Duelund CAST silver a $50,000 Upgrade?

From what I've researched thus far apparently Unlike Mundorf and other ploy caps the Duelund CAST uses no poly or plastic and greatly reduces that overly bright and sometimes harsh sound and replaces it with an open fast but not harsh sound like the cap isn't even there..magic! I can't wait to actually experience them myself.

These are used in a lot of high end commercial and DIY speakers.

https://jupitercondenser.com/collections/audio-capacitors/paper-wax-foil

 

 

 

 

It does not change the basic sonics or physics of the speaker.

The Duelund CAST copper and the Jupiter stacked beeswax paper caps are all so natural sounding the only benefit might be cerebral..However; We have not actually done blind tests in our loudspeakers comparing copper CAST vs the silver CAST if we did perhaps we would find the silver slightly more detailed.

Fredrick at Duelund seems to think this is the case.

Q

Does this cap upgrade change the sonic signature of the speaker? or is it just a complimentery cap to the original spekers sound signature?

I wonder why many folks got burned out on high end audio due to feeling it was more about fads, fashion, huge profit margins, voodoo, snob appeal, and imagined differences between tweaks and mods.

I don't know why that thought just popped into my head after reading this thread.

Bypass?
We are talking about state-of-the-art crossover components so you bypass with what?

The silver CAST is a price is NO object option and for some that's the option they choose. If your amplifiers cost 250K+ per pair the silver CAST might make sense.

Note: The 20mF caps are huge and some of the largest Duelund has ever made in silver.

Q

Why not just bypass the crossovers in the speaker with an active crossover?

The Duelund CAST silver is extraordinarily expensive and the only advantage to me over the CAST pure copper is that you can tell people that your capacitors cost more than their mid-line car which might be fun at parties..Not!

Q

Mundorfs silver sound like crap if you switch to duelund CAST !!! i have used mundorfs alot...than i switch to a pair of duelund in the crossover...after that i modify everything with duelund everywhere

looks like I found Mountain High.

He's back to bashing Wilson audio. Asia guy? same writing style, same mode of operation. He's not touting dc10audio anymore just bashing others.

Read: Sound Familiar?

03-29-13: Bo1972
I have been about 6 times at clients with Wilson Audio speakers. they had one thing in common. They had a lot of acoustic problems. Some music you even could not play. They say Wilson make very fast speakers in respons. To be honest I don't think so. Wenn timing is better with speakers you get less acoustic problems. I sold my Pass Labs XA100.5 to a client with Puppy 7 speakers. To be honest it was quite good. Most times I listend to Wilson speakers I would not even want them for free in my room. Because I prefer en deeper and wider stage first. And second instruments and voices need to be extreemly sharp focussed and in the right proportion. This is a part were Wilson is not as it's best. With many amps Wilson speakers sound lean and far from musical. And yess then you need tube to make it sound acceptable.
Bo1972 (Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)

If your crossover has multiple or high value micro farads the cost can rise in a hurry.I was fortunate as my crossover only has one capacitor of modest size.

Thank you Mitch for clarifying!.

From what I've researched thus far apparently Unlike Mundorf and other ploy caps the Duelund CAST uses no poly or plastic and greatly reduces that overly bright and sometimes harsh sound and replaces it with an open fast but not harsh sound like the cap isn't even there..magic! I can't wait to actually experience them myself.

After posting, I realized it could sound confusing. The $765.00 was for the Mundorfs. The Duelunds were way more, into the thousands of dollars!

Cost is an object for some of us here. I ordered a pair of Salk Soundscape 8's and wanted a capacitor upgrade. Initially from all that I've read here and elsewhere I asked Jim Salk to cost out the Duelund caps in the tweeter position only, and nearly had a heart attack! They may sound better than Mundorf Silver-in-oil caps, but at $765.00, how much better? I'm going with the Mundorfs.

Somebody is obsessed with me! This must be what Erin Andrews felt like, lol.

Berkely- If you scroll around, you will find that most of us who hang out here on a long term basis are pretty good at sniffing out the shills. Although new ones do seem to pop up pretty regularly, when the BS alarm goes off, someone usually is quick to post about it.

Regarding the premium for the silver Duelands, I doubt that Dueland has any control over what the speaker manufacturer charges. It sucks, but they can charge whatever they want. In some ways no sillier and perhaps even more "value-priced" than the teleportation tweak.

Yet another:

Any of you heard the Vapor Audio Cirrus or Breeze?, posted on July 30, 2012 at 05:23:12
villastrangiato
He's a meteorologist from Missouri that became an "expert" loudspeaker builder with a DIY website education... What more do you need to know?

The bit about the amplifier he "borrowed" that seems to have "vaporized" is truly amusing though...

I am going to spend some time researching a few other posters here on audiogon and if most here are just shills for vendors or vendors I'll get this d---thing shut down!

And another.. Vapor1, Mountain high, rebbi how many others?

