No worries Charles, you've been properly careful with your language. It's just that I'll be buying a new pair of 300b tubes sometime next fall and now you've made me want a more expensive set. And, unfortunately, I'm now stuck wanting a new rectifier tube as well, although I can at least swing that one before the new job starts in August. |
Elrog update,
I guess I should have seen this coming, the good has gotten better. The sound continues to open up and has improved on what was described just a few days ago.
In essence here's what's evolving. The foundation, weight and body have improved(out of the box this was already exceptional). Yet at the same time resolution,musical subtleties,nuance, micro information are just fleshed out beautifully. The chemistry and interaction of the musicians becomes so apparent. Tonality and fully sorted out harmonic color and richness is simply excellent. The music flows fluidly with emotion and humanity. It's very difficult to end a listening session. I went well beyond my bedtime last night, couldn't help myself. These tubes are for pure music lovers as opposed to gearheads who are primarily into the components in and of themselves.
If all or most of what I'm hearing is due to thoriated tungsten filaments, why did it take so long for someone to try this material/construction in the 300b(that's been in production for 80 years)?
Anyone with a good quality 300b amplifier must seriously consider buying the Elrogs. These are genuinely special tubes. and will improve any system with their installment in my opinion.
Charles, |
Charles, thanks for sharing. For Coincident Frank MK II, do you roll 6EM7 tubes as well? What is your pick? Thanks. |
Charles1dad, Thanks so very much for your audio community contribution with test and results of these very fine tubes. If their were more like you their would be a lot less BS in the industry and a lot less wasted money. I don't know about some audiophiles but my money is still made the hard way,I work for it,and if I can go straight to this tube and not waste the money or time trying two or three pairs of expensive tubes then that's just great and you are to be commended! I'm sure there are some who are not too happy with your forthcoming candor of all the tubes you've spoken of. Again thanks, this all said as I order a pair of Elrogs! Lol! Heck, I just may go ahead an order an 845 pair as well. |
Philefreak,
I appreciate your comments and thank you. I sincerely believe your money will be wisely spent purchasing the Elrogs.
Wyan001, I haven't rolled that driver tube and I don't think there are many choices of them. If you do that please post your impressions.
Charles, |
I agree with the above. Thanks Charles for this and the advice you have given me in the past-Jet |
Jet,
Thank you. It works both ways you know. I enjoy reading about your hands on experiences with your custom 300b SET. I look forward to the Sophia Electric and Audio Note output transformer comparison. There is much interesting information to be shared amongst all of us here.
Charles, |
Charles,
Thanks. I am using a First Watt J2 to drive Voxative/Lowther full range drivers. The source is Lampizator Big 7 with volumn control. I do have quite some 5U4 type rectifier to roll and will roll some output tubes on Big 7 as well. I have ordered a pair of Elrog.
I am thinking maybe I should try a Coincident Frankenstein MK II someday. And since I have 5U4G/27B rectifiers and 300B already, I thought maybe I would ask about 6EM7 as well. I do realize that there are no much 6EM7 to choose though.
Thanks again. |
Wyan001,
Gon member Snopro (Joe) uses the First Watt J2 and the Frankenstein MK II with his Zu speakers. |
Charles1dad…have you compared the Elrog 300b to the Psvane WE 300b..?..Just wondering as i recently installed 2 matched pairs of the Psvane WE 845s and will be replacing my current Sophia 'Royal Princess' 300bs,1 in each of my amps, in the very near future..thanks for any thoughts..The Psvane WE 845s are superb. Is there synergy with tubes within the same amp.? |
Hi Calloway,
I 've been fortunate to hear many 300b s in my amplifier but the Pavane W.E. Replica wasn't one of them.I use their W.E. 101d in my line stage. I've heard their 845 often in my friend's(Jwm) Absolare Passion 845 amp. This is an excellent series of tubes from Pavane. It was the best 845 Jwm had used until he bought the Elrog 845(it's better we both agree). I'd expect that there's synergy using the same series of Pavane tubes. You're at a high level already with the Sophia Royal Princess 300b IMO. I wonder how much impact the 300b makes as a driver tube in your fabulous Chalice amplifier. I can't imagine you ever replacing that amplifier.
