Yes....and this change really improves on the first splitter based model....
Doug Schroeder Method, Double ic
I think this topic deserves its own thread , where use double ic through y adapters , from source to preamp, Can’t connect it from Preamp to Amp...For me the result is huge, I can’t go back to single ic....
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Has anyone who has tried this first with splitters reterminated the parallel runs so there is only one set of RCAs and no need for splitters? What I mean is that you'll still have double the amount of interconnect cable, but the "normal" amount of RCA connectors. The splitters and all the extra RCAs can't be doing any good. |
Refresher: the Schroeder Method (“SM”) of interconnect cabling a system refers to taking 2 similar or dissimilar brands of interconnects and connecting them in parallel. Y-splitters can be used for native interconnects. One can also use manufactured assemblies in which the separate interconnects (typically of the same brand and type of core cabling) are configured in parallel and terminated with the desired connectors (RCA, BNC, XLR or AES/EBU). Douglas Schroeder posted the original article here: https://www.dagogo.com/audio-blast-schroeder-method-interconnect-placement/ The main cable forum thread here is the following: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/doug-schroeder-method-double-ic In that forum thread are 2 further links to Teo_Audio threads that describe possible mode of action behind the method. Those are essential reading as to the underlying principles that really aren’t addressed in the above thread. Commentary at the end of Schroeder’s Audio Blast article cited above also provides insight. |
I am offering this as a public service announcement: the SM, as described by Doug Schroeder in his original Audio Blast article, only applies to IC’s. Whatever y’all want to do with power cables and speaker cables is up to you. But doubling up those configurations is not the equivalent to the SM for IC’s. |
As I have double Schroeder Method running currently, I will be swapping their positions to see the effect. Swapping single ICs is efficacious, readily heard in a good rig, so I would expect the same with double IC. shkong78, I thought you had used two sets of Schroeder Method ICs in your rig. Not sure if you swapped out their position, but you may want to consider it. Frankly, you would have to rebuild all the trials you did with double and triple again in the new positions. The results will vary for each one of those. Perhaps you already went through this, but most audiophiles miss this. Whereas most audiophiles are too lazy, or don't see the potential, you would see the potential and likely would have the zeal to try. :) I recommend trying all compatible cables in all positions, even power cords. It's more work, but imo the only way to find the best expression of a system. :) |
I tried the Schroeder Method once with XLR cables acting as AES/EBU between a Musical Fidelity transport and a DAC. It was very good. It certainly did not seem to exhibit any issues due to doubling the IC. The sound quality was holistically superior to a single IC of same brand, even though the Y cables (not Audio Sensibility) were poorer quality. |
Thanks for your recommendation. I had not tried Marigo apparition Digital Cable. But Zenwave D4 is clearly one notch above Blackcat Silverstar mk2 and sounds good enough at my system. I will finish cable rolling at this point. I had not changed any major audio components from 2013 to July 2018. For the last 6 months, I had spent more than 15k$ on Line Magnetic 508 SET amp, Jay’s CDT2 transport. used Lyngdorf 2170, lot of cables and tubes. It is time to retire from hardware swap and enjoy the music. It will be hard to beat my current system in musicality. |
I am happy to report that the review of the ANTICABLES Reference series products is now published at dagogo.com See also the manufacturer's comments at the end of the article. Pertinent here is the fact that Paul Speltz is now offering ANTICABLES ICs with Schroeder Method design. :) I did a lot of informal testing of Schroeder Method with ANTICABLES, and it was efficacious in every instance - as has been the case with every cable used so far; also used has been TEO Audio, Clarity Cable and Audio Sensibility. |
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celander
Confirmed....with the caveat that the Red Dragon is a very well designed amp with proper care given to its power supply( please remember that our concerns with this cable technology that were voiced at the very birth of the Schroeder Method was based on our somewhat negative experiences with that technology prior to that point....we had experienced some oscillations during our initial tests and shelved the project. Given the success of this cable geometry since Doug took up its flag we can only speculate that the issue with that initial test was something in the other hardware, and our guess is that it was related to a less than rock solid power supplies. So please, do go ahead and enjoy this breakthrough technology but a bit of caution is just prudent since there is already a history of excess capacitance in speaker cables not being nice to stereo components). |
