I have Lampizator Big 7 as well. But I use 45s, the best of them, Cunningham, and then the best of that.
Please keep us posted how it develops. Have you tried any other tubes on Lampi Big 7, including any other 300Bs?
Just as Charles1dad I upgraded to PSvane 101D WE Replica on the same line stage. Worth the extra 300 over the stock tubes for sure. |
I bought two pair of Elrogs from George at tubesusa as well. I might have around 20 hours on them at this time in my Golden Dreams PSET's. They replaced KR Audio balloons and I have to say they were an immediately noticeable upgrade. It'll be a little more difficult for me to evaluate how they change with run time due to a replacement of the rectifier a week prior in my Melody P2688 line stage.
What I can attribute to the Elrogs is this: very transparent (a clearer view into the music), perceived expanded bandwidth top to bottom, micro dynamic "action" is enhanced. The latter trait allows for a closer tracking of the emotional elements in the music. I hope reliability is at an equal level as sound quality because these are keepers. |
Hi Jordan(Germanboxers),
Jordan, your initial impression sure equals mine! Emotion is the key word. Believe me they will continue to improve with additional hours of use. These are superior sounding 300b replacements and I'm happy they work in your Audion amp. I suspect "most"(heed Dmarkov's warning) 300b amps will mate well with the excellent Elrog tubes.
Charles |
Hey Charles. Yes, emotion is the key word from an experiential standpoint. It's what music is all about (IMO) and any change in the equipment or software that elicits more of it is a good thing in my view.
BTW...I listened to "Fingerpainting: the music of Herbie Hancock" last weekend and thought of you. Thanks for recommending it! What a great trio! Whitfield and McBride really seemed particularly tuned into each other and, together, quite complementary to Payton. Very enjoyable album! |
Jordan,
Fingerpalnting is a CD I've owned for years and yet still listen to it very regularly, I'm glad you enjoy the wonderful music. I would also recommend"Parker's Mood" this features McBride, Roy Hargrove (trumpet) Stephen Scott (piano) playing the music of Charlie Parker. I believe you'll really enjoy/appreciate this recording as well.
Jordan I don't want to hijack this thread but how does your Audion Golden Dream differ from the Audion Black Shallow sonically/musically? You can answer this on my system page if you don't mind. Im always interested in your listening impressions.
Thanks,
Charles, |
Charles,
Answered on your system page. And thanks for the "Parkers Mood" tip...I'll check it out. |
Hi Charles,
Your posts on the Elrog has got me interested in them. Better than Takatsuki and EML is a very good thing. Have you tried old WE 300Bs? By old, I mean pre-1960? |
Hello Ddriveman,
I haven't had the opportunity to hear the"vintage" Western Electric 300b, Only the later era reissue version. I didn't like the W.E. reissue 300b in my amplifier. The EML XLS and Takatsuki were much better sounding in my system. The Elrog ER 300b is ridiculously excellent sounding in my amplifier. It preserves so much of the heart and soul of music, it's very humanistic if that makes any sense to you.
Charles, |
Ddriveman, one of the goals for the Elrog 300b was to exceed the performance of the old WE300Bs. The tube designer worked a long time on this tube until he felt like he had achieved his goal. I have not had the pleasure of auditioning the WEs, but I find the Elrogs to be superb in the Frankenstein amps. Given the price differential between the two, I'm happy to remain in my ignorance is bliss spot. |
A few people who have compared the Vintage W.E. 300b and Takatsuki say they're very close. The Takatsuki more extended bass and the W.E. a tad more midrange magic. The cost of the W.E. is so astronomical that I had no interest in trying to get a pair. I appreciate the finer things in life, but only to a certain point. When cult status is reached things can get out of hand. I can live with the Frankenstein/Elrog pairing very happy the rest of my life. This is simply pure musical joy.
Charles, |
Hi Charles,
Thanks for your feedback. Looks like I have to try the Elrogs. I do agree with your previous post that the reissue WE300B is not great. But I do have a few pairs of vintage WE300B with rectangular getter of 1950'd and early 1960's era. I also have 1970's era but these are not as nice. Bass and dynamics are the areas where the vintage WE300B loses out compared to Takat and EML. I haven't tried the Vintage WE300B wit my Berning SE OTL 300B amp. I should do so since the OTL amps have great bass since they do not have output transformers. |
Ddriverman,
The issue of compatibility of the Elrog with various 300b amplifiers has been raised on this thread. Given that you have two different 300b Amps it will be very interesting to see how these tubes perform in two different amplifier circuits. |
Bill(Brownsfan),
I received an interesting email today from audiogon member Mark who recently got a pair of the Elrog ER 300b tubes. He loaned these tubes to Israel Blume to try in his system. They both feel that these tubes were just a subtle improvement and did not justify their high cost. Israel, Mark and I agree upon the substantial improvement rendered by the Pavane W.E. replica 101D tubes in the Coincident line stage. I find the Elrog just as impactful (at the very least) so while I obviously respect their impression, I will respectfully disagree. As more people listen to the Elrogs it will be interesting to note their impact according to various listeners. Israel does not find the Elrog 300b upgrade that he does the Replica 101D in his components. For me, both were major and welcome additions in my system.