Charles, |
Charles1dad...thanks for your thoughts..I do value them..I will probably flip a coin when the time comes later this month to order the 300b's. I will be having new interstage transformers installed next month in the amps... |
Calloway,
New interstage transformers? My goodness, how much better can that Chalice sound?
Charles, |
Wyan001, check out my thoughts between my J2 and Franks in this thread on 3-13-15.
I rolled a few different 6em7s. I didn't find any noticeable differences.
The rectifier and 300b make worthwhile improvements, IMHO.
Joe |
Charles and Joe,
Thanks a lot. I just read the short comment about J2 vs Frank. I like my J2 and Voxativ combo a lot. Nothing beats a single ended class A amp and a high efficient driver/speaker combo in terms of naturalness, ease, dynamics and musicality. When listening at a low volumn, I feel there is a bit of everything/anything and I often wish to be drawn into something more closely.
However, when I turn up the volumn a bit, something a little harsh begins to appear. I am not sure if this is the inescapable charaterists of electronic sounds or it is because my room has not been treated (glass wall behind the speaker, smooth and hard floor surface and non-treated side walls). I am guessing both factors matter.
I did find respectable reviews saying that Frankenstein almost get rid of any trace of electronic sounds and that has been why I plans to try it out. :)
Thanks a lot again.
Wenye |
Calloway I was using the WE845 tubes in my amps and they were the best I had heard. They beat RCA new old stock 845. When I switched to the Elrog's the difference was huge. I would not hesitate and get the elrogs especially with your great amp. The best Jeff |
Wenye,
I don't know enough about your system so I can only speak in general terms. If you're seeking a more natural and less electronic sound quality, the Frankenstein is that direction. Get the best 300b tube your can comfortably afford, this amplifier will reward that effort. Perhaps the most obvious and pleasing characteristic I noticed when I got mine is the absence of electronic sound/artifact. Snopro's video pixel analogy is a good one.
Charles, |
Jeff…thanks for the advice…i will probably get the Elrog's instead of the Psvane's.The Sophia 'Royal Princess' 300bs i have are great but they are getting old and i want to have a spare of both the 845s and the 300b to have on hand in case of a problem. will get them next month. i will be demoing the new HF CT-1 pcs in a week or so and do not want to have 2 new items to evaluate at the same time..i will get back with my thoughts on the Elrogs after getting them..thanks again for your thoughts..Dave |
Elrog update,
These tubes continue to impress me deeply in their ability to infuse the music with life and vibrancy as they accumulate playing hours. They really do bring my sound closer to what I hear in my local jazz venues. That unmistakable full, rich, fleshed out instrumental tone and body. Harmonic overtones are really revealed and the natural lingering and decay of notes is very lifelike. Vocalists just sound present and utterly living and breathing believable.There is exceptional dynamic energy, snap and excellent music pace and flow regardless of tempo. There's such a wonderful combination of liquidity with very high resolution(all articulate and clear, no syrup). I'm the jazz guy and Bill(Brownafan) is the classical musical afficioanado. Bill are you hearing these characteristics with your genre of music? These are very special tubes that are still improving! I'm around 70 hours (this includes the factory's 24 hours of burn in).
If generally speaking there are two broad camps in high end audio, natural/organic(usually tube) and accurate(usually transistor). I am a card carrying lifer in the natural camp. Thank you Dr. Schaffernitch for your Elrogs.
Charles, |
Well now you have me thinking about these tubes Charles... Shame on you my wife would say :)) i'm going to contact the elrog folks and ask for a data sheet. I would like to know the tube's preferred operating points and if it likes AC or dc heat. |
Charles,
What you describe is exactly what I want to hear. I'm in both the Jazz and Classical camps with a dash of Rock and other styles of music. Natural/organic sound. It will be the Elrogs for me when I get the Franks. Does anyone know if they are going to produce an EL34. I'd love to hear that in the Coincident Dynamo. |
Hi Jet,
Elrog seems to favor/recommend DC rather than AC filament voltage for heating. They say that the thoriated tungsten filament due to its thermal properties are more subject to hum with AC heat. I'd get in touch with George(owner)at Tubes USA.com (just to be sure about that). He sells the Elrogs(sold me mine) but also builds very custom tube amplifiers. He's a straight shooter and very knowledgeable. I believe he's located in Long Island NY. I think you'd really these tubes.