Any of you heard the Vapor Audio Cirrus or Breeze?, posted on August 16, 2012 at 06:58:10
villastrangiato
Schumacher,

You might have carte blanche over at the Parts Express website to spew technically incorrect non sense, self promotion, and abrasive blather but there are specific rules that go along with using this website - to wit:

"A member of the trade may not volunteer any information about a specific product that he is selling or making, in response to a general request for information about a type of product or in any other discussion.

A trade member may not post announcements, advertisements, sales information or the like about a product he makes or sells."

You just violated both of the above. As for my comments concerning Vapor Audio, there are no "two sides" to what I posted. The sole proprietorship that is Vapor Audio consists of Ryan Scott who has no formal education or background in engineering. Given some of the rambling non sense you've put forth over on Parts Express, your formal education appears to be somewhat lacking as well:

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?225045-Impact-of-Helmholtz-Tuning-Ratio-on-Response

For Dennis to take the rather unusual step of posting on several forums messages begging Ryan to contact him over the return of a loaned amp speaks volumes by itself. I simply stated that that situation was amusing. Knowing a fair amount about you and your association with Ryan - that situation made perfect sense and came as no surprise.

Anyone can make pretty boxes and stuff them with expensive drivers. I've been to most of the North American shows and have heard just about everything that is available on the market. A lot of pretty boxes with expensive drivers that sound no better than a garden variety PSB, Paradigm, or B&W speaker. Beyond the pretty boxes and expensive components, I found nothing extraordinary in listening to Ryan's speakers - certainly nothing consistent with the hype you've given them in your second post (pure unpaid advertising blather) on thi

Here have a look!

AudiogoN Forums: Vapor Cirrus Black vs dc10 Berlin Studio Monitor
10-29-12 Rebbi, jp1208, and vapor 1 same poster.. what's vapor worrie ... Mountain-high 10-29-12 Cause he's mountain high? just be aware that he sells dc10 s ...
forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1346960909&... - Cached
AudiogoN Forums: Vapor Cirrus Black vs dc10 Berlin Studio Monitor
10-19-12: Vapor1 Mountain-high ... and vapor 1 same poster.. what's vapor worrie ... Mountain-high 10-29-12 Cause he's mountain high? just be aware that he sells dc10 ...
forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1346960909&... - Cached
AudiogoN Forums: Vapor Cirrus Black vs dc10 Berlin Studio Monitor
Vapor1 10-19-12 Mountain-high, i was at rmaf and heard dc10audio system and ... ... jp1208, and vapor 1 same poster.. what's vapor worrie ... Mountain-high
forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1346960909&... - Cached
AudiogoN Forums: Vapor Cirrus Black vs dc10 Berlin Studio Monitor
Vapor1 10-19-12 Mountain-high, i was at rmaf and heard dc10audio system and ... ... jp1208, and vapor 1 same poster.. what's vapor worrie ... Mountain-high
forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1346960909&openflup&3 - Cached
AudiogoN Forums: Vapor Cirrus Black vs dc10 Berlin Studio Monitor
Vapor1 10-19-12 Mountain-high, i was at rmaf and heard dc10audio system and ... ... jp1208, and vapor 1 same poster.. what's vapor worrie ... Mountain-high

after a bit of looking at past posts it does look like vapor and mountain could be the same..Why are they so busy bashing dc10?

Thanks Charles!

I'm fine with my choice and know the copper foil represents the state-of-the-art my only wish is that Duelund in Denmark take a look at their pricing and make the CAST silver foil a viable option for people.

Berk, I think J_fav was bashing DC10 audio about Chinese drivers or something but would't doubt it's the same camp. One hit, two hit wonders with zero feedback or no longer registered users are suspect of other mfgr's either cheerleading or bashing another brand. You are dead on with your bashing comment but I think that was towards Evolution Acoustics. Still a vendor bashing another vendor.

Berkely did purchase the speaker. Questioning the substantial premium for the Duelund silver CAST upgrade is not bashing in my opinion.

Why are you people so paranoid? Is it because audiogon is exclusively a vendor's forum?
I am not mountain high..besides, who cares anyway and I'm not bashing dc10 I'm a customer. The only bashing I've seen was from vapor1 perhaps he is mountain high?

Steve B

Amazed at the desperation of some people.. some brands. But have to applaud for being able to push on this far before someone else blew the cover. There's more elegant ways to doing sales around here, be upfront, put on a disclaimer, its not all that difficult!

Mountainhigh & Berkley- would you please stop pushing down dc10. Its not funny anymore..

"Sounds like they just pulled the number out of their rear to make it go away.”

Germanboxers, that is a very reasonable proposition that’s contradicted by this:
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/full-range-dc10audio-instrument-8ps-loudspeaker-for-refrence-tube-amplification-2013-03-09-speakers-87507-santa-fe-nm

Phaelon - it does appear from that ad that I may be mistaken, but I can't help but think there is something else to this...sanity for one.

