Don’t buy used McCormack DNA 1990s amps

@ram360j CJ is not the sister company of McCormack.  They had a business relationship for a few models that CJ may support and that’s it.  There are decades of legacy McCormack amps that CJ has no relationship with nor responsibility for and likely will in no way support.  Not even McCormack will repair their legacy models, especially if the repair involves the critical input board.  Please don’t spread crap you have no knowledge of. 

@soix 

Conrad Johnson manufactured the MF2250 & MF2275 solid state amplifiers ,

They are the same as the McCormack DNA-250 , which C.J. manufactured after buying the name and rights to McCormack ,  Steve McCormack makes no claim to designing the 250 ,

so C.J. will repair that model , at least when I contacted them a few years ago .

@vair68robert Like I said, CJ and McCormack were involved in producing a few models but nothing much more than that. They were certainly not “sister companies.”

@soix 

I don't believe  that saying  @ram360j  was spreading " CRAP " ,  maybe he was wrong by calling a " sister " company .

Hello Friends -

It is certainly no secret that McCormack Audio was purchased by the Conrad-Johnson Design Group back in 1998. It was then moved back to Virginia, where it shares its headquarters with conrad-johnson. While both companies share resources, they each maintain their separate, distinct identities.

I am still the primary designer for McCormack Audio, and have done the equipment design since the move. I also do the shows and dealer seminars. My true role, however, is as part of a design team, so I may not be responsible for every aspect of some future designs.

A good deal of my time is also taken-up by my own small business, SMc Audio. This is something I enjoy very much, as it brings me into direct contact with you folks and lets me indulge my audio imagination by rebuilding my earlier designs. I think this works-out pretty well for all concerned ;-)

Best regards,

Steve McCormack
www.SMcAudio.com​​​​​​​

@vair68robert Yeah, you’re right and that was probably a bit harsh and I apologize.  It was, however misleading. 

If you want to sell it here, you’ll have to pay for an ad.

Well, I just had an experience where a sales guy working with SMC audio was pressuring me into buying a refurbished Smc audio amplifier for $10.5k. It didn’t even have balanced inputs, and very little information was provided. I respectfully declined as there was no way to verify the value or features of the product. I became especially cautious when I saw a listing for the same model on Audio Mart for half price off. I would advise anyone spending more than $2k with this company to get a detailed feature list, model information, and compare prices with prior products that have sold on Audiogon.com, Audio Mart USA, or ebay. Buyer Beware taking the salesman "word for it" without doing your own third party due diligence. The salesman was very convincing and employed a high pressure sales tactic, using "scarcity" and all the same sales points mentioned in this thread. Just because a company does high end consulting work doesn’t mean anything about whether prices are fair and how they stack up against market competition. At $10.5k i could have got a new Pass Lab, Mcintosh integrated, so many good choices , how could I just buy a refurbished product without detailed market pricing information.

@fishagedone  I’m sorry, but this just doesn’t pass the smell test.  I and many people here have dealt with SMcAudio for years and they’ve been nothing but straight shooters.  Plus, as far as I know they don’t have a sales force.  This sounds like bullcrap. 

SMcAudio is a boutique brand at this point - selling high-end amps, preamps, etc.  and they also rebuild old McCormack amps.  I’ve heard nothing but great things about them. I still have an original McCormack DNA-1 Deluxe and have exchanged email with Pat about rebuilding it.  He’s never pressured or even tried to sell me — just answered my questions and was really helpful.  It’s also not crazy to have amps over $10K that aren’t balanced. Many examples out there. If you don’t want to buy it, just don’t buy it.  What if I wrote a post that Pass Labs is sketchy? The XA25 is only 25 watts per channel and isn’t even balanced and they have the nerve to charge $5.2K for it.  Barely any specs on their website and no measurements.  Buyer beware!!!   Sounds silly, right?
 

