Durand record weight ha ha ha ha - and other crazy thing
I heard that a Durand record weight costs 3500 USD. - that is just bonkers - we are truly entering the twilight zone of hi-fi - sorry. can anyone else think of similarly stupid products
Ct - you can play your instruments at mine anytime - not surre if the wife will approve though - LOL Dalby Audio - crazy stuff... I for one, believe it or not, am not overly critical of such expenditure in all fairness. As one poster said (massively paraphrasing) it may just be an addition to make once you have done all others. I am truly curious as to the mindset of someone who does get this kind of thing. Many/most people outside audio think it preposterous to spend oer £100 on a cartridge (or needle as they call it) - I have a cartridge that cost me north of £2000 - and I have heard many others that have me asking questions of my bank balance. I guess that I threw this topic in, perhaps a tad flippantly, as it is simply nice to discuss with others what they appreciate, prioritise, and why that is the case. By way of example, I got into turntables post flat earth/Sondek - I was prejudiced against Linn decks. I heard one kitted out in FunkFirm mods and it was superb. Likewise we have lovers of Idlers, again - heard a nice Lenco and again impressed - I can see the appeal. The list goes on with things like active speakers, single ended flea powered amps, etc... I find that speaking to the people who get and use such items helps one expand ones understanding of products out there, and what may effectively improve your system, or even appreciation of music. I personally never understood imaging until I heard some Avante Garde Horns fronting a GT Audio amp and DPS turntable.
ct0517, If your TT has an air-bearing/platter, I regret my previous remark, as I have no personal experience with one. In that case, I could certainly understand a much different outcome.
I was just trying to make known that when using my different weights/clamps on the same lp, I hear a difference. If I'm listening to a recording that has an overall warmth that suppresses detail or dynamics, I go with my stock VPI center weight as a replacement for my Stillpoints LP-1. (Of course, I'm referring to the use of flat lps.) I don't think one can say there is a "best" clamp/weight for every tt out there and for every recording out there. I tend to use them more as a tuning mechanism. The other point to my post was having the ability to try other options out for oneself.
( I'm not sure what geoffkait's reference above to my previous post that includes my total posts is suppose to mean. I'll leave it up to him to explain if he so chooses.)
As far as ct0517's remark from his TT's manufacturer.. well, I did not find any relevance.
Astro58go I just saw your comment. Allow me to elaborate better. I like talking shop even though I am not in audiophile mode anymore. Would however prefer tech talk be brought to a general thread..
Lets acknowledge that with a record weight/clamp at least 2 things can be affected.
1) The TT performance itself - the gear aspect.
2) The musicians recorded performance on the lp. If your record is coupled well to the platter well (no slipping), whether you are using a weight or not, the presentation of the music should be good. Unless it is Kind of Blue :^) or other lp that has known speed issues.
Prior to my communications with the manufacturer I was up to that point familiar only with traditional mechanical bearing turntables. And, in my experiences to that point the bearing type played a big part in what we hear due to its resonances - especially with a record weight/clamp that is coupled to the spindle. For example - change just the bearing type (material) the presentation changes. Change the fluid the bearing sloshes around in and again the presentation changes again. Both 1 and 2 above can be affected by this. Anyone that has changed out the bearing material or its fluid viscosity has heard this. Likewise using a good record, lets say flat to the eye and not visually off centered, does not slip based on what you hear; the use of different record weights/clamps changes the overall TT sonic presentation - with mechanical bearing TT's. Tweaking - imagine the possibilities for the audiophile.
Now I did not understand what the manufacturer meant until I experienced it personally myself. Magnetic and also air bearings ( I base this on my tonearm) provide a level of isolation over a traditional mechanical bearing. So the effects of a record weight itself not as evident in the "Gears" overall sonic presentation - category 1. Using a record weight/clamp became just a process to couple a record better to the platter to realize better recorded performance in the music - category 2. Not as much to tune the overall sonic performance of the turntable. My experience.
Hopefully that explains better where I was coming from with the comments. Either way enjoy your journey.
rogerabbit 7 posts 09-05-2016 2:01pm To: geoffkait
"You couldn’t use this or any other clamp on a CD player because of the weight.
The CD mechanism is not designed for this."
