I also had some problem with the optical input to the EE DAC. From the optical output either an Apple Airport (a later jitter-prone model) and/or a Macbook. Don't recall the specifics of which was problematic or if it was both. |
My experience with using an Oppo 80 as a transport, as well as my MacMini>Hiface, showed the Oppo to be a decent transport except the EE didn't like the optical out from the Oppo. I experienced drop-outs. The EE liked the coaxial. I don't know if the Oppo has a lot of jitter that the EE can't handle, or a problem with the optical inputs on the EE, or the Oppo is defective. Doesn't matter to me since I switched the Mac to BNC and used the coax input for the Oppo. Now I am using a Sony SACD player with optical into the EE with no dropouts. So, I am blaming the Oppo for the mismatch, not the EE. I moved from a PS Audio DLIII to the EE and am ecstatic. I have now had it for 2 months and every day I listen to it, I smile! Wonderful sound. |
it is my observation that the ee dac is not tube sensitive. while changes will occur when subsituting different tubes, i believe the chnages are small and not significant. |
Hi - I have the same question (and the same gear)as an earlier poster - anybody listen to a pioneer blu-ray with the EE? I'd be interested in how this would sound with redbook cd as the primary source.
Thanks all. |
I have tried Telefunken smooth plates, GE BP Triple Micas and Mullards Box Plates. The Box plates a way more musical than any tube I have tried. The Teles were fantastic in a previous pre-amp but were very disappointing in the EE. The soundstage disappeared but the imaging was sharp and precise. The GE improved the soundstage and the mullards really excelled in overall musicality, imaging and soundstaging. |
i had both dacs but did not compare them directly. considering the relative prices, i bought the ee dac and was not at all impressed with the neko dac.
i'm not criticizing any aspect of the performance of the neko dac, but there was nothing outstanding about it.
the ee dac is very versatile and offers the opportunity to use at least two different 12 volt tubes, namely 12au7 and 12atz. note, the section of the ee dac that useses a tube is a gain stage not a buffer stage. be careful of the gain of the tube you use. i am not sure that a 12ax7 would work as well, as it is a higher gain tube than a 12au7. you might also try a 12ay7.
i had the opportunity to buy the neko dac, reviewed it and sent it back. you can read my review on audiophilia.com.
my system is a bit attenuated in the highs, so i am currently using an rca 12at7. |
Mrtennis,
How would you compare the EE Dac to the Neko Audio D100? I know the latter is much pricier, but if the EE comes close to its performance it's a real bargain in my book. |
there have been allusions to the house sound of the ee dac. i found that with certian tube gear, the sound was on the warm side.
you can seee what equipment i used on audiophilia.com . |
I will keep updating the review if there are changes. I lose track of all the other conversations. |
Hi - I'm wondering if anyone has used the EE dac with a blu-ray player as a transport - I have a pioneer bd-05fd that plays cd and bluray and wanted to know if the EE dac would improve the sound of my pioneer - especialy playing redbook cd thanks, mike |
Thanks Art! Keep posting until break in is over. Posted a question on the review. Where shall we keep posting, here or there? |
I got so into it that I posted a review on 'gon.
See:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?rdgtl&1286673518&openusid&zzArtmaltman&4&&
Art |
Thanks Artmaltman, I look forward to reading your comments as you put some more 'break-in' hours to your EE Dac. |
The EE DAC playing out of my SB Touch - getting signal via wifi from MacBook Pro, Apple Lossless - so far is in the same league as my Cary 308T. It has a slightly different mix of attributes and I'd probably say the Cary leads by a small margin to ME because I value coherence over detail and sound-staging. EE Dac sounds very natural. BTW i'm using tube output stage exclusively. I tried the SS output stage for around 90 seconds. SS output is very slightly less veiled and very slightly more mechanical.
Caution: EE DAC does seem very cable-sensitive. |
If the Eastern Electric comes close to the performance of the Neko Audio D100, I must say we have a real winner on our hands! |
Ask me again Sunday evening. Comparing the EE Dac to my Cary 308T is one of my primary tasks for this weekend.