All I can say is this was my experience. Well, if you think $10.5k for a refurbished amp with decades old chassis and no balanced inputs is worth it, have at it ! I personally don’t think it’s a good value, and the same model was selling with a balanced input added for less than half on Audio Mart ! Call BS all you want but everything is 100 percent factual and I have all of the evidence and documents to support everything I am saying.

Yes, it is true they don’t have a dedicated sales force. It appears to be largely a one-man operation with helpers. I’m not going to dox anyone or speak badly about any person in particular, that’s not how I do things. I am just sharing my experience with the company and somebody who apparently works with them. I do have credible personal information that this was an authorized sales distribution channel I was working with. Look, if you had a good experience with them great, I'm just sharing my personal experience and issues that I encountered.  

@fishagedone So, here’s the thing, I just flat out don’t believe your little story and it strains credibility in every way. I don’t know what your motivation is, but for you to come here and try to denigrate a company of the highest integrity is disgusting. At the very least you’re misrepresenting that the salesman you were dealing with works for SMcAudio because they don’t have any salespeople.  It’s just Steve and Patrick and that’s it. 
 

This story seems very odd to me too.  What you describe is 180 degrees from any experience I have ever had with SMc Audio. You may have been speaking with a former customer or possibly another industry professional who has a loose association with SMc Audio and ended up too far over their skis when trying to sell an amplifier. In my over 20 years of dealing with them, I have never heard of them pressuring anybody to do anything.

At this point, SMc Audio is mostly a very small boutique craftsman shop and they usually have all the work they need.   As far as I know there are only two principal employees and I doubt you were speaking with either of them.  Their bespoke manufacturing model is maybe not for everyone but most of us who have their stuff understand the high level of quality and value of their products.  IME, they are extremely good people to work with.

Look, i don’t have any motivation to denigrate or anything of the sort. Your insinuation that sharing my honest experience is "disgusting " is ridiculous. So if a customer has a truthful experience that doesn’t align with your particular company’s narrative you resort to baseless and false attacks? Please, get over yourself. The world isn’t limited to experiences that always align with your preconceived notions. And at the end of the day, my point is to always ask for transparency, detailed information and check with market data.  Every consumer should be advocates for such behavior . 

As far as you claiming I’m misrepresenting the salesperson, I already explained it was an authorized agent I primarily dealt with. However I do believe the $10.5k asking price for the refurbished amp without balanced inputs was set by the company, allegedly that encompassed a commission, which I found odd since I never paid a commission on any of my equipment before.

Again, at the end of the day, it wasn’t a good experience for me personally. And I would just advise to do your homework and proceed with appropriate due diligence especially when buying anything custom. Apparently, these amps and associated refurbishment work depreciate quick and don't have a large resale market, so be prepared my fellow consumers.

My question is this. How did you come in contact with this "sales person"? Did you call sMC audio or did they reach out to you? Is this a third party "sales person" who has nothing to do with sMC? I really doubt that you spoke with Patrick or Steve. Please give more information for such a damning post.

@fishagedone

The problem here is that you basically dropped a turd in the room and then insinuated the stink is somehow related to a company that many of us have had nothing but excellent interactions with over many years. It only gets worse when you attribute your dissatisfaction to an unnamed "authorized agent", "somebody who apparently works with them", "authorized sales distribution channel" (whatever the heck that is), or a "a sales guy working with SMC audio" (which is total BS).

The fact is you are not a customer as you have not purchased anything from SMc Audio or even interacted with the two principals. Your impressions are based on interactions with an unnamed proxy and the substance of your dissatisfaction seems to be the price of an amplifier that you believe to be too high because it has been refurbished and doesn’t have balanced inputs. You clearly do not understand SMc Audio’s business model or products. To imply their pricing is not "fair" and that their products don't "stack up against market competition" (i.e., a couple of visible name brands you are familiar with), is absurd. Did you even listen to the amplifier?  I own a pair of their 650 wpc monoblocks because I like the way they sound in direct comparison to amplifiers I owned at and well above their price point. BTW, some of those "decades old chassis" are copper-plated steel, which you will not get from many (any?) other manufacturers. Sometimes, when you find yourself in a hole it is best to quit digging.