I beg to differ, Mr. Rabbit. The Sony SACD player (I forget the model number) actually comes with a relatively heavy brass weight. Surely there are others. Besides all CD transports rattle like hell. They should do SOMETHING.
astro58go 185 posts 09-04-2016 2:34pm I find that the need for a record weight's make-up is due to each individual recordings' misgivings, not the TT one plays that record on.
It might be a good idea at this point to mention that certain materials - such as ebony -act as resonators and therefore mechanically gripping the ebony weight to the record kind of defeats the whole purpose. Ebony should be allowed to resonate. It’s a natural material. It breathes. I actually used to sell ebony turntable weights way back when.
What I decided to do a while back is... try things (out for myself).
So, I have a couple of outbuildings on my property. I invested in the appropriate woodworking machinery, so I can try these things for myself.
Some may say "I don't have the space, or I don't have the time". It all depends on one's abilities and one's priorities..
If one has 2/3rds of these requirements... go for it!
As far as ct0517's remark from his TT's manufacturer.. well, I did not find any relevance.
For instance, I have a couple of VPI's center weights. I'm going to machine in some threaded holes to accept differing materials. I have some carbon fiber, some Ebony Gaboon, etc..
Upon listening to these without the benefit of a mechanically bond, there is a real difference. Though, it is apparent that an appropriate mechanical bond will give me the exact means of what I'm hearing vs. the exchange of material. There is NO other way of proving this than for ones' self.
I think the real question would start at, is this the biggest sound quality improvement I could get for $3,500 or less; but maybe it ends at I've already spent money on everything I've read about and can think of, but I still have money left over.
A $1,200 power cable may improve the sound of my amp more than a $250 cable; but I am still using a $400 cartridge. So I'm not planning on buying either for quite a while?
He is fed a dog diet (pretty boring) but this dog will eat everything including pineapple slices. the only thing he seems to leave alone is spinach.
You are not, I hope, vegetarian?
I try to take care of myself (diet, exercise, music :^) but I am heading there it seems. Latest tests I have been told to limit red meat. Chicken and fish only. I see the big American hamburgers on TV and I salivate worse than the dog. (sorry not a pretty picture)
Otherwise we all will have pity with your dog.
Nikola - from my viewpoint right now being married 30+ years. If I had a choice to live like my dog for 12-15 years or take what I have now..... Hmmmmm.....
But I do own a black four legged critter again. Ever since I realized that Yogi was watching me in the woods. :^0 He can be seen on my virtual system. Not Yogi - my dog... Your reference to a piece of meat was bang on from mypersonal experience. Mind you, this summer our dog took fancy to my wife's cell phone lying there on a lawn chair, picked it up, starting prancing around with it, and threatened to take it into the lake. In this case sacrificing a peanut butter cookie instead of a piece of meat got it back.
Somehow I found myself on this fun thread - so I will provide my opinion.
Unless a record weight was designed in as part of the tables design, I see them as accessories.
As one example of this, the designer of my table Mr. Verdier (RIP) - told me through email that La Platine was designed to be used with no mat and or record weight. All external and record resonances, vibrations, what have you - are taken care of as part of its design. A lot of thought went into the table. However.....
He knew audiophiles would use them anyway, and here I was asking him about it too. Well I was heavy into my Audiophilia Nervosa phase at this time. A few years ago now. So he said to me, and the manual for the table does say this. "if you choose to use a record weight the table supports 8 kg."
This debate (like most others of its ilk) is conflating three very different topics. The first and least relevant topic is price, hence all the discussion of gold plated cars and diamond studded dog collars. The second is performance which for most of us I think is more important. The third topic is value, i.e. the combination of price and performance.
It is unclear if the OP was questioning just the price of the Durand clamp ("no clamp, however high performing could be worth that much"), or challenging its performance ("all clamps sound the same"), or thirdly combining the two and challenging its value ("you can get the same result with my home made clamp")
If we focus on the performance question alone then the appropriate framework is to conduct a shootout as I did of a $50 Michell clamp, versus a $250 Oyaide clamp, versus the $3500K (less substantial discount) Durand. And yes to me the differences were clear.
Next question is then value -- was it worth an additional $2.5K for the improvement over the Oyaide, well in the context of my system, my pocketbook, and where else I could spend the same money it was.