And how momentous this is!
Do I need a cd player from now on for my high end sound?
Alas my wifi has been very flakey recently so.... it may not just be a matter of sonics.
Based purely on memory, I'd say the EE Dac (prior to break-in) is incredibly natural sounding with deep tight bass, a lot of detail and good authority. It is a little more neutral than my Cary 308T tubed cd player, and more detailed, but a tad more mechanical sounding or etched in the treble. That could be a function of break-in or just what you get with neutrality.
Yes, based on my experience so far, it is going to be a horse race, and that is a very high complement to the EE DAC indeed. |
Artmaltman, how would you compare it to your Cary CD player. |
I just got a new one last night and played it for a few hours. It is extremely nice, and definitely an increment over the SB Touch analog outs.
Art |
i have several reference recording hi rez dvrs. the hi rez format seems to render timbre and space more like a live concert than its redbook counterpart. you can read my review on audiophilia.com . |
...I'll look for an opportunity to compare Redbook to Hi-Rez in a controlled test. Good! I look forward to reading about your experiences. |
I can see where my previous comment can be misconstrued; I do listen to streaming audio on the big rig, and I did work with it extensively with the Sonos review. However, I try to use music from my collection for reviewing, as I feel it sounds better for assessment.
I'm finding the quality of streaming audio through the Minimax to be so good that I am prepared to start using it as a source. But no doubt I'll look for an opportunity to compare Redbook to Hi-Rez in a controlled test. |
Joaco, ok, if we want to get technical, let's call what's happening to the bits in upsampling interpolation. Interpolation is adding something which wasn't in the original. Perhaps that is a clean enough explanation. :)
I do agree that the value of the EE DAC should not be lost on technical discussions, but center around its sound. It's quite the bargain. |
My bad, I thought that when you said "Alternatively, theres a lot of incentive to gravitate toward music websites like Rhapsody, or one of my new favorites, Lastfm.com; the final outcome as treated by the Minimax is theoretically better than your typical Hi Rez sound!" that you meant that the final outcome (of listening to lossy mp3s from Rhapsody or Lastfm)as treated by the Minimax is theoretically better than your typical Hi Rez sound.
-Mike |
Mike, I don't use MP3 as an audiophile source, and not testing it I wouldn't include it in my suggestion of the DAC's performance. I'm curious to test out our discussion going forward. Yes, good conversation. |
Doug,
Why do you say "New info is being added when going from 16/44.1 to 24/192" when upsampling?
I absolutely disagree with that statement. That is not what happens when upsampling. It´s not impossible but it´s not what happens. If you wanted, you could write an algorithm to insert/create "average" information between 2 points but it wouldn´t be true to the original analog signal before it entered the first ADC. It would only be a guess of what probably might have happened.
You can´t "rescue" bits that aren´t there or that have been taken out.
Upsampling is about another thing. It´s not about having more information but, as I understand it, making it "easier" for the DAC to process.
Making a parallel between audio and visual, having a DAC accepting more bits is like having a LCD TV being able to reproduce more colours. And, having a DAC accepting a higher sample rate would be like a TV being able to receive a higher rate of frames per second. So, if you have a HD TV and feed it with a Bluray, you will be able to appreciate perfect visual definition. But, if you feed it with cable TV or even a conventional DVD, it will look worse, not the same as a Bluray! The processing in the HD TV might help to make it look better than in a common TV but it won´t look the same as a Bluray just because Bluray has lots more information.
I think the discussion is valuable but I wouldn´t like the thread to turn into a tech discussion and stay about the EE DAC. Much better to have comments about experiences listening to it! |
Hi Doug, Thanks for the reply,
You are correct that I haven't been able to compare redbook vs. hi-rez directly, but I have heard many hi-rez sources and they certainly do things better than most any of my redbook sources, which clearly sound better than the lossy MP3s I listen to frequently (the Linn Jazz/Radio/Classical streams at 320 k sound very good). None of the 256 K or 128 K stations I frequent sound as good as the 320 Linns. (through Logitech Touch into EE dac)
IMHO I feel that you overstated the similarity of lossy MP3 vs. redbook vs. hi-rez sources.