Good Luck,
Charles, |
Hi Rob,
I've heard enough at this point to say with confidence the Elrog/Frankenstein pairing is marvelous. Truly an ideal combo to my ears. |
Charles..when the next shipment of 300bs come into 'TrueAudiophile' i will be getting a pair..can't wait.. |
Calloway,
My original order was with True Audiophile but they had delays with shipment from Germany. I hope they have gotten things sorted out. I subsequently bought my pair from Tubes USA.com with no problems.
Charles, |
Charles…thanks for that info..i will surely keep that in mind.. |
Hi Charles,
Hope all is well .
Its been a while since I visited the Audiogon forums and am slowly getting up to speed.
Like you,my goals in any improvement or evolution of my already very satisfying system is always the "organic factor" over anything else.
Sooooo...It looks like I have to get the Elrog 300B tubes!!
In combination with Mullard GZ37 rectifier tubes, whose impact on sound quality improvement were huge,the Elrogs should really make the Franks sing .
I'm hooked and I cant wait to get a pair.
I know we share similar values and choices on our hardware selection based on our "sonic morals" so I respect your evaluation and know I will be in for a real treat.
Thanks for doing the leg work and investigations for me and the other worshipers!
Regards,
David |
Hi Drdavid,
I won't go so far as say you'll worship the Elrog tubes but you'll find them very special. You know the impact of the Psvane 101D in the CSL. Well you can expect similar results with the Elrog ER 300b in your amplifier. An unquestionable improvement in the direction of natural and increased realistic sound. Let us know your listening impressions once you have the time to post.
Charles, |
Hi Charles,
What I meant about worshiping was that we (I include myself and other SET devotees)respect your opinion and seem to have similar audio values. And therefore worship you LOL.
I still need to do a bit of research wrt pricing, living in Canada with a much lower dollar and much higher duties
But I definitely plan to get a pair and would be happy to share my experience.
Regards
David |
David,
As far as respect is concerned the feeling is mutual toward you and other valued contributors on this thread.
Charles, |
I've done a study on 300B tubes and continue too. Here's my 2 cents. I have 2 sources I totally trust. One has compared Elrogs, PSVANE T2, old Western Electric (one of the best production runs), and Takatsuki.
Elrog performed poorly there, to the degree that he thought they were not a good match to that particular amp. Indeed, Elrog is not a WE type tube, many say these and many other tubes that are called 300Bs shouldn't be called 300B's and a different name should be given with substitution advice and warning. I don't know what happened, since TJ and Sophia are also not your regular WE but they work fine and perform fine in that amp. Expectations from Elrogs were high, the result surprising and worrying.
The other source owns old WE's, new WE's (now sold, I bought them :), Elrog, and older white base Takatsuki. He prefers the old WE's and Takatsuki.
I do not own Elrog and I haven't heard it yet. I do own Takatsuki. I did try Sophia RP, TJ Special Edition and new WE's (several of them) among other 300Bs. My strong preference is Takatsuki.
My learning from the above: 1. Elrogs might not be universally good in all SETs or it could have been a one off faulty tube or mismatch 2. Some might prefer Takatsuki.
3. I am not putting my own money on Elrogs just yet, I need much more evidence.
FY, I have 4 SETs at the moment. Coincident Frankenstein MK2, Border Patrol SE 300B, Border Patrol S20 EXD, Coincident Dynamo SE34 just to try and do some tube rolling to see their potential.
