your obviously going to have different power outputs with the different tubes. so if power is a concern that may be the driver of your choice. all those tubes sound great in a good amp with slight differences. biggest being your going to be comparing SET 300b etc and Push Pull El34. one other option you may consider if you need more power in an SET is Parallel SET this has two tubes doing the amplification in a parallel configuration in a 300b this would essentially double the output power to 15wch roughly. in a parallel amp both tubes are SET and both do the full wave ( so not push pull with cross over distortion) they are summed at the output so doubling the power. I like every tube you mentioned all have strong points and week points Push Pull will always feel more powerful as they usually are. SET will tend to have a more romantic mid range but suffer at the freq extremes. ( note good output transformers can eliminate this some what). I'm actually surprised your getting satisfying sound from your 8wch SET driving those speakers at 88db they are not efficient.
one thing to consider is what makes a SET tube amp great, 1. stable clean noise free power supply 2. quality output transformers. the first gives you low noise floor (very important in high efficient speakers), drive and power reserves. the second (arguably the more important) determines greatly the freq response mostly at the freq extremes (poor out put transformers tend to roll off the highs and lows more the quality ones). the rest is minor with tubes somewhere in there close to the top as well. the transformers are the most expensive components in a tube amp. power transformer, output transformer and choke if installed. |
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Thanks glenn for info. Yeah, I've been pleasantly surprised with 300B SET, seems that many people have the false assumption that 300B SET is automatically bad for anything non-flat 8ohm and less than 92db sensitivity. I started with NuPrime ID8, then B&K EX442, then Parasound Halo Integrated then Marantz HD-AMP1. So far my SET amp is the best performer among above (though no where nearly perfect). The biggest deficiency for 20% of my music recorded in full dynamic range 'classical/orchestral' is lack of power. Hence I'm looking for economy way to get more power for comparison. Thanks to mboldda1 and several others who've been recommending Mastesound, I'm just not quite ready to shell out $3000+tax without a great demo first hence still doing my research |
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@hifinubee "I’ve been reading that EL34 due to it’s design gets very close to 300B SET when wired in triode mode."
As someone who has built a number of tube amplifiers of varying types, and reached the point of holding several factors either constant or going in the same direction, I can tell you the folks writing those things are incorrect. The EL34 and 300B have VERY different characters. That holds up regardless of whether the EL34 runs in triode, ultralinear, or pentode operation. Some may try to draw parallels as the midrange of each tube represents its strength. That said, solid state / tube rectification, driver / phase splitter topology, and fixed / cathode bias make at least as much difference as the actual output tube.
Likewise, I disagree with folks who feel the 211, 805, or 845 represent the best sounding SETs. The 45, 2A3, and 300B, in that order generally grade out at the top of the more widely implemented types, though an obviously less sympathetic loudspeaker requires those larger tubes.
If I may, my suggestion is to hold on to the Dared 300B SET you like so much, and seek out a better partner in the loudspeaker
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hi mboldda1, i'm located around Seattle area.
trelja, how would you describe EL34 vs 300B? I listened to a Primaluna Dialouge Premium HP at local dealer through a pair of Living Voices Auditorium. Honestly while it was very good I wasn't completely floored, maybe my expectations too high. I've listened to other higher sensitivity speakers like Reference 3A and some giant single driver speaker (forget brand), still have yet to find something to steering me away from B&W 800 series yet... =( |
Keep the B and W speakers. Find the right amp configuration and you will
have a very nice system. These speakers are simply as good as the signal feeding them. Every time I have upgraded my system in any way my speakers show it immediately. I have the B and W 802 D3s.
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@hifinubee I would look at your auditions reflecting the refinement of taste you've achieved by having experienced good components and sound in your own system.
You've likely found yourself in the unfortunate position of loving two components that do not mate well together. I won't tell you which direction you should go, but in most circumstances a 300B SET driving a B&W loudspeaker will not show either component at its best.
Again, I think because both the EL34 and 300B excel in the midrange some may want to draw comparisons even if hearing them side by side in two amplifiers implemented as similarly as they can come to allow an apples to apples comparison produces starkly different sound. One can always find exception with what I say going forward, but except in less typical situations, these descriptions should hold up... The EL34 has a tighter, more focused, more extended, and less romantic sound than the 300B. The EL34 produces low-frequency extension that easily walks away from the 300B. And of course, there comes the issue of output; one can obviously build a high-powered amplifier running EL34 far more easily than the 300B. The right EL34 in the right amplifier can produce a stunningly glorious midrange that reminds one of sunshine itself. The 300B often creates a lush and luxurious sound, again focused on the midrange where 85% of the music lies, that only a couple of tubes can compete with. The 300B can paint the sort of beautiful colors no EL34 can. Both tubes do well in the treble, but if one finds a situation where things get a bit too hot, it will be the EL34 rather than the 300B.