Charles |
Interesting Charles, and thanks for the info. Any idea what 300b the Elrog was a "slight improvement" over in those systems? |
Cal,
For Israel I'm pretty certain it would be the Pavane Black glass version. I Often agree with Israel in most cases regarding the sound of different items and components, but not in this case. The truth is that some will share his view that the improvement is only subtle, and some will share my view that the Elrog is a significant upgrade. |
Charles,
I suspect that the difference in ancillary equipment, DAC, various supporting tubes, wires, room and so forth account for the different point of view...as is usually the case, but I know you know that. At any rate I'm looking forward to hearing the Elrog. |
Charles, well this is a conundrum and no mistake! As you know, my point of comparison for the Elrog 300B was the Psvane T1 black glass 300B, which I also suspect may be Israel's reference tube. As you also know, I issued a rapid and emphatic endorsement of the Elrogs, with the caveat that I had no experience with the Taks, EMLs, WEs, and Sophias. One more thing you have no doubt noticed, is that sort of rapid and enthusiastic endorsement is uncharacteristic for me. I was much more reserved in issuing an endorsement of the Psvane WE 101 replicas vs the Psvane HiFis, for instance.
I have to think this is a case of some variability from tube pair to tube pair. Clearly, you and I are on the same page, but I think it is just as clear that we share Israel's values, since we both have all Coincident systems. I can't make any other sense out of this. I don't think I'm inclined to second guess Israel's ears, but I also respectfully disagree. The Elroy's are a substantial improvement, and are a great value based on cost/performance considerations.
I took no little comfort in having you validate my assessment of the Elrogs. You know what? I'm going to stay in my happy place. Barring a dependability issue with the Elrogs, I have NO desire to experiment with other 300Bs. |
Hi Bill,
You should without question remain in your current "happy place". My only point in bringing up this issue was to illustrate how you can sometimes disagree with people whose ears you most often agree with. Subjectivity being what it is, at the end of the day you have to trust what you hear and just go with it, this is something I know we both do with confidence.In all honesty I have yet to come across any audio component, part or accessory where they will be 100% unanimous agreement, it just doesn't happen.this is interesting to me from this perspective. I truly find the Elrog a superior output tube even compare to other tubes I had considered to be excellent.
Charles |
That is just Israel he can be goofy at some times. He can be stubborn and when something is as expensive as the Elrog's it may not fit his style of recommending good value for the money. To say that these tubes are only slightly better is really a joke. Right out of the box they beat any tube prior to. I just think he does not want to promote this expensive of a tube with his philosophy, otherwise I can't explain it. Thanks goodness for this forum or how else would people find out about this stuff. Kudos to all you members keep up the good work. |
Charles, all...
Always trust your own ears in your environment. |
JWM, Charles indicates that Israel endorses the WE101Ds for the CSL, and they are $600 a pair. Not sure this is Israel's relentless (and that is a good thing for his customers) efforts to excel with respect to the value proposition. I suspect he heard a pair of Elrogs that weren't up to the standards some of us have enjoyed. |
Hi Bill,
I hope tube to tube variability isn't the explanation. Elrog does extensive testing to ensure high quality control standards. I'd not want it to be the case that it's a crap shoot of getting a good pair at their premium cost. I'd be more accepting of it being a matter plain old subjectivity. Israel and I would probably agree on 90% on what we hear, so this may just fall into the 10% where we'd differ. I can easily live with that circumstance. I'm listening right now and the music reproduction is beautiful, tactile and sublime. I'll always call it the way I hear it and my natural response to it.
Charles, |
Charles, what you suggest is certainly possible. I think you and I so far are in complete sync with respect to what we hear, and that holds despite the disparity in our musical tastes.
I just can't fathom how the guy who designed the equipment I admire so much, were he sitting in my room doing an A/B with the Elrogs and Psvane Ts, would suggest the difference was subtle. It is not close to subtle, and anyone who says it is needs to have an ear irrigation, my respect for Mr. Blume notwistanding. Something seems amiss to me.