Another interesting tube is TJ Full Music CNe recently launched. I only know one source who heard it, compared to PSVANE T2 and Takatsuki and TJ SE. |
to add... Elrogs seem to work great with Franks which is excellent news. |
Hi Dmarkov
In my assessment and comparison of the Elrogs I made it a very clear point to emphasize the baseline excellence of the Takatsuki and EML. I also mention that no matter how good a tube is it will always be amplifier and individual listener dependent. Yes, in the Frankenstein amplifier the Elrog is simply magnificent, I know of no other way to accurately describe it other than this. If someone else has use this tube and found it was unsatisfactory, well that's just how it goes sometimes. You have to listen and decide yourself. Personally, I honestly can't imagine this tube sounding poor in any amplifier even if someone ultimately preferred another tube in place of it. Once again, the Takatsuki is an excellent sounding tube but I found the Elrog superior. Although the Elrog is a drop in replacement for any 300b it is not nor was it intended to be a Western Electric clone. The Western Electric tube was inferior sounding in my amplifier with direct listening
and comparison.
Charles, |
I tried to order a pair of Elrogs. It seems as if the current wait time is so long that at least one US importer has suspended importing Elrog 300b tubes. |
Gary
Unfortunately part of the problem is Elrog has much more demand for their tubes than they ever had anticipated. They just aren't able to keep up with all of the requests, this is really a small specialty German tube making manufacturer. Gary. Try tubesusa.com, this was my source for Elrogs and EML. Very good customer service.
Charles, |
This again illustrates what I've always known. No matter how impress one person may be with a particular product there will always be someone else who finds it disappointing. It's just the way things go with subjectivity issues.
Charles, |
Fortunately, as I have commented previously, I am very happy with the Takatsukis. |
To my ears, the Elrogs are just outstanding in the Coincident Franks. They are much better in essentially every respect as compared to the Psvane Ts. Previously, I had found no preference in comparing the Ts to the TIIs, and found both of them superior to the Shuguangs. I have not had the pleasure of auditioning the EMLs or Taks.
My advice to other Frankenstein owners would be to give the Elrogs a try. I seriously doubt you will find anything better based on my experience and that of Charles. For owners of other amps, your mileage may vary. The good news is that we have some wonderful tubes to match to our amps and individual tastes. |
Hi Charles1dad,
With my HUGE respect to you, this is not what I wrote.
I reported a case where with a particular SET amp Elrog was not just unsatisfactory. It was most probably not working properly as the sound was much inferior. It was not a matter of preference. The testers have huge experience both listening and building amps, I have not a slightest doubt in their assessment (there were 2 people, I have feedback from one).
In the second case I reported, it was indeed a matter of preference and not towards Elrog. And the man owns all these tubes, it's not a quick AB test. The SET in this case is also not Frankenstein MK2s. They system is very high grade, higher then mine and mine isn't a toy either.
The Elrog is not a drop in replacement for any 300B tube. What's called 300B tubes these days is a mix of different designs and even specs and this does cause problems in some amps. Several amp designers discuss or mention this. I could drop names of particular tubes here but I won't :)
Old WE's are not the same as new WE's and various batches may have different qualities too. I only heard new WE's, never the old ones but did several times, one pair is still with me.
What's very important is that Elrogs do work wonders in Frankensteins and this is key and very valuable info.
I am going to be more careful with other amps.
I am extremely grateful to you for making me replace 101D's in my Coincident Line Stage with PSvane WE Replica. I also replaced the fuse with AH. I totally confirm your findings there. I also paid attention to Star Sound and Tripoint type of products and am trying both with good results. |
Dmarkov,
In terms of specs (filament current and voltage) the Elrog is a drop in replacement. In terms of "sonically" matching, this will be an individual determination (as it should be). As with recommeations I've made to you and anyone else, they're all based on my listening and specific taste/preference. I'm happy to hear that my previous recommendations to you have been very helpful.
Charles, |
I don't mean sonically. Although mismatch can lead to severe sonic compromise or high hum level with sensitive speakers or something else.
Elrog is NOT a drop in replacement. Its specs are NOT compliant with WE's specs, like its plate resistance as one example. What's more important is that there is a proven case which I reported where Elrogs did not work, precisely due the fact that they are not drop-in replacement. For example, they might NOT work with 2 of my 3 300B amplifiers with my sensitive speakers.