More than comparing the two tubes, I mentioned other factors contributing to how an amplifier sounds. It's taken me a long time to walk down this road. Conventional wisdom often holds transformers represent the most critical aspect of a tube amplifier. I used to follow that as so many have said it, but experience has taught me the effects of the rest of the amplifier, and I now consider that overstated. More than obviously, we overlook the differences in SET versus push-pull operation holding the highest position, even when the latter employs triode connection of the output tubes. After that, fixed bias versus cathode bias yield something akin to yin and yang, though it's the other way around. Some may not relate to this analogy, but think of how different a Marshall JTM50 amplifier sounds from the VOX AC30; they show the classic nature of each topology. After that come the others on my list, transformers, rectification, and the driver / phase splitter. Most know about tube versus solid state rectification, but even within that, directly versus indirectly heated tube rectifiers produce noticeable differences. On the driver / phase splitter stage less complexity produces the most direct and insightful sound and vice versa. That's another advantage of SET as it has NO phase splitter, and the driver circuitry tends to the simplistic
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one more thing to consider is tube replacement cost 300b's are rather expensive compared to most other tube types. descent ones are $150 each and up lets not even talk about NOS 300b's |
There are some exotic and expensive SET amplifiers that might do justice to your speakers - such as the Kronzilla that uses a pair of T-1610 tubes. Otherwise, you are stuck with making a choice. |
The issue here appears to be that even though this system appears to work, as Trelja points out, neither the amp or speaker is being shown in its best light.
IOW, it can get a whole lot better, but to do so you either need a lot more power (not available from an SET) or get a speaker that is a good 10-12 db more efficient! This despite how good it seems to sound right now; but the OP is correct in his surmise that more power (or more efficiency) will help things out.
The problem is that SETs have bandwidth limits that get more pronounced with the greater power they can make. That is why the lower power units sound better.
BTW, there was one comment about push-pull having crossover distortion; this is not true in most cases. Crossover distortion is an artifact of class B operation, and to my knowledge no home audio gear employs class B, so that's a bit of a red herring. It is the most common complaint against push-pull, but as best I can make out, is mostly borne out of not understanding push-pull technology all that well.
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Thank you all for your thoughts so far. I love the clarity and transparency of 300B SET, guess this is the famous addiction. I'm holding off on moving to a used large Class A SS like Mark Levinson for now. Couple clarification I have for anyone who can help, - Based on my research, my next best option up would be to get a 300Bx4 parallel SET like Consonance Reference 5.5 MkII or a bigger triode like 845/805. Anyone with experience with sound quality of parallel SET or 845? Do 845 really give out space heater like heat? - Lots of people happy with 845 w/ only around 25watts claiming a good 845SET can drive most speaker, can anyone concur with such statement? - I've started pairing up my 300B SET with a subwoofer to help with 40hz and below base, I'm wondering if this is as good as it gets so I should just save my money and not further go down on another tube amp. - Do bigger and heavier tube amp transformer directly improve sound quality? Should I entertain more expensive 300B amps with heavier transformers like those from Sophia Electric? Thanks all.
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- I've started pairing up my 300B SET with a subwoofer to help with
40hz and below base, I'm wondering if this is as good as it gets so I
should just save my money and not further go down on another tube amp.
One of the prices you pay with higher power SETs is that they might play bass and they might play highs, but not both at the same time. The bigger the amp is, the more this is the case.
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Do bigger and heavier tube amp transformer directly improve sound
quality? Should I entertain more expensive 300B amps with heavier
transformers like those from Sophia Electric? Some transformers are potted, and so appear larger and heavier than they really are. Seriously, if you plan to keep your speakers, you'll have a lot more luck with an amp of considerably more power- and it won't be SET. |
Thanks my current budget is $2500 but willing to save up more and get something that makes sense down the road vs keep buying and selling. I'm just a regular white collar Joe so naturally I'm trying to spend as little as possible. If I'm to abandon SET, then I would be going to some tube amp with 8x output tubes making 100watt or a used Mark Levinson Class A or Classe CAP2100 in Class AB or PS Audio M700 and similar Class D equivalent. I love clear, transparent but warm sound (hate neutral). Only few people may agree but I firmly believe good sound comes from high current not high watts even though inter-related to some degree. High watt doesn't automatically means high quality sound, driving the B&W805 with a 160watt Marantz AV amp vs 35watt Marantz HD-AMP1 vs 8watt 300B SET is my real life example of how sound quality comes out inversely proportional to wattage rating.