Here’s the problem — SMcAudio is only Steve and Patrick so whatever salesperson you spoke to does not work for SMcAudio as you imply.  

Maybe the sales agent I worked with is not a w2 employee, but apparently SMC was comfortable enough to provide pricing and sell through this person. 

Mitch, are you for real? Do you also go on Yelp and cry about everyone who didn’t love the food or service of every restaurant? Again, a decades old amplifier at $10.5k with no balanced inputs isn’t a screaming bargain to me, okay? If it’s so great, go buy it Mitch and post pictures of the amazing chassis and value. It’s available, so no excuses! Just don’t come crying again when you realize you could have got the same model for over half off.

All this talk about sales agents. Where the hell did you contact this person? Is that a big secret? You aren't doing your credibility any favors.

And I still don't understand why you are harping on the lack of balanced inputs. That's not the criteria by which high end amplifiers are judged.

Finally, the price you reference doesn't seem to be commensurate with prices on upgraded McCormack amps. I think someone tried to scam you and it sounds like you perceived it to be genuine. 

Full disclosure, I own an Smc GT-24 with all the bells and whistles, including a new chasis and  custom faceplate. It is a fantastic sounding amp and no, it doesn't have balanced inputs.

Ozzy,

Let me put it this way, when I asked Pat about how much it would cost to upgrade to balanced inputs and an external power supply, he stated that he could not discuss pricing with me and I had to go through this agent. That alone made me feel there was a lack of transparency in the transaction, and frankly, it makes me wonder why SMC would agree to that. 

I will agree with you that $10.5k was far beyond anything I’ve ever seen charged for this refurbished amp. I would hope SMC knows what their agents are charging and reign in any excessive pricing. That’s the purpose of this post, to make sure buyers are made aware this type of experience could happen to them. This is compounded by the lack of information on the products and the brand, as well as the lack of a credible dealer network to obtain firsthand information.

As far as balanced inputs, I have invested in good balanced cables and have terrible EMI problems, so it’s a must for me. I would expect this feature on any amp in the $10k range.

This is the first time I have ever heard of sMC having an agent. I bought my amp as a GT-20 back in July and when I decided I wanted to upgrade it, I picked up the phone and called Pat. We had several conversations and emails over the next few days about what I wanted and what they would do. He sent me an invoice and I shipped the amp out. Are you saying this process has drastically changed in the course of a few months?

I can't speak for SMC.  I can only relay my own personal experience as accurately as possible. 

@fishagedone

"If it’s so great, go buy it Mitch and post pictures of the amazing chassis and value."

I did just that. Beat out a pair of Lamm M1.2 Reference monoblocks and a pair of Clayton M300 Class A monoblocks in my system, all of which I owned at the same time. Pictures of my amps are on the home page of SMc Audio’s website, the black monoblocks.

To your other question, I don’t generally care what people like or don’t like but when I read about good people being maligned for silly reasons that seem to make no sense then, yes, I may challange that. You don’t want to pay the price, you don’t feel comfortable with refurbished equipment, you want balanced inputs, and you saw a similar amp advertised for less money so, sure, the SMc amp wasn’t for you, I get that. I also understand the frustration of dealing with a pushy sales person. However, what I don’t understand is why that should reflect so negatively on SMc Audio. You didn’t buy anything or lose any money so, in the absence of actual damages, your level of negativity seems disproportionate, IMO of course.

Mitch,

Fair enough. There’s more to this story that I really don’t think it’s worth anyone’s time to get into. Look if I’m the only bad experience out of 1000 transactions then I’m happy for our community. I hope that to be the case. And I hope my feedback can only go to improving and strengthening the audiophile market and experiences for everyone. I believe we should all speak out and give everyone a chance to express themselves as long as it’s based on factual information.