However, if anyone purchases a pair of Elrogs and is not satisfied, I'll be willing to trade them straight up for my moth balled Psvane Ts. Just let me know. |
Bill,
Our music taste is different yet the Elrog conveys the essence of these indivual genres wonderfully . Germanboxers has a system of entirely different components and yet his impressions are as enthusiastic as ours. In the end I just acknowledge there will be inevitable differences of opinion. |
Has anyone heard or had experience with Elrog 300b tubes failing? I was very interested to get a pair but heard this from one source -cannot confirm it is true or not. Thanks |
The reliability problem seems to be fixed about a year now. I own them and have no problems at all. |
How long have you owned them JWM?
Thanks
-assad |
I have them now for about four months. |
I have both Elrog and Takatsuki 300Bs running on line magnetic 219ia. For speakers, I used LS50 and Harbeth 7es3. Devore O93 is on the way replacing 7es3.
I probably have about 100 hrs on Elrog and 30 Hrs on Takatsuki. So, it's probably too early to say. So far, I like Elrog better. Takatsuki sounded too polite compared to Elrog. Elrog gave better dynamic, top to bottom balance and much bigger soundstage. I will give more time to Takatsuki and compare again. I am trying but always end up switching back to Elrog. :) |
Bhchung,
I concur with your comparison/results. The Takatsuki isn't polite in my system, in fact it's quite dynamic. The Elrog is however more dynamic,vivid and livelier sounding in my system. The Elrog is said to have a lower "amplifying factor" compared to other 300b tubes. Yet when actually listening to them the sound is more authoritative, bigger/bolder(in a realistic sense) with superior nuance retrieval. I'd expect the Orangutan to be an excellent match with your Line Magnetic amplifier. |
Takatsuki needs 150 hours burn in according to web knowledge. Up until 60-70 hours Takatsuki may sound nothing special compared to burned in great tubes, some say 100 hours.
BTW, what's recommended burn in for Elrog? |
Update,
I was deep in emotional musical bliss the other night when I suddenly lost sound in my right channel. No smoke,noise or drama, just no sound. I swapped the Elrogs left to right and there was no left channel sound. So one of the Elrogs failed. I spoke with George Lenz at tubesusa.com. The Elrogs are within their 6 month warranty period.George was very responsive(as he's been in the past). I'll return the tubes tomorrow and wait for the replacements.
Well stuff happens. I had to replace my original pair of Takatsuki after about 1 year(they have a 2 year warranty). Takatsuki said my case was very rare. I hope this is just an aberration and the replacement Elrogs are reliable. This tube is simply fabulous to listen to. I haven't lost faith. In the meanwhile I'll enjoy my warhorse EML XLS. It's a change from sublime to "merely" excellent sound.As a tube amplifier lover for 2 decades these type of episodes have been rare thankfully. Until I find a transistor amp that equals my SET experience I'm staying put and accept the fact that nothing is perfect.
Charles, |
I recently experienced a major failure with an Elrog 211 tube in my Coincident Dragons. I am starting to wonder about the reliability of Elrog tubes. |
Sorry to hear about that. I suffered no damage fortunately. I put my EMLs in the amplifier and have music again. If the replacement Elrogs fail I'm just going to stick with EML and Takatsuki. With Elrog's long history of making military spec tubes in Europe these "audio" tubes should be no problem to pull off(one would think). It is such a fine sounding tube but that's not enough if you can not depend on them to last. The EML so far for me seem bulletproof in comparison. Time will tell. I must say that the EML XLS is sounding "very good" right now. The Elrog is even better but it certainly doesn't embarrass the EML.
Charles, |
My friends Elrog 845 tube failed last month and took out a resistor. Not sure who he bought the tubes from but they are sending a replacement tube. |
Sorry to hear about the failures guys. |
This does not sound good at all. |
Jet,
That's the beauty of a forum such as this one. I know a few people took a chance and bought Elrogs, EMLs and Takatsuki based on(at least to some extent) my very positive comments. I feel obligated to report problems when they arise. Elrog said the earlier reliability issues had been solved, so I took a chance. With the replacement Elrogs I will post on their reliability as times goes on.
Charles, |
I am waiting on a new matched pair of Elrog 211 tubes and will continue to report my findings here.
I also own the Elrog 300B tubes but am not using them while breaking in my new Coincident Frankenstein MKIIs. Will eventually report back when I start using them. |
Charles, Sorry to hear about the tubes. Mine are still doing OK, but I have had very little listening time for the last month. Still trying to sell the old house and so forth. Too much traveling, too much mowing, not enough music and not enough hiking. Although I did a killer last week.