Again thanks to all who's helping me on my quest to higher current! =)
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AVR watts are generally not the best quality since the purpose is mostly for home theatre applications. If you're willing to go the used route, for $2500 you should be able to get a decent but older McIntosh 2channel amplifier, with Autoformers, and get the warm/transparent sound you're looking for.
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Only few people may agree but I firmly believe good sound comes from
high current not high watts even though inter-related to some degree. @hifineubeeThere really isn't any such thing as 'high current'; that's a bit of story created by solid state amp manufacturers. Current does not exist without voltage, and together the two are power. Its a mathematical relationship! The reason 'neutral' (usually solid state, as opposed to 'warm') might seem unpleasant is due to how the amp distorts. In the case of solid state, the distortion seems minimal, but to the ear it is not, as the distortion in question is all higher ordered harmonics, to which the ear is keenly sensitive (the ear uses these harmonics to sense sound pressure, so has to be able to deal with 140db range, hence the sensitivity). So 0.0x% numbers in solid state amps are easily audible, heard as brightness and harshness. Tube amps generally don't make as much higher ordered harmonics and so sound smoother and more detailed. Tubes usually do make more distortion overall, but its mostly lower orders and the ear simply is less sensitive to the lower orders. In a way, you can argue that tubes more closely adhere to the rules of human hearing perception. In a nutshell. I'd be looking at something with 60 watts or so. You can find amps of that power inside of your budget, and that is significantly more power (and likely lower distortion and wider bandwidth too) than what you are running right now- you'll notice the improvement instantly! |
Thanks Kalali and atmasphere, good tips. |
@hifinubee based on your recent posts you seem willing to go in a different direction with the amplifier. I take it that means, given the choice, you prefer to keep the B&W loudspeakers?
SETs appeal to a lot of people. They often then start a quest to chase down a sympathetic loudspeaker to mate with them. I understand you really like the B&W, but I think it's easier to find a loudspeaker that works for you than another type of tube amplifier. If you do want a warm sound in a more powerful tube amplifier you may want to consider some of the BAT, Cary, Conrad Johnson, Jadis, and Quicksilver push-pull offerings. That said, in going there you likely give up what draws you to your current SET amplifier.
Coincidentally, I was the North American importer for Consonance. Just to clarify, the Reference 5.5 used only 2 X 300B per channel, and as its not at all a powerful amplifier, would not much more than you already have. If you want to go in the PSE direction, I recommend the Cyber 300B PSE monoblocks as a much better alternative, but still won't meet your current needs, as they are also seriously deficient in the low-end. Consonance also produced 211 (great midrange, not much low-end) and 845 (good low-end, overly dark and veiled midrange) versions of the Cyber monoblocks, which work best with back-loaded horn loudspeakers. As I previously stated, neither of those larger tubes produce what people like so much about 300B amplifiers. SETs have ridden this popularity wave for more than 20 years, and with it, the larger tubes. So many people have found themselves in the same situation as you, loving the lower wattage amplifiers, but wishing for more output to adequately drive their loudspeakers. If the larger SETs represented the solution, they would have already caught on in a big way. As things are, the 300B handily outsells them, for good reason. To provide acceptable power and bass response, you may also want to consider push-pull triode amplifiers, using 300B, or even better, 2A3 tubes
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Sophia Electric has some sick 300B mono blocks..... |
If you are willing to give up the SET topology yet stay with the 300B tube, Canary Audio has a number of push pull amps that will drive your speakers.
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An amplifier that operates push-pull with 300bs is likely not in the budget as proposed. I suspect that the amplifier that will be used will be an ultralinear amp based on 6550s/KT88s.
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thanks trelja for the first hand feedback on Consonance amps!
thanks for everyone else's continual feedbacks, so many choices... so little money... sob sob |
Suggest you reach out to @aricaudio and see if he can be of help. All the best. |
@hifinubee thank you for the kind words.