So Patrick referred you to an agent?  Why the hell would he do that???  Nothing about this seems right. 

Agree, fair enough.  I am sorry your experience wasn’t great.

If you ever have the opportunity, I suggest trying to hear one of their newer amplifier creations. Unfortunately, they don’t have a dealer network and don’t typically display at shows so, listening opportunities are mostly limited to whether you know somebody who owns their products.  Therefore, buying from them can require a bit of a leap of faith.

You should be more forthcoming about who this “agent” is. If you really want to warn the audiophile community, as you say you do, then that is the person of concern.  Not SMc audio.

Patrick didn’t refer me to the agent. The agent introduced me to Patrick and I spoke with Patrick about it.

Ozzy, you are mistaken. Smc audio ratified and approved the price and agency relationship with this person, so they do bear some responsibility for this experience frankly. If they want to come make a statement about it, they are welcome. I’ve already shared more than enough information that adequately apprises future buyers about this situation. If you’re not satisfied, that’s your problem. I don’t believe I need to dox people because you think I should.

Mitch, agree with your points. And thank you for the civil discussion.  

Patrick didn’t refer me to the agent. The agent introduced me to Patrick and I spoke with Patrick about it.
 

Your story is now contradicting itself   This is what you wrote before  

Let me put it this way, when I asked Pat about how much it would cost to upgrade to balanced inputs and an external power supply, he stated that he could not discuss pricing with me and I had to go through this agent.

You can’t even keep your story straight.  Stop blaming SMcAudio for some agent who quoted you an unfair price.

Soix, 

I see reading comprehension isn't your strong point so I'll repeat: the salesperson introduced me to Pat, but I spoke to both of them during this time period.  Are we clear now?

@soix, thanks for starting this chain of posts – I can’t believe how many responses it has generated.  Like you, I am a very happy owner of a rebuilt DNA-1, but a comment in one of the posts much earlier said that the on/off switch on the front panel only turns the blue light off, and leaves the rest of the amp on. Can you please confirm that this is true? I have been occasionally turning off the panel switch when lightning may be coming to my area, and assuming that the amp would be protected. If I need to actually unplug the amp, please let me know. 

@cheeg  I think it depends on what version of the upgrades you have.  Mine was done a couple years ago and my power switch is just a dummy light — not my favorite feature.  Should be pretty easy to tell if your power switch is active just by turning the amp off while music is playing.  Whether the music stops or not will give you your answer.  Patrick told me their newest upgrade uses a magnetic power switch so if you do an upgrade now you get an active power switch. 

FWIW, pmy monoblocks have no power switch at all, if they are plugged in then they are powered on. My SMc DAC has the magnetic switch.  For my preamp, I believe there is a power switch on the outboard power supply.

My DNA 0.5 has no power switch on the front panel either. It has a breaker on the side for powering on/off.

Well, I had a good conversation with Pat this morning and it appears it would be unfair to malign him or SMC audio over this incident. It looks like this was probably more the result of a miscommunication with a seldom-used outside sales person that deviated from his normal "direct-to-consumer" sales approach. He indicated that I could contact him directly and purchase from him directly from this point forward, which would probably avoid any future incidences. One thing I did learn is that it appears there is no shortage of support for SMC audio, and Pat does appear to be stand by his business.  Who knows, maybe there could be a SMC amplifier in my future after all.

@fishagedone 

Good on ya for clearing this up. As you can see, there is a lot of respect and support for the work Pat and Steve do, and for good reason. I’m glad we all have a little better perspective on what happened.

@soix thanks for the tip - can’t believe I didn’t think of that… 🙄  

This has been an interesting thread to say the least. It appears fishagedone’s experience was accurate. However, a bit vague in the beginning. I am so tired of reading Soix’s condescending and judgmental posts. @ram360j is another example in a long list of many. On the positive side, Steve stepped up and corrected S. Of course, after that, S had to save face and attack fishagedone. 

