Yeah, no Lenz's law issues which can really mess up cable performance.
And hope your build works out and meets your expectations.
And hope your build works out and meets your expectations.
Doug Schroeder Method, Double ic
I think this topic deserves its own thread , where use double ic through y adapters , from source to preamp, Can’t connect it from Preamp to Amp...For me the result is huge, I can’t go back to single ic....
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Well it most certainly is the right tool to put the flat-earthers back on their heels ( at least the ones who claim that cables couldn’t possibly make a difference ). Unfortunately the measurement chapter still has a bone to gnaw on since the measurements the doubling produces does predict a large performance increase. That being said there is something else going on with this concept I feel goes beyond the predictions. So it seems we may win an important battle over the flat-landers but most likely the war will continue, though admittedly on a much different ground but against a weakened foe. |
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Just wanted to acknowledge all positives about the doubled IC method. I had an original Monster (not the newer ebay ones) splitter and then bought another identical one from ebay. Scary to turn on the power, but WOW, just tremendous sound improvement, as a supercharger sound improvement!And yes, I've had some discussions with flat earther's whose mantra seems to be "if it can't be measured, it can't be heard". Well, hearing is believing. If having an open mind allows an open set of ears, then bring it on! |
Without trying to read through this entire thread is the SM simply building a set of ICs with the internal wiring reflecting two individual ICs with one set of connectors. For example, a twisted pair RCA IC build would simply have two twisted pairs of internal conductors terminated to an individual RCA on each end. Two conductors soldered to the center pin and two conductors soldered to the outer shell. That’s it right? This is disruptive? Seems we are just doubling up the conductors. This has been done and is currently being done. I must be missing something here? Kimber and Canare make ICs with doubled up conductors. The above example is for an unshielded set of ICs using the SM. I prefer the sound of unshielded ICs when possible. For shielded ICs I assume each of the two twisted pairs are individually shielded. |
I believe the Schroeder Method has the potential to be disruptive in several respects, including the scenario stringreen has suggested. That scenario I would not think a suitable template to suggest that any cheap cables in Schroeder Method could best any expensive IC in single configuration. I theorize that when both cables, low end and high end, in their respective sets were configured in Schroeder Method the high end cable's superior performance would reassert itself. Only comparisons would answer the question with some certainty. At the moment I have been focused more on the breadth of applicability rather than comparisons to ascertain relative thresholds of performance between inexpensive ICs and expensive ICs. It may be years before such things are known with a high degree of certainty. Typically one does not have multiple sets of cheap and expensive ICs sitting around ready for such comparisons. At this time I have reason to believe that the Schroeder Method is a case of a rising tide lifting all boats. :) |
Stringreen I own Teo ultra and Teo GC , I used blue jeans LC1 double ic on my tt to preamp with an outstanding result, you never know until you try.ThAt said I own high fidelity cables, Nordost Heimdall Cables, Marigo, Audioquest Diamond, Sterling, But Iam open to try different cables..Iam a big fan of blue jeans cable as well.., |
The valid comparator is the Schroeder, parallelled version (whether by using splitters or constructing an assembly without splitters) versus the single-run counterpart. The Schroeder paralleled version trounces the single-run version every time—and by a fair margin. How the Schroeder paralleled version of an inexpensive IC compares to a more expensive, single-run IC is open to interpretation/analysis by the listener/evaluator. Doug has made numerous comparisons among different configurations from different brand IC’s. Doug might offer his insight on this. The Teo Audio folks (taras22 and teo_audio) have made versions of the Schroeder assemblies without external splitters, which they dub as “Double Double” IC’s for I believe their GC-Jr IC and their Ultra IC. If memory serves well, they might have compared the SQ’s of their new Double Double IC’s against other single-run counterparts of their IC lineup. See the pages 4-5 of the following forum thread: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/new-teo-audio-ics-who-has-them |
Correction to my post above, which I noticed absentmindedly referred to "integrated preamps". The quote is, "At the same time, David Belles, who I discussed this with in depth while in the Belles Audio ARIA Preamp and Mono Amp review, was quite comfortable with granting permission to try it with his components. I thank him for his contribution to understanding and the go ahead to try between the ARIA preamp and Mono amps! The result? Splendid! Wonderful! Powerful changes along the same lines as when using integrated preamps to amps." I was typing quickly and intended to refer to integrated DACs using Schroeder Method to amps. I suppose one could refer to "integrated preamps" as a preamp with a DAC, but that is not intuitive. |