Now I know they will work in Frankenstein MK2 but this is 33% success rate in my case. For some people with one amplifier it'll be 100%, for some 0%. Takatsuki to my knowledge has had no such problems so far. They might, but so far I don't know of any such cases.
That's the difference between them.
Online research will lead anyone interested to datasheets of Elrog, original WE's, Takatsuki. Also, there are discussions regarding how some 300B tubes should not be even called 300B tubes. This is all theoretical until it actually does cause problems. All I did is reported a case where it did in practice. And it's very relevant to me and owners of 300B amps.
I can't say yet what it is that causes this amp-tube mismatch. I know of other so called 300B tubes that occasionally have mismatch problems so this is not unique. What I do know now is that Elrog is among them. This is the reason I interfered in this thread. It could be helpful for some. |
Dmarkov, I think you do us all a service by issuing a word of caution. Not everyone has the luxury of running expensive experiments. For those who are not in a position to roll the dice on a pair of 1K tubes, it may be well to carefully consider your words. For those that are in such a position, I say go for it.
Optimizing anything related to top tier audio is far from simple. If it were simple, we would all be doing the same thing. Consideration of the physics is alway a great place to start. But it is just a start.
I rolled the dice on the Elrogs pairing with my Frankensteins. It was a risk for sure, given Charles previous experience with, and praise for, the Franks driven by both the Taks and the EMLs. Had the experiment not gone well, I would have kicked myself for not going the safe route, which would have been acting on Charles previous experience and just ordering a pair of Taks. As it turned out, I was intrigued by the novel approach of Elrog, acted on that interest, and was pretty much blown away with the Elrogs right out of the box. I have been far more effusive than is normal in my recommendation of the Elrog 300Bs. For reference, see my caution regarding the Psvane 101D replicas vs the Psvane HiFi series.
Charles had the good fortune to audition a pair of Elrog 845s in a friends system, and based on that, he rolled the dice on the Elrog 300Bs as well.
If you have followed Rebbi's threads regarding driving his Ref 3A deCapos with a low power SET, you have seen caution issued by one of this forums most technically astute contributors, Almarg, with this pairing. After Rebbi's "satisfaction" with said pairing, he provided another astute set of observations that provided some basis in physics for why this pairing may indeed work.
As we used to say back in the chemistry lab, sometimes you just have to stop talking and run the d@Mn experiment.
There is another aspect that impacts all of us. The big gambler was the innovator who took a huge risk both in terms of money buy also in terms of the opportunity cost, i.e. the folks at Elrog. No one is going to take the risk of underwriting the cost of R&D, not to mention product launch, if we as consumers become overly risk adverse and won't try their products. We have to take some risk as well. The NOS well is running dry. The people with actual experience from the golden age of the 50's and 60's won't be with us much longer. It behoves us all to seize the moment.
I say folks try the tubes. If you don't like them, sell them. |
Brownsfan, thank you and I agree with your points and hats off to people behind Elrog and Takatsuki. Charles1dad's and your experience with Elrogs in Franks is very good news for owners of Franks, me included. They are cheaper than Takatsuki after all!
But I am making 2 points that I think are also very important/valuable in this thread and I will not allow them to be mellowed down :))
1. Elrog is not a 100% drop in replacement and is not suitable for any 300B amp. With more statistics we will know where it's working.
You are totally right. I will even add that people with means actually owe it to the bravery and risk of the people behind new Elrog to buy, try and compare to other great tubes :) But try to hear Takatsuki too if you can. It's not difficult to beat PSVANE T2 these days except it's totally amazing for its price and I often recommend it.
2. The fact that Elrogs are better in Franks (yes, a matter of sonic preference but I trust Charles' experience) does not guarantee they will be preferred in other amps over top tubes.
This is not a mere speculation. I mentioned much less successful listening experiences where other tubes were preferred to Elrog (old WE's and Takatsuki). So at this point my only take out is that they work exceptionally well in Franks, and that they are better in Franks than Takatsuki (yes, preferences may differ, let's say there is a big chance they'll be preferred), and they are cheaper!