To remind folks about Canare StarQuad IC’s and Dual Canare StarQuad IC assemblies: These IC’s in their single configuration have 2 conductors per leg (signal and return). So the SM version has 4 conductors per leg running in parallel to the RCA plug terminals. That’s 8 conductor paths total into a single plug. No big deal. |
Well, maybe taras22 should confirm that they tried their Double double assembly with the Red Dragon amps. Frankly, I don’t see how any SM assembly can be problematic for a class D amp if any of Teo Audio cables work with them. Teo Audio claims their fluid liquid metal conductors have a 1GHz+ bandwidth. That easily extends well into and beyond the bandwidth of switching frequencies of a class D amp. |
celander taras22's post re: Red Dragon amps was on 2-3-19 at 1:48 PM "For what its worth have used our cables with Red Dragon amps and had no trouble. " Subsequently, you asked: 2-3-19 9:07 PM "Taras22, have you or Ken tried any of your double double IC assemblies with a class D amp?" douglas_schroder then responded: 2-3-19 9:30 PM "Yes, the Red Dragon is class D; I reviewed it for Dagogo.com and it sounds like they tried the Double Double with it." taras22 did not respond to your question above; doug schroder did, saying that it ' sounds like ' they tried the double double. I did not read this as taras22 saying that he tried the double double with the Red Dragon without issue. |
twoleftears, I see you have the Belles ARIA components; very nice! I wrote them up for Dagogo.com recently. They are a wonderfully sensible and good performing series. They sound even better with Schroeder method between the ARIA pre and the ARIA Monos. Also, do not fail to give them a good power cord. They have a lot more to give in sound quality when set up properly. Dave Belles was the first manufacturer to give me permission to hook up preamp and amp(s) in Schroeder Method, and I will always be thankful to him for that. The result was splendid, and showed that Pre to Amp is a highly efficacious connection for Schroeder Method ICs. That setup was proof of method for pre to amp. |
Dear OP I am not surprised that you find double SC work The most notable change from double SCs to Triple SCs is fuller and deeper bass with authority. Also somehow it has more relaxed and clean decay. With triple IC(Audio Note, Crystal Cable, Teo GCII), triple SC(double Audio Note and Teresonic Clarrison) and Synergistic Blue power cables, I am really happy with the sound from Lansche 4.1 speakers using either Silbatone 300B SET or Line Magnetic 508 SET. It is musical, dynamic with nuanced details, wide and deep soundstage. I had just stopped cable rolling at this point and will enjoy the music. I am not the person who keep changing equipment very often. But my humble 100K$ system sound much more musical than any systems that I had heard in many Audio Shows Thomas |
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Triple connection of speaker cables also do wonder. I have two pairs of Audio Note speaker cables(silver plated, 6 ft each) but both of them have banana. I received connector from banana to spade from Amazon today. After connecting double Audio Note SCs and Teresonic Clarrison Speaker Cable together, it has more definition, clean decay, wider soundstage and slightly more details. New price of Teresonic Clarrison Speaker Cable is 1500$ but I got used one at less. I paid 3K$ for each pair of Audio Note SC 20 years ago. I can extend their life at least another 5 years. It is hard to beat this triple combination with excellent dynamics, nuanced details, wide and deep holographic soundstage. |
rechsm, so you have made a quad version of Schroeder Method IC? Four discrete runs in one plug? Wow! This demonstrates imo unequivocally the importance of the method, and of AWG in the quality. Very nice summary; thanks for sharing this! I am elated that you found the activity worthwhile. I see your system is nice; I'll bet you have obtained a superb level of sound quality. |
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https://www.amazon.com/Round-Up-Erich-Kunzel/dp/B000FKO40C If your system give wide and deep soundstage, then this CD will impress your guest. Now my system give holographic and transparent image of the first track. Horses are moving around. Also my system show excellent dynamics of Gun shot at Track 7. Track 11 ( sound of insect) sound spooky. For the last 20 years I had kept using Audio Note IC and SC cables. But I had changed power cables 6 times during 20 years. About 4 months ago I changed into SR Blue PC. Now I may not need to change IC or Speaker cables for the time being ( Maybe 3 years or longer). |