BTW, David Belles I think would have been Ok with introducing the Schroeder Method discussion into the review of the ARIA components. It was in a word glorious. But, I chose not to detract from the focus on this components. You can bet I'm using Schroeder Method with his gear ongoing in reviews. Incredible sound over single ICs. |
I have not advocated mixing brands/models of cables, though I'm sure it would be fascinating to try. I would think the results might be unpredictable, good or bad. All iterations of the Schroeder Method I have done with two identical cables have been successful, extremely positive. That seems to be fairly consistent in trails among interested parties so far. As regards where precisely to place the doubled cables, I have encountered distinctly different reactions, advice and warnings. Some such as Taras of TEO Audio are cautionary, while other designers are dismissive of any real world danger. Two very well know designers who know their stuff, let's say, downplayed the danger of placing Schroeder Method ICs (presuming of identical cables, not mixed) and said there should be no problem. Who should a person believe? It seems there is much more not known than known with certainty, even among those who know theory thoroughly. So, I'm not about to eliminate the "do at your own risk" disclaimer. At the same time, David Belles, who I discussed this with in depth while in the Belles Audio ARIA Preamp and Mono Amp review, was quite comfortable with granting permission to try it with his components. I thank him for his contribution to understanding and the go ahead to try between the ARIA preamp and Mono amps! The result? Splendid! Wonderful! Powerful changes along the same lines as when using integrated preamps to amps. Am I saying it's all good, ok to do this in every pre/amp combo? NO Am I saying it's free and clear, that the ARIA gear is good to go with Schroeder Method for any conceivable combo of ICs? NO I'm saying I had one outstanding result so far between pre/amp. The result was good enough that I won't stop there; I'll be testing it some more. I'm not recommending people ignore the advice to discuss with their manufacturer/designer and simply slap together whatever gear with the doubled ICs. I would rather err on the side of caution than foolishness. But, there's no way I'm letting this lie; it's WAY too powerful to ignore. The one safest connection for Schroeder Method seems to be ahead of preamp. But, I have done many connections now with integrated DACs with preamp function out to amps. So, obviously pre/amp is not blowing up gear, at least not in about 10 instances I have tried. Most recent is between Benchmark DAC3 DX and AHB2 Amps. (NOTE, this is NOT endorsement by Benchmark!). Oh, my, is this an amazing result with the Schroeder Method! Riveting performance way beyond single ICs. |
I’d personally say to go from cd or source, to preamp. This way the loading is stable and assured, instead of impedance and load both shifting every time you change the potentiometer level. And, to be entering into a power amp directly where full gain is always applied........egads! It's like hunting for a uncomplimentary resonance pattern - that blows stuff up. Sooner or later....you'll get there. It's still very much a maybe, but the odds are too high for me.... A recipe for disaster, it could be... pre to power is to be avoided, relatively speaking. A personal choice. But a sensible one. |
@ mr_m Actually such cables have been made in the past ( TEO Audio made examples of this design several years ago and Bob Smith mentions making a very successful one one in the comments attached to the Dagogo article that introduced the Schroeder Method ). The positive draws of this design are pretty obvious: greater bandwidth, lower inductance and characteristic impedance, but then so are the drawbacks: higher capacitance, and the biggie, instability when faced with high/large complex loads, which btw can become "terminal" with certain designs of power supply. The capacitance issue in most applications simply means added warmth which is ok( or in some applications glare which is not ok ) but in longer lengths can produce problems ( and super long lengths can produce intractable problems....in industrial settings super long runs of standard cable designs can produce capacitance high enough to make relays inoperative, so one can infer that beginning with a design that doubles capacitance will put some limits on effective cable length ). But the instability issue is a different kettle of fish. It can, when the two legs are of a significantly different type, produce the lack of synergy that both jayctoy and tuffy have experienced, it can also produce the type of oscillations that years ago put our experimentation with this design to rest. Btw it was during the first discussion I had with Doug about the viability of using this design that this rather negative experience was brought up and that directly gave rise to the warning/disclaimer that Doug has wisely added to his subsequent discussions about the Schroeder Method ( and good on Doug for being cautious when faced with something that has produced such wild results...I think most people would just charge forward, torpedoes be damned...we certainly did and closely skirted disaster ). So the bottom line with this design is it has some very obvious benefits ( eg lowering the characteristic impedance helps digital signals, greater bandwidth helps all signals, higher capacitance can be a mixed blessing assuming cable lengths are held relatively short ) and some potential problems such as a perceived lack of synergy or a really bad synergy that can escalate into terminal instability. So while experimentation is much fun lets proceed with caution eh. To paraphrase, its all fun and games until someone loses amp or a speaker. |