So there we have it -- price never entered into it. If the clamp had been gold plated (but the same performance) and cost $5K instead of $3.5K the value discussion would be different
Since some folks here are extreme dog lovers, and find no problem justifying a $150,000 dog collar, how about a roll of toilet paper for $1,376,900? Surely that is a necessity for all!!
God forbid an audio enthusiast spend $3500 on a record clamp though. Not that I would, but I don't have a problem with someone buying a $3500 record clamp. Not in a world where $1.4 million dollar toilet paper and $62 million dollar cars (gold
Lamborghini Aventador) exist.
We live in a time when the rich have never been richer. Stupid rich.
You should use it on a $200 turntable to get the best improvement.
The more expensive the turntable [ with the assumption that the sound is in line with the price ] is that the likely improvement diminishes according to the Law of Diminishing Returns as you get closer to perfection
When you run out of things to buy, I have a volume/balance harmonic rubber band looking balancer that goes between the posts for these knobs. With proper installation, also available, these harmonic springs can make your $2000 wood knobs add a new dimension to your bragging rights. Only $4000, including a one owner, rebuildable Supex 900 Mark IV. The cantilever is slightly bent, but it works well on my uni-pivot arm, when properly tweaked to one side. Hell, I'll even throw in the arm (Formula 4 JH clone of Mayware). For the price of a plane ticket, dog sitter, and hotel, I will come install it.
What we need is a shoot out between the Durand and the Shun Mook Mpingo record weight which, if I'm not mistaken, actually costs more than the Durand anyway, you know, due to the prohibition against farming that particular wood in Gabon or whatever.
Lohanimal -- being British (like me but I now live in the USA) you really need to save up for the Dalby Audio Design D7 Vinyl Stabilizer at a much more reasonable $6840 direct to you from West Yorkshire (once you get to the top of the waiting list)
The Durand is actually a cheaper variation on this, and more suited to my suspended turntable
Some live concerts aren't available at any price, such as The Beatles, Miles Davis, Charlie Mingus, Vladimar Horowitz, Jascha Heifetz, Frank Sinatra, Nat King Cole, orchestras conducted by Leonard Bernstein and Leopold Stokowski, etc.
.....his response was to say spend something like £30,000 on some lie music concerts first and to then spend the rest on his amps.
so, I will come to your house, play my trombone and sing for you (now just try to imagine that for a minute) for $75 American dollars per hour. **
You will get live and then some.
**You will also need to cover my travel, food, board and maybe some miscellaneous sexpenses.
- - -
@geoffkait
Durand, Durand
funny .......
Since this audio hobby falls under the very subjective category where no standards exist and everyone's room is different; this thread must therefore fall under the no such thing as bad publicity category.
I am glad I started this highly amusing thread. As it happens - I have the Amazon Model One - sadly not the Referenz. I am not against spending money on even expensive components - though I am sure some will think they are cheap no doubt. I have to say that in many ways my barometer is meaured by an article I read about a manufacturer of High End amps (name escapes me). He wass once approached with over £50,000 to have an amp built for a cusstomer - his response was to say spend something like £30,000 on some lie music concerts first and to then spend the rest on his amps. My point being that even in the world of high end equipment, there must be relative value IMHO - that is both in terms of performance and material value.
As hobbies go audio may be expensive but how planes as a hobby? I was at Oshkosh Airventure this summer. the cost of this record weight would pale in comparison to the normal replacement parts on airplanes. Glass instrument panels, a new engine, radar, navigation systems and radios etc can easily cost into the 6 figures for some aircraft. How about buying an old master print at auction? The world is full of stuff that costs lots of money. How others spend theirs is really none of our concern.
@yogiboy - Dunno about the OP but I certainly won't!
I do have a question, though...does purchase of the Bassner for a mere $100K also get you a tech holding a degree in mechanical engineering? That rig has a bit of a steam punk vibe.
lohanimal, do you still have an Amazon Referenz TT (which incidentally has a wonderful record weight included in the price of the TT)? If so I would like to correspond, el see el oh dee at charter dot net.
Have you heard the Durand weight? Have you made comparisons with other comparable weights in your system? Some if us have and concluded it is worth the cost
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