As a suggestion, you may want to seek out a Consonance Cyber 10 Signature. It's an integrated amplifier, using 2A3 triode output tubes in push-pull configuration, and a Mullard long tail pair driver stage. Not a huge number exist, as the amplifier looks all wrong on paper. It's a product I had to work harder than any other to sell, as everyone (including myself) dismisses it out of hand without even a listen, but I believed in it that much after hearing it and living with it. I imported enough of them that they come up here and there on Audiogon, USA Audio Mart, and eBay. Typical pricing ranges from $500 - $900. It's a deceptively wonderful amplifier, and in my experience, one of their best products across board. I realize most find it hard to believe, but at just 11 watts per channel, it can drive the typical loudspeaker with authority, excellent low-end output, and a seductively sweet tone. They also produced a more or less identical, more expensive version
using the 300B tube producing 22 watts per channel, called the Cyber
100S Signature. It lacked the seat of the pants power, bass response,
and magic of the 2A3 amplifier. The Cyber 10 Signature 2A3 ran just about stride for stride in terms of loudness, power, and oomph with the 35 watt EL34 / 40 watt KT88 Cyber 100 Signature amps
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As others have said, you need to choose which component to keep—-the 300B SET or the B&W—-and then move from there. I would just add that if you keep the speakers you don’t have to go to a Levinson behemoth. You can stay with tubes with the B&Ws, you just need to try a higher-powered push-pull Tube amp. A p-p 300B amp like a VAC might be an ideal way to get (nearly) the best of both worlds. But I would also recommend p-p EL-34 amps.
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thanks trelja and salectric
@trelja, I've also actually been eyeing Consonance Cyber880A with 2A3x8 in pp. But doesn't going to pp design automatically cancel out the crystal clear clarify signature of SET? I have no experience with triode tube in pp, can you share your experience? I read that there's a newer 2A3C tube that's a tuned down 300B with lower 2.5V plate watt but still makes 8watt. Do you know if 2A3C can be drop in replacement for 2A3?
@salectric, I've also contemplating El34x8 pp as meaning next step up. Do you know what's the sonic difference between a 300B in parallel SET PSET and pp? 300B makes about similar 18-22watt in these configuration. PSET is very rare vs PP is much easier to find.
thanks both |
@hifinubee it looks like you’ve picked the B&W loudspeakers over the Dared 300B amplifier?
The Shuguang 2A3C may be my favorite current production non-exotic output tube. For just a few dollars, we transitioned from the 2A3B to 2A3C with the Consonance Cyber 10 Signature, and it proved an instant upgrade. Again, I recommend you seek out one of those integrated amplifiers. The tube worked anywhere I’ve used it without issue, and provided excellent sound. I have seen it not physically fit into some amplifiers because of its noticeably larger glass envelope / bulb. As much as I love the 2A3, it doesn't offer enough power to make a usable SET amplifier in the way a 300B does. Run it in push-pull configuration, and it can drive the typical loudspeaker, and I believe definitely leaps over the 300B.
The Cyber 880A would have no trouble driving your B&Ws, and certainly offers good sound. As you said, you’re getting away from the SET sound with it. Not only does it use a push-pull output stage, but the Mullard long-tail pair driver moves at least two steps up in complexity from the typical SET, and as I’ve said, most often, the simpler the amplifier, the more immediate the sound. That’s a huge part of the SET magic, the simplest output tubes used in the simplest output stage, and normally driven by a very simple circuit.
The other issue I have with this amplifier is now you’re talking serious money, and more than double your target price. Of course, if you can find a used one, that might fit. I don’t think higher priced Chinese amplifiers make sense from the standpoint of economics or logic today. The market seems to agree, as I don’t see anyone moving anything in this realm beyond the midrange price point. Since I no longer represent the brand in North America, customers have no support, service, safety net, etc., and so the brand pretty much disappeared from this market outside of re-badging their solid state amps and CD players as Hegel. The current Consonance importer operates more or less as an order taker, and the factory in China drop ships directly to the customer. The customer gets to pay substantially more for the simple task of a middleman invoicing the purchase. It’s lose - lose, and a poor way to do business on all levels in my mind
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I have never heard a single-ended amp with DHT output tubes in parallel (PSET). I have read that putting a pair of DHT tubes like 2A3 or 300B in parallel tends to move the sound away from the SE sound and towards a push-pull sound, but that is only secondhand, not based on experience.
i can say from experience that I prefer the sound of a very high quality push-pull amp to the SE DHT amps I have heard. By very high quality PP, I mean something like a custom amp using Western Electric 350B outputs and vintage transformers or Emotive Audio Vita amps with KT-120 outputs. (I own the Vita amps.) |
hifineubee
Make your life easy and get a pair of 300b friendly speakers. They won't sound so anal and you won't feel the need for a subwoofer.