So it's not margin I found out that the 15" alnico woofers cost more than all the drivers combined in another speaker I was considering if it's a mark-up deal it at Deulund not dc10

Hi Charles, I know your right everyone has said CAST copper is a revolution. I guess I'm just a little disappointed by dc10 as they have made the Grand Voix speaker come with the CAST silver as standard and the copper as a cheaper alternative after i placed my order I thought i was getting the top model and i just don't see how the math can be correct. I want the silver but for 3-5K upgrade not 30-50K.

Berkely,
I have the copper CAST capacitor installed in my speakers and also a pair as coupling caps in my DAC.Their effect is undeniably significant. I can't phantom you'd be disappointed by any stretch of imagination . They're the epitome of purity, honestly and natural sound.I believe you'll love their contribution.
Regards,

Germanboxers is spot on.

My advice is forget about them - get some other speakers or get it upgraded elsewhere.

There is only one way to treat that type - go elsewhere.

Thanks
Bill

If that's the case and I hope not! I'll find out be emailing Deulund in Denmark and asking for prices on silver foil.

"Sounds like they just pulled the number out of their rear to make it go away.”

Germanboxers, that is a very reasonable proposition that’s contradicted by this:
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/full-range-dc10audio-instrument-8ps-loudspeaker-for-refrence-tube-amplification-2013-03-09-speakers-87507-santa-fe-nm

then why is silver 12 times more $$$

It's not. I suspect your speaker manufacture decided they didn't want to bother with yet one more option that would need to be purchased and tested before responsibly selling. Sounds like they just pulled the number out of their rear to make it go away.

then why is silver 12 times more $$$

As far as I know the Deulund CAST differ only in choice of metal foil used.Other than that distinction all else is identical.

So no one out there can explain the huge difference in price from CAST copper foil to silver? It surly is not just the metal.

Chill out I only asked about upgrading I'm sticking with the included CAST copper foil like I said I cannot pay an extra $50K for something no one can eve measure!

Hello, no offence but are you off your rocker? Answer this question by first answering do you even have fifty thousand dollars worth of acoustic treatment applied to your listening room?

The Duelund site offers pricing for their Copper version.
Their Silver version pricing is available upon request.

Hi Berkelyaudiogeek

Don't worry about this time aligned first order crossover thing. I know a speaker maker who built two speakers identical in every way except one was first order time aligned and the other not. He could detect nothing - nada - from the exercise. He has however found that phase coherency through the crossover pass-band was important and uses a third order quasi crossover to do that.

My advice is not to worry about that sort of thing and judge a speaker by what you hear not how they do it.

Thanks
Bill

Audio is a lot like fishing, sucker is born every day!
Fish on!

I'm sure I would like Lenehan Audio too! I alway's wanted Dunlavy's back in the day! I think dc10 has a similar idea to Dunlavy with minimal filter but drivers chosen for their clean roll off thus delivering more detail. Looks to me are very impotant too very very important and I don't like the looks of the rockports.

Its not worth that much - forget about it.

The best speakers I have ever heard, some of which with a few extra tweaks like external crossovers and Bybees, cost $13.5k and they use 10 gauge air core inductors, have the cabinet lined with 1/4 inch copper and use Duelund Cast Copper capacitors. $50k for cast silver is silly and knowing guys that have a lot of knowledge about Duelund its debatable if the silver sounds better. Even with the tweaks the entire speaker is costing $15k.

Instead of doing that go around and hear different speakers - I hear good things about Rockport and you are likely to have money left over. Unfortunately the speakers I am getting are really an Australian thing and unless you are in Australia its unlikely you will get a chance to hear them - but in case you are or can get out to Australia they are Lenehan Audio ML2 Limited..

Thanks
Bill

It makes one appreciate the tremendous value of the CAST copper foil product being how copper CAST is without peer.

Q

I'm fine with the copper CAST in-fact thrilled to have such great components in my new speakers and for my system copper is appropriate! If you have some voodoo mega-bucks pure silver transformed amps built by Japanese monks well then silver is a no brainer.

There must be more to it than just the metal when it comes to the CAST in silver.

There comes a point wear you just have to say no. Cap's that cost 50,000 no. I think I should wait for Cardas to come out with Pure Silver binding posts for 10,000.00.

Look at the bright side, the copper Duelund CAST will likely outperform all but the silver version.So you're still doing very well.
Regards,

I was hoping to match my silver internal wire with silver caps and inductor. Knowing how expensive CAST copper is I was prepared for a 3-5K upgrade for the silver which to me makes sense.

Assuming that the same labour is required for both the Copper and Silver CAST caps, for a $50K upcharge to silver over copper, there must be around 120lbs of silver used. Yea, I would say a bit of a margin is built in.

You have to guesstimate how many ounces of silver they would need? Then how many hours of craftsman time it would require, since I doubt these are are frabricated by some automated process. Even then it is hard to believe they would cost anywhere near that figure. Sounds like hefty margins are being made at several stages.