Unfortunately, a third party agent was the real culprit not SMC. Not to mention, fishagedone setting the record straight in his last post. In the end, it all worked out for fishagedone. He was able to establish a relationship with SMC without using a third party agent. That’s the real purpose of the forum. 

I’ve been a long time owner of CJ. In fact, I still have a fully functional DV-2b. I’m wondering if Steve designed this unit back in the day. CJ doesn’t have any information on the player. Unfortunately, it may become an anchor when it dies. 

@rubicon15  Hey, he was berating a reputable business unfairly and I called him out on it and I was right.  Sorry if that hurts your little feelings. 

Soix,

You didn’t call me out on anything and I didn’t appreciate your baseless and false attacks, or the tone of your ignorant posts. I share the same sentiment as Rubicon, your posts are tiring and generally uninformed. And, they don’t do anything productive or contributory to solve the actual issue. You just come across as a bitter, angry, judgmental, and condescending old man (which you probably are). I don’t know why you are, but you don’t need to spread your bad energy to innocent people on this forum .

The irony is you are doing more to deter people from buying into the brand when they see people like you are associated with it. 

@Soix I always find it helpful to ask clarifying questions before sticking my foot in my mouth… You certainly didn’t hurt my feelings. Obviously, I’m tired of reading your crap. Personally, I’d be embarrassed if I were you. Didn’t you announce you were leaving this forum some time ago. Hope that didn’t hurt your feelings.

Well, I had a good conversation with Pat this morning and it appears it would be unfair to malign him or SMC audio over this incident. It looks like this was probably more the result of a miscommunication with a seldom-used outside sales person that deviated from his normal "direct-to-consumer" sales approach.

@fishagedone Hey, all I did is call you out on something that just didn’t sound right That’s all so don’t make it more than that. As you’ve now admitted you were mistaken and that’s fine — it happens to all of us at one time or another My goal was not to belittle you at all but rather to challenge your account of events because on the surface they didn’t make sense given my experience with the company That’s it. As for @rubicon15 you’re basically a baby here and nothing you say means anything to me so don’t even bother.

I did not admit to any "mistake". There was a miscommunication that was subsequently clarified, and I don't see the need to assign blame or judgment on anyone since we've since corrected the issue.

Being irritating is not the same as being wrong.

Current owner of an SMC modified DNA-1 here. Works great to this day. 

@wturkey  Just be aware that if your amp has the original input board it’s very likely to fail at some point.  Hope yours holds on for a long time. 🤞

I have a DNA-225 that has a transformer hum, which (I think) is also seeping into the audio signal (i.e., coming through the speakers).  This model does not appear to be subject to the troubled, double-sided input board issue.  But, I recall reading somewhere that one maker of McCormack transformers from this time were particularly subject to hum; I can't find, or recall, which brand of transformer it was, although I think the brand name started with a 'C'.

A while ago, I spoke on the phone with Pat about my issue, and he recommended trying a better power cord, and checking for DC noise on my main line.  But, after trying a few different power cords (costing up to $900), and trying two different DC blocker devices, I still have hum.

My next step is to get the amp serviced and/or upgraded.  I'm able and willing to invest in this, but I wonder if a simple repair/replacement of the transformer makes more sense than a total upgrade.

Other power amps in my stable are:

- DIY clone First Watt Aleph J

- Butler Audio TDB 2250

- Symphonic Line RG1 MK3

- McCormack DNA-125 (still present, but lesser amount of hum)

I also have an Adcom GFA-555, and a Phase Linear PL-400 (with White Oak Audio upgrade), but these are really backups.

My current 'itch' is a CODA S5.5 pure Class A amp, so trying to weigh options.  Thanks in advance for advice.