident about, I've seen too many failures from others, EAT I have no opinion here.

I've not yet tried Acme in Coincident as drivers, should be interesting.

Takatsuki up around $1600 as well, I saw over $2k on one site lately.

Hopefully the Elrogs hold up, I do recall seeing a single new production Elrog being sold couple months ago, suspected might be selling single as other one going bad?

Anyway, keep us informed, Elrog will rise on my list of future 300B if they can prove reliable. Can't recall seeing a single review pertaining to new production Elrog reliability, same for KR and EAT as well. Until I see evidence of reliability, they all remain suspect for me.

@david_ten I've heard this claim a number of times, not my experience, various driver tubes in two 845SET, one 2a3 and 300B, I've always heard difference between output tubes, easy to hear. My argument for stating all boutique 300B tubes are nice based on many reviews over many years, flavors described, but don't recall a single review stating any of these tubes having major sound quality flaw. Reliability still overriding factor for me in choosing between any of these tubes.

Also,  my dismissing of KR845 should be taken in context, this was many years ago, quite possible new production KR845 much different than older production.

@david_ten  At some point after Acme 300B fully burned in I'll return to Coincident 845 in system and compare present Shuguang Black Treasure 300B as driver vs Acme. Based on 6moons review of Coincident monoblock 845, Linlai Elite 300B  vs can't recall cheaper tube as drivers made obvious difference to reviewer. 

Well, I have only single example based on personal experience. My AA Carissa Sig had 6922 and 12bh7 drivers vs 300B drivers in Coincident. A bit of time went by and system used at that time had changed somewhat in between AA and Coincident in system, but right off bat I thought Coincident had a bit more natural sound quality. Now, was this due to 300b vs 6922/12Bh7 driver tubes or system changes, or aural memory faulty? I recall thinking 300B had something to do with this. So, yes I suspect driver tubes make a difference. But important point here, I easily heard differences in power tubes with both amps.

I have no doubt there is magic in getting just the right driver and output/power tube to sing in tandem, I can't give specifics as to which combo is best for any particular amp, system or listener. Hopefully, our amp designers have chosen best combo for that particular circuit. It would be cool to have an amp that could use multiple driver tubes to hear effect of these tubes.

I did hear differences in driver tubes with AA 845. I haven't heard a bit of difference in various 6 EM7 for Coincident 845, Israel said as much when I questioned him in regard to this. After AA experience, assumed my 300B would react well to high quality drivers, never tried with anything other than same nice NOS drivers I've  been using from beginning.

https://www.partsconnexion.com/ELROG-87365.html These are those Elrog

@smodtactical  I can't speak specifically to tubes you mentioned, but the Shuguang Black Treasure's running previously, and generally considered best of the low priced 300B weren't really in same ballpark as Acme.

I expected a modicum of improvement with Acme, not prepared for the massive improvement heard within five minutes of first listen to Acme, much greater resolving power most obvious change. Very disappointed I had delayed Acme purchase based on inability to choose which 300B to go with. I expect I'd be feeling exactly the same with purchase of any of the high end tubes.

Another issue when going to boutique film caps is space to fit. If one has pcb may be impossible, even with point to point may have space issues. Major reason I'm looking at VH Audio ODAM for future mods where space at premium. These look like the caps of choice where space at premium, and may be cap of choice regardless.

@smodtactical Keep us informed as burn in continues. My Acmes now up to just over 80 hours, started blooming at around 60 hours, only getting better for last 20 hours, each listening session different and better than previous. Sound stage and imaging just amazing, and its claimed 150 hours for full burn in on Acme.

As for general burn in of tubes, interesting statement on EML website that burn in from tubes has much to do with on/off cycling. The idea that burning in tubes much like forming of capacitors, the heating and cooling stages are most responsible for burn in. Also claim, tubes should be only played at low volume at initial start and only gradually increased as listening session progresses, finally limit listening sessions to four hours. I've been following this during Acme burn in, can't hurt.

Changing out your resistors should be another worthwhile mod. My two favs are Texas Components (nude Vishay) TX2575 for clarity, resolving capability, Takman carbon film for musicality, a bit of warmth. Recently replaced six generic in my Coincident Statement pre signal path with the Takman, added just that tiny bit of warmth/more natural sound looking for. For electrolytic mods Audio Note Kaisei and Seiryu, I've done both, prefer them to Nichicon Muse, FG and Elna Silmic.

The Psvane and Linlai WE clones aren't  their top of line tubes, wouldn't expect they'd compete with the real WE.

@charles1dad I can only tell you I've not seen a single instance of premature failure of WE, only other tube meets this threshold is EML XLS. This through years of research of nearly all forums on interweb. I worry about durability of every other 300B tube.

Have you spoken with Israel about possibility of lowering heater voltage in your Frankensteins? I'm lowering heater voltage on my Statement since having some 101D failures, per Israel's recommendation, doing the install of two required resistors today. Lowering heater voltage may increase 300B tube life, some of these 300B amps run heater voltages spec'd to original WE300B tube, likely the most rugged 300B tube ever produced, seems many newer 300B tubes can't handle it.

Charles, it may be due to the rugged build quality of the 'real' WE's, Makes sense a rugged tube run harder would have greater drive as it may be running in it's sweet spot vs. less rugged which may be on knife edge of performance envelope. If this case, both durability and sound may be affected.

Don't want to go too far off topic here, but Israel told me Psvane 101D tube quality and reliability has gone down greatly in last two years, he no longer sells any 101D tubes. He sold me pair of Linlai, used but tested well, I'm starting to become very concerned with future availability of 101D tubes, only two manufacturers and used very rarely in audio equipment. I don't know if this deterioration in 101D quality is impacting Chinese 300B tubes, well over 250 hours on Psvane Acme, still going strong and getting better all the time.

As for sound quality with diminished heater voltage, we shall see, just finished the install, went with 1% tolerance Ohmite wire wound vs 5% tol. generic.

@johnnycopy Which Psvanes are you speaking of? I have Psvane Acme 300B in my custom build 300B amps, nearing 300 hours no problem. I hear the Frankensteins run 300B pretty hard, I believe EML XLS is the ONLY 300B I've yet to see a single failure with. If my Acmes die, XLS will be my choice.

@johnnycopy Thanks for the picture, those not the Psvane Acme. Just don't want the Acme to get bad rep, absolutely wonderful in my 300B amps.