For other amps - not at all that clear, and for some ampd - not recommended. I will keep an eye where it works and where it doesn't. It would be great to sometime do a list. If I hear anything like this about Taks, I'll report too.
I posted some photos of my system, there are some tubes there. When I test, I also try to test in several systems and with several pairs of ears to make sure it's not a one off. |
I'm not a technical person and don't claim to be. Everything I've read up to this point has stated the Elrog is a direct replacement for the 300b as they matched the filament current and voltage requirements. I accepted this as fact and had no logical reason to doubt it. If there are certain amplifiers(for what ever reason) that can't use the Elrog this should be made known(thanks Dmarkov). I suspect they may be a minority. Based on a goggle search I did to read other Elrog user's experiences, it seems the vast majority have had positive outcomes.
At this point with this relatively new tube, more information will be gathered and some level of compatibility will be known over time. I would never expect that everyone will always prefer the Elrog over other worthy 300b competitors. There are simply too many different ears and amplifiers/systems for that to be the case.
Charles, |
The Elrog has a different internal impedance, gain and filament type to a conventional 300B. Internal impedance (resistance) is approx 900R vs 700R, gain is higher than a standard 300B and the filament is thoriated tungsten type vs oxide type. It will give less power than a standard 300B under the same conditions.
Elrog recommends to use the tube into higher impedance output transformer loads than a conventional 300B because of the higher internal impedance.
It can have a problem in an amplifier that was designed around 300B specs as it did in the case I mentioned. Problem = mismatch and sound compromise.
Voicing/sound of the tube is different from "standard" 300B but this could be either good or bad, users can decide for themselves.
In absence of proof that it works in a particular amp, like with Franks as we have here, or when one has no possibility to just get a bunch of tubes and hear them in his own amp, it could be wise to contact the amp designer for advise. More experiences similar to the one with Franks will tell the story eventually. |
The longer I've live with and listen to the Elrog ER 300b the more I recognize how wonderful this tube is. The past few weeks I've been able to listen to quite a bit of music and it has been a truly enjoyable time. The sole purpose of Elrog it seems is superior emotive provocation. They simply connect me thoroughly and deeply into the musical soul. I've sat at home and played CDs all the way through and then replay them. I listen to songs three times in a row, it's that pleasurable. These tubes offer such a natural, fully developed and realistic tone/overtones that I'm just completely pulled into the listening experience. They really do everything in an excellent manner across the musical board.
I was at such an exalted level of contentment with my EML and Takatsuki, I'm actually surprised the Elrogs have taken my music listening to a higher plane( to this degree). As these tubes accumulate playing hours they just continue to improve. This is so satisfying because straight from the box they sound exceptional. I truly hope that the Elrogs will work in the vast majority of 300b amps as well as they do in my amplifier. This has been a sublime experience for me. |
Interesting read regarding the Elrog ER 300b.
Where does one order a pair?
How much is a pair?
I recall reading a while ago they were on back order (but I forget from where) is that still the case?
Thanks for any assistance. |
Lak,
They're 1099.00 USD pair. I bought mine at tubesusa.com. Demand seems greater than the current supply at this time.
Charles, |
My recently acquired Elrog 300B replaces Psvane WE101D replica on Lampizator Big7 as output tube (Big7 has a switch to take either lower current or higher current tubes).
Initial impressions are very positive. Right now it is not as refined as 101D but it dwarfs 101D in every other areas. Sound stage expands dramatically; more details (and 101D was reported to be utterly detailed on Big7); better depths (but filled with information) and more holographic; more sense of realism on vocal.
I suppose that it needs burn-in to be more refined. Also my system needs tweaking. But certain details and depths already show how capable Elrog is. I am looking forward to trying them on tube amps sooner.
Thanks again to Charles and fellows for all the inputs. :) |
Wyan001,
That's an interesting comparison of those two very different tubes. I use the W.E. Replica 101D in my line stage and it's superb in that function. It's a thrill having both of these tubes in the same signal path working together.
Charles, |