If my Elrogs fail, I'm with you on the EMLs. Based on what I have read, they look like a great value proposition. I wasn't unhappy with my Psvane T black bottles, but they don't have the resolution of the Elrogs. Not even close. |
A friend of mine that runs a SET amp with 300B output recently had one of his Elrog 300B fail. Prior to that he had been using modern WE 300B for as long as I've known him which is a good 7 years. |
Tmmvinyl,
You have the Coincident Dragon and the Frankenstein, nice. That must be a sonically interesting comparison between those two amplifiers. I know that Arthur Salvatore did a recent comparison of the three Coincident amplifiers on his website. I believe it was about two months ago.
Charles, |
Charles,
Earlier today I updated my System thread with where things currently stand on my long term plan to compare and contrast the Frankenstein MKII and Dragon MKII amplifiers. Stay tuned. |
It seems that there might be an issue with reliability and the 300b....I brought it up as I would love to get the Elrog but not if they fail. Years ago I had the KR-XLS tubes in a Cary 300SEI LX...went thru 3 pair in 18months before Cary stopped using them and stopped the LX. |
Hi,I am an engineer at Elrog.
some thoughts about the realiability of 300B (and special ELROG ER300B)...in my bad english.
Yes, we have trouble in a handful of amplifiers when using our tubes...these are some models of "VAVAC", "Border Control", "Nagra" and now the "Franks" (aka. "Frankenstein").
Why?
Ok, let us study the "Frankenstein"...
There we have:
- 525V operating voltage with some drop (25V) over the OPT
- Makes 500V at the Anode
- because the 1kOhms cathode resistor we have 86.8V at the cathode
- results about 413V anode voltage
- at anode current of asbout 87mA
- so we have a plate dissipation of 35.93 W
35.95W this is very,very close to the WE datashhet for the maximum plate dissipation (36W)!
The old datasheet of the 300B says 400V Anode voltage as MAXIMUM...413V? In the newer version some "Recommended Operating Condititions" are included...the MAXIMUM anode currrent is specified at 80mA...not more...87mA?
Ok, the ABSOLUTE maximum is specified at 100mA...using self-biasing circuits...
And readable also:
"The life of the tube at maximum operating conditions will be shorter than at the recommended conditions"...how much shorter?...8000 hours 9000 hours...?!?
And now we return to the first point..."Design Center Values" of a tube...
Since all the times, tubes have a deviation in parameters...if not different specified, 10% are absolutely normal.
So, if I am a good ingeneer I go a little bit below the maximum ratings (this 10%)...And then I think about the deviations of the "mains"...115V are correct...but, what if there are 120V (or 110V)...there are another 5%...
Thats why I think the "Frankenstein" is NOT well done.
All is "on the edge".
It is very simple... a cathode resistor of 1.2kOhms will do the job...
The decrease of power is very small and the decrease of distortion is small also...BUT the tubes will last much more longer...doesn't matter this will be WE300B, EML300B TAK 300B ore ER300B ;-)
Regards, Matthias |
Matthias,
Thanks for your contribution. Goerge Lenz of tubesusa.com called me today and gave me this explanation.I'm somewhat confused as Coincident president Israel Blume says the Frankenstein has a conservative design and is easy on the 300b tube. I'm no engineer and I accept what he said.My EML XLS seem to be doing fine with tthis amp(so far,2.5 years).
But again that's a different tube design.If a simple resistor change solves the problem that's good news(assuming there are no adverse effects of doing so).
George mentioned that there are plans to "tweak/modify" yhe Elrog to improve compatibility with certain amplifiers such as Coincident. Matthias the Elrog ER 300b sounds simply terrific in this amplifier, so congratulations! I sure hope the issue can be successfully resolved. The discrepancy between you and Israel Blume puzzles me(it's either tough or easy on the 300b).
Best Regards,
Charles, |
Hi Charles,
You are absolutely right...No problems for EML XLS tubes.
They are designed for 55W anode dissipation, not for 36(40)W only. For this tubes the "Frank" is easy. ;-)
You can read something about that here:
http://www.emissionlabs.com/datasheets/EML300B-XLS.htm
Yes, we work on modifying the tubes to improve the compatibility for some "special amps"...but this needs time.
For now we will replace failed tubes with selected tubes, tested at the same conditions as this amps are working(plus 10% safty margin)...
Regards, Matthias |
Charles, it sounds like you may have to do this resistor change to make the 300B last longer. If they do tweak this tube you may want to wait for that replacement. If you just get another one from this batch I probably would do the resistor change. It can always be taken out in the future. |
Jeff,
George is only going to use the modified tubes from this point going forward, so these will be my replacement Elrogs(when they're ready). The resistor swap option seems simple once I know which one to change(you think Doug could help?). I'm very encouraged and hopeful.
Charles, |
I find it fascinating that changing the cathode resistor value from 1K ohm to 1.2 K ohm has such an impact, that's all it takes? Almarg, where are you my friend? LOL.
Charles, |