Mr m I met Doug 2yrs ago very very nice guy, I do really thank Him telling us about his method, I was benefited on four sets now.With the right matching it’s hard to go back to single ic...Celander your assessment of the starquad double canare ic , it reflects mine, I love this cable a lot, it’s fantastic ic , I do own Teo ultra too.., |
I have evaluated a 6-ft run Dual Canare StarQuad assembly terminated with Canare RCA connectors in place of my 2-meter run of Teo Audio Ultra (single) IC’s between the preamp and powered ATC monitors (see setup below), wherein the assembly includes two paralleled Canare L-4E5C StarQuad audio IC’s spliced together in the assembly (that is, a Shroeder Method paralleled IC assembly without splitters). Here is the Canare spec sheet: http://www.canare.com/ProductItemDisplay.aspx?productItemID=53 The test set-up is as follows: CAL Delta CD Transport (output clock jitter at 50psec); Dual Canare StarQuad digital assemblies connected to relevant digital outputs of the Delta and into inputs of a Theta DS PRO Basic IIIa DAC; Dual Assembly Canare StarQuad audio cable (2-ft length) connecting DAC to Audible Illusions M3A; Dual Canare StarQuad assembly (6-ft length) from AI M3A to powered ATC SCM20-2A’s monitors. Though it’s too early to render a verdict on the Dual Canare assembly, I’m frankly shocked how well it sounds against the outstanding Teo Audio Ultra IC. I’m hearing a lot of the same detail in the complexity of musical presentation, pace and dimensionality with the Dual Canare StarQuad assembly as I enjoy with the Ultra. I would be seriously interested how well a Double Double Ultra sounds by comparison to the Teo Audio Ultra single run IC or this inexpensive Dual Canare StarQuad assembly. |
I belong to another audio forum/(cables) and there is a thread started a week or so ago on the Schroeder Method with two members who have actually tryed the Method. The rest are closed minded about it. Some of them seem to think they have all the answers regarding ic's. I feel fortunate I stumbled onto this thread and actually built double ic's and discovered that it works. Keep an opened mind. |
jayctoy, thank you for your thoughtful replies and the effort to make the Schroeder Method more visible; I think it helped greatly to introduce it to audiophiles at large. It would make sense that some combinations (not yet recommended) of blended cables in Schroeder Method might be unsatisfactory to the ears. I have done approximately 9 systems of various config. (RCA, XLR, integrated DAC to amps, preamp to amps, etc.) and am overjoyed at the consistent, powerfully beneficial results. This is one of the more enjoyable periods of being an audiophile over the past 30+ years. I am beginning to experience the realization of sound quality/experiences I dreamed of but was not sure could ever be realized. The Benchmark Media DAC3 and AHB2 Amps in Mono are stunningly beautiful in this setup. The Class AAA amplifier technology is breathtakingly beautiful with Schroeder Method. It maximizes the technology Benchmark made in collaboration with THX. The sound is far superior to any rig I established while reviewing them for Dagogo.com. Single IC does not tap into the reservoir of sound quality of these components. (I suspect that to be true universally with any appropriate (note again the "do at your own risk" environment) components, but much more have to be tried to make a general statement of it.) The Schroeder Method is big, much bigger than I had thought. I think I still don't have a handle on how big it can get. |
Doug I did put Doug Schroeder Method on its own , so many will see it quickly , originally it’s embedded on the Teo thread, so those who are not interested on the Teo thread will not see it. My intension so many will have the chance to read it Because Iwas already benefited from the Audioquest King Combra combo double ic , before I tried the Teo Combo.... |
Doug as good as the Doug Schroeder method, synergy is required to obtain the musicality and articulation Iam looking for my main system.why at times here at Agon many will share cables are system dependent...One day I would love to try conjoin Teo Jr .Teo Cables are excellent but in my main system with adapters the synergy wasn’t there... |
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jayctoy, so you are saying that the combination of two different TEO cables in Schroeder Method was not good? I'm trying to understand your comments. This would be the first instance of someone I know who tried using two different cables together in Schroeder Method, and the first time someone said it was not good. Please confirm whether I understand this correctly. |
Tuffy , Iam a Teo Cables fan , I do like their cables a lot, My system consist of Andra Eggleston , monoblock musical fidelity, art audio preamp, schiit Gumby Dac , marantz ah toeb transport, when I tried the GC and ultra combo, it took a while before I realise it was too slow, the speed and articulation wasn’t there. Until Davidten visited , He made a comment that my system is more alive when I switch to vynil, that confirmed my suspicion regarding speed, the moment I put the ultra alone. Music came alive Speed is back. Double IC doesn’t always work.i myself Wish the ultra And GC work.... |
@Jayco My two Teo Ultra's run with the Schroeder Method using Audioquest RCA splitters ($12.95 ea × 4) yielded noticeably better sound than my single RCA Teo Ultra. I loved the Ultra big step up over previous Game Changer. Trying to Remember exactly, but I would say difference in step up similar from 2 Ultra's using Schroeder Method on par with performance gained moving from Game Changer to Ultra RCA IC. |