Great dac though, that's for sure. I'd encourage you to seek out some true hi-rez material (there was a free download of Stravinsky's History of a Soldier (sorry if that's not a perfect translation) and it's superb).
As good as you think you've heard from the dac, I can assure you there's more to be had if you try some hi-rez material.
Thanks for the friendly banter!
-Mike |
i have a reference recording 24/172 sampler and listened to one of the tracks, rachmaninoff symphonic dances, thru the minimax, mentioned in my review (audiophilia.com), which sounded stunnning, better than most other discs i have heard.
according to bill of morningstar audio, the dac will output 24/176. |
Mike, If you haven't used the same signal path, then it cannot be said definitively that the Hi-Rez through the Minimax is superior. One would have to feed the Hi-Rez files through the exact same pathway/equipment & cables to conclude that. That is why I used the same player/pathway to experiment.
In the article I do say:
This fairly makes Hi Rez downloads a moot feature. If Hi Rez streams at 24 bits, but one can take plain old streaming audio at 16 bits and get the same result, theres not much incentive to pursue costly downloads. Alternatively, theres a lot of incentive to gravitate toward music websites like Rhapsody, or one of my new favorites, Lastfm.com; the final outcome as treated by the Minimax is theoretically better than your typical Hi Rez sound! I say theoretically, as I have not actually compared Hi Rez files to those upgraded by the Minimax. However, there is no mistaking the upgrade to the sound of even a 24 bit signal from a Redbook player.
(Back to discussion) Two points: 1. My main contention is that the powerful upsampling and gorgeous result from the EE will so please most people, except for the hardest of hard-core audiophiles, that they simply won't care; they'll be quite content with the result from mere streaming audio versus paying for Hi-Rez downloads. 2. I do say "...theoretically", and "...if", so, if you say there's a big difference, I believe you. BUT, is your comment based on a tight test or another "theoretically"? :)
I'll see if I can't experiment. However, to run a true test I'd need an identical recording save for the bit/frequency, as well as a source which can accommodate both.
As to your struggling with the upsampling, the EE DAC is simply taking 24/192 upsampling to a new level. New info is being added when going from 16/44.1 to 24/192, and the Minimax is doing the same thing at a higher performance level. I had both Morningstar Audio and ESS Technology proof the article for technical corrections, so I'm fairly certain my analysis is good. :) |
OK, just quickly reread the review. I see that you were simply playing redbook material that had either been upsampled to 24/192 or left at 16/44. This is completely different from comparing 16/44 vs. higher-rez data. No suprize to me that 16/44 that is internally upsampled in the Sabre sounds the same as 16/44 upsampled to 24/192 and then further upsampled by the Sabre sounds the same. It's essentially the same data.
On my quick re-read, I did not see that you actually listened to any hi-rez data, yet you surmize that hi-rez has now been rendered moot by the existence of 32 bit dacs.
You should really listen to hi-rez through this thing before commenting that there is no advantage to using hi-rez files vs. 16/44.
-Mike |
Doug,
No, nothing that I could know came from the same master. I'll have to reread the review to see if/how you accomplished this. It just seems like most everything I have in high-rez has a walk-around/walk-through soundstage that I rarely if ever get from 16/44 sources. Tonally they are very close but spatially far apart, no idea why.
I still don't understand how the use of a 32 bit dac can add info to a 16/44 file that is present in a higher bit rate/bit depth source. I appreciate your reporting your experience as you experienced it.