I had used Audio Note speaker cable for 20 years which I paid 3K$ ( I am original owner) It was hard to beat with excellent transparency, treble, tight bass and soundstage. I happened to get used Teresonic Clarrison Speaker Cable at reasonable price about 3 weeks ago. It was close to the performance of Audio Note with more relaxed sound. But ultimately I found that Audio Note has better dynamics and more inner details. I had Teresonic Clarrison Speaker Cable and Audio Note speaker cable connected to my speaker at the same time for 12 hours. It got more relaxed and soundstage got slightly wider and deeper. The most notable thing is it sound more holographic. I thinks Doug Method has more effect on IC cables. But if you have two good speaker cables, you may try. Unless you try yourself, you will never find out. Thomas |
Thanks Doug for your encouragement. Through my 40 year’s of audio history, I also learnt that unless you try, you will never know. I also started your method on speaker cables. I connected both Teresonic Clarrison Speaker Cable and Audio Note speaker cable at the same time. I will let my impression be disclosed after 8 hours. Initial impression is quite good in that the sound get slightly more relaxed with more reverberation and more 3-D imaging. |
Update on Triple Combo after 8 hours of playing. It sounds much better with clear focus. Maybe Y splitter also need burn in. Audio Note(silver plated) and Crystal Cable(pure silver) IC are 20 years old. I paid 2K$ for Audio Note and 1K$ for Crystal Cable (I am original owner). Before trying triple combo, Zenwave D4 and Crystal Cable double gave most balanced sound with pristine treble and nice details. Teo GCII and Crystal Cable double gave very exciting sound with fast transient and nice decays but fall short of Zenwave in details. Teo GCII and Audio Note double gave nice details back but somewhat confused sound. By adding Crystal Cable to Teo GCII and Audio Note double I get ultimate sound with nice details, transparency, deep bass and nice transients. Soundstage is deep and wide for all the above combination without much difference. I will update the result of triple combo after one week(around 50 hours of listening). Thanks a lot Doug for introducing this technique. Thomas |
After getting more Y splitters, I am running three IC cables(Audio Note, Crystal Audio, Teo GCII) together. Now I am getting nice details, definition deep bass and transparency. The only downside is that triple combo sound a little bit heavier and slower than combination of Crystal Audio and Teo which sound very fast with clean decay. I inquired Ken about availability of Teo Ultra RCA cable. But if this combination work well, I may go this way. I will listen to this combination for several hours before deciding on order of Ultra. |
Just out of box, GCII gave nice impression of excellent dynamics and bloom. But when I played Eva Cassidy I got somewhat disappointed with lack of details compared with silver cables. Most cables need burn in and with time going by they sound more refined and organic. But they rarely get more detail with burn in. Liquid metal cable may have advantage in balanced sound with bloom. But it may not be for detail freak like me. I will keep burning it for another week to see what happen. But I am not optimistic. Thomas |
@shkong78 I had the original Game Changer RCA and liked it very much as it bested my twice as expensive Darwin the Truth XLR that it replaced. I then tried the Teo Ultra which I found to be superior to GC in every way. I heard about the Schroeder Method at last year's Axpona and decided to try it with two Ultra's and it really worked and loved the sound....another definite upgrade. I then talked to Taras at Teo, after I saw they were producing basically a double double line of cables. Taras said that their connecting of the two cables with a connector of their choice vs the Y connector was another big jump in sound quality. The double double Ultra has gobs of detail. I believe that if I had a good recording of a pin drop that I could hear it on my system You might ask Taras about the double double Ultra as I heard it may best a single Kronon. I hope this information helps in your quest. I also wanted to mention that my system consists of a heavily modded EVS Oppo 205 and a heavily modded 30 watt class A hybrid integrated amp which only requires ONE interconnect. This allows every step up in IC to be absolutely heard and more easily discerned. |
The Teo Audio interconnects improve significantly with in-use conditioning. Other cables will too. You should condition your cables before doing up SM assemblies. You are in for a surprise. Everything in terms of SQ improves when moving from the GC2 to the Ultra. I presume the Kronon improves by a significant margin over the Ultra, but I don’t personally know this for a fact as I don’t own a set of Kronon cables. |