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Please allow me to provide a slightly different perspective. I am not a big fan of the 300B, or maybe it's that I haven't yet heard a 300B amp that rang my bell. Anyway, was looking for a new SET amp and ran across Radu Tarta's website: https://simplepleasuretubeamps.wordpress.com/2017/12/02/shiny-eyes-se-ul-el34-6sl7-tube-amplifier/Long story short, I ended up purchasing Radu's single-ended EL34 amp and one of his DHT preamps. I couldn't be happier with the sound, the build quality is second to none and rolling EL34 tubes is a lot easier and more affordable than 300Bs. At some point I'm going to ask Radu to make me a 45 amp for my office. Then I'll be in the clover. |
@hifineubee Have you considered the Line Magnetic 508ia? 805 tubes driven off 300B’s. 48 watts/channel of SET goodness, cheaper and is preferred to the LM 219ia in some circles. (Greater dynamics, stronger bass)
But then again, probably not the most ideal pairing for your current speakers.
I tried my 508 with my 88db Totem Element Embers and wasn't too impressed with the paring. The bottom end was weak and they sucked a lot of power.
But then again, I ran for quite awhile on some 88db Jamo towers with dual 6.5's woofers and was shocked every time at how great they sounded.
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Thanks for everyone's continuous suggestions. I ended up doing two things in the past two days. I got a EL34B PP with triode / ultralinear mode capability on sale from Amazon just so I can try things out on the cheap as experiment. My dad who got started me on hifi with his B&W 802 Matrix back in 1985 came to visit me for July 4th, he also liked the Dared VP300B SET and we've decided to take a leap of faith with the Dared VP845 SET. I look forward to shared my experiment results later if anyone's interested. =)
@hfaddict, I didnt look into the Line Magntic 508, as a matter of fact been ogling at a used unit on eBay. But I feel price is a bit too high. Someday I may try a 805 tube if 845 turns out a good experience. If you have the budget, PSVANE besides making tubes also makes a pair of 805 monoblocks that weigth 100lbs each. Seems very tempting for a try... |
@hifineubee Beautiful amp. Best of luck! |
So what solution did you end up with? If none so far, then let me be your humble advisor. I’ve been an hi-fi audiophile for 50 years and I’ve had a lot of medium priced gear. Tubes as Well as ss. You have a nice set of speakers, but in order to get The Best out of Them, my advice would be to go for a
chunky second hand quality ss integrated Class A amp. Here you get The warm Sound Combined with The muscles your speakers deserve. As you Americans say ...nothing beats cubic! |
I have 805 D3's. I drive them with a clone Firstwatt M2x (from diyaudio.com) using the Ishikawa input stage (genuine Toshiba JFETs). For a pre, I use the Korn Nutube B1 (also from diyaudio.com). I use SoundID from Sonarworks for room correction, because my room is a very odd shape and forces me to have one speaker in a corner and the other not. Most of my listening is near field.
I have loved SET using a homemade 300B (from tubelab.com) driving Foster full range kits from Madisound. I loved SET so much, I will return to it when I have room for large horn speakers.
The sound from this current system has much of the depth and all of the imaging I loved from the SET. It lacks a touch of warmth; the kind of warmth that's so magical, it makes one forget they're missing an octave or two on the top and bottom :) However, this may be an avenue you wish to pursue with your speakers, as total cost will be under $3k and comes with the satisfaction of building it yourself.
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As someone who started out with tube experience in guitar amplifiers I have always found EL-34s to be a good tube to drive to power tube distortion in a cranked Marshall amp. They lack bass compared to a 6L6GC.....anyway never have been interested in them for hifi stereo.
I have a chifi 300B/845 amp (Muzishare R100 845) that I tried out for a while. Definitely more bass punch than SET 300B amps. But the heat that thing thru off could heat the house and too much in the California climate. And I did not find it more resolving or any other benefit other than more power. (I will gladly sell it if anyone wants and amp around 100lbs!) It's basically dual mono blocks fit into a single chassis (4 transformers).
For 300B I ended up with the Icon Audio Stereo 300 MKII which employs a quartette of 300Bs in what I believe is parallel single ended mode adjustable fixed bias...not sure maybe it is some kind of push-pull...have not seen a circuit diagram. The manufacturer just says the 6SN7s run is cascode mode.
Well it has plenty of power and good grip on the bass. I use it with Klipsch Forte IVs and rarely turn it up past 10% unless I want my wife to start yelling at me.
I think there are a few other 300B quartettes out there...maybe Cayin. Check them out. I prefer to the larger space heater 845 or 805s (you need to add solar panels on your roof to run them unless you want to pay $1k for electricity every month).
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