Great dac, though, that's for sure! |
Mike, did you have an identical pathway for the 16/24 bit comparison? |
hi mike:
i did briefly hook up a tube preamp but did not notice much of a difference in performance, so i discontinued its use and did not mention it. |
Doug - The 24/48 or 24/96 files I play through my EE dac sound significantly better than redbook. I just don't see how the dac can create additional data simply because it's 32 bit. Calling for the death of high-rez digital because we have 32 bit dacs now is just silly, IMO.
Mr T. - In your review I think I saw that you use a passive pre - The dac has a very high output impedence from the tube stage (22K) - I was wondering if you tried it with an active pre, and if not I suggest that you might not have heard all that this little wonder can do.
-Mike |
in addition to the fact that other parts affect the performance of the dac, haveing a 32 bit chip does not guqrantee superior sound. there are other dacs using 32 bit chips, that may not outperofrm dacs having 16 or 24 bit chips.
i liked the minimax and will buy it . the tube provides flexibility to "shape" its sound. |
Joaco, Thanks for your comments; I am impressed with the ESS chip, as are many others. I think the EE DAC is a great expression of its capabilities. I also agree that the chip alone cannot make a great DAC and the Minimax has a fine output stage, but my point is that one cannot achieve the new standard of sound quality without it.
As to the ability of the DAC to make 16 bit and 24 bit sound similar, I can only point to my tests with varying outputs from players. I was quite surprised that I heard no distinction between them. Unless the players really were outputting only 16/44.1 then the chip does what I suggest, makes 16 and 24 bit sound alike at 32 bit. One of the most powerful aspects of the Sabre technology is the dramatic reduction of noise floor, which allows one to hear "deeper" into the music without grunge. It's quite a dramatic difference from 24 bit. |
i recently reviewed the dac on audiophilia.com.
i welcome your feedback. |
Guys,
Not sure if you have discovered that the Dac phase switch should be lit red for better sound quality! Found out by accident last night and WOW, what a difference! |
Doug,
I read your review. You were blown by the DAC! I´d like to listen to it myself.
If you don´t mind, I disagree with some of your thoughts. I don´t think a 32 bit DAC makes 16 bit recordings equal to 24 bit recordings at same sample frequency! A 24 bit recording has much more information in it! The fact that a 32 bit DAC can make both recordings 32 bit doesn´t mean they´ll have the same information. The original 24 bit recording will still have lots of more information after conversion and, therefore, will sound much more real.
I think that the conversion to 32 bits is not the only thing that makes the EE DAC special. Actually, the DAC is limited to 24 bit 96KHz at the receiver and is only upsampled to 32 bit 192 KHz at the DAC chip. I´m not even sure it´s what makes the Sabre chip special. The Sabre chip also is very jitter imune and has great performance.
The EE DAC is also said by Alex Yeung, Bill at Morningstar and many others to have a really great output stage apart from the DAC chip. The tube output stage being generally preffered.
If I misunderstood your review or you think different, please don´t get upset, lets discuss. |
Jazzybs, I'll have to look into that! Shoot me an email to discuss. |
Doug,
Are you planning to reveiw the Alona HDMI decoder, and running Blu-ray and SACD converted PCM streams into the Minimax DAC? and unearthing the Holy Grail in the process!! |
I wasn't saying much, though I would have liked to. My article has just been published on Dagogo, and suffice to say I find the Minimax DAC quite enjoyable.
I do not think most people understand the importance of the development of the ESS ES9018 Sabre Reference 32 bit chip. Not all chips are created equal, not even ESS chips. One needs to pay attention to that fact.
I point out in my article how I feel the Sabre chip's performance in DACs like the Minimax will negatively influence Hi Rez downloads. In my observation, the playing field has shifted... again. |
reviews here...
http://www.stereomojo.com/Eastern%20Electric%20MiniMax%20DAC%20Review/EasternElectricMiniMaxDACReview.htm |
I am a current owner of the EE DAC. I have also owned the Peachtree Nova Amp./DAC. This is the primary reason that I bought the EE DAC, The NOVA is a piece of Chinese shit as an amplifier (and build quality for that matter), but the NOVA DAC is fantastic.
As a point of reference, I have also owned the following DAC's: Benchmark DAC1, Audio Note 1.1, Audio Note Kit 2.0, modified Scott Nixon Tube DAC, Beresford 7520, modified Lite DAC AH, and the Birdland Odeon-Ag.
Of these DAC's, the Nova and Birdland Odeon-Ag are both similar sonically to the EE DAC. I'm not sure I could note a difference at all between the Nova and EE, and between the Birdland and the EE, I wouldn't say one was better than the other, just a very slightly different presentation.
I had the opportunity to directly A/B the Benchmark to the EE in my home. This was interesting. As soon as I switched to the EE after just listening to several tracks with the warmed up Benchmark, it was like taking a breath of air and relaxing! The detail of the Benchmark is maintained, but there is a very subtle linkage between notes that is VERY appealing to the ear. It is a very dark, full, liquid sound, which is definitely what I like (the rest of my system consists of an Audio Note Oto amp. and Audio Note AN-J speakers).
The tube / SS switch is interesting, I prefer the tube output, it sounds a bit more alive to my ears, but at the expense of a bit of noise compared to SS. I have rolled a few $50 or so NOS tubes in it and frankly the stock tube is about as good as any of the others. I currently have a nice NOS Mullard in it, but it doesn't really sound any different to me compared to the stock tube.
On build quality, I will say that the unit is far heavier than I expected. Ergonomically, there are things that scream "Chinese aesthetics": The lightweight knobs (very cheap feeling), the on/off switch that does not always turn fully engage for me the first time, and the dizzying array of different colored LED's on the front panel, it is a bit tuner-car looking if truth be told. Oh, and one more thing, the tube socket is impossibly tight, and it is in a little cutout that is near impossible to jam two fingers into to remove the tube, so tube rolling is not so easy as with most units.
At any rate, these mechanical things aside, I have had the unit for a month or so now, and I love the sound of it, and it's a keeper.
I don't think EE has re-invented the wheel here, they basically just stuffed the current best DAC chip on the planet into a standalone DAC and priced it competitively, but all of that being said, the Sabre 9018 DAC chip is CLEARLY, to my ears, the current champion.
P.S. - Bill at Morningstar is a first class guy to deal with, friendly, very good communications and quick shipping. |
i have the sabre dac and will be reviewing it. have patience. |
There's a short mention of the EE DAC over at 6moons just posted today in the review of the Wyred DAC. Not much since it was a short comparo to the Wyred.
Kinda of hint. |
Any new experiences or comparisons by anyone? |
Njs,
I'm with you on finding the Squeezeboxes to be inferior transports to cd players. I felt my stock Touch was bested by a modest Philips 963SA I had on hand feeding my Minimax DAC.
That said, I have since thrown a regulated PSU (Bolder modified elpac) and had the Bolder digital mods done to my Touch and it blows the 963SA out of the water as a transport. Feeding my Minimax its the best digital I've heard and at a bargain basement price.
The bargain basement price part may be going away soon though as I'm tempted by Bolder's upcoming EE DAC mods which will probably be pretty darn spendy.... |
Could anyone compare the new Wyred DAC 1 with the new EE DAC? They apparently use the same Sabre chip. Do they have similar USB inputs for handling hi-rez digital files? The specs in the EE website are not very explicit to me. Thanks. |
Joaco, I apologize if I sounded annoyed, I wasn't.
I should have made clear that I've reconfigured my main system, so I don't expect to have the Cary back in anytime soon. Indeed, I should have tried it as a transport when I had the chance, I just didn't think of it.
I think the Cary is a terrific player and, as Njs reported above, I bet it would serve as a better transport than the Touch. But that's just a guess.
If I ever try it that way, I'll report it here. |
Steidlguitars, that´s the post I read from you, the one you said you hadn´t compared them but "If I ever have them together in the same rig again, I'll be sure to do that".
Over two weeks have passed since that and was just wondering if you had tried. Please don´t get annoyed. I won´t